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Comy 1
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2011.01.26 11:36:00 -
[1]
BEFORE YOU READ THIS WALL OF TEXT, I WANT TO EMPHASISE THAT THE INCURSION SANSHAS DEAL AND TANK OMNI DAMAGE. IF YOU FIT FOR TANKING EM/THERM ONLY YOU ARE GOING TO IE HORRIBLY.
All day yesterday, the hard working effort of a few were ruined by the mass. People with no clue on how to run an efficient fleet kept dying horribly to the sansha.
I will tell you all a big secret on how to successfully complete these sites, and get the full payout while doing so. It's called SYNERGY, FLEET COMPOSITION AND BASIC FLEET KNOWLEDGE.
Step 1:
Make a fleet with good synergy, CHOOSE EITHER SHIELD OR ARMOR, DON'T MIX. You won't be able to run a gang with mixed logistics efficiently.
Step 2:
Don't use terrible ships and fittings. Alot of you might never have been in a fleet environment with logistics before, but the big secret to survive is to remove all **** mods examplified, but not limited to:
Local repair Sensor booster/Signal amp CPU/Grid upgrades STABS Cargo expanders
and similar terrible modules.
YOU WANT RESISTS, A BIT OF BUFFER AND DAMAGE/TRACKING MODS.
Step 3:
Get a proper fleet composition. The exact type of ships is not important, but rather the pressence of their role.
To use the fleet we used for Vanguard sites as an example that you might want to follow, think in the lines of:
3 Guardians 4 Abaddons 1 Dual web Loki 1 Random BC (in our case hurricane) 1 Random HAC (in our case zealot)
Feel free to swap out the exact ships to ones that fits your skills, but keep the main idea with you. 3 Guardians is what we felt comfortable with to keep everyone alive, regardles of the risk of one of our logis being jammed.
The abaddon is an awesome ship due to pulse lasers high tracking, awesome laser crystals and most importantly, HIGH RESISTS.
The Loki was probably the most important ship of them all in our fleet. There will be alot of frigs and cruisers in the sites, and without the webs the large guns from the battleships wont be able to track them. If you don't have access to a Loki pilot, going for a Huginn/Rapier or even equip a pair of HACs/BCs with propulsion mods and webs will do the trick.
Step 4:
USE YOUR BROADCAST KEYS, THEY ARE IN THE GAME FOR A REASON!
If you are one of the guys that scream on voice comms, or spam fleet chat with something similar to: "OMFG HALP IM DYIN REP FFS REP ME PLZ!1+!º+!" you are gonna die horribly. If you didn't know it already, you are not the center of the universe and people will have no clue about who to rep. 1 click on your broadcast button will solve this problem, and the logistics can easilly lock you to assisst with reps.
As a final note.
Feel free to experiment and optimize your fleet with whatever pimp setups you like. I have no doubt in mind a fleet of t3 ships and Nightmares will steamroll all the sites, I just didn't feel like testing it on day 1. Don't be bad and fit your ship like a hippie thinking stabs and local rep will save you. Replacing usefull resist mods in the low will end up with you losing a ship.
TL;DR
STOP BEING TERRIBLE
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Asaface
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Posted - 2011.01.26 11:47:00 -
[2]
I can confirm everything Comy says is correct. So many noobs ruining the efforts of use people who know what to do.
We started fleeting and completing incursion sites at 97% penatlies, when we disbanded they were down to 42%
We log back on after DT and find its back to 100%
Its not that much of a problem becuase it means we have more sites to farm today
However at this rate no incursions will ever be completed by anyone and sansha will siege the systems they affect for a week each time
PS - Good post Comy
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Von Tease
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Posted - 2011.01.26 11:50:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Von Tease on 26/01/2011 11:52:21 To a point I agree with you, however a few points of my own
- BS = Fail, their Sig radius is too high and on waves where there are bombers battleships go pop before they can be repped. Can get better performance for cheap out of a cruiser - PUG can be ****, but if you fit a useful ship, Command Ship, Guardian, or Hac you will be swamped with requests to join groups. My general rule currently is only fly with people that are willing to field ships almost as expensive as my own. For example I would not take my Command ship with a large amount of T1 frigs but HAC groups no problems. Just make sure the ship value of the gang is similar to your own. Also make sure there are NO UNKNOWN frig or destroyer flyers in group. - Payouts are not bad, I think with a balanced group you could clear 3-4 sites an hour (5-10man)
Only thing I am slightly worried about is getting the groups for the higher level sites but just from yesterday i now have 4-5 people on my contacts list to form up groups with.
