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Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
179
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Posted - 2012.08.19 19:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
I believe all of us that are really in Factional Warfare agree that the countless masses of farming alts in FW is a bad thing. I think we all agree that hundreds of gunless frigs speed tanking plexes brings nothing positive to the game. What we can't agree on is how to fix it. I've heard horrible ideas and then I have heard some bad ideas, but no real good ideas yet. Hopefully my idea is good, but I am not entirely sold on it yet. Right now I am just brainstorming, and hopefully collectively we can refine it into a good idea or agree that it's trash and move on.
So without further ado: Change the LP handed out from plexes from a flat rate to a rate multiplied by the amount of wartargets in system. Currently for a major you get 25k LP, regardless if you are alone in system or there are 40 enemy militia members. I propose we change it so for a major you get something like 10,000(x) LP, where x = number of wartargets in system. So if there are zero wartargets in system to defend, then you get zero LP. That right there pretty much eliminates the countless gunless farmer alts. It's true someone could plex with an alt in the opposite militia in system, but the payout would be less than other activities one can partake in with two characters. This would also give greater rewards to the small fleets that plex enemey home systems, as they will now be splitting a much bigger reward.
Once number of enemy militia becomes a factor in the amount of LP we can start giving LP for defensive plexing as well. There shouldn't be any difference in LP payouts between offensive and defensive plexing, both are helpful. Since you only get LP for plexing with enemy militia in system, you are only getting LP for defensively plexing when the enemy is actively plexing you.
There should be a cap placed on the multiplier of like 10 or 15. We don't want to incentivize militias to all locate in one system. We want different corps and alliances in the militia spread out over many systems, fighting in many systems in small gangs right? Hopefully putting a cap on the LP multiplier will help achieve this or at least not promote the opposite.
So what do you guys think? Simply by making LP a simple equation instead of a flat rate we get rid of the alt farmers well at the same time increasing payouts to those in militia doing it right. |
Amett
The Forsworn Protectorate
13
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Posted - 2012.08.19 19:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
yeah fw is really a great chance for pvp or roleplaying and this massive focus on farming is not the way forward. i dont have a solution but i dont think it would be hard to fix, ccp are smart enough after all :) |
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
179
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 19:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Oh I forgot one thing. When plexing with zero wartargets in system you should get zero LP, but the amount the system gets contested should be double or even triple (maybe even 4x?). Militias are still going to need to flip empty systems to get get to higher tiers. Since they are getting no rewards we don't want to make it longer, it's already going to be a bit mind-numbingly dull.
I suspect militas will not want people flipping systems under their nose, especially so quickly like if there was a 4x multiplier, so send out a notification in militia chat. "'Plex' in 'System' is under attack and we have no forces in the area". |
Dan Carter Murray
84
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Posted - 2012.08.19 19:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lucy Ferrr wrote:I believe all of us that are really in Factional Warfare agree that the countless masses of farming alts in FW is a bad thing. I think we all agree that hundreds of gunless frigs speed tanking plexes brings nothing positive to the game. What we can't agree on is how to fix it. I've heard horrible ideas and then I have heard some bad ideas, but no real good ideas yet. Hopefully my idea is good, but I am not entirely sold on it yet. Right now I am just brainstorming, and hopefully collectively we can refine it into a good idea or agree that it's trash and move on.
So without further ado: Change the LP handed out from plexes from a flat rate to a rate multiplied by the amount of wartargets in system. Currently for a major you get 25k LP, regardless if you are alone in system or there are 40 enemy militia members. I propose we change it so for a major you get something like 10,000(x) LP, where x = number of wartargets in system. So if there are zero wartargets in system to defend, then you get zero LP. That right there pretty much eliminates the countless gunless farmer alts. It's true someone could plex with an alt in the opposite militia in system, but the payout would be less than other activities one can partake in with two characters. This would also give greater rewards to the small fleets that plex enemey home systems, as they will now be splitting a much bigger reward.
Once number of enemy militia becomes a factor in the amount of LP we can start giving LP for defensive plexing as well. There shouldn't be any difference in LP payouts between offensive and defensive plexing, both are helpful. Since you only get LP for plexing with enemy militia in system, you are only getting LP for defensively plexing when the enemy is actively plexing you.
