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IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
238
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:24:00 -
[181] - Quote
Lord BryanII wrote:over and over
7/10 because you got me good. This bit was just too obvious, up until this point it was believably stupid, but obvious troll. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
575
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:34:00 -
[182] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Lord BryanII wrote:If Minimatar did not have their geography advantage and did not get that super boost that they did from the goons, would it be fair to say that the Amarr/Minimatar war would be much closer than it is now? If the answer is yes, then would we still be talking about farmers as much as we are now?
I don't think farmers are the issue tbh The Geography is an issue, but it is not insurmountable. As was clearly demonstrated, Nulli moved into Metro and quickly conquered the vast majority of it. It just takes some dedication to make the move and commit. There aren't a lot of Amarr groups who are interested in doing that. Goons did nothing except take advantage of existing circumstances in order to make a lot of money and subsequently get it confiscated by CCP.
Geography is not really an issue. The goon boost was not the issue.
The main problem is that it is a pve/farm mechanic. Where you win by hiding from the enemy while you do plexes. This is 90% of the problem.
Secondary problems that take up the other 10% of the problem were:
1) The imbalance in rats especially before the ewar removal. Minmatar was always the race with the easiest rats for missions and plexes. This helped them get more players and helped the plex directly. amarr was fw on hard mode Minmatar was easy mode. Don't believe just trying each sides missions (the main source of fw income before inferno) solo in a stealth bomber. They had a huge lead going into inferno. This was in part due to the extreme rat imbalance. Do you want to make easy isk doing missions or do you want it to be hard? If you wanted it easy then you joined minmatar and many people did. They would either leave amarr for minmatar or go over to caldari. Amarr has always been the the miltiia with the fewest numbers and its no mystery why.
2) It was also just more or less arbitrary luck. There were probably about 10 players total who were really plexing for the year before inferno was announced because it was meant nothing. A single minmatar player had more vp than any minmatar corp or alliance going into inferno. No one really cared about it. The product of a system no one cares about is random.
3) In combination with the above Amarr took the biggest hit it ever took, due to the station lock outs. Basically vets had to spend all of our time leading up to inferno moving our stuff out of the warzone. Inferno brought on a change that meant it took 5xs as much plexing to flip a system. So this lead up time was important. Most of the fw vets like myself had billions in assets thoughout the metro and we had to spend what ever eve time we had moving it. In combination with 1 and 2 the lockouts was the biggest difficulty the amarr ever had to deal with.
Once everyone saw Minmatar could hit tier 5 well everyone started getting alts to run the plexes. The sheer volume of alts is not something amarr can touch.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Eric Deloitte
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
7
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Posted - 2012.08.20 15:47:00 -
[183] - Quote
I'm looking forward to the day that Amarr Minmatar alts are attacked by Minmatar Amarr alts, who then call on their Amarrian mains for support these are then attacked by minmatar mains and nobody has a clue who is attacking who |
Crosi Wesdo
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
352
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:50:00 -
[184] - Quote
Lord BryanII wrote:IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Lord BryanII wrote:If Minimatar did not have their geography advantage and did not get that super boost that they did from the goons, would it be fair to say that the Amarr/Minimatar war would be much closer than it is now? If the answer is yes, then would we still be talking about farmers as much as we are now?
I don't think farmers are the issue tbh Goonswarm did nothing, they probably never even captured a single plex, all they did was exploit a load of LP for themselves, which probably hurt the minmatar as it meant our LP items were less valuable. I hope you are really not this naive. Them making millions and millions of LP is what helped Minimatar quickly and easily upgrade their systems to T5 over and over. People started seeing Minimatar getting rich and joined up on the Minmatar side. I personally know about 15-20 people that joined Minimatar because of this And regarding LP items being less valuable, have you ever heard of stockpiling them until the market improves?
