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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2744
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Posted - 2012.08.20 20:03:00 -
[31] - Quote
Almity wrote:You assume the "old guard" cares about system ownership. If my enjoyment comes from leading combat fleets and fighting the enemy I will focus my time and efforts doing so. You are so focused on the PVE side of FW I think you forgot why most of us are here.
I make no such assumption Almity. I know your "old guard" don't care about system ownership. But not caring has bitten you in the collective ass and has brought you where you are today and that's the thing chiefly to blame - not swarms of gunless frigates and farming alts as some of your comrades are trying to make out. You have been caring about pvp on your own terms (station camping, hotdropping, smartbombing pods on gates, gate-camping etc etc - pretty much anything BUT complex PVP for occupied systems. The reality is probably that you'd be better off just being a lowsec pirate rather than being bound by FW 2.0 because you don't care about the PVP it offers and you don't like the restrictions it places upon you.
Almity wrote:Don't try to dictate how I play Eve. You can win the occupancy war all you want. I will keep doing what i have enjoyed doing the last two years.
I'm not trying to dictate anything to you Almity - I'm simply saying that some of your comrades are blaming the wrong things for your militia collapse. It's not because hundreds of farming alts have plexed up fortunes in dead end systems - its because your pvp'ers don't care about contesting(de-contesting) staging systems that you lost.
It really doesn't matter if you care about occupancy or not Almity - you play eve your own way and good luck to you. But for those trying to claim that the system was somehow to blame - they are the one's making a big mistake. Amarr failed because its pvp'ers weren't really interested in faction war at the end of the day - just the (consequence-free) wardec.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Christine Peeveepeeski
The Imperial Fedaykin
97
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Posted - 2012.08.20 20:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: It really doesn't matter if you care about occupancy or not Almity - you play eve your own way and good luck to you. But for those trying to claim that the system was somehow to blame - they are the one's making a big mistake. Amarr failed because its pvp'ers weren't really interested in faction war at the end of the day - just the (consequence-free) wardec.
Nope, many of us, even the bitter, are all for Faction warfare. If SOV was based on more than just orbiting buttons I'm sure far more of us would be on it.
I want consequence but that doesn't have to be based on a mechanic designed to waste my time in the dullest way possible. |
Thomas Kreshant
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
159
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Posted - 2012.08.20 20:26:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:[ Amarr failed because its pvp'ers weren't really interested in faction war at the end of the day - just the (consequence-free) wardec.
As I'm new to EVE/FW I've not idea if it's so but most people have said FW was completely different prior to Inferno.
So maybe it's not that people were only after a few wardec and were not really interested in FW so much as FW became something new and something they no longer had interest in.
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Almity
Imperial Outlaws
20
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Posted - 2012.08.20 20:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
If it were only that simple. Jade I challenge you to look at the Amarr/Minmatar map and tell me that it is remotely fair. Metro is almost impossible to break into without massive numbers of around the clock plexers. For the record I did push systems. My fleets did do as you suggested. But any gains made through hard fought pvp or mindless plexing boredom are so easily reversed.
If we have a strong four hours in our timezone and the euro time zone had their strong four hours that equals eight hours of plexing time. That leaves sixteen hours for the opposing side to deplex. Not to mention the time needed to deplex our home systems.
I have in the past commended the Minmatar on their foresight before inferno. Amarr just did not have the numbers to defend systems at the time. Kamela was being pushed so hard we had no choice but to throw everything we had at it to defend. After inferno Minmatar quickly reached a high level of warzone control drawing in many PVE players looking to make isk. The Amarr got combat pilots.
We may have been able to fight the Minmatar head to head again after many months of being outnumbered and out gunned but that in no way means system control. It is the plexers who hold the big stick when it comes to sov.
Just to give you an example. From the day inferno launched till Amarr cashed out at T4 I personally made 900k LP. If this number seems low its because i spend most of my eve time in or leading fleets. Many plexes I was in I never got to reap the rewards being at the warp in. The vast majority of my LP came from kills.
Now my Minmatar alt, at 30 hours training time has made 600k LP in three evenings plexing. Once Minmatar reach T5 I will have made more isk in that short time then all the time I spend fighting and dieing for Amarr. Now Jade, tell me how this system is working as intended. I would love o hear your thoughts on it. |
Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
90
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Posted - 2012.08.20 20:45:00 -
[35] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:[ Amarr failed because its pvp'ers weren't really interested in faction war at the end of the day - just the (consequence-free) wardec.
As I'm new to EVE/FW I've not idea if it's so but most people have said FW was completely different prior to Inferno. So maybe it's not that people were only after a few wardec and were not really interested in FW so much as FW became something new and something they no longer had interest in.