Also impressed by PUG ability to spider tank off from the start.
If people are having problems getting in to groups start training logistics
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.26 11:57:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Comy 1 TL;DR
STOP BEING TERRIBLE
For all the bad things people say about sov 0.0 teaching you nothing, at very least they can generally fit their ships like non-******s and know what the broadcast button is. I never thought I'd have to teach people who have been playing the game for years what the fleet window was, how to buffer tank, what a primary is, but I did, and I realize now just how insulated a lot of the Empire carebears have been all this time.
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Comy 1
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2011.01.26 11:57:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Von Tease Edited by: Von Tease on 26/01/2011 11:52:21 - BS = Fail, their Sig radius is too high and on waves where there are bombers battleships go pop before they can be repped. Can get better performance for cheap out of a cruiser
I really don't agree with you on this one. A battleship is something most people can use, compared to t2 cruiser/bc size ships. And even with their large sig radius we kept ships without a resist bonus (read typhoon) alive without breaking a sweat with our 3 guardians.
Worth to note is that none of our combat ships were equipped with remote rep modules, it was all handeled by the 3 logistics.
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Floydd Heywood
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Posted - 2011.01.26 12:18:00 -
[6]
So my assumptions/hopes were right about why so many players died and keep dying (can't try it myself before the weekend)
We are now a quite experienced wormhole gang with several logistics and pvp experience, so I guess we will do well enough.
And I'm glad to hear that battleships are suitable because I've maxed my skills in that area. The nice thing about battleships is that you don't have to worry about webs because you don't try to escape the full damage in the first place. Just tank it all. After the first reports I was worried though that it wouldn't be possible with the Sanshas.
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Crovax Parianic
New Eden Recon Force Beyond-Control
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Posted - 2011.01.26 12:39:00 -
[7]
All this is exactly the reason I don't bother with Incursions. Only thing that would me get going is a well organized corp that is on comms and has the things you described.
Everytime I hear about PUGS I just hear exploding ships.
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Doddy
Burning Vendetta
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Posted - 2011.01.26 12:58:00 -
[8]
While everything Comy says is true to an extent, you really don't need to all fly expensive ships. I was in a gang of 10 doing vanguard sites that included 2 t1 cruisers and a frig and got through the sites without anyone dieing. So long as people fit resists for the logis to keep up and know how to broadcast its not too hard. Of course 4 guardian supported abaddons would have done it a bit faster
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Lakut
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:03:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Doddy While everything Comy says is true to an extent, you really don't need to all fly expensive ships. I was in a gang of 10 doing vanguard sites that included 2 t1 cruisers and a frig and got through the sites without anyone dieing. So long as people fit resists for the logis to keep up and know how to broadcast its not too hard. Of course 4 guardian supported abaddons would have done it a bit faster
4 Guardians for the Vanguard sites was way overkill anyway.
Also, another protip: Gang Boosters that aren't on grid don't count towards the site's gang size limit. So if you have a spare gangbonus T3/CS alt to sit afk on a safespot, use it without lowering rewards. Most importantly, the issue is that this is already my signature. ---------- You get a wonderful view from the point of no return. |
Unkn0wn
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Doddy While everything Comy says is true to an extent, you really don't need to all fly expensive ships. I was in a gang of 10 doing vanguard sites that included 2 t1 cruisers and a frig and got through the sites without anyone dieing. So long as people fit resists for the logis to keep up and know how to broadcast its not too hard. Of course 4 guardian supported abaddons would have done it a bit faster
I have done a few groups with Frigs, they are fine, but a valid point is, if you are flying an expensive ship, only fly with other expensive ships do not allow T1 in a group that has expensive t2 in. I am not going to risk a HAC in a group with T1 Frigs in. however for a full Hac gang, I will bring out a command ship with 300k EHP.
