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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 17 post(s) |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
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Posted - 2012.08.21 00:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
In fleet fight on 08/19/2012, jumped through a gate, ship/client is unresponsive, although the battle is raging around me. An error box pops up with a big red stop sign that says "FATAL. Your character has repeatedly failed loading on the server.This indicates a fault and support personnel need to be notified. Please file a petition. " Read that carefully.
So i file the petition, andf guess what? CCP says the logs show nothing. They can't reimburse. They don't keep logs of that type of error message. I searched client side as well, and game logs contain nothing.
I am confused. Why the hell have a message that directly tells paying customers to file a petition, when all you do is ignore it? Even more, why have the ability to send the error message at all, if you keep no logs of the fault or the message itself?
I mean, they TOLD me to file the petition. Then they dismiss it. Enough is enough. CCP needs to start fixing these issues. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
1713
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Posted - 2012.08.21 00:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sounds like CCP needs to start keeping logs as well. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! |
Charles Baker
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
217
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Posted - 2012.08.21 00:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bawwww more losses happen. |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
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Posted - 2012.08.21 08:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
I know that losses happen, but it's shocking that they send a server sided error to a client and dont have a record. I mean, It actually said "file a petition" then they told me the logs show nothing. They treat us like fools. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
672
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Posted - 2012.08.21 09:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
So your not gonna get your rifter back? ug that is lame. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Samoth Egnoled
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
23
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Posted - 2012.08.21 09:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
I know what you're saying many a time i've been on the recieving end of the 'Working as intended' 'the logs show nothing' ccp GM Customer service. |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
266
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Posted - 2012.08.21 09:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:Bawwww more losses happen.
Quote:So your not gonna get your rifter back? ug that is lame.
The 'OMG CRY SOME MORE' response is getting pretty old. This guy lost a ship because of an error - is it wrong for him to express his disappointment? There are plenty of geniune tears out there, you don't need to go finding them where they aren't. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
672
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Posted - 2012.08.21 09:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Wasn't searching for more tears, was trying to see how big the reals ones were. Are they big enough to be log worthy?
I just saw he was from NC. it was probably a POS he was trying to jump through a jump gate, and lost it due to error. That is a terrible tear to have. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Tiberius Sunstealer
Phantom Soulreavers Axiom Solaris
126
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Posted - 2012.08.21 09:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Don't expect to get it back any time soon. I had an argument with a GM where I was told that the logs showed nothing when I was given a warp error of natural phenomena when I was only just in jump range of a gate. I eventually asked him if I should record my client every time I play to show evidence to which he said that they don't accept player submitted evidence.
Moral of the story is don't expect anything. |
dexington
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
140
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Posted - 2012.08.21 09:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:In fleet fight on 08/19/2012, jumped through a gate, ship/client is unresponsive, although the battle is raging around me.
I know how you feel, i lost an Incursus the other day when the client didn't load correctly after a gate jump.
I really loved that ship i had even given it a special name, i don't care what CCP says the server logs show or don't show. The log in my heart says that something was lost that night, and it can never be replaced. I'm seriously thinking about quitting the game, i pay my monthly subscription to have fun, not to suffer this kind of heartache.
The only thing that gets me trough the day, and sleepless nights filled with tears, is the memory of the time i had with my Incursus. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
854
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Posted - 2012.08.21 09:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
The logs show us a lot of things. Without looking into this myself (in other words, I don't know what was said exactly, I am going solely on what is being said in this thread) you were likely denied reimbursement because of section 1.5 of our reimbursement policies:
"Any losses of any kind resulting from a large-scale player engagement are not covered by this reimbursement policy."