There should be a cap placed on the multiplier of like 10 or 15. We don't want to incentivize militias to all locate in one system. We want different corps and alliances in the militia spread out over many systems, fighting in many systems in small gangs right? Hopefully putting a cap on the LP multiplier will help achieve this or at least not promote the opposite.
So what do you guys think? Simply by making LP a simple equation instead of a flat rate we get rid of the alt farmers well at the same time increasing payouts to those in militia doing it right.
no.
one of the best "solutions" so far is to require all NPCs to be dead. farming = done.
of course, my solution is best.
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Amett
The Forsworn Protectorate
13
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Posted - 2012.08.19 19:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lucy Ferrr wrote:Oh I forgot one thing. When plexing with zero wartargets in system you should get zero LP, but the amount the system gets contested should be double or even triple (maybe even 4x?). Militias are still going to need to flip empty systems to get get to higher tiers. Since they are getting no rewards we don't want to make it longer, it's already going to be a bit mind-numbingly dull.
I suspect militas will not want people flipping systems under their nose, especially so quickly like if there was a 4x multiplier, so send out a notification in militia chat. "'Plex' in 'System' is under attack and we have no forces in the area".
i agree damn good idea and maybe have it where u warp to the button instead of the beacon? |
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
179
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 19:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Dan Carter Murray wrote:[ no.
one of the best "solutions" so far is to require all NPCs to be dead. farming = done.
of course, my solution is best.
Well that doesn't kill farming, it would still be done as a quasi-afk activity that is equally as lucrative. Most people don't totally afk plexs now, every once in awhile the rats will get a lucky hit and you got hit your repper. That would just change how people farm. The rats are terribly weak, making them stronger hurts PvP within plexes. People would just speed tank them still and every so often tab to that screen kill everything on field real fast, tab back out. There are enough minor and medium plexes that farmers would still flourish with the same lucrative rewards. |
Dan Carter Murray
85
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Posted - 2012.08.19 20:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lucy Ferrr wrote:Dan Carter Murray wrote: no.
one of the best "solutions" so far is to require all NPCs to be dead. farming = done.
of course, my solution is best.
Well that doesn't kill farming, it would still be done as a quasi-afk activity that is equally as lucrative. Most people don't totally afk plexs now, every once in awhile the rats will get a lucky hit and you got hit your repper. That would just change how people farm. The rats are terribly weak, making them stronger hurts PvP within plexes. People would just speed tank them still and every so often tab to that screen kill everything on field real fast, tab back out. There are enough minor and medium plexes that farmers would still flourish with the same lucrative rewards. Edit: Although I admit seeing guns on ships, and maybe even some T1 cruisers would be a slight improvement, but only slight. They would still be farmer alts, they would still be pve fit, and they would still warp off the second you warp in. And if you do manage to catch one, they still won't provide a good fight. I much rather have a good fight than just another number on a killboard.
Who is your main again?
Also, this (not just this thread though): http://i.imgur.com/CrDa3.png |
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
180
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 20:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
I didn't post with my main because what militia I am in is not relevant. Pointing out alt posting, especially on a mechanic thread like this as opposed to a thread about eve politics, is always a deflect when you don't have a logical argument. I told you why you're idea is dumb and poorly thought out. You have yet to come up with a single rebuttal to anything I've said. You're only response is posting a dumb picture. Why you so mad bro? Is it because this idea kills your LP farming activities, or because it creates more PvP targets. You appear to want a bunch of PvE targets in plexes that won't be able to provide a good fight.
I am totally open and receptive to criticism, even angry stupid criticism (which is the only type a person like you is likely to provide) as long as its on the idea. You have failed to do so, and have only tried to derail the thread. We should be on the same team, trying to find a mechanic that provides the most fun for everyone. So please tell me why your idea of making plexs like mini missions with rat killing in empty systems is better. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
194
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 21:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
There is nothing wrong on farmer alts.
After inferno more people than ever before are participating systems control war.
Farmer alts play more FW than those who just use FW as free war dec.
Farmer alts can be easily stopped if players want to do it, but as it requires undocking and jumping more than one jump it is impossible for most players.
It is about what players should do, not what CCP should do. |
Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate
84
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 21:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Two options, imho....