The point about BS, on Warp ins they are most vulnerable, as they can be alpha(ed) also on some sites we had 6 stealth bombers all firing at one battleship, it went pop when all 6 bombs landed. If he had a better buffer might have been fine, point being BS take lots of damage and need repping a lot in turn draining repping cycles from the group. Perfer Smaller faster ships that take less damage, and dont force perm RR on them.
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Comy 1
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Doddy While everything Comy says is true to an extent, you really don't need to all fly expensive ships. I was in a gang of 10 doing vanguard sites that included 2 t1 cruisers and a frig and got through the sites without anyone dieing. So long as people fit resists for the logis to keep up and know how to broadcast its not too hard. Of course 4 guardian supported abaddons would have done it a bit faster
Where did I ever say you need all expensive ships?
I took our setup as an example, and specifically stating that the ships are interchangable as long as you have some type of synergy in the gang. And while I appreciate that it actually is possible to bring frigs and t1 cruisers, keep in mind that you want to make it all profitable. If you clear the sites way too slow, you might aswell run lvl 4 missions since that will probably be more profitable.
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Crimson Mash
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:20:00 -
[12]
What about a RR Drake only gang?
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GyokZoli
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Unkn0wn
Originally by: Doddy While everything Comy says is true to an extent, you really don't need to all fly expensive ships. I was in a gang of 10 doing vanguard sites that included 2 t1 cruisers and a frig and got through the sites without anyone dieing. So long as people fit resists for the logis to keep up and know how to broadcast its not too hard. Of course 4 guardian supported abaddons would have done it a bit faster
I have done a few groups with Frigs, they are fine, but a valid point is, if you are flying an expensive ship, only fly with other expensive ships do not allow T1 in a group that has expensive t2 in. I am not going to risk a HAC in a group with T1 Frigs in. however for a full Hac gang, I will bring out a command ship with 300k EHP.
The point about BS, on Warp ins they are most vulnerable, as they can be alpha(ed) also on some sites we had 6 stealth bombers all firing at one battleship, it went pop when all 6 bombs landed. If he had a better buffer might have been fine, point being BS take lots of damage and need repping a lot in turn draining repping cycles from the group. Perfer Smaller faster ships that take less damage, and dont force perm RR on them.
Wait... these new sansha uses stealth bombers?? Or I'm missing something?
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Comy 1
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:31:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Comy 1 on 26/01/2011 13:33:05
Originally by: GyokZoli Wait... these new sansha uses stealth bombers?? Or I'm missing something?
They have frigs using torpedoes, not bombs.
Originally by: Crimson Mash What about a RR Drake only gang?
I havent tested it myself, but try slapping in a couple of basilisks together with the drakes? Shouldn't be impossible, even though it might not be optimal. The drakes themselves will probably not be able to keep eachother alive, considering fitting problems for a large shield transfer module and the drakes capacitor being **** in general.
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Mithrasith
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:33:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Crovax Parianic All this is exactly the reason I don't bother with Incursions. Only thing that would me get going is a well organized corp that is on comms and has the things you described.
Everytime I hear about PUGS I just hear exploding ships.
This. Im not going to be the suicide philanthropist attempting to boost the fleet with my expensive Command ships, nor donating other expensive T3 ships/logistics so that I can get dragged down by a bunch of folks that have no idea what it is like to fly in a fleet.
And this reason is percisely why incursions will either be painful for a very long time, or their implementation will fail in its current state.
It sounds like no one was even designated as target caller for the fleet and/or fleet commander/wing commander.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: GyokZoli Wait... these new sansha uses stealth bombers?? Or I'm missing something?
More or lessà
More on topic, though: As for surviving the warp-in. I was thinking about outfitting a Damnation that was basically your average support brick (3+ armour links, DC, EANMs, plates) but with the mids full of ewar of various kinds. (Full, in this case meaning three of them, the fourth slot is for a cap booster.)