The meme "the logs show nothing" is incredibly incorrect. Our logs show us a lot of information; almost everything that happens on our server. However, the meme came into being due to bad communication of certain GMs in the olden days. We have to deny many reimbursement requests due to issues outside our server (connection issues, ISP issues, a hop/node falling over somewhere on the internet, a user's PC crashing or losing connection, a client error or bug, etc). These things are, obviously, not logged on our server because they don't happen on our server. Unfortunately we do not have unlimited access to every device connected to the internet (if we had I think many government agencies would be interested on how we would be doing that) and thus we have no way to verify what happens on any machine outside our own. That is the use case where you will receive a "nothing was wrong on our server, it must be caused by something outside our server, but we have no way of knowing what that is; sorry, but we cannot reimburse for that" reply.
Tl;dr
- Our logs show almost everything (though gaps do exist; they are not perfect) - We cannot log what is happening outside our servers and thus cannot verify non-server side issues - We only reimburse for server side issues (because EVE is a competitive game and this is the only way we can ensure everyone is treated equally) Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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Blane Xero
The Firestorm Cartel
56
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Posted - 2012.08.21 09:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
There is a world of difference between "The logs show nothing" which is the part people quote. Usually it's actually:
"The logs show nothing which validates your claim for a reimbursement." and so on. The logs showing nothing and the logs not agreeing with you are a world apart. Resident Haruhiist since December 2008.
Laying claim to Out of Pod Experience since 2007, plain and simple. Keep the trash out of Out Of Pod Experience, If it's EVE Related or deserves a Lock, it does not belong here. |
Rutger Janssen
Xanadu
1
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Posted - 2012.08.21 09:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
GM Homonoia wrote:- Our logs show almost everything (though gaps do exist; they are not perfect)
Yes they're not, and if you report something isn't logged which should be(GM say they should see it), they do nothing with it, unless you press the issue hard. (3 petitions, 2 bug reports and 20 months later, finally some progress but not there yet). Actually, you even a get senior GM say that the logs aren't flawed. But that they just can't log everything due to the scope. |
Implying Implications
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
206
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sorry for your loss. Nah, not really. püåpüÉpüàn+P |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
11
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
i had a gm say to me
"yeah we know fleet warping to a bookmark at range wasn't working, but we fixed it now. not going to reimburse since individual warp at range was working fine"
yep
Quote: This issue has been fixed in the recent patch that was released on August 16th and should no longer occur. We apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused. Unfortunately we will not be able to provide any reimbursements related to this issue because although a squad leader may not have been able to issue a squad warp, individual pilots were still fully capable of warping their own ships.
never mind the fact that squad members may not have said bookmark, squad members may have been instructed to wait for warp, the squad may want to warp at the same time etc. nope, 100% player fault
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March rabbit
R.I.P. Legion Red Alliance
243
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Wasn't searching for more tears, was trying to see how big the reals ones were. Are they big enough to be log worthy? well. You paid for service and got nothing. And now this is totally up to you to respect yourself and request service for your paid money. Or keep paying and saying: it's ok, no big loss, etc.....
"Logs show nothing" is ok. I have such cases from my customers when i can't even detect any errors. But when i report error i log it and process. |
Swordfingers
Restless Obsession
25
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
So you lost connection/crashed, the game told you to send petition, you did send it, they looked at it and saw nothing extraordinary or worthy of reimbursment and closed your petition. The question is, why are you complaining? The game didn't say petition to get your ship back. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
672
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
dexington
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
140
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back.
Agree, CCP should provide reimbursement for network latency related issues. Then i would attach a big fat red button to my keyboard, that would enable ipfw delay rules for some good old rubberband lag. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
Swordfingers wrote:So you lost connection/crashed, the game told you to send petition, you did send it, they looked at it and saw nothing extraordinary or worthy of reimbursment and closed your petition. The question is, why are you complaining? The game didn't say petition to get your ship back.
nowhere did I say I crashed. As a matter of fact, i stated that everything else was happening working around me. I was just stuck. Once my ship died, I could affect actions in game. At no point did I crash or have to relog. The mesage stated that there was a bug and that support needed to be made aware.