Prior to Inferno, if you brought a fleet your opponents did not want to fight, they would avoid you. And you would be bored, or they would re-ship to counter. Then you would re-ship to counter. Then they would. If someone got confused about who had the upperhand, their would be a fight.
Now, if you brought a fleet your opponents did not want to fight, they would avoid you. But you can affect their ability to dock and earn some income for yourself. But you would still probably be bored. But eventually you would be either fiscally sound or able to dock in that system or deny them docing rights. So their was an upside. You could also affect this with only T1 cruisers and lower, requiring no BC or BS skills or ships.
This was why fweddit was so effective at turning system vulnerable. Most of you were equipped to enter into the very plexes most minmatar enjoyed fighting in. You could force them out, and you guys spread out instead of sitting in a single BC/BS gang with logi doing one large plex every 20 minutes.
Some folks 'grew up' decided t1 cruisers down was beneath them and do their best to force fights on their terms. Kudos to them, but its not going to win the occupancy war when small and medium plexes carry the same weight as a large and finish faster. |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
40
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Posted - 2012.08.20 20:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Amett wrote:well with everyone going caldari i think Gal will soon know what Amarr feels like. You let me know. No, because once Minmatar take the rest of Amarr space, where do you think our farmers will go? Before Nulli cashed out, Caldari were down to a smattering of systems. Seriously, Gallente are gonna steamroll the Caldari once the Minmatar cash out.
And gallente have exactly 10 systems or so right now which are not vulnerable and this whole front is not massive farmville with everyone and their dogs alt piling on easy Caldari/Matar LP?
Try again moron. Then again, based on drivel you spout to local, calling you a moron is an insult to morons around the world.
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Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
90
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Posted - 2012.08.20 20:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
Almity wrote:If it were only that simple. Jade I challenge you to look at the Amarr/Minmatar map and tell me that it is remotely fair. Metro is almost impossible to break into without massive numbers of around the clock plexers. For the record I did push systems. My fleets did do as you suggested. But any gains made through hard fought pvp or mindless plexing boredom are so easily reversed.
If we have a strong four hours in our timezone and the euro time zone had their strong four hours that equals eight hours of plexing time. That leaves sixteen hours for the opposing side to deplex. Not to mention the time needed to deplex our home systems.
I have in the past commended the Minmatar on their foresight before inferno. Amarr just did not have the numbers to defend systems at the time. Kamela was being pushed so hard we had no choice but to throw everything we had at it to defend. After inferno Minmatar quickly reached a high level of warzone control drawing in many PVE players looking to make isk. The Amarr got combat pilots.
We may have been able to fight the Minmatar head to head again after many months of being outnumbered and out gunned but that in no way means system control. It is the plexers who hold the big stick when it comes to sov.
Just to give you an example. From the day inferno launched till Amarr cashed out at T4 I personally made 900k LP. If this number seems low its because i spend most of my eve time in or leading fleets. Many plexes I was in I never got to reap the rewards being at the warp in. The vast majority of my LP came from kills.
Now my Minmatar alt, at 30 hours training time has made 600k LP in three evenings plexing. Once Minmatar reach T5 I will have made more isk in that short time then all the time I spend fighting and dieing for Amarr. Now Jade, tell me how this system is working as intended. I would love o hear your thoughts on it.
Not to butt in, but I thought D plexing was boring and no one did it? Was it people trying to PvP you? Or do we have a dedicated staff of D plexers on call? Also I have made perhaps 1.3m LP in my entire time in FW :( Only perhaps 600k since Inferno. I must be slacking :(
(120k+200K+220K=640k LP sorry)
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Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
91
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Posted - 2012.08.20 20:54:00 -
[38] - Quote
I wonder if things would be better if your current tier only affected your LP payout, so that keeping the level up was beneficial. Hmmm. Then LP store items never changed prices. Hmmmm that would affect some things Im sure. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
285
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Posted - 2012.08.20 20:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Cearain wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: I think some of the old school Amarr became a bit obsessed with moaning to be quite honest. To many of its groups became very restricted in their tactics and gameplay outlook and simply failed to adapt to the demands of the warzone. Sure everyone can complain and grumble about gunless-farming-alts or whatnot but they don't really matter. ...