This is ******* stupid. You do realise that at one point there were 4 gallente pilots and alts who were considering upgrading our entire battlefield to level 5's to hit tier 4. The amount of LP required to upgrade the matar warzone is only 2/3 of what we, as 4 people were considering investing. Upgrading to the maximum availalbe tier requires very few LP in the grand scheme of things, so yes, goon input was negligible. Minmatar would have happily and easily upgraded those systems on a whim had they wanted to. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
239
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:01:00 -
[185] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Minmatar would have happily and easily upgraded those systems on a whim had they wanted to.
and more to the point we have, about 5 times since without any goon help.
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Lord BryanII
6
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Posted - 2012.08.20 16:20:00 -
[186] - Quote
Goons still had tons of LP left over from their exploit that they slowly got rid of. If it is so easy to do, then why did it take 13 hours to hit your last T5? You should hit T5 pretty easy this time however since it's been weeks since your last push but we'll see how easy it is after that |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
231
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:29:00 -
[187] - Quote
Cearain wrote:The main problem is that it is a pve/farm mechanic. Where you win by hiding from the enemy while you do plexes. This is 90% of the problem.
It is a pve/farm mechanic for everyone - for all four militias. The rest of your post amounts to "here are some historical reasons that things turned out this way for the Amarr", with the suggestion being that a bad start + simple momentum is why things are still bad.
So CCP looks at this and sees, OK, this mechanic seems to be working fine for 3/4 militias, and then this last militia is claiming that it doesn't work in the same breath as they complain about a lot of historical baggage. The obvious solution to this problem: do nothing. Maybe add some of those UI improvements they talked about in the CSM minutes. To let some time pass by is a sufficient response to the effects of "arbitrary luck at the time of the patch" and "imbalance before EWAR removal" on the warzone. And if the only problem with station lockout is that it had leading-up-to-Inferno affects, there's certainly no reason to change it now. Where are the present day downsides of station-lockout?
So I'd rather CCP look at this summary:
Pinky Feldman wrote:I think the biggest issue is the tiering of the rewards and how they scale. When theres a wave of immersion killing realization across your militia that you would be stupid not to farm Tier 5 while you can, versus going out of your way to push tier 2-3 at best on your own side, its hard for your side to keep taking FW seriously. It definitely kills a lot of the PVP immersion and makes things feel very RvB-esque.
Speak of a "wave of immersion killing realization across your militia" due to the warzone control mechanic, and you suggest that the mechanic should be reexamined - while also answering those who speak of the lack of Amarrian enthusiasm as if that were the horse rather than the cart.
Lord BryanII wrote:blah blah blah farmers are people too
I spent some time chasing three plex farmers away from three plexes in Sahtogas the other day. I'd warp to one, chase the guy off, warp to the next, chase him off, warp back, try to catch the first guy, warp to the third plex, repeat, repeat, repeat with close calls, repeat after refittings. After at least thirty minutes, I had the brief satisfaction of having chased all three farmers out of this one system. Of course, they came back. It was about as fun as cancer. This isn't war, this is swatting at flies on rotting meat. It doesn't need "swat harder!", "get more people doing the swatting!", "stay in this one system - don't roam around trying to have fun!" as solutions. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
284
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:30:00 -
[188] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:Lord BryanII wrote:If Minimatar did not have their geography advantage and did not get that super boost that they did from the goons, would it be fair to say that the Amarr/Minimatar war would be much closer than it is now? If the answer is yes, then would we still be talking about farmers as much as we are now?