Since they're using tweaked sleeper AI, I'm guessing that the Sansha will hate ewar just as much as their w-space brethren. Throw in a TP a TD and something else (maybe some good old ECM, just to be annoying ù I don't think we know their approximate sensor strength yet and what the chances will be for a non-bonused ship) and that Damnation should be able to make every rat on the grid hate his guts and go after it quite a lot. The idea is that nice buffer + nice resists + aggro-grabbing modules = obvious RR target that keeps the Sansha occupied and generally just wreck havoc with their target preference lists.
Could anyone who's done a few sites comment on this notion? Crap or worth-while? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Jonni Favorite
Red Slice Enterprise The Company LLC
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:44:00 -
[17]
Excellent post!
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Mithrasith
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: GyokZoli Wait... these new sansha uses stealth bombers?? Or I'm missing something?
More or lessà
More on topic, though: As for surviving the warp-in. I was thinking about outfitting a Damnation that was basically your average support brick (3+ armour links, DC, EANMs, plates) but with the mids full of ewar of various kinds. (Full, in this case meaning three of them, the fourth slot is for a cap booster.)
Since they're using tweaked sleeper AI, I'm guessing that the Sansha will hate ewar just as much as their w-space brethren. Throw in a TP a TD and something else (maybe some good old ECM, just to be annoying ù I don't think we know their approximate sensor strength yet and what the chances will be for a non-bonused ship) and that Damnation should be able to make every rat on the grid hate his guts and go after it quite a lot. The idea is that nice buffer + nice resists + aggro-grabbing modules = obvious RR target that keeps the Sansha occupied and generally just wreck havoc with their target preference lists.
Could anyone who's done a few sites comment on this notion? Crap or worth-while?
I was thinking Damnation as well for any armor gangs, Claymore/Sleipnir for any shield gangs.
You would definately need 2-3 Guardians repping you however (+mindlink ftw)
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:05:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mithrasith I was thinking Damnation as well for any armor gangs, Claymore/Sleipnir for any shield gangs.
You would definately need 2-3 Guardians repping you however (+mindlink ftw)
Sure, I had no intention of leaving out the logis. The idea is rather to provide a very obvious target for the Sansha to go after (hence the irritant ewar) to make life easier on the logi pilots, since they'll spend most of their time repping that single ship.
The key question is, though, whether the Sansha will react to that ewar the way I'm assuming (which I'm assuming mostly on the basis of what I've seen Sleepers do), or if they'll notice that it does fsck-all damage and just blow up something that is actually dangerous to themà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Mithrasith
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:10:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Mithrasith on 26/01/2011 14:10:52
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Mithrasith I was thinking Damnation as well for any armor gangs, Claymore/Sleipnir for any shield gangs.
You would definately need 2-3 Guardians repping you however (+mindlink ftw)
Sure, I had no intention of leaving out the logis. The idea is rather to provide a very obvious target for the Sansha to go after (hence the irritant ewar) to make life easier on the logi pilots, since they'll spend most of their time repping that single ship.
The key question is, though, whether the Sansha will react to that ewar the way I'm assuming (which I'm assuming mostly on the basis of what I've seen Sleepers do), or if they'll notice that it does fsck-all damage and just blow up something that is actually dangerous to themà
From the reports ive heard, it certainly seems that Logi's are higher on the priority list than CS's (with CS's being a close competitor). It doesnt really seem to go by mods, but rather by ship type (Im no expert at the incursion sites however - havent even ventured in yet)
Im thinking that any Logi's will have to have sensor boosters for quicker lock time in order to get e/o locked up ASAP and start the repping. Just my 2 cents however.
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Comy 1
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Mithrasith Im thinking that any Logi's will have to have sensor boosters for quicker lock time in order to get e/o locked up ASAP and start the repping. Just my 2 cents however.
Nonono, you want your afterburner and ECCM in the mids of a guardian. Please don't even consider a sensor booster.
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I Noob
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:14:00 -
[22]
great posts.
i missed the first day but i want to try incursions tonight (well, my eveneming anyways ;))
I wanted to try the most easy and smallest incursion sites. I believe 5 man fleets?
How hard are those? does this mean you need small ships frigates and so to complete or does this mean just a small fleet?
so still 2 logi's cruisers/bs, ewar/webber/speed/hacker and 2 dps ships BS/HAC?