Actually they are all that matter for the plexing game. The actual pvpers and results of their battles, have very little impact on the occupancy war. I don't buy it Cearain really. I think all this talk of mobs of plexing alts is completely overblown. The reality is that you guys collectively (The amarr militia) just didn't want to defensive plex or risk basing in the warzone post Inferno.) You had the numbers (in pvpers) you had the equipment, the firepower, the capital support (which could have been used for logistics efforts and lifts between staging systems rather than sitting on silly hotdrops). You guys had massive numerical advantage at times but you squandered it (again collectively) by having the old school aversion to plex warfare and the idea of a caste division between "those that are here for pvp" and those that are here for the occupancy war. I think the leading organizations in the Amarr militia are the ones that lost it for you. Blaming hordes of anonymous farming alts (lots of them from the amarr) is just missing the point. If you have your leaders and fc's saying they aren't interested in the occupancy war and your oldest established corps and alliances running for the hills and away from the vulnerable warzone then you end up building a culture of defeat that breeds only losers in the long term. I have no idea whatsoever how with Fweddit, Nulli, Tears, and your USTZ dominance you guys were incapable of rolling Huola in the last month. That was the crux of the war really - nothing to do with alt farming characters in apocryphally-gunless t1 frigates. I think the pvpers and their battles have everything to do with Faction War because that's the morale, the mythology, the heroism and the shared experience that bind a militia together and make it a fighting force with desire to fight and win - rather than being a channel full of greedy selfish whingers that refuse to defend their own staging systems without somebody else to hold their hands. Sorry Cearain - I think you are a decent guy - but you are WAY too fixated on the alt-plexing farming stuff and I think your strategy of staking all on a vulnerability exploit (small "e") for a grand tier 5 cashout against an undefeated Matari militia with its staging systems intact was extremely poor. You made the mistake of going for the cynical money grab rather than trying to win the war and it cost you in the long term. When you had the advantages of Fweddit Nullli Hun and the rest you guys should have been purging Auga, Dal, Huola and driving minmatar back to Bosboger and hisec. Your infinite vulnerability really misfired in a big way. Winning faction war is not about milking the system and making alts rich - its about breaking the will of enemy pvp corps and alliances and winning the occupancy fights that matter in the home systems. In the future I think the Amarr Militia can recover, but it needs to forget ALL the things its veterans THINK they know. You need to start from the beginning - forget any concept of alt farming meta nonsense and work on building a good place to play for those that want to take joy in Eve PVP and are prepared to fly together and build a community. It might take years - but you have to get over this alt-plexing obsession or just walk yourself - because at the moment the Amarrian old guard are the worst enemies to Amarrian recovery in this warzone.
Its easy to sit on the outside and say that a group should have done certain things without knowing the full story. The weekend after we took Kourmonen, Nulli promised assistance in taking Huola/Auga the following weekend, except when the time came to evict the Minmatar from those systems they were off in nullsec fighting goons or something. They kept repeatedly reassuring the Amarr militia that they would handle various things, however, after the first week and a half or so their initial enthusiasm was gone.
Many of us within the Amarr militia realized that taking down staging systems was going to be key, but like I said before, without Nulli really giving much support on our end of the warzone, we were still facing the same numbers disadvantage we had pre-Nulli, which was a 2:1 spread if you compared militia chats. We took Kourmonen mostly by accident, unfortunately after that event the Minny militia went into alert mode and began actively defensive plexing all their staging systems. It doesn't matter what we did US TZ regarding offensive plexing, everything we did was undone by their EU/AU TZs. Its really easy to look at things on the outside and say that we didn't work together well or miscalculate our military ability, yet the truth of it is we supported each other much more than people realize. Sure, Lost Obsession was never this dedicated saviour like so many people seem to have expected them to be, but FG was always willing to help us when we needed extra firepower or wanted to push a strategic goal. In fact, I would argue that a larger percentage of the Amarr Militia coordinated with each other than the Minmatar Militia.
You speak of the camraderie and the building of a community as something that is important to succeed, and I totally agree. I'd like to point out that out of the new guard groups that fought for the Amarr, we all have very close ties and are continuing flying together in the Calmil. The fact is, things had gotten stale on the Amarr front way before Nulli joined, they only prolonged the inevitable and gave us a chance to cash out.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Dan Carter Murray
87
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Posted - 2012.08.20 21:18:00 -
[40] - Quote
the sov/lockout/etc. is fine.
so most of you have herpmatar plexing alts...great who gives a sh*t...use the isk and adopt the following attitude about FW and the new mechanics or whatever:
it's about walking onto the front lawn of your enemy and dropping a deuce in their yard by taking their system, then moving in, then ravaging the remaining SOBs trying to flee the stations with their stuff
it's about giving the finger to everyone that even thinks about taking back the system you worked hard to take
it's about giving the finger to everyone that evens thinks about stepping foot in the systems around yours
it's about dictating what kind of fights you want to have using plexes
it's about doing something so insane, such as moving in behind enemy lines and pushing to take a system to set a foothold where no one expects
if people take this attitude in amarr militia then minmatar are in trouble because the blobmatar are lazy and can't be everywhere at all times and they won't be.