I don't think farmers are the issue tbh The Geography is an issue, but it is not insurmountable. As was clearly demonstrated, Nulli moved into Metro and quickly conquered the vast majority of it. It just takes some dedication to make the move and commit. There aren't a lot of Amarr groups who are interested in doing that. Goons did nothing except take advantage of existing circumstances in order to make a lot of money and subsequently get it confiscated by CCP. Geography is not really an issue. The goon boost was not the issue. The main problem is that it is a pve/farm mechanic. Where you win by hiding from the enemy while you do plexes. This is 90% of the problem. Secondary problems that take up the other 10% of the problem were: 1) The imbalance in rats especially before the ewar removal. Minmatar was always the race with the easiest rats for missions and plexes. This helped them get more players and helped the plex directly. amarr was fw on hard mode Minmatar was easy mode. Don't believe just trying each sides missions (the main source of fw income before inferno) solo in a stealth bomber. They had a huge lead going into inferno. This was in part due to the extreme rat imbalance. Do you want to make easy isk doing missions or do you want it to be hard? If you wanted it easy then you joined minmatar and many people did. They would either leave amarr for minmatar or go over to caldari. Amarr has always been the the miltiia with the fewest numbers and its no mystery why. 2) It was also just more or less arbitrary luck. There were probably about 10 players total who were really plexing for the year before inferno was announced because it was meant nothing. A single minmatar player had more vp than any minmatar corp or alliance going into inferno. No one really cared about it. The product of a system no one cares about is random. 3) In combination with the above Amarr took the biggest hit it ever took, due to the station lock outs. Basically vets had to spend all of our time leading up to inferno moving our stuff out of the warzone. Inferno brought on a change that meant it took 5xs as much plexing to flip a system. So this lead up time was important. Most of the fw vets like myself had billions in assets thoughout the metro and we had to spend what ever eve time we had moving it. In combination with 1 and 2 the lockouts was the biggest difficulty the amarr ever had to deal with. Once everyone saw Minmatar could hit tier 5 well everyone started getting alts to run the plexes. The sheer volume of alts is not something amarr can touch.
The problem is was that there was always tons of interlinking factors that you can't really simplify into a single issue. For example, Metro's geography is terrible, leading to to multiple issues being that historically most fighting has taken place in Amarr/Minmatar so any reason to base out of there would purely end up in PVE with little PVP in addition to it being extremely easily defensible and cut off from the warzone with multiple dead end pipes.
The problem is, prior to Inferno, many things in FW that had an impact on the ability to push warzone control post-Inferno were never really destruction tested in any meaningful way since no one cared. I would argue that there are probably certain situations that could end up be potentially morale crushing for the Minmatar in the same way that the Amarr are facing now, but whether or not we'll ever experience those to identify them as being an issue is something to be seen.
People need to get over themselves and focus on the future rather than focus on the past and current state of things. The Minmatar need to realize that among the Amarr's complaints there are many valid points and the Amarr need to get over the fact that the Minmatar put themselves in a great position pre-Inferno that they've done an excellent job of maintaining.
We've got little time left before the Winter expansion hits, which will probably be our last iteration regarding FW mechanics. I think we have enough historical data and have spent enough time discussion whats wrong. Its time to move the conversation onto how to fix things.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
121
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:35:00 -
[189] - Quote
Whenever I finish reading a whinepost by Pinky, I read his signature, and I can't help but wonder if that guy ever has to urinate. Rabble Rabble!! Don't mind me. I just enjoy crapping all over the forums and laughing at the people who take it too seriously. |
Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
524
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:42:00 -
[190] - Quote
"My flanks are turned; my center is crushed. The conditions are perfect. I shall attack."
- General Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
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Capitol One
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
93
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:46:00 -
[191] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Whenever I finish reading a whinepost by Pinky, I read his signature, and I can't help but wonder if that guy ever has to urinate.
His post was actually quite constructive, and I applaud him for it.
You are the same old troll however :) |
Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
87
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:50:00 -
[192] - Quote
The fleet that performed the heavy lifting of offensive plexing Kour and Kam varied between 20 and 55 for the 12+ hours each day it was going. At this time we could have been forced out, or combated at any time. But for almost the entirety of the weekend we were unopposed, and were able to create a large time zone coverage of the 'front'. I assure you we were not gunless AFK plexing alts that 'took' your stations.
I understand some of you don't like orbiting buttons. I don't blame you, its not particularity satisfying. But I think some/many of the Amarrian side forgot one simple thing. For a long time, even before their was a LP reward for doing so, many minmatar plexed and desired to 'capture' systems. Those guys never left minmatar militia. I understand Amarr have had or still has some competent PvP'ers (Maud taught me to make a BM RIGHT on top of auga 3rd and bunches of insta-undock BMs) that use the FW wardec as a means to PvP with, not as a basis or reason to fight other players.
