Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 17 post(s) |
Mallak Azaria
558
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
What GM Homonoia is trying to say is 'The logs show nothing' with out actually saying it. Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
Rutger Janssen wrote:To OP, ask the GM if that error is thrown by the client or server. If it's from the server ask him if it should have been logged. If so, there's another bug in the logging system. In any case file a bug report about getting the error and hope BH don't filter it because they can't reproduce. The error would make you think that devs want to look at the issue.
@rutger: According to their response to my original petition, it would appear that they have no cache of when the server throws the error. OFC i'm not allowed to reproduce the GM's response to the petition for fear of their heavy handed ban hammer. To paraphrase, however, they say they don't record when that message is triggered. So if there is an issue, finding it will be like the proverbial needle in a haystack, as there is no flag on the faulty request. |
|
GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
857
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:GM Homonoia wrote: We have to deny many reimbursement requests due to issues outside our server (connection issues, ISP issues, a hop/node falling over somewhere on the internet, a user's PC crashing or losing connection, a client error or bug, etc). These things are, obviously, not logged on our server because they don't happen on our server. Unfortunately we do not have unlimited access to every device connected to the internet (if we had I think many government agencies would be interested on how we would be doing that) and thus we have no way to verify what happens on any machine outside our own. Man, if you don't think that what I just quoted doesn't make it sound like you think you're talking to uneducated plebes, then you need some public relations refreshers. Do you really think that your player base, internet gamers, many of whom are extremely tech related, don't know the difference between a server side bug and ISP issues? Get real. It's simple. ISP and PC were functioning properly, that can be verified on your server. Did I drop connection? NO. So that rules out the ISP scenario. Surely you have logs of incoming connections. Next the error message that I reproduced in my petition must be triggered by a limited number of issues, right? So that narrows it down considerably. Are any of those triggers client caused? Unlikely. And that message can't be triggered by an ISP connection drop, or i would have never received it. Pathetic excuses from a lazy and inept attempt to pacify an understandably frustrated customer.
What you quoted above was NOT in response to your case.
The error you got is cause for reimbursement, but you were part of a fleet engagement which we never reimburse for.
The part you quoted has NO bearing on your case whatsoever; it is simply a clarification of the "logs don't show anything" meme and the issues that often accompany it. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
|
Rutger Janssen
Xanadu
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
GM Homonoia wrote:Rutger Janssen wrote:rodyas wrote:^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back. Bug reports will be stuck with bug hunters untill they can reproduce it. Suppsedly some go straight to QA. 20 months ago the communication between QA and GMs sucked, but it seems better now, atleast if you press them. BH and QA policies leave room for improvement which I'm trying to get them to realize. They'll tell you sometimes what's logged but most of it they won't tell you what's logged due to security. I imagine it would be a long list though. We have completely redesigned and re-implemented protocols between customer support and QA a little over 2 years ago (taking inertia into account your guess of 20 months is actually quite close to that) and we have seen significant improvements in tackling some of the life issues since. Us GMs are really grateful of the support we are receiving from QA these days; they do a wonderful job considering the complexity and stress of their work. Does it also go the other way around? QA needed help from GMs. QA took about 8 months to close the issue with it being unable the reproduce when 4 months after the intial bug report and petition a senior gm said he was fully willing to admit something out of the ordinary happened ( but couldn't reimburse). |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:20:00 -
[35] - Quote
GM Homonoia wrote:
What you quoted above was NOT in response to your case.
The error you got is cause for reimbursement, but you were part of a fleet engagement which we never reimburse for.
