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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 22 post(s) |
xxxAlloxxx
Origin. Black Legion.
34
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Posted - 2012.08.22 03:26:00 -
[331] - Quote
Love it, already planning how my future frig gangs will be setup.
As long as there is care taken in how these are implemented and it dos not get out of hand I think it will be a very nice addition to the game. Newest Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02OAZ3W0fXs |
Zedd Al'thor
The Hatchery Team Liquid
1
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Posted - 2012.08.22 04:15:00 -
[332] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zedd Al'thor wrote: Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.
You cannot be serious. Logi frigs in no way replace triage Carriers. -Liang
You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making.
The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?" & "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?"
The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers.
Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to afk rep structures which is currently the domain of triage carriers.
My argument can be found in these links: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004 |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1969
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Posted - 2012.08.22 04:20:00 -
[333] - Quote
Zedd Al'thor wrote:You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making. The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?" & "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?" The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers. Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to afk rep structures which is currently the domain of triage carriers. My argument can be found in these links: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004
No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
55
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Posted - 2012.08.22 04:23:00 -
[334] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zedd Al'thor wrote:You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making. The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?" & "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?" The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers. Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to afk rep structures which is currently the domain of triage carriers. My argument can be found in these links: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004 No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now? -Liang Could it be that despite being cheep and quick to train it is not practical? Your statements are understood better and easier than his arguments. |
Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
187
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Posted - 2012.08.22 04:44:00 -
[335] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zedd Al'thor wrote:You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making. The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?" & "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?" The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers. Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to afk rep structures which is currently the domain of triage carriers. My argument can be found in these links: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004 No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now? -Liang
Have to agree with Liang on this (rare for me).
Don't forget the key difference between these and a carriers. The tank. Sure perhaps you could get a bunch of these frigs together to do the job of a triage carrier. But warp in an alpha fleet and it will be like cooking popcorn. And in a matter of moments, poof, the logi frigate menace is gone and you have an epic looking killboard to brag about :D Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |
Selaya Ataru
Pink Kitten Kommando To The Moon
12
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Posted - 2012.08.22 04:59:00 -
[336] - Quote
Zedd Al'thor wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So then they should take the nerf bat to destroyers, they take the same amount of time to train as a decent logi frig and can gank dozens of ships with no worry about having a negative sec status to on on your account that can't be biomassed. If you want to take that exploit in to consideration then everything that takes less than 51 days to use need to be nerfed. Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.
Tell me how 10.000 people shouldnt be able to rep structures.
You are either a very, very bad troll, or you have serious mental problems.
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Thryson
Bondage Goat Zombie
18
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Posted - 2012.08.22 06:38:00 -
[337] - Quote
T2 cloaky logi frigs would be a hell of a boost to the lacking black ops usage and might be worth looking into. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
264
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Posted - 2012.08.22 08:32:00 -
[338] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now?-Liang Head of nail, meet hammer.
Try to run the numbers. The sheer amount of POSpreys, let alone proposed logistic frigates, needed to equal or surpass the output of a single dirt cheap triage carrier will probably make your brain explode
There is not a single entity in Eve that would use 1000 people to do what a handful can do in the same time .. not even Goons (they supposedly do stuff for lulz and POS/module repping is NOT fun by any definition of the word).
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
904
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Posted - 2012.08.22 10:01:00 -
[339] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ryelek d'Entari wrote:Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but... The new player career agent mission arcs reward several ships, including multiple copies of the old mining frigates (now logistics frigates). Last I checked, you get one of the current mining frigates (e.g. Navitas) in each of the trade and industrial chains. That was fine then, since the mining frigates could be used effectively for starter hauling, starter mining, or even starter combat L1 missioning reasonably effectively. However, with this change, new players will be stuck with multiple hulls of a ship that they're almost certainly not going to be using for its intended role (logi) anytime soon. Might it not be a good idea to retrofit the career agent missions to reward different ships instead? Here's the current list:
- Exploration career agent rewards 1x exploration frigate
- Trade career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Industrial career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x other combat frigate
- Advanced military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x destroyer (and another attack frigate that you get blown up in)
Rewarding a frigate with remote rep bonuses during the trade and industrial career lines seems... odd. However there no longer seems to be a decent starter industry ship (will the industry career agents be changed to give the ORE mining frigate and skillbook, when available? Seems odd.) and the most appropriate starter trade ship is clearly the exploration frigate with its oversize cargo bay. (also, random related career agent ship reward oddity - Gallente get a Tristan at the end of the Military mission, whereas the other races get Punisher/Merlin/Rifter. Seems Gallente should get an Incursus for consistency as it's part of the same combat frigate group) Yep, those rewards have not been updated in quite a while. I'll double check tomorrow to make sure our New Player Experience team has a defect in the system for it (I think they already do).