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Fibby Sunhawk
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:15:00 -
[23]
I for one enjoyed the great ball of fire that was Colelie yesterday. Never seen so many wrecks in a single place. I figured I could get into the site in my pod without getting aggro, so I sat at jump in and watched people trying to clear the site. I couldn't believe that some people actually threw in faction/pirate battleships and t3 hulls. I almost wanted to cry when I saw a Machariel getting blown up within seconds after landing.
People really need advice like this, good job on posting it.
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Mithrasith
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Comy 1
Originally by: Mithrasith Im thinking that any Logi's will have to have sensor boosters for quicker lock time in order to get e/o locked up ASAP and start the repping. Just my 2 cents however.
Nonono, you want your afterburner and ECCM in the mids of a guardian. Please don't even consider a sensor booster.
So they jam too? Nice....in that case yes ECCM would be better.
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bgummer
Gallente Malicious Destruction
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:22:00 -
[25]
i agree with most everything you said here, except i would recomend you hve everyone in teh fleet add tags to your overview, then have the FC tag targets. tags stay on the target till its dead or you change it. the broadcast is gone in like a min, and sometimes (well mabe more often than sometiems) your gona have to rebroadcast.
Anything worth doing, is worth over doing. |
Comy 1
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: bgummer i agree with most everything you said here, except i would recomend you hve everyone in teh fleet add tags to your overview, then have the FC tag targets. tags stay on the target till its dead or you change it. the broadcast is gone in like a min, and sometimes (well mabe more often than sometiems) your gona have to rebroadcast.
That's what broadcast history is for :)
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I Noob
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: I Noob great posts.
i missed the first day but i want to try incursions tonight (well, my eveneming anyways ;))
I wanted to try the most easy and smallest incursion sites. I believe 5 man fleets?
How hard are those? does this mean you need small ships frigates and so to complete or does this mean just a small fleet?
so still 2 logi's cruisers/bs, ewar/webber/speed/hacker and 2 dps ships BS/HAC?
No one??? :(
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Mad Yojik
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:50:00 -
[28]
Btw I'm curious - do Caldari HACs cut here,or just Min and Amarr (I know thare is saying "Caldari ships suck", but these are only ships of that sort I'll be able to fly soon)
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Comy 1
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:51:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Comy 1 on 26/01/2011 14:56:23
Originally by: I Noob great posts.
i missed the first day but i want to try incursions tonight (well, my eveneming anyways ;))
I wanted to try the most easy and smallest incursion sites. I believe 5 man fleets?
How hard are those? does this mean you need small ships frigates and so to complete or does this mean just a small fleet?
so still 2 logi's cruisers/bs, ewar/webber/speed/hacker and 2 dps ships BS/HAC?
I haven't tried the scout sites myself, but I can't imageine that a group of 2 logi and 3 BC would have any problems what so ever doing it. It could probably work with 2 domis acting as logistics aswell in the easiest site (or 1 logi + 1 domi or w/e you can get together). The only type of ewar I would recommend as nessecary is webs.
As I keep saying, keep in mind that you want synergy. With that said I cant imagine the scout sites being especially hard as long as you work together.
Originally by: Mad Yojik Btw I'm curious - do Caldari HACs cut here,or just Min and Amarr (I know thare is saying "Caldari ships suck", but these are only ships of that sort I'll be able to fly soon)
The cerb sure is a nice ship when it comes to damage output, but I'm not sure about it's tanking abilities. Mainly because I never fly them myself. Eagle I have no comments on either. But I am confident that Caldari got other ships that will cut it for sure, like the nighthawk (just an example). Even though I normally don't like pure EFT warrioring compared to actually testing things for yourself, set up a cerb and compare it to a zealot and see how your resists and buffer looks like. It might work.
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Floydd Heywood
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Posted - 2011.01.26 15:30:00 -
[30]
What about range? I've heard corpmates report that some Sanshas stay 120+ km away. Are those in every site? How many? Do you suggest a mix of long-range and short-range fits for the fleet? Or is one ship with beams/arty enough?
I never had much use for beams until now, but thought about fitting an Armageddon with Beam Lasers for this.
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