The issue came when the 'sov' that really had no impact before, started having an impact. Objectives few cared about before, started to matter. If you agree with the changes, does not matter. Both sides were subject to the same restrictions. The end result came about because minmatar kept caring about the 'sov', and only received more support once it actually mattered.
When you subject yourself to a game mechanic where their are consequences to not 'playing the objective', you either play to the new objective, or you go find a new mechanic to play with. You can downplay it, ignore it, or belittle those that play to it, all you want. In the end, it will have its consequences.
The ending bellows came when Amarrians proudly declared how they were still winning because they had decided to enumerate themselves with the number of 'gunless plex alts' that they so vehemently blamed for their initial downturn. Hastening their own 'defeat' and setting the Minmatar 'victory' on the backs of the very alts they endorsed and created. Still others decided to take the 'high' ground of belittling those that played the game mechanic, or did that and meta-gamed it.
I have made perhaps 300mil isk prior to the changes from FW. Since I've made perhaps about 700mil. But I've made billions from non-FW sources prior. So I have no pity for "I have no isk faucet, how can i beat you!" excuses. The only excuse I can see is perhaps the FW map being favorable for minmatar, but I never saw a "300" situation at Eszure/Hof. Only fleets that wanted the 'good ol days' of PvP for PvP's sake after changes made objective PvP the new game. PvP for PvP's sake is fine. But if the mechanic changes, you should as well.
The Amarirans defeated themselves.
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FlyingSpoonyBadger
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:53:00 -
[193] - Quote
Mystical Might wrote:Lord Morgo wrote:At the risk of sounding serious for a second, imagine CCP in their infinite wizdom release an "improved" mechanic for Nullsec:
- Rats in 0.0 no longer give bounty drops or sec increases.
- Players have to run sanctums for 24-48 hrs before SBU's become anchorable.
- All bounties payable will be held in the Ihub and released once the system has changed hands.
- Each player is taxed on the bounties accrued for each system held by their alliance.
Sounds fun? Not to me. Fix this rubbish CCP. This.
+1
This need fixing, the old FW was broken and the new FW is still broken, just in a different way. FW objectives should result in combat not alts in dual stabbed incursi reaping big rewards for zero risk.
Systems should be flipped by missions that only allow set size ships entry and the opposing militia should get some sort of watchlist showing where the enemy are attacking e.g. where these missions are being run or something like this, anything really that results in fights as that is what FW is supposed to be all about. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
121
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:53:00 -
[194] - Quote
Ezra Tair wrote:But for almost the entirety of the weekend we were unopposed,
No no, I'm pretty sure Lost Obsession and TMFED undock all the time.
Rabble Rabble!! Don't mind me. I just enjoy crapping all over the forums and laughing at the people who take it too seriously. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
575
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:57:00 -
[195] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Cearain wrote:The main problem is that it is a pve/farm mechanic. Where you win by hiding from the enemy while you do plexes. This is 90% of the problem. It is a pve/farm mechanic for everyone - for all four militias. The rest of your post amounts to "here are some historical reasons that things turned out this way for the Amarr", with the suggestion being that a bad start + simple momentum is why things are still bad. So CCP looks at this and sees, OK, this mechanic seems to be working fine for 3/4 militias, and then this last militia is claiming that it doesn't work in the same breath as they complain about a lot of historical baggage. The obvious solution to this problem: do nothing. Maybe add some of those UI improvements they talked about in the CSM minutes. To let some time pass by is a sufficient response to the effects of "arbitrary luck at the time of the patch" and "imbalance before EWAR removal" on the warzone. And if the only problem with station lockout is that it had leading-up-to-Inferno affects, there's certainly no reason to change it now. Where are the present day downsides of station-lockout?
The downsides of station lockouts is that it reduces the amount of pvp we could get if we could stay in the warzone and keep fighting instead of having to jump 6 jumps to repair armor damage. Its stupid for several other reasons as well including forcing smart corps to base outside the war zone or be saddled with defensive plexing.