there are plenty of big corps that can make this happen. insofar as i know there are still 3 "active" and "big" corps left in amarr militia. these 3 corps, who probably only want to moan will not do what is necessary, but the following is an EXAMPLE of what might be necessary to permenantly f*ck up the minmatar: 1. major campaign to take avenod via audaerne as an initial staging point, or setting up a temporary POS in audarne. this will require whoever takes avenod to permenantly move to avenod and offensive plex all surrounding systems and defensive plex avenod
2. major campaign to take todifrauan via akkio. this will require whoever takes todifrauan to permenantly move to todifrauan and offensive plex all surrounding systems and defensive plex todifrauan
3. major campaign to take siseide via egghelende. this will require whoever takes siseide to permenantly move to siseide and offensive plex all surrounding systems and defensive plex siseide
4. all other corps work on pushing bleak lands and moving in as they take systems.
if you want to keep systems, you have to move there.
sadly, no one will do the above example or anything similar, so good luck, and continue "le b*tching" below
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Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
125
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Posted - 2012.08.20 21:25:00 -
[41] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Xuixien wrote:Amett wrote:well with everyone going caldari i think Gal will soon know what Amarr feels like. You let me know. No, because once Minmatar take the rest of Amarr space, where do you think our farmers will go? Before Nulli cashed out, Caldari were down to a smattering of systems. Seriously, Gallente are gonna steamroll the Caldari once the Minmatar cash out. Look at the numbers. Gallente are getting steamrolled by Caldari as far as plexing goes. The Caldari currently only plex in their home space as there is no reason for them to farm more difficult minmatar plexes when there are plenty of easy Gallente plexes. The Gallente only plex in their home space as there isn't enough Amarr systems to make it worth while. The Minmatar mostly plex in their home space but there is a non-trivial amount of plexing done by groups like QCATS in Caldari systems. VictoryPointsLastWeek" key="factionID" columns="factionID,factionName,victoryPoints" factionName="Caldari State" victoryPoints="259517" factionName="Minmatar Republic" victoryPoints="252289" factionName="Gallente Federation" victoryPoints="79750" factionName="Amarr Empire" victoryPoints="33109" Once the Minmatar start farming Caldari systems, the combined Gallente/Minmatar plexes will outperform the Caldari but it won't be a steamroll.
Question: Do Minmatar character receive VP for plexing Caldari space? Something to consider. Rabble Rabble!! Don't mind me. I just enjoy crapping all over the forums and laughing at the people who take it too seriously. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2747
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Posted - 2012.08.20 21:36:00 -
[42] - Quote
@Almity
Since its literally impossible to stop smaller ships moving through lowsec I'm honestly not sure what the geographical implications are here. Any significant outfit could have set up a forward base (staging pos) and run in plexing ships via carriers and stored reships in a maintenance array if they wanted to be there directly. And arguably that's precisely where you should have been.
Huola (where Late Night call their home) is directly in your face in the heart of your power.
24th needed a base deep in Minmatar heartland as a mirror to Huola - not crouching in Kamela right next to their own hisec.
Almity wrote:For the record I did push systems. My fleets did do as you suggested. But any gains made through hard fought pvp or mindless plexing boredom are so easily reversed. If we have a strong four hours in our timezone and the euro time zone had their strong four hours that equals eight hours of plexing time. That leaves sixteen hours for the opposing side to deplex. Not to mention the time needed to deplex our home systems.
Defensive plexing is mind-numbing and causes attrition. Its really not a 1 for 1 exchange. But sure, you can't effectively push a defended system unless you are willing to move in really - that seems to be the point of FW 2.0. I felt Fweddit could have held Kourmonen if they were as enthusiastic and numerous as a couple of months ago (but I do understand they had their internal dramas and all that).
Almity wrote:I have in the past commended the Minmatar on their foresight before inferno. Amarr just did not have the numbers to defend systems at the time. Kamela was being pushed so hard we had no choice but to throw everything we had at it to defend. After inferno Minmatar quickly reached a high level of warzone control drawing in many PVE players looking to make isk. The Amarr got combat pilots. We may have been able to fight the Minmatar head to head again after many months of being outnumbered and out gunned but that in no way means system control. It is the plexers who hold the big stick when it comes to sov.
This is where I have to disagree with you Almity - I really don't believe it was the hordes of PVE plexers that made the difference. The people plexing where it mattered were minmatar fighters pretty much ALL OF THEM. And its where the fact that the Matari miltia was more united and comradely that made this possible. People worked together and there wasn't an artificial division of fighter vs pve as there seems to be in 24th.
Almity wrote:Just to give you an example. From the day inferno launched till Amarr cashed out at T4 I personally made 900k LP. If this number seems low its because i spend most of my eve time in or leading fleets. Many plexes I was in I never got to reap the rewards being at the warp in. The vast majority of my LP came from kills.