I already have a defect on me regarding this We definitely plan to replace the old NPE given ships by the new ORE frigate when it comes out yes. |
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Neotin Nahrain
The Praxis Initiative Gentlemen's Agreement
24
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Posted - 2012.08.22 10:54:00 -
[340] - Quote
A slight problem might be that this change is carried out at the same time as the destroyers re-balance would be. So when everyone would be trying the new and improved destroyers defined as anti frigate platform - this would be the worst time to test t1 frigates. I.e. - no high hopes as it is.
My main problem with this change is the durability of t1 ships. It is acceptable to be in hurricane/drake. But almost everything under that (merlin is an exception) is pretty much free target for destroyers. Same with t1 logi cruisers - they are good in logi output but the moment anything spits on them - they die. If there were t2 logi frigates - now that would change stuff a lot more. Otherwise - kitsunes - best logi in frigate gangs. |
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Desiderya
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
64
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Posted - 2012.08.22 12:22:00 -
[341] - Quote
Neotin Nahrain wrote: But almost everything under that (merlin is an exception) is pretty much free target for destroyers.
No. It always depends on the setups pitted against each other. Destroyers have an edge, but they can be killed by a lone frigate as easily as they can chew through them. |
Tamiya Sarossa
Hedion University Amarr Empire
185
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Posted - 2012.08.22 13:47:00 -
[342] - Quote
All I can say is that I'd much rather run into one of these logi frigs than a griffin when soloing, and that despite being pretty confident that they'll have a battlefield life expectancy similar to that of Terran marines I'll have a lot of fun flying them as well. |
Nexus Controller
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.08.22 15:42:00 -
[343] - Quote
Given the fitting requirements (PG/CPU), it looks like deadspace medium RR fits in the logistics frigates with MAPC's. Is this by design? Looks pretty good if so.
:) |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
12
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Posted - 2012.08.22 19:38:00 -
[344] - Quote
Hey what's up with the align times on these? I can just about travel with GCC in my incursus, taking only occasional structure damage, but these will probably die instantly. Not helped by the fact that they will most likely have GCC permanently.
How about some pirate love CCP. |
Anaphylacti
Catalyst ops
2
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Posted - 2012.08.22 20:22:00 -
[345] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Hey what's up with the align times on these? I can just about travel with GCC in my incursus, taking only occasional structure damage, but these will probably die instantly. Not helped by the fact that they will most likely have GCC permanently.
How about some pirate love CCP.
They've clearly shown how much they love pirates by wanting to make gate guns kill triage carriers in 4 1/2 minutes. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
143
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Posted - 2012.08.22 20:35:00 -
[346] - Quote
Anaphylacti wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Hey what's up with the align times on these? I can just about travel with GCC in my incursus, taking only occasional structure damage, but these will probably die instantly. Not helped by the fact that they will most likely have GCC permanently.
How about some pirate love CCP. They've clearly shown how much they love pirates by wanting to make gate guns kill triage carriers in 4 1/2 minutes.
I can't believe I am doing this and defending Greyscale, but please keep up with the times:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1830800#post1830800 |
Alara IonStorm
3014
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Posted - 2012.08.22 20:54:00 -
[347] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote: but please keep up with the times:
The times become much harder to keep up with when they are posted on page 40.
No dummy there is peace in the Middle East now. How could you have not read it, it was posted right here at the bottom of the fall style section. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
144
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Posted - 2012.08.22 21:29:00 -
[348] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: but please keep up with the times:
The times become much harder to keep up with when they are posted on page 40. No dummy there is peace in the Middle East now. How could you have not read it, it was posted right here at the bottom of the fall style section.
I'm pretty sure Greyscale responded before page 40, although no one listened to him. And those shoes they are coming out with this fall are absolutely fabulous. What was that about the Middle East? |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
51
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Posted - 2012.08.23 04:48:00 -
[349] - Quote
Zedd Al'thor wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So then they should take the nerf bat to destroyers, they take the same amount of time to train as a decent logi frig and can gank dozens of ships with no worry about having a negative sec status to on on your account that can't be biomassed. If you want to take that exploit in to consideration then everything that takes less than 51 days to use need to be nerfed. Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.
And most them can already fly an osprey, which can literally do the same. If you have the numbers still do not waste 14 pilots to do the job that can be done by a single pilot. Opportunity cost are too high. Actually you should be able to just buy a triage carrier from the income 13 pilots can generate in one hour ;-) |
Anaphylacti
Catalyst ops
3
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Posted - 2012.08.23 08:26:00 -
[350] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Anaphylacti wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Hey what's up with the align times on these? I can just about travel with GCC in my incursus, taking only occasional structure damage, but these will probably die instantly. Not helped by the fact that they will most likely have GCC permanently.