You've got to be kidding me? Basically what you're saying is " yes there was an error on our server side, but because the error happened while you were playing the game as intended, we can't help you." That's the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. What if I was a high sec miner in a belt or missioner, and the same error happened, allowing me to be killed my rats? Then you would see the issue? So if we play the game the way it is designed, we forfeit any assistance when your server takes a dump? |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
Spotless, calm a bit, getting oppositional and argumentative isn't going to help |
Rutger Janssen
Xanadu
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:Rutger Janssen wrote:To OP, ask the GM if that error is thrown by the client or server. If it's from the server ask him if it should have been logged. If so, there's another bug in the logging system. In any case file a bug report about getting the error and hope BH don't filter it because they can't reproduce. The error would make you think that devs want to look at the issue. @rutger: According to their response to my original petition, it would appear that they have no cache of when the server throws the error. OFC i'm not allowed to reproduce the GM's response to the petition for fear of their heavy handed ban hammer. To paraphrase, however, they say they don't record when that message is triggered. So if there is an issue, finding it will be like the proverbial needle in a haystack, as there is no flag on the faulty request. If fatal errors are not worth logging, I wonder what is? Genocidal errors? In any case, there's a bug there somewhere that needs fixing :) |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:26:00 -
[38] - Quote
Rutger Janssen wrote:[ If fatal errors are not worth logging, I wonder what is? Genocidal errors? In any case, there's a bug there somewhere that needs fixing :)
If only they could see past their stock responses and actually think about it logically. Of course that would require caring about finding and fixing the issue. |
|
GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
857
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:Rutger Janssen wrote:To OP, ask the GM if that error is thrown by the client or server. If it's from the server ask him if it should have been logged. If so, there's another bug in the logging system. In any case file a bug report about getting the error and hope BH don't filter it because they can't reproduce. The error would make you think that devs want to look at the issue. @rutger: According to their response to my original petition, it would appear that they have no cache of when the server throws the error. OFC i'm not allowed to reproduce the GM's response to the petition for fear of their heavy handed ban hammer. To paraphrase, however, they say they don't record when that message is triggered. So if there is an issue, finding it will be like the proverbial needle in a haystack, as there is no flag on the faulty request.
In most cases (there are several possible causes that can trigger this) that message is triggered it has a very clear (and logged) cause. Without looking into this case it does seem that this is mostly a communication issue. I advise you to simply ask for escalation on this case and a senior will then try to clarify what has happened, however I would be very surprised if this is anything but an error in communication. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
|
dexington
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:27:00 -
[40] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:If only they could see past their stock responses and actually think about it logically. Of course that would require caring about finding and fixing the issue.
u mad bro? GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
|
|
GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
857
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:28:00 -
[41] - Quote
Rutger Janssen wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:Rutger Janssen wrote:rodyas wrote:^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back. Bug reports will be stuck with bug hunters untill they can reproduce it. Suppsedly some go straight to QA. 20 months ago the communication between QA and GMs sucked, but it seems better now, atleast if you press them. BH and QA policies leave room for improvement which I'm trying to get them to realize. They'll tell you sometimes what's logged but most of it they won't tell you what's logged due to security. I imagine it would be a long list though. We have completely redesigned and re-implemented protocols between customer support and QA a little over 2 years ago (taking inertia into account your guess of 20 months is actually quite close to that) and we have seen significant improvements in tackling some of the life issues since. Us GMs are really grateful of the support we are receiving from QA these days; they do a wonderful job considering the complexity and stress of their work. Does it also go the other way around? QA needed help from GMs. QA took about 8 months to close the issue with it being unable the reproduce when 4 months after the intial bug report and petition a senior gm said he was fully willing to admit something out of the ordinary happened ( but couldn't reimburse). And by QA I mean bughunters. And I do appreciate their effort, but if they're preventing a bug being fixed or investigated atleast, I have no choice to become a bit annoying and go on the offense.
QA asks customer support for information on issues on a regular basis. Part of our job is to identify trends and compile any data from our petitions that may lead to the discovery or reproduction steps of a bug. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
|
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Spotless, calm a bit, getting oppositional and argumentative isn't going to help
@ Benny I tend to get upset when people who have the obligation to look into issues like this fail to do so. I also get upset when these same people take the easy way out and claim no knowledge of something, which they have the inherent responsibility to be aware of. To top it all off, they talk down to us. Not all the time, sure, but far too often. |
|
GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
857
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:
What you quoted above was NOT in response to your case.
The error you got is cause for reimbursement, but you were part of a fleet engagement which we never reimburse for.
You've got to be kidding me? Basically what you're saying is " yes there was an error on our server side, but because the error happened while you were playing the game as intended, we can't help you." That's the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. What if I was a high sec miner in a belt or missioner, and the same error happened, allowing me to be killed by rats? Then you would see the issue? So if we play the game the way it is designed, we forfeit any assistance when your server takes a dump?