Now my Minmatar alt, at 30 hours training time has made 600k LP in three evenings plexing. Once Minmatar reach T5 I will have made more isk in that short time then all the time I spend fighting and dieing for Amarr. Now Jade, tell me how this system is working as intended. I would love o hear your thoughts on it.
In faction warfare occupancy terms you are fighting against yourself - your minmatar alt has rendered any achievement you managed on your amarrian main void because you've taken easy isk over fighting for your faction. The system tempted you with easy money and you gave in to that temptation at the cost of the morale, camaraderie and general health of your own miltiia.
If I was in the 24th Crusade as an Amarrian roleplayer I'd blow you up as a traitor to the empire. The actions of players like yourself destroyed the 24th position - ultimately I think you need to admit that while you cradle your wallet. In eve terms you are a collaborator and war-profiteer who worked with the enemy of your people rendering your participation to the war effort void.
Eve is a dark game - but you played the quisling and collaborator with the enemy - its a bit late now to bemoan the system that allowed you to betray your own people in this way
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2747
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 21:52:00 -
[43] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote: Its easy to sit on the outside and say that a group should have done certain things without knowing the full story. The weekend after we took Kourmonen, Nulli promised assistance in taking Huola/Auga the following weekend, except when the time came to evict the Minmatar from those systems they were off in nullsec fighting goons or something. They kept repeatedly reassuring the Amarr militia that they would handle various things, however, after the first week and a half or so their initial enthusiasm was gone.
I think Nulli did get countered pretty damn well by EM/Quantum cats. So hats off to those organizations really. But even taking Nulli out of the direct equation the fact they were contesting Metro bought you some advantage in numbers (because of the matari fighters who were not around to defend the staging systems in amarr space)
Pinky Feldman wrote:Many of us within the Amarr militia realized that taking down staging systems was going to be key, but like I said before, without Nulli really giving much support on our end of the warzone, we were still facing the same numbers disadvantage we had pre-Nulli, which was a 2:1 spread if you compared militia chats.
Those chat numbers are pretty useless - if we accept the fact that Minmatar has picked up a load of leeching alts from the other factions (who are obviously never going to be seen in battle contesting the important targets) then the reality is that Amarr had the advantage for a period of time. You guys always had the heavy side advantage (large plexes) and bunker advantage (through cap power) and you were also fighting right at the beginning of your supply line from Amarr in systems a couple of jumps away. Add Fweddit for cheap ship bulking and some seasoned commanders then you could probably have expected to grind huola and arzad alongside kourm, auga, dal, rather than trying to push for the short term cashout plan via the infinite vulnerability deal. Now sure I admit its easy to be wise after the event. But the point I'm making really in this thread is that the farming hordes were not the reason you guys lost - it was poor strategy and lack of focus on fighting where it counted in my opinion.
Pinky Feldman wrote: We took Kourmonen mostly by accident, unfortunately after that event the Minny militia went into alert mode and began actively defensive plexing all their staging systems. It doesn't matter what we did US TZ regarding offensive plexing, everything we did was undone by their EU/AU TZs. Its really easy to look at things on the outside and say that we didn't work together well or miscalculate our military ability, yet the truth of it is we supported each other much more than people realize. Sure, Lost Obsession was never this dedicated saviour like so many people seem to have expected them to be, but FG was always willing to help us when we needed extra firepower or wanted to push a strategic goal. In fact, I would argue that a larger percentage of the Amarr Militia coordinated with each other than the Minmatar Militia.
Well defensive plexing is more morale sapping than offensive plexing end of the day. The fact that minmatar militia was able to defensive plex its staging systems while being outnumbered in most fleets during that period is quite telling - outfits like Wolf Brigade that didn't like plex fighting don't help you guys either. But a fight over an occupied staging system is always going to be a test of attrition - one sides will is going to break first. That's where camaraderie and bonds of friendship and even pride in one's militia count.
And let me tell you something. I never saw Minmatar pilots telling us they were plexing Amarrian LP's on their alts while Minmatar pilots were fighting those defensive actions. That stuff is absolutely poisonous to morale and sense of a unified militia.
Pinky Feldman wrote:You speak of the camraderie and the building of a community as something that is important to succeed, and I totally agree. I'd like to point out that out of the new guard groups that fought for the Amarr, we all have very close ties and are continuing flying together in the Calmil. The fact is, things had gotten stale on the Amarr front way before Nulli joined, they only prolonged the inevitable and gave us a chance to cash out.
Well ultimately its a game Pinky - we all have to do whats fun and good luck with building your community in the new locations!