How about some pirate love CCP. They've clearly shown how much they love pirates by wanting to make gate guns kill triage carriers in 4 1/2 minutes. I can't believe I am doing this and defending Greyscale, but please keep up with the times: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1830800#post1830800
ah yes shame on you for defending Greyscale but thank you for pointing this out to me. Maybe they do have a spot in their heart for pirates after all |
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MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
91
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Posted - 2012.08.23 17:50:00 -
[351] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Don't you care about the fact that the Tormentor used to be the mining frigate so it breaks the pattern of mining frigates becoming logi frigates? Not really, no
This is why CCP devs best devs
Besides, they wanted to make the tormentor into a minigeddon, and it does really look like the front of the geddon "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
CaleAdaire
Research Industry Mining and Support Gatekeepers Universe
53
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Posted - 2012.08.23 19:59:00 -
[352] - Quote
soooo... T2 Logi frigs?
I'm bored... Let's shoot the rocks. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
26
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Posted - 2012.08.24 06:39:00 -
[353] - Quote
I'm kinda sad though because the inquisitor looks MUCH nicer than the tormentor... |
Tub Chil
Heretic University Heretic Nation
22
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Posted - 2012.08.24 07:38:00 -
[354] - Quote
I applaud this idea.
Also what about TII logistic frigs? please don't make me read 18 pages. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1166
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Posted - 2012.08.24 10:29:00 -
[355] - Quote
Tub Chil wrote:I applaud this idea.
Also what about TII logistic frigs? please don't make me read 18 pages.
We have no concrete plans to make a T2 logi frigate. It's an option we're keeping open in case we see the need in the future. |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
12
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Posted - 2012.08.24 10:54:00 -
[356] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Tub Chil wrote:I applaud this idea.
Also what about TII logistic frigs? please don't make me read 18 pages. We have no concrete plans to make a T2 logi frigate. It's an option we're keeping open in case we see the need in the future.
don't do it
please |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
101
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Posted - 2012.08.24 12:25:00 -
[357] - Quote
A T2 logi frig would be fine.
You just can't whine about it ruining 1v1, because it would be 1v2, and the other party could also bring a Kitsune and it would actually be worse than if a T2 logi frig landed on grid. |
Usagi Toshiro
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.08.24 17:44:00 -
[358] - Quote
I think these frigates area a great idea! They will provide a great learning tool for the mechanics of RR fleets. RvB would use these daily and educate a new generation of pilots for the rigors of low/null sec fleet ops.
RvB usually runs Cruiser down for it's fleet engagements. The bigger ships being called primary first. The ability to RR these larger hulls would add a new level of tactics to our fights. It would allow FCs to fly a larger hull and stay on grid longer to call targets. This is a huge plus.
Now I know that logistics ships are called primary in many engagements and would expect no less. What it does bring to the table is new tactics and more ways to learn. This is a huge plus in my book. |
Griffin Omanid
IntersteIIar Moneymakers
13
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Posted - 2012.08.25 03:31:00 -
[359] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:These ships will be replacing the mining frigates that are being displaced by the new ORE frigate, taking the Inquisitor from the Amarr lineup instead because we already stole the Tormentor to make a mini-Armageddon.
Inquisitor: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers Slot layout: 3 H, 2 M, 4 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 51 PWG, 135 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 225 / 500 / 330 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 400 / 200s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.6 / 1470000 / 4.95s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 36km / 700 / 7 Sensor strength: 10 Radar Signature radius: 34 Cargo capacity: 250
Nothing against logi frigs, but you changed the Tormentor with Inferno so you should be easily be able to change it again and make it a logistc frigate. Otherwise the Amarr logistic frig would be the only one which becomes a Stealth Bomber which feels a little bit crazy somehow |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
231
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Posted - 2012.08.25 05:58:00 -
[360] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Basically having super low sig, low skill requirement, super cheap logi is very bad for the game.
They scale without stacking penalty and work well even with poor skills. The benefit they give is out of proportion to both their in game cost and the player skill required to use them. Fighting them requires disproportionate effort, particularly if they are massed (which they will be).
I support your other changes fozzie, but this is a bad, bad idea.
An SFI, a cruiser designed from the ground up to be death to frigates would be unable to fight 2 probes and a merlin. A vagabond or cynabal, also designed as frigate killers would be similarly useless. A dual web autocannon hurricane would at best be able to escape from them with its neuts, and would be unable to break the tanks.
This gives a LARGE advantage for having SMALL advantage in numbers, and the nature of the advantage is one you cannot counter with piloting skill, but only with your own blob with ecm or high alpha anti frigate ships.
Wait, wait ... you're saying those cruisers are designed as frigate killers? Get out. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
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