1 - Remove the fail-tard concept of docking rights from sov in lo-sec. That way PvP (system staging/station access) won't be influenced by crap-fit, noob toon T1 frig farming alts. This is my personal choice as I absolutely loathe anything and everything associated with plexing, but it would still have "meaning" for those that wish to farm or plex "for real" - i.e. LP/tier payout level.
2 - Require NPC's to be killed in additon to the timer.
Until then....FW can lick my brown eye. |
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Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
17
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Posted - 2012.08.19 21:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Dan Carter Murray wrote:no.
one of the best "solutions" so far is to require all NPCs to be dead. farming = done.
of course, my solution is best.
I agree with this. Even if it's you.
While it would not fix all the problems FW has right now, it would instantly put a stop to all those week old plexing alts. Even if they would still manage to run minor plexes, that would reduce the number of plexes available to farming alts, would stop AFK plexing and lower the overall LP income.
And it's such an easy fix! pew pew |
Lord BryanII
6
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Posted - 2012.08.19 22:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
requiring that the npcs get killed to finish the plex would have the following changes
1. Would just take an extra few days or weeks in order for the farmer to get skills necessary to do it. May see a slight drop in farmers. Overall, no major change will happen and farmers will still flee at any sign of hostiles
2. Or, you get a very large drop in farmers and that would cause a significant slow down in FW. Much harder to get systems to vulnerable and upgrade them causing war zone control to be much, much more difficult to change. This will also drastically damage low sec. With fewer numbers in low sec, FW pvp'ers will have less targets, pirates will have less targets, merchants will have less people to sell goods too, freight haulers will have less work to do. FW LP store goods will have their value increase though and hi-sec will get more populated as people flock back to missions and incursions |
Dread Pirate Pete
Tribal Core Defiant Legacy
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 22:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
The main problem with farmers v pvp in FW is that the jump away when someone comes after them.
Either make it hard for them to run: Give Button Scram and Web
Or punish them for fleeing: Lose LP for warping off |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
573
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 02:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
I think this is a decent idea. I generally plex in systems that have allot of wartargets anyway. Capturing a military complex in a busy system should pay more than capturing one in an abandoned system.
LOL at people thinking shooting all the npcs alone will really fix FW. It won't.
Shooting crosses is still just pve. It will at least balance things so that one militia doesn't have a huge advantage over the other. But its not going to fix fw. At least not if you think the the war should focus on pvp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
418
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 03:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
Queue Super Chair's post: 1. Kill all rats requirement 2. Timer reset to zero
/thread
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Dan Carter Murray
86
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 08:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lucy Ferrr wrote:I didn't post with my main because what militia I am in is not relevant. Pointing out alt posting, especially on a mechanic thread like this as opposed to a thread about eve politics, is always a deflect when you don't have a logical argument. I told you why you're idea is dumb and poorly thought out. You have yet to come up with a single rebuttal to anything I've said. You're only response is posting a dumb picture. Why you so mad bro? Is it because this idea kills your LP farming activities, or because it creates more PvP targets. You appear to want a bunch of PvE targets in plexes that won't be able to provide a good fight. I am totally open and receptive to criticism, even angry stupid criticism (which is the only type a person like you is likely to provide) as long as its on the idea. You have failed to do so, and have only tried to derail the thread. We should be on the same team, trying to find a mechanic that provides the most fun for everyone. So please tell me why your idea of making plexs like mini missions with rat killing in empty systems is better.
Attacking isn't a downhill battle, it should be uphill.
Having rats f*ck your day up if you're a gunless alt is just fine with me.
It really doesn't take THAT MUCH effort to kill the rats to begin with.
Plus, you can't just look at a single part of FW mechanics. gaining territory isn't supposed to be easy. removing plexes or removing the "mini mission" is ridiculous. that makes attacking a downhill battle for gunless alts.
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Dan Carter Murray
86
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 08:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Queue Super Chair's post: 1. Kill all rats requirement 2. Timer reset to zero
/thread
yes to #1
no to #2
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Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
102
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 11:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
I have no problems with people farming plexes, however they should use real ships and size should matter here to reward people which have the balls to come with something larger than a nano frigate.