@ GM Homonoia: As above, I in no way said I crashed. I didn't. I jumped through a gate. Everything loaded just fine, in real time. But there was a big box on my scree with a server side error message. That in NO way describes what you adressed in your post. Your snide comments about not having access to every device on the internet are uncalled for. Once again, CCP employees feel the need to make disparaging comments toward people who in the end pay their salaries. If all you can do is be smug or condescending, then stay out of the discussion. The fact is that the message implied that the issue was out of my control. My client had zero issues, and my ISP was fine. I didnt get loaded onto the server in a way that I could affect changes. That's the facts of this case. But it was just dismissed by your staff.
This is not the first time i have petitioned a loss. I have NEVER received a reimbursement, and in those instances the GM's reply made sense. In this case, the reply is simply BS. |
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Rutger Janssen
Xanadu
1
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
rodyas wrote:^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back. Bug reports will be stuck with bug hunters untill they can reproduce it. Suppsedly some go straight to QA. 20 months ago the communication between QA and GMs sucked, but it seems better now, atleast if you press them. BH and QA policies leave room for improvement which I'm trying to get them to realize. They'll tell you sometimes what's logged but most of it they won't tell you what's logged due to security. I imagine it would be a long list though. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
672
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:41:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thanks, was mostly wondering if they log problems, that would give a chance to correct the game for it to go away. But with the GMs remarks, seems like that is only a 20% chance to solve a problem.
But with ISP and other things, being good, if they are good, then that chance could go up higher. So as long as other companies doing a good job, then the bug report should work. Suppose other companies have bug workers as well. But just so many companies out there all together. I almost would just kiss that rifter ISK goodbye. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
856
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
rodyas wrote:^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back.
Anything outside the CCP owned servers and network is not covered and we do not accept client side or third party logs for reimbursement requests. They can be faked rather easily. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
857
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
dexington wrote:rodyas wrote:Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back. Agree, CCP should provide reimbursement for network latency related issues. Then i would attach a big fat red button to my keyboard, that would enable ipfw delay rules for some good old rubberband lag.
This, or pulling your network cable, pulling the power plug, resetting your router, or any number of more elaborate tricks that are not all that hard to pull off. All we see is a disconnect or some latency. I know that it really sucks when you lose your ship due to things outside your control, but as these circumstances are very easily faked we simply cannot reimburse in these cases. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
857
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Posted - 2012.08.21 10:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote: @ GM Homonoia: As above, I in no way said I crashed. I didn't. I jumped through a gate. Everything loaded just fine, in real time. But there was a big box on my scree with a server side error message. That in NO way describes what you adressed in your post. Your snide comments about not having access to every device on the internet are uncalled for. Once again, CCP employees feel the need to make disparaging comments toward people who in the end pay their salaries. If all you can do is be smug or condescending, then stay out of the discussion. The fact is that the message implied that the issue was out of my control. My client had zero issues, and my ISP was fine. I didnt get loaded onto the server in a way that I could affect changes. That's the facts of this case. But it was just dismissed by your staff.
This is not the first time i have petitioned a loss. I have NEVER received a reimbursement, and in those instances the GM's reply made sense. In this case, the reply is simply BS.
You seem to misinterpret my post. The second part of my post (the part about disconnection and latency) was not in response to your description of events, it was in response to the "the logs show nothing meme".
In your particular case you were likely denied reimbursement because it was a large fleet engagement. The symptoms you describe are actually cause for reimbursement if they happen outside a large fleet engagement (if we can verify the cause, of course).
I was in no way trying to be smug or condescending. I was simply trying to clarify where the meme "the logs show nothing" came from; which was bad communication in the past on our part. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
857
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Posted - 2012.08.21 11:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Rutger Janssen wrote:rodyas wrote:^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back. Bug reports will be stuck with bug hunters untill they can reproduce it. Suppsedly some go straight to QA. 20 months ago the communication between QA and GMs sucked, but it seems better now, atleast if you press them. BH and QA policies leave room for improvement which I'm trying to get them to realize. They'll tell you sometimes what's logged but most of it they won't tell you what's logged due to security. I imagine it would be a long list though.