But as for the rest, I am just trying to post what I think the problems are. And they are what they are. I think the amarr could hit tier 5. We were on our way there and if nulli would have just let us finish the work we would have done it. I'm fine with the tier system. People who think that is the problem are simply mistaken.
Kuehnelt wrote:So I'd rather CCP look at this summary: Pinky Feldman wrote:I think the biggest issue is the tiering of the rewards and how they scale. When theres a wave of immersion killing realization across your militia that you would be stupid not to farm Tier 5 while you can, versus going out of your way to push tier 2-3 at best on your own side, its hard for your side to keep taking FW seriously. It definitely kills a lot of the PVP immersion and makes things feel very RvB-esque. Speak of a "wave of immersion killing realization across your militia" due to the warzone control mechanic, and you suggest that the mechanic should be reexamined - while also answering those who speak of the lack of Amarrian enthusiasm as if that were the horse rather than the cart.
The problem is that you get the tiers by pve. That is what kills the "pvp immersion." Pvp really has nothing to do with winning the occupancy war. It never has.
Even before infernos tiers occupancy was a pve game. Tiers didn't cause this problem. It existed before tiers.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
88
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:57:00 -
[196] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Ezra Tair wrote:But for almost the entirety of the weekend we were unopposed,
No no, I'm pretty sure Lost Obsession and TMFED undock all the time.
Well, no one is forcing them to fleet with others and fight for objectives, but I'm sure they were at a pos somewhere. |
FlyingSpoonyBadger
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:05:00 -
[197] - Quote
The only excuse I can see is perhaps the FW map being favorable for minmatar, but I never saw a "300" situation at Eszure/Hof. Only fleets that wanted the 'good ol days' of PvP for PvP's sake after changes made objective PvP the new game. PvP for PvP's sake is fine. But if the mechanic changes, you should as well.
The Amarirans defeated themselves.
The reason you didn't see a "300" situation in Eszur/Hof is bcuase space doesnt work like that and lets face it you can always travel via amamake.
Also there were many solid Amarrian plexers in the field that flipped systems prior to the changes, Auga, Kourm, Dal, Vard, Arzad all being hotly contested areas for literally years prior to this iteration. Ok the minmamtar militia was always a tighter unit willing to set aside its differances and work together especially in plexing scenario's but to claim that plexing alts didnt help you and to discount the fact the Amarrians were always heavily outnumbered except in specific TZ's where they could just about match you is a falsification.
Try to remember Muad is an old player who's seen a lot of changes in eve, has a big base of experience and is respected by people on both sides. He clearly has a passion for the FW arena and anyone commited to the FW debate should take on board his views. This isn't about who has the best FW team or who is the best PVP commentator the thread is about getting a better play experience for everyone.
If the Amarr fall completely and the minmatar "win" then they loose as well becuase you'll end up flying around aimlessly with sweet FA to do because there is no enemy for you to fight or method for you to generate LP. Ok so you could come across to Cal/Gal FW and help "win" the war here but that just means all of FW is ****** rather than just half of it.
This thread should stay on two main drives: 1. What needs to be done? 2. How do we get CCP to fix it. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
575
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:06:00 -
[198] - Quote
Ezra Tair wrote:The fleet that performed the heavy lifting of offensive plexing Kour and Kam varied between 20 and 55 for the 12+ hours each day it was going. At this time we could have been forced out, or combated at any time. But for almost the entirety of the weekend we were unopposed, and were able to create a large time zone coverage of the 'front'. I assure you we were not gunless AFK plexing alts that 'took' your stations.
What difference does holding these 2 or 3 systems make? The entire war front of the 67 other systems was going down in flames like dry grass due to farming alts. It's silly to defend this mechanic where alts hide in systems and run plex timers when no wartargets are around.
Ezra Tair wrote: I understand some of you don't like orbiting buttons. I don't blame you, its not particularity satisfying. But I think some/many of the Amarrian side forgot one simple thing. For a long time, even before their was a LP reward for doing so, many minmatar plexed and desired to 'capture' systems.