How to achive this? Easy:
a) Make the timer count down only if no NPC are on grid. This will force people to fit guns. While it will have only minor impact on small plexes this will have huge impact on larger ones. Therefore we need also...
b) Reduce the timer on medium and large plexes. I think all plexes should have a timer of only 15 minutes.
c) Raise the contestation effect for medium and large plexes. I should bring more to do a large plex than a small plex. Maybe you should also rebalance LP payout so that small plexes get LP halved while large gets them doubled. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
258
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 12:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
Why try to use a band-aid on a gushing artery?
Plexing is not the issue, never was, the whole damn mechanic is .. used to be the fact that it was just for honour/epeen (ie. RP food) .. now its pretty much all the changes they made, from WZC, lockouts, useless system upgrades to over-incentivization.
We asked to have our herpes cured, but apparently neglected to mention that it should not be by using a GMO gonorrhoea strain. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
575
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Queue Super Chair's post: 1. Kill all rats requirement 2. Timer reset to zero
/thread
Reset to zero is bad. Some amount of a countdown might be ok. But only if there is an enemy on grid. Lots of times I will fight someone and end up in structure. If I warp off to repair (whcih is often several jumps away thanks to station lock outs) and come back I don't want the plex I just fought for to be gone.
Also resetting to zero is too draconian and will just make this blobby. Get in huge blob and keep making rounds resetting all the enemy plexes. You will no longer be able to split up a blob by having your gang split up and run seperate timers. The blob can stay together and just enter each plex unduing your work. Total reset is a bad overreaction.
Some sort of countdown can make sense. But really only after they do obvious things like - well let us know when our military complexes are being attacked.
I think the plex should start counting back say 2 or 3 minutes. It might also just count back at half speed. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
422
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Posted - 2012.08.20 16:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dan Carter Murray wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Queue Super Chair's post: 1. Kill all rats requirement 2. Timer reset to zero /thread
yes to #1 no to #2 Dude, I don't think you understand the meaning of "/thread" And yeah, meant timer counts down back to zero, not quick instantaneous reset. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
422
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Amett wrote:yeah fw is really a great chance for pvp or roleplaying and this massive focus on farming is not the way forward. i dont have a solution but i dont think it would be hard to fix, ccp are smart enough after all :) The massive focus on farming is here because people prefer to point out flaws rather than positives. There is massive levels of pvp, and as for the role play stuff. Role play corporations/alliances for the most part have more fun posting on IGS than actually playing the game. (with the notable exception of Electus Matari and Jade) |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
161
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kill all rats is something that just seems so right. I'm amazed it wasn't there always.
Elite frigates with webs will stop speed tanking, but may make the minors too hard, I dunno, I don't do minors. It's not that I'm opposed to speed tanking the dps. But if you can't kill the rats you shouldn't 'win' the LP. That's just basic warfare 101.
Give the button some AI. It would be easy to program a button that remembers "player A" has 14 minutes in this plex, while "player B" has zero minutes here.
Plex's have ship restrictions. It should be easy to restrict frigates from majors as well. If 'kill all rats' were implemented, then I suppose a 4 man fleet of frigs might be acceptable in majors. My point is: Solo frigates in a major is a serious flaw.
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drunk asfck
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.08.20 19:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
lets not im enoying the farm lol |
David Himmel
Dark Circle Enforcement Templis Dragonaors
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 21:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
IMO the problems isn't that farming exist but the fact that s worth it. Nobody cap since it would mean losing farming spot. Holding systems isnt worth LP and LP is where the money s at. Not the various discount. One systems every few ly for that is more than enough.
Giving LP for defence would just worsened the problem.
I propose:
1. give a LP wallet to corps. 2. give an LP revenu per systems. More gate in the systeme = more lp. Or just give a fixed rate. 3. Share this LP beetween all the faction warfare corps based on their participation and following some mysterious algorithm .
If you got your math right and it s more worth it to hold system than farm them, the effect of farming should be lessen. If a corp contributed in capping a system they got a good share. Same if they kill a lot of enemy ships.
If you want to make sure they contributed in capping a system just look at a given time frame before it was done. If they plexed during that time frame they should get a share.
The share given should be on the global result and not in a system by system basis. The corps/alliance could then use the LP as they see fit. Share among their member or just fill their hangar with hookbill who care.