We have completely redesigned and re-implemented protocols between customer support and QA a little over 2 years ago (taking inertia into account your guess of 20 months is actually quite close to that) and we have seen significant improvements in tackling some of the life issues since. Us GMs are really grateful of the support we are receiving from QA these days; they do a wonderful job considering the complexity and stress of their work. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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zictob
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.21 11:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
GM Homonoia wrote:dexington wrote:rodyas wrote:Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back. Agree, CCP should provide reimbursement for network latency related issues. Then i would attach a big fat red button to my keyboard, that would enable ipfw delay rules for some good old rubberband lag. This, or pulling your network cable, pulling the power plug, resetting your router, or any number of more elaborate tricks that are not all that hard to pull off. All we see is a disconnect or some latency. I know that it really sucks when you lose your ship due to things outside your control, but as these circumstances are very easily faked we simply cannot reimburse in these cases.
ok tell me pls? where me fault in this situation : my alt was at cover ops ship in cloak. 100% cloak was on. and it was animation at ship that he cloaked. i was 250km out from gate. there was netral camp at gate. and after some time i see that inter alight on me. and when he was 20 km near me he start scramble me. AND IT WAS cloaking animation on my ship. after that i write petition and gm answer me : "server works fine (lol y ). all logs ok......" |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
857
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Posted - 2012.08.21 11:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
zictob wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:dexington wrote:rodyas wrote:Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back. Agree, CCP should provide reimbursement for network latency related issues. Then i would attach a big fat red button to my keyboard, that would enable ipfw delay rules for some good old rubberband lag. This, or pulling your network cable, pulling the power plug, resetting your router, or any number of more elaborate tricks that are not all that hard to pull off. All we see is a disconnect or some latency. I know that it really sucks when you lose your ship due to things outside your control, but as these circumstances are very easily faked we simply cannot reimburse in these cases. ok tell me pls? where me fault in this situation : my alt was at cover ops ship in cloak. 100% cloak was on. and it was animation at ship that he cloaked. i was 250km out from gate. there was netral camp at gate. and after some time i see that inter alight on me. and when he was 20 km near me he start scramble me. AND IT WAS cloaking animation on my ship. after that i write petition and gm answer me : "server works fine (lol y ). all logs ok......"
Impossible for me to comment on without studying the case in detail. I can think of at least 3 possibilities off the bat. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
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Posted - 2012.08.21 11:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
GM Homonoia wrote: We have to deny many reimbursement requests due to issues outside our server (connection issues, ISP issues, a hop/node falling over somewhere on the internet, a user's PC crashing or losing connection, a client error or bug, etc). These things are, obviously, not logged on our server because they don't happen on our server. Unfortunately we do not have unlimited access to every device connected to the internet (if we had I think many government agencies would be interested on how we would be doing that) and thus we have no way to verify what happens on any machine outside our own.
Man, if you don't think that what I just quoted doesn't make it sound like you think you're talking to uneducated plebes, then you need some public relations refreshers. Do you really think that your player base, internet gamers, many of whom are extremely tech related, don't know the difference between a server side bug and ISP issues? Get real.
It's simple. ISP and PC were functioning properly, that can be verified on your server. Did I drop connection? NO. So that rules out the ISP scenario. Surely you have logs of incoming connections.
Next the error message that I reproduced in my petition must be triggered by a limited number of issues, right? So that narrows it down considerably. Are any of those triggers client caused? Unlikely. And that message can't be triggered by an ISP connection drop, or i would have never received it.
Pathetic excuses from a lazy and inept attempt to pacify an understandably frustrated customer. |
Rutger Janssen
Xanadu
1
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Posted - 2012.08.21 11:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
To OP, ask the GM if that error is thrown by the client or server. If it's from the server ask him if it should have been logged. If so, there's another bug in the logging system. In any case file a bug report about getting the error and hope BH don't filter it because they can't reproduce. The error would make you think that devs want to look at the issue. |
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