If you consider 10 players "many" ok. One player had more vp than any of your minmatar corporations. Plexing was always done most efficiently with armies of alts that avoided pvp. This has been why fw is broken since the beginning and its still why its broken. CCP missed the main problem completely with inferno.
"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), GǪ.111 faction warfare complexes were captured GǪ I did not kill anyone in the process..Gǥ Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
422
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:07:00 -
[199] - Quote
Ezra Tair wrote: For a long time, even before their was a LP reward for doing so, many minmatar plexed and desired to 'capture' systems. Those guys never left minmatar militia. +1. And many of them joined up when alliances were allowed into FW. This is the root cause of the Minmatar win. They had, and have, more guys interested in system occupancy. The interesting thing to me is that the morale of an entire militia is affected by a mechanic most of them care nothing about. (This morale issue happens on all sides and is quite interesting to see.) |
Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
88
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:24:00 -
[200] - Quote
FlyingSpoonyBadger wrote:
The reason you didn't see a "300" situation in Eszur/Hof is because space doesnt work like that and lets face it you can always travel via amamake.
Also there were many solid Amarrian plexers in the field that flipped systems prior to the changes, Auga, Kourm, Dal, Vard, Arzad all being hotly contested areas for literally years prior to this iteration. Ok the minmamtar militia was always a tighter unit willing to set aside its differances and work together especially in plexing scenario's but to claim that plexing alts didnt help you and to discount the fact the Amarrians were always heavily outnumbered except in specific TZ's where they could just about match you is a falsification.
Try to remember Muad is an old player who's seen a lot of changes in eve, has a big base of experience and is respected by people on both sides. He clearly has a passion for the FW arena and anyone commited to the FW debate should take on board his views. This isn't about who has the best FW team or who is the best PVP commentator the thread is about getting a better play experience for everyone.
If the Amarr fall completely and the minmatar "win" then they loose as well becuase you'll end up flying around aimlessly with sweet FA to do because there is no enemy for you to fight or method for you to generate LP. Ok so you could come across to Cal/Gal FW and help "win" the war here but that just means all of FW is ****** rather than just half of it.
This thread should stay on two main drives: 1. What needs to be done? 2. How do we get CCP to fix it.
That would be part of the 'map' problem would it not?
Yes Amarr did have some solid plexers. But they left for w/e reason. I play in USTZ. I never particularly 'felt' like we outnumbered anyone. But what I 'feel' does not make it true or false i suppose. The 'alts' did not spring into being the weeks prior to the change went live. It was a concentrated effort to get a 'head start' by the minmatar miltia under the old system of plex spawning.
Prior to the changes their was FA to do already. If we didn't have a counter to your gang, (or your to ours) we/you either ignored it or went around it. Because their was nothing worth fighting over (fighting to keep docking rights has provided some awesome fights), if I didn't like my odds, I re-shiped (GG reshipping wars) or went elsewhere. And we can always blot out the sun i CVA. Because I'm here for 'lol RP' reason not just for GF's. You make your own content.
I agree something needs to be done. I think something needs to be done to drive gunless alts plexing solo an afk out of the warzone. It dilutes the rewards, dilutes the excitement, and bring the wrong people into FW. As to how to fix it, CCP can't MAKE people desire to orbit buttons to defend their space. So lets start there.
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RTSAvalanche
The Imperial Fedaykin
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:26:00 -
[201] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:[quote=Lord BryanII]If Minimatar did not have their geography advantage and did not get that super boost that they did from the goons, would it be fair to say that the Amarr/Minimatar war would be much closer than it is now? If the answer is yes, then would we still be talking about farmers as much as we are now?
I don't think farmers are the issue tbh Once everyone saw Minmatar could hit tier 5 well everyone started getting alts to run the plexes. The sheer volume of alts is not something amarr can touch.
Let's not forget about a certain alliance that made sure tier5 would happen for minmatar. One of the important factors of push starting the minmatar-money-train |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
422
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:31:00 -
[202] - Quote
plexing for systems and isk made fw into exactly what w all screamed about before inferno.