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Almity
Imperial Outlaws
20
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 21:53:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ignoring all your other points, how does plexing a system that is already vulnerable hurt my militia? Its easy money, money that is needed to fight a war. My guys fly ruppies yours fly sfi. |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
233
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Posted - 2012.08.20 21:56:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:In faction warfare occupancy terms you are fighting against yourself - your minmatar alt has rendered any achievement you managed on your amarrian main void because you've taken easy isk over fighting for your faction.
Ah, no. That's what Vulnerable systems are for. The Minmatar don't flip them because they don't want T5 just yet; Amarrians' farming alts can contest them from 1234% to 1235% with a clear conscience. The real cost is the pvp you don't get because you're not even logged in as someone capable of pvp. But compared to alternatives like jump-cloning to NPC nullsec and carebearing there, switching to/from a Minmatar alt at least doesn't have a cooldown timer.
Jade Constantine wrote:The system tempted you with easy money and you gave in to that temptation at the cost of the morale, camaraderie and general health of your own miltiia.
*snort*. Jade's figured it all out guys. If only nobody ever had Minmatar alts, everything would be fine. There would be no cost whatsoever to absolutely everyone knowing that they're behaving like noble chumps. Every single honorable act of earning 1/16th-income wouldn't sprout any bitterness all by itself.
At least the traitors can directly steal income from the ******* farmers. Nothing else hinders them. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2747
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Posted - 2012.08.20 21:58:00 -
[46] - Quote
Almity wrote:Ignoring all your other points, how does plexing a system that is already vulnerable hurt my militia? Its easy money, money that is needed to fight a war. My guys fly ruppies yours fly sfi.
Edit. Bah misunderstood the question.
It hurts your militia because its achieving nothing except isk generation when you should be pursuing strategic goals (ie capturing systems and denying them to the enemy).
Nobody in eve is that poor. Any militia could find 100 players capable of buying an handing out 1000 t1 dessies to their militia mates end of the day. If the sense of community is there nobody will go without a ship to fly. The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2748
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 22:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:*snort*. Jade's figured it all out guys. If only nobody ever had Minmatar alts, everything would be fine. There would be no cost whatsoever to absolutely everyone knowing that they're behaving like noble chumps. Every single honorable act of earning 1/16th-income wouldn't sprout any bitterness all by itself.At least the traitors can directly steal income from the ******* farmers. Nothing else hinders them.
Well you made your choice Kuehnelt you chose to become spivs and black marketeers in a dominant Matari warzone control rather than fighting with all your strength to prevent that happening. Sure you can steal a little isk and income from your enemies and pat your wallet but your militia will have no systems, no pride and no self respect.
Isn't that really whats happened?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Christine Peeveepeeski
The Imperial Fedaykin
102
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Posted - 2012.08.20 22:06:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jade, you have to bare in mind not everyone plays this game for storyline and RP. For RP it's pretty **** TBH. 1 Dimensional races and no support from CCP for the RP'ers that desperately need it.
I mean FFS, head to intergalactic summit and all the amarr/minmatar convos are about slavers, slaves, slaving and being enslaved. One dimensional RP does not lead people like me to want to play for RP reasons. Using RP to say we are being herberts is just stupid. i'd argue that from an RP perspective this FW system is ********. Argue otherwise please... I'd be very interested to see what you say.
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Roderick Grey
House Of Serenity. Unprovoked Aggression
30
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Posted - 2012.08.20 23:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
Amett wrote:sYnc Vir wrote:Confirming leaving fw stops losec pvp from happening. as i have a pirate alt, this is a said thing :(
Is syndicate a part of fw now or something? |
Lord Zim
1163
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 00:45:00 -
[50] - Quote
What's this? Tons of people gaming the FW system for max isk by joining the winning side, instead of being e-bushido honourable RPers?
Shocking. Just like it when players' interest in incursions went more or less away overnight when they weren't so hilariosly overpowered isk printers anymore. |
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Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate
29
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Posted - 2012.08.21 00:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:
Question: Do Minmatar character receive VP for plexing Caldari space? Something to consider.
No, they do not. However, you can look at the historical data and see Caldari earning vp at 3x the rate of all the other militias. The Minmatar, Gallente, and Amarr were about equal. After the Amarr flipped systems, you saw Minmatar numbers shoot up. My theory is all the plexers left caldari space to farm the much easier Amarr plexs. This would mean the Minmatar and Caldari have roughly equal plexing armies and the gallente have about 1/3 of that. The Amarr used to be on par with gallente, but have since dried up.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
427
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Posted - 2012.08.21 04:43:00 -
[52] - Quote
Those who complain about not getting what they didn't want anyways is what is interesting to me. Amarr on the whole, except for perhaps Ms. Yoshida who left FW a long time ago, didn't want to participate in occupancy warfare anyways. And now they complain about losing all their systems. If you want pvp, it's in FW.