Look, I would love to help out here and research your case, but I cannot do so on the forums. I really advise you to ask for escalation so a senior can explain what happened and why we can or cannot reimburse. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
|
dexington
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:I tend to get upset when people who have the obligation to look into issues like this fail to do so. I also get upset when these same people take the easy way out and claim no knowledge of something, which they have the inherent responsibility to be aware of. To top it all off, they talk down to us. Not all the time, sure, but far too often.
Don't blame the GM's, no one likes a whiner, it's your own fault. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
dexington wrote: Don't blame the GM's, no one likes a whiner, it's your own fault.
I will take the bait once... just once, and then I will not reply to you again. I am fully versed in the semi-******** art of forum trolling that you are so poorly attempting to practice. However, you are an amateur and this is not amateur hour. There you go, you got your response. |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:34:00 -
[46] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:Spotless, calm a bit, getting oppositional and argumentative isn't going to help @ Benny I tend to get upset when people who have the obligation to look into issues like this fail to do so. I also get upset when these same people take the easy way out and claim no knowledge of something, which they have the inherent responsibility to be aware of. To top it all off, they talk down to us. Not all the time, sure, but far too often. I understand, but getting angry is rarely the most effective form of communication
You are a river, a deep ocean. Imagine the wind as it whistles through the trees in the private Mexican villa in your mind. |
Rutger Janssen
Xanadu
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
GM Homonoia wrote:Rutger Janssen wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:Rutger Janssen wrote:rodyas wrote:^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back. Bug reports will be stuck with bug hunters untill they can reproduce it. Suppsedly some go straight to QA. 20 months ago the communication between QA and GMs sucked, but it seems better now, atleast if you press them. BH and QA policies leave room for improvement which I'm trying to get them to realize. They'll tell you sometimes what's logged but most of it they won't tell you what's logged due to security. I imagine it would be a long list though. We have completely redesigned and re-implemented protocols between customer support and QA a little over 2 years ago (taking inertia into account your guess of 20 months is actually quite close to that) and we have seen significant improvements in tackling some of the life issues since. Us GMs are really grateful of the support we are receiving from QA these days; they do a wonderful job considering the complexity and stress of their work. Does it also go the other way around? QA needed help from GMs. QA took about 8 months to close the issue with it being unable the reproduce when 4 months after the intial bug report and petition a senior gm said he was fully willing to admit something out of the ordinary happened ( but couldn't reimburse). And by QA I mean bughunters. And I do appreciate their effort, but if they're preventing a bug being fixed or investigated atleast, I have no choice to become a bit annoying and go on the offense. QA asks customer support for information on issues on a regular basis. Part of our job is to identify trends and compile any data from our petitions that may lead to the discovery or reproduction steps of a bug.
And what if you only get a petition about it once a year? Because server had a hickup and stuff is lost without a trace eventhough that process should have been logged? About 6 GMs, including you replied to the petitions and yet BH insisted on reproducing it. Yet nothing seemingly was done about it. Someone experienced the same issue 6 months ago, maybe it's been fixed because he has connections, but it still proves my point. |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:37:00 -
[48] - Quote
GM Homonoia wrote: Look, I would love to help out here and research your case, but I cannot do so on the forums. I really advise you to ask for escalation so a senior can explain what happened and why we can or cannot reimburse.
So why have you bothered getting involved at all, giving all sorts of improbable and unlike possibilities in the forum thread? If you would really like to get involved, then get involved. You're a senior GM? Great news! I escalated for a senior GM hours ago. So instead of spending hours replying to forum threads, you can actually help, like you claim you'd love to do.
|
Luis Graca
140
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:38:00 -
[49] - Quote
I wonder wend will people start say ccp devs and gm's are all goons |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:41:00 -
[50] - Quote
Luis Graca wrote:I wonder wend will people start say ccp devs and gm's are all goons
I really couldn't care less if GM Homonoia is the Mittani. He/She/They claim to want to help, then they should help right? Surely CCP gives its' senior GMs the resources necessary to research customer complaints and make decisive decisions? |
|
|
GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
857
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:48:00 -
[51] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:GM Homonoia wrote: Look, I would love to help out here and research your case, but I cannot do so on the forums. I really advise you to ask for escalation so a senior can explain what happened and why we can or cannot reimburse. So why have you bothered getting involved at all, giving all sorts of improbable and unlike possibilities in the forum thread? If you would really like to get involved, then get involved. You're a senior GM? Great news! I escalated for a senior GM hours ago. So instead of spending hours replying to forum threads, you can actually help, like you claim you'd love to do.