PVE vs PVE
seriously?
Its currently like 2 teams 'fighting' over who gets the buttons and good isk, like incursions, only you can choose your side, and guess what, people do and will continue to join the best isk side. How super duper obvious was this from the start? http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
89
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:35:00 -
[203] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Ezra Tair wrote:The fleet that performed the heavy lifting of offensive plexing Kour and Kam varied between 20 and 55 for the 12+ hours each day it was going. At this time we could have been forced out, or combated at any time. But for almost the entirety of the weekend we were unopposed, and were able to create a large time zone coverage of the 'front'. I assure you we were not gunless AFK plexing alts that 'took' your stations. What difference does holding these 2 or 3 systems make? The entire war front of the 67 other systems was going down in flames like dry grass due to farming alts. It's silly to defend this mechanic where alts hide in systems and run plex timers when no wartargets are around. Ezra Tair wrote: I understand some of you don't like orbiting buttons. I don't blame you, its not particularity satisfying. But I think some/many of the Amarrian side forgot one simple thing. For a long time, even before their was a LP reward for doing so, many minmatar plexed and desired to 'capture' systems.
If you consider 10 players "many" ok. One player had more vp than any of your minmatar corporations. Plexing was always done most efficiently with armies of alts that avoided pvp. This has been why fw is broken since the beginning and its still why its broken. CCP missed the main problem completely with inferno. "It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), GǪ.111 faction warfare complexes were captured GǪ I did not kill anyone in the process..Gǥ Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00
If 1/3 to 1/2 of the sides ships are in those systems, and they are key system to get a quick reship from. They count for alot eh? I can't help the 'alts' of either side. But you yourself added to the problem by doing the same. Both have always been constrained by the same mechanic, its silly to say that one side or the other has an advantage. Its better to state that people enjoy joining a 'winning' side and landsliding it in competitions. That s human nature. It also happened when Nulli started putting system into contested. (and much whining was had by all).
If 10 was all it took, where were your 10? Are you implying Saswaong won it for us all? I'll let him know that. Im sure he enjoyed all the rewards from RP'ing Minmatar elements that paid him to do so? Where was CVA or any applicable corp for you guys? I've taken FAR more than 111 plexes in the 2 or so years I've been in FW, and I only recently reached the top rank due to a corp mission plexing run for our new guys standings. You know as well as I do that their is a diminishing return on plexing after awhile.
BTW, I have a great deal of respect for you. You popped my very first rapier with a rupture in a plex with 'my sides NPCs', and I've been scared off using them forever xD. |
Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
89
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Posted - 2012.08.20 17:38:00 -
[204] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:plexing for systems and isk made fw into exactly what w all screamed about before inferno.
PVE vs PVE
seriously?
Its currently like 2 teams 'fighting' over who gets the buttons and good isk, like incursions, only you can choose your side, and guess what, people do and will continue to join the best isk side. How super duper obvious was this from the start?
But nothing stops you from playing the same game. Yes I know you guys (pretty much solo) took sis, and almost auga. I think our willingness to fleet up together when needed and fight for each others objectives helped alot. You also made defending auga as painful as possible when fleets were not dedicated to the task
Edit to add--
Yea, but look at null sec, and tell me thats not a normal human behavior to group up with the 'winning' side. I joined minmatar when it was the 'losing' side long ago, because I like being the underdog. Seriously, look at my first few KMs...I bio-massed and re-rolled. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
393
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:42:00 -
[205] - Quote
RTSAvalanche wrote:Cearain wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:[quote=Lord BryanII]If Minimatar did not have their geography advantage and did not get that super boost that they did from the goons, would it be fair to say that the Amarr/Minimatar war would be much closer than it is now? If the answer is yes, then would we still be talking about farmers as much as we are now?