The inconvenience of you having to move two jumps to a non-FW system is small compared to the significant increase in pew for the rest of us. Sorry.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
575
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:49:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Cearain wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: I think some of the old school Amarr became a bit obsessed with moaning to be quite honest. To many of its groups became very restricted in their tactics and gameplay outlook and simply failed to adapt to the demands of the warzone. Sure everyone can complain and grumble about gunless-farming-alts or whatnot but they don't really matter. ...
Actually they are all that matter for the plexing game. The actual pvpers and results of their battles, have very little impact on the occupancy war. I don't buy it Cearain really. I think all this talk of mobs of plexing alts is completely overblown. The reality is that you guys collectively (The amarr militia) just didn't want to defensive plex or risk basing in the warzone post Inferno.) .
Defensive plex? In the 36 hourse after we flipped those 40 ssytems they were already on average over 50% contested. Defensive plexing against that army of alts is crazy.
Base in the warzone? With station lockouts that is just stupid. We base in egg which is just one jump from the warzone. This allows us to actually play the game without being saddled with defensive plexing - which just feeds your alts and is clearly not as effective as offensive plexing.
You say its not alts in pve ships. Ok I will ask you the same things I have been asking other minmatar who claim this has something to do with pvp. I fully expect you will avoid answering these questions just like they did. Here are the questions many minmatar cheerleaders don't want to answer:
I will ask you the same thing I asked vordak (and now Ezzra). What percent of plexes do you think were capped by t1 frigates?
I mean we can keep using relative terms all we want. I can say "too much" of it is farm alts. You can say things like "the real war was won with pvp."
But what are the actual numbers?
Post inferno what sort of ships capped what sort of plexes for each faction. How many majors did amarr capture using a single frigate? How many majors did minmatar capture using this? Etc. I would Love to see a break down of this. Because I think it will show that over seventy percent of plexes minmatar captured were in frigates.
But before we get these actual numbers what do you think a legitimate spread would be?
I think a legitimate spread would be that minors are run by frigates and destroyers and account for at least 1/3 of the total plexes. Mediums would be run by cruisers fifty percent of the time and by afs about thirty percent and the rest can be frigate destroyers. Mediums should account for about 1/3 of plexes run. Majors Run by BSes bcs or hacs about fifty percent of the time thirty percent by cruisers and the rest smaller ships the 2 types of majors will account for about the remaining 1/3 of pelxes. I also think there should be somone scrammed or blown up in at least every other plex run if we want to call this a pvp mechanic.
That is what I think is a legitimate win. Instead I think we will find that the minmatar ran many more majors in frigates than amarr did. I think we will find that no one fought in eighty percent of the plexes run. Most plexing involves hiding from the enemy and orbiting the button. I think we will find that Minmatar ran at least seventy percent of their plexes in frigates and destroyers. Winning at this is not something to be proud of unless you are proud of your carebearing,
There now please answer some of those questions then we can talk about this being pvp. And perhaps we can talk to CCP Diagoras to see if he can give us the real numbers regarding your big win. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
575
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:52:00 -
[54] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Those who complain about not getting what they didn't want anyways is what is interesting to me. Amarr on the whole, except for perhaps Ms. Yoshida who left FW a long time ago, didn't want to participate in occupancy warfare anyways. And now they complain about losing all their systems. If you want pvp, it's in FW.
The inconvenience of you having to move two jumps to a non-FW system is small compared to the significant increase in pew for the rest of us. Sorry.
Ill ask you the same questions I will ask the other minmatar cheerleaders who try to claim this has anything to do with pvp. See my post above. I'm sure you will ignore it like they do. Because anything close to honest answers shows that winning occupancy has almost nothing to do with pvp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
576
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Posted - 2012.08.21 12:10:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Sorry Cearain - I think you are a decent guy - but you are WAY too fixated on the alt-plexing farming stuff and I think your strategy of staking all on a vulnerability exploit (small "e") for a grand tier 5 cashout against an undefeated Matari militia with its staging systems intact was extremely poor. .
I'm sorry I can't tell if you are serious.
The strategy was working perfectly. The problem came when nulli abandoned the strategy and flipped systems early. Surely you are not so uninformed that you are not aware of this. They also started farming vulnerable systems instead of moving on to systems that were still contested.
I do believe the reason the stopped early was due to the bloody nose in pvp minmatar was giving them up in metro. But that really had nothing to do with whether they could continue plexing in their gunless merlins. Both sides can continue to do this and its impossible to stop unless you have a huge numerical advantage.
I appreciate your advice to base in fw space so we can be saddled with d plexing and feed your militia lp. I also appreciate your advice to never use the strategy that was working well. But I tend not to take advise from my enemies.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
46
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Posted - 2012.08.21 12:15:00 -
[56] - Quote
Seems to be a lot of people in Amarr who plex against themselves with their own alts and still wonder why their militia can't get anywhere.
It's really not that tricky to see the problem here.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
125
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Posted - 2012.08.21 12:32:00 -
[57] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Seems to be a lot of people in Amarr who plex against themselves with their own alts and still wonder why their militia can't get anywhere.
It's really not that tricky to see the problem here.
I have to agree, its kinda like shooting yourself in the foot then bitching that you cant walk anymore.
Also I cant believe that im agreeing with Jade on this but you really are just complaining about a problem you helped create by putting isk generation above all else. That combined with the relentless negativity coming from the amarr who bother to post here and I can see why you have such issues. |
Lord Zim
1166
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 12:34:00 -
[58] - Quote
Darek Castigatus wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Seems to be a lot of people in Amarr who plex against themselves with their own alts and still wonder why their militia can't get anywhere.
It's really not that tricky to see the problem here.
I have to agree, its kinda like shooting yourself in the foot then bitching that you cant walk anymore. Also I cant believe that im agreeing with Jade on this but you really are just complaining about a problem you helped create by putting isk generation above all else. That combined with the relentless negativity coming from the amarr who bother to post here and I can see why you have such issues. Are you seriously trying to guilt him into saying it was his fault, when CCP made a game mechanic which is gameable as all hell? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
432
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Posted - 2012.08.21 12:35:00 -
[59] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Ill ask you the same questions I will ask the other minmatar cheerleaders who try to claim this has anything to do with pvp. See my post above. I'm sure you will ignore it like they do. Because anything close to honest answers shows that winning occupancy has almost nothing to do with pvp.
If you don't want to fully particpate in the occupancy warfare that's your choice. And guess what, nobody is forcing you to. I am just amazed at how much complaining there is from people who don't care about occupancy warfare to begin with.
In any case you are completely right. Occupancy warfare involves zero pvp when one side decides to not fight. In the hinterlands it's the gunless frigates running plexes. In home systems, when there is a concentrated effort by the attackers to take a system over a two day period, it's the defenders who stay docked up.
My theory is that the real complaint is all about access to easy isk, not pvp, and how plexing alts are disrupting that access for Amarr FW. However, nobody wants to say it directly so they start complaining about lack of pvp, station lockouts, whatever even though PVP in FW is the best it has ever been.
The point Jade and these other guys are trying to make is that if the alt plexing situation were straighted out, Amarr would still lose. They - Electus Matari, Star Fraction, Murietor Tribe, are doing occupancy warfare for system control, not isk. They'll be doing occupancy warfare whether or not they are at Tier 1 or Tier 5. They aren't going to failcascade when things go **** up. Most of the Amarr will only do occupancy warfare if they have a chance at a higher tier payout because all they care about is easy isk. Fweddit, Nulli, WBR were in Amarr FW for other reasons and have since bailed once the prospects of easy Amarr FW isk have dried up. My guess is that Iron Oxide and Late Night are in FW mostly for pvp, but they are rooted in Minmatar FW forever since they all "grew up" in FW. So they're staying too.
Who are the Amarr equivalents of these alliances and corporations? |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2012.08.21 12:37:00 -
[60] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:What's this? Tons of people gaming the FW system for max isk by joining the winning side, instead of being e-bushido honourable RPers?
Shocking. Just like it when players' interest in incursions went more or less away overnight when they weren't so hilariosly overpowered isk printers anymore. It's not about e-bushido, but about people who were in Amarr militia like forever making their own Amarr LP pretty damn worthless by grinding plexes for Minmatar. Sure, they get ISK anyways, but when they log on their Amarr toon to fight all they see is people upset by everything that is going on. As a result, instead of FW being "PvP combat + ISK" it became "ISK + Derp" for them, which isn't something they wanted in the first place. But which is something that they could try to avert even with current system.
But of course it's not that most Minmatar plexers are Amarr militia alts, there are lot of other people creating them and (obviously) joining Minmatar. This is something Amarr militia has nothing to do really.
Maybe FW is playable with current system as people (those who make sense ITT at least) suggest, but it still allows "sov" to be affected by people who have nothing to do with actual fighting. So maybe it'll indeed make sense to introduce some tweaks in FW system. I'm pretty sure there's lot of ideas floating around (contested plexes instead of defencive/offencive applying whatever gaming industry knows of "domination", "capture points", whatever you call it, gameplay; tweaking LP gain to re-rout the flow into hands of those who do actual fighting a bit etc.). Sometimes you don't need to start everything from scratch in order to make stuff work. |
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