Farmer would still have their lps but it would be more worth it to cap/defend systems and fight. |
Lilly Tebron
Venhi
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 01:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
David Himmel wrote:IMO the problems isn't that farming exist but the fact that s worth it. Nobody cap since it would mean losing farming spot. Holding systems isnt worth LP and LP is where the money s at. Not the various discount. One systems every few ly for that is more than enough.
Giving LP for defence would just worsened the problem.
I propose:
1. give a LP wallet to corps. 2. give an LP revenu per systems. More gate in the systeme = more lp. Or just give a fixed rate. 3. Share this LP beetween all the faction warfare corps based on their participation and following some mysterious algorithm .
If you got your math right and it s more worth it to hold system than farm them, the effect of farming should be lessen. If a corp contributed in capping a system they got a good share. Same if they kill a lot of enemy ships.
If you want to make sure they contributed in capping a system just look at a given time frame before it was done. If they plexed during that time frame they should get a share.
The share given should be on the global result and not in a system by system basis. The corps/alliance could then use the LP as they see fit. Share among their member or just fill their hangar with hookbill who care.
Farmer would still have their lps but it would be more worth it to cap/defend systems and fight.
The shared pool of LP distributed to corps/alliances has good intentions but doesn't really work out in the end, at least in this incarnation. It completely disregards general militia, and puts the onus on the corp directors to reward individual efforts which makes corp politics much more problematic ("Hey, I did more plexing than Player X, why did he get more LP than I did???") Which just leads to more bickering amongst FW players, and Lord knows we have enough of that already.
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David Himmel
Dark Circle Enforcement Templis Dragonaors
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 02:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
Maybe this is system won't work. But it would be nice to think of any way to make it worth while to cap and hold systems.
As long as it will be more profitable to plex than actually cap, farming will be an issue.
BTW i really like the ideas throwned out there about changing plexing so you have to wipe the rats. Makes way more sense to just run around a fleet shouting "it s mine", If you want to claim sovereignty you have to show it by presence; it's not just for games it's a fact of history. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
161
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 04:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
David Himmel wrote:IMO the problems isn't that farming exist but the fact that s worth it. Nobody cap since it would mean losing farming spot. Holding systems isnt worth LP and LP is where the money s at. Not the various discount. One systems every few ly for that is more than enough.
Giving LP for defence would just worsened the problem.
I propose:
1. give a LP wallet to corps. 2. give an LP revenu per systems. More gate in the systeme = more lp. Or just give a fixed rate. 3. Share this LP beetween all the faction warfare corps based on their participation and following some mysterious algorithm .
If you got your math right and it s more worth it to hold system than farm them, the effect of farming should be lessen. If a corp contributed in capping a system they got a good share. Same if they kill a lot of enemy ships.
If you want to make sure they contributed in capping a system just look at a given time frame before it was done. If they plexed during that time frame they should get a share.
The share given should be on the global result and not in a system by system basis. The corps/alliance could then use the LP as they see fit. Share among their member or just fill their hangar with hookbill who care.
Farmer would still have their lps but it would be more worth it to cap/defend systems and fight.
Not many players will want their LP to go into a corp fund. Hell, most players don't join corps so they can help the corp at all. Most of them join so they can benefit personally. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
202
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 08:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
all your solutions seems to be idea like 'NPC SHOULD DEFEND !'
i got two ideas which are may help a bit.
1. you get reduced lp from attacking vulnerable systems.
2. defence plexing does not give lp, but defence plexing adds some lp to system upgrade.
This may give some benefits to defend but it does not give any advantage for those who want to attack and defends same system at same time with opposing militia alts. |
Brother ARRMA
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 16:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
nothing wrong with fw plex's tbh
only problem is all you fags keep crying no matter what changes ccp make
aww are all u ubber pvpers that upset coz u cant kill gunles frigs lmfao go fight ppl who are not pve'ing you pansys i have pvped in many a plex but mostly if opisistion wants to fight its the same through all eve if some1 dnt wana fight they try avoide it u might get lucky and catch and gank them but lets face it thats ganking not real pvp
now keep the whine tears coming about fw plex's they make me lol while i make billions farming fw o and yes i do pvp in fw also |
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