I don't think farmers are the issue tbh Once everyone saw Minmatar could hit tier 5 well everyone started getting alts to run the plexes. The sheer volume of alts is not something amarr can touch. Let's not forget about a certain alliance that made sure tier5 would happen for minmatar. One of the important factors of push starting the minmatar-money-train
You really still think the Goonies did anything for us? Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
575
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:05:00 -
[206] - Quote
Ezra Tair wrote:Cearain wrote:If you consider 10 players "many" ok. One player had more vp than any of your minmatar corporations. Plexing was always done most efficiently with armies of alts that avoided pvp. This has been why fw is broken since the beginning and its still why its broken. CCP missed the main problem completely with inferno.
"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), GǪ.111 faction warfare complexes were captured GǪ I did not kill anyone in the process..Gǥ Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00
If 1/3 to 1/2 of the sides ships are in those systems, and they are key system to get a quick reship from. They count for alot eh? I can't help the 'alts' of either side.
I think its just a matter of time before people realize that basing in fw systems just means you are saddled with the obligation to defensive plex. Its just not smart from a purely plexing perspective.
Ezra Tair wrote: But you yourself added to the problem by doing the same. Both have always been constrained by the same mechanic, its silly to say that one side or the other has an advantage. .
If we always had the same npcs in missions and in plexes then I would agree there was no mechanics advantage. But there was a large disparaty in the rats. How much of a factor this was is hard to say. I can say I personally know people who admitted leaving the amarr for minmatar and caldari due to this reason. That doesn't even speak of the people who just joined the easier side to begin with. Nor does it address the actual fact that your side could always cap majors in a rifter when most of fw history we needed a pve bc or even a bs.
Ezra Tair wrote: ... If 10 was all it took, where were your 10? Are you implying Saswaong won it for us all? I'll let him know that. Im sure he enjoyed all the rewards from RP'ing Minmatar elements that paid him to do so? .
No one contributed more. No fc, no elite pvper even came close. The war zone would have looked quite a bit different if he never played eve. At least its a good question as to what it would like if he never played eve - let alone if he would have joined amarr.
As for me I would do, and still do, plexes primarilly for the pvp. Plexes are a good way to get fights. But the actual plexing war is most efficiently waged by avoiding fights. Sounds like a contradiction, perhaps, but its true.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
575
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:05:00 -
[207] - Quote
Ezra Tair wrote: Where was CVA or any applicable corp for you guys? I've taken FAR more than 111 plexes in the 2 or so years I've been in FW, and I only recently reached the top rank due to a corp mission plexing run for our new guys standings. You know as well as I do that their is a diminishing return on plexing after awhile..
I think it depends on how many are in the plex with you. But if she ran more plexes without ever killing anyone in pvp to get that top rank its even worse.
Ezra Tair wrote: BTW, I have a great deal of respect for you. You popped my very first rapier in a rupture in a plex, and I've been scared off using them forever xD.
I have respect for you, your corp and generally minmatar as well. Plexing issues aside I think we get more good fights than anywhere else in eve. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
422
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:09:00 -
[208] - Quote
CCP made the grass greener and then left the gate open.
guess what all the cattle ended up in the same place *shocking*
can we cut FW out of low sec and throw it in a wormhole somwhere and try again now please? http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
RTSAvalanche
The Imperial Fedaykin
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:37:00 -
[209] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:RTSAvalanche wrote:Cearain wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:[quote=Lord BryanII]If Minimatar did not have their geography advantage and did not get that super boost that they did from the goons, would it be fair to say that the Amarr/Minimatar war would be much closer than it is now? If the answer is yes, then would we still be talking about farmers as much as we are now?
I don't think farmers are the issue tbh Once everyone saw Minmatar could hit tier 5 well everyone started getting alts to run the plexes. The sheer volume of alts is not something amarr can touch. Let's not forget about a certain alliance that made sure tier5 would happen for minmatar. One of the important factors of push starting the minmatar-money-train You really still think the Goonies did anything for us?
You really still think the Nulli's did anything for us? |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
396
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:39:00 -
[210] - Quote
RTSAvalanche wrote:You really still think the Nulli's did anything for us?
They got you to T4, m8.
Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
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