It will be picked up in due time. We go through petitions in the order they came in and when your petition is at the front of the queue I may be the one to pick it up, or maybe it will be another senior. I am afraid that this is as far as I can go into things right here. I am glad to hear that you escalated the case and I hope that, whichever senior picks it up, will be able to provide you with a clear and satisfying explanation. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
|
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
325
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:49:00 -
[52] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote: I searched client side as well, and game logs contain nothing. you are in NCdot... ask one of your super pilots how to get good client logs that stand a chance at being accepted in petitions.
(I honestly can't help you because I don't have client access atm and don't know the directions off the top of my head but the Ctrl+Shift+Alt+M monitor has an event log that can apparently be used to impress GMs, your alliance's super pilots have a high chance of knowing the specifics as writing effective reimbursement petitions is part of their skillset) I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
672
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 12:03:00 -
[53] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:Luis Graca wrote:I wonder wend will people start say ccp devs and gm's are all goons I really couldn't care less if GM Homonoia is the Mittani. He/She/They claim to want to help, then they should help right? Surely CCP gives its' senior GMs the resources necessary to research customer complaints and make decisive decisions?
You should relax and calm down. A senior GM is on the way to help you out.
They totally know the pain and frustration you are going through. They have lost just as you have lost, rifters in the midst of a great battle. They know what it is like to lose 3-4 million ISK, and all to the server going ******. They will come rescue you and hopefully reimburse your 4 million ISK or at the very least tell you they feel real bad about your rifter loss. They might even say they feel bad that the goons are taking your moons away, and how your alliances has had a series of downturns for the last two years. They might even say they feel bad, that normal conversations make you feel paranoid, and that they are treating you as if uneducated.
This will all turn out well, just have some faith. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 12:06:00 -
[54] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote: the Ctrl+Shift+Alt+M monitor has an event log that can apparently be used to impress GMs
It seems to clear log after every restart... i can't go past today. |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 12:10:00 -
[55] - Quote
Rodyas I said that stuff earlier but it's been pretty difficult to remain sympathetic to our mate here. I'm sorry. |
Serena Serene
Heretic University Heretic Nation
3020
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 12:11:00 -
[56] - Quote
OP.. you're upset because you lost your ship due to circumstances which shouldn't have happened. That's alright so far.
But you're acting like a jerk. A GM went out of her way to try to explain what possibly could have happened. She wouldn't have to do that. It could have been her lunchbreak or other free time she used to read the forums and just decided to give you some info about the processes in the background.
What she's saying is that there is a rule. A rule they have to obey. Which states they can't reimburse you for losses in large fleet battles. I don't know the reasoning behind that, but that's not the point. Instead of asking in a sensible way you're acting like a child which had his lollipop taken away and lash out. At a person who tried to help you without the need to do so. Who continued to give you advice.
What she said about "the logs show nothing" makes sense and she more than once stated it wasn't a direct response to your OP but to people talking about this meme afterwards, yet you still chose to take it personal.
If you are so upset that you're acting like this, you should take a break, go out, run an hour, get rid of your aggression. If you are like this even if not upset, you aren't a very likeable person. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
672
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 12:16:00 -
[57] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Rodyas I said that stuff earlier but it's been pretty difficult to remain sympathetic to our mate here. I'm sorry.
Yeah true, but he is so weird, its so fun to watch, like a case study. Might call it rifter psychosis, or rifter loss induced psychosis with delusions of education. (At least he has better subjects to e-peen about then most people though) Hopefully CCP hired a cloned Freud turned public relations as a GM to help sort this all out. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
174
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 12:25:00 -
[58] - Quote
Your collective hate, anger, and tears sustain me... |
dexington
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
141
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 12:26:00 -
[59] - Quote
The logs don't show anything because it never happened, he is the stereotype lying space poor whiner. Long story short, he was stupid enough to undock a ship he could not afford to loose. The logs show he didn't scout the gate before he jump, and lost his last drake, and how he can't make any isk running level 4 missions.
Someone please send him a new drake so he will stop crying. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 12:26:00 -
[60] - Quote
@ Serena
They take the time to give half-assed answers. Then when placating doesn't work, they backpedal and say they can't get involved. As for the "rule" it is insane. They can't reimburse losses that happen when playing the game? That's absurd. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |