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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 17 post(s) |
Solstice Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1693
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 13:44:00 -
[91] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:@ solstice.....
I agree? I think? maybe?
*lol* sorry...
This was going on in my mind for a long time, because my ... uhm ... to quote somebody else: ... "ability to game the sandbox" ... led me to several bugs/exploits i've reported and it's discouraging to now know what happens with that.
It's not about me being entitled to information, it's about the simple fact that good customers LOVE to help companies and in the opposite get discouraged by lack of feedback about it.
I added a PS to my last post about it. I'm sure their behaviour isn't on purpose, but it's really discouraging.
My post is semi-related to the thread, aka: Why should we give a damn about what they want us to do, when they are often discouraging us to do it ! Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
346
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 13:46:00 -
[92] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote: [...] This is not the first time i have petitioned a loss. I have NEVER received a reimbursement, and in those instances the GM's reply made sense. In this case, the reply is simply BS.
I think we've found ^^the problem^^ here.
You know that old fable about the boy who cried wolf, OP?
You should stop wasting the GMs' time, too many useless petitions glutting up their queue pissing them off has gotten people warned, or even banned in the past.
There is a fine and proper artistry to wielding verbal scalpels, such that the crap-poster you've slashed doesn't even know they've been cut. But verbal bludgeons -- Those are just fun. |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
7
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Posted - 2012.08.21 13:46:00 -
[93] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote: Note that posting over in the (Issues, Workarounds & Localization forum) with a problem you may have, will always be seen by those of QA as well as bug reports. Where we can dive deeper into any issues you have.
I understand that. However, a cursory glance at activity on both forums tells one which is more viewed and replied to. |
Rutger Janssen
Xanadu
1
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Posted - 2012.08.21 13:50:00 -
[94] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
I am not going to investigate your petition further however, that is for customer support. I can tell you that the error message is not shown due to a fault at our end. In which case, the usual rules will most likely apply:
"Any losses of any kind resulting from a large-scale player engagement are not covered by this reimbursement policy."
Most of your reply is exactly how every petition should be handled. Proper care to the customer with reasoning as to why a decision is made. Not a pre-scripted macro'd response that says nothing to the player to make them think any effort was made to help them. THATS the frustrating part. However...to the part I quoted...that's a pretty broad statement. Is that saying that if you are in a large fleet and you lose your ship due to a game bug, not lag, not client error, not internet connectivity issues but an actual game bug then we don't get reimbursed? What constitutes a large-scale player engagement? 10? 20? 100? 500? Also...it really feels based on the rules that CCP's focus is more on when you DON'T reimburse instead of when you DO. Just saying...it feels that way. One thing that was pounded into me in customer service training is to focus on what you CAN do and not what you CAN'T. Irritating as that sounds, because it really is, it helps make the customer feel better. It maybe was more of a rant why my bug report was discarded, but I did post there https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1557300#post1557300. 0 response from players, GM or devs. Only now with the petition there might be a bit of progress, depending if it's just BHs trying or actually supported by QA devs. |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
7
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Posted - 2012.08.21 13:51:00 -
[95] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:SpotlessBlade wrote: [...] This is not the first time i have petitioned a loss. I have NEVER received a reimbursement, and in those instances the GM's reply made sense. In this case, the reply is simply BS. I think we've found ^^the problem^^ here. You know that old fable about the boy who cried wolf, OP? You should stop wasting the GMs' time, too many useless petitions glutting up their queue pissing them off has gotten people warned, or even banned in the past.
wow, your ability to misconstrue even the most basic written post is... troubling. I never gave any details about previous petitions or how many i may have been hinting at. If you think that demanding proper service for a good/service that you pay for is "wasting their time", i can only suppose that you do not own a car, house, or hell, anything. and I hope that when you move out of your parents basement and earn your own money, that you take companies that treat you like this to task. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
672
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 13:53:00 -
[96] - Quote
^ Ugh I would hate to live your life. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
7
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Posted - 2012.08.21 13:54:00 -
[97] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: Most of your reply is exactly how every petition should be handled. Proper care to the customer with reasoning as to why a decision is made. Not a pre-scripted macro'd response that says nothing to the player to make them think any effort was made to help them. THATS the frustrating part. .
Reminds me of online tech support out of Dell or something where they just copy paste the response out of a word doc with scripted answers, but cannot/will not respond to any questions that stray outside that script. "I'm sorry to hear that Mr. so and so" |
LilRemmy
Synaptic Void AAA Citizens
26
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Posted - 2012.08.21 14:00:00 -
[98] - Quote
Reading the response from a lot of people in this forum I beg to wonder if most EVE players work as customer support or something.
I hope OP gets his ship back and I understand why he would be upset. The rule that you wont get reimbursed no matter what if in big fleet engagement is bullshit also, because I have seen plenty of people get such reimbursement in those cases, even this year. In fact, there is even a thread about a certain goon fleet receiving reimbursement after filing petition in CAOD.
Off-topic observation, in America you get to own guns to protect yourself against your own government, but if you complain about lack of support on purchased goods or even that your health insurance does not cover your cancer treatment, you are a whiner. I always found that to be, interesting. |
Mallak Azaria
559
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:10:00 -
[99] - Quote
LilRemmy wrote:I hope OP gets his ship back and I understand why he would be upset. The rule that you wont get reimbursed no matter what if in big fleet engagement is bullshit also, because I have seen plenty of people get such reimbursement in those cases, even this year. In fact, there is even a thread about a certain goon fleet receiving reimbursement after filing petition in CAOD.
There was also the case of a member of Evoke getting a Nyx back after losing it during a fleet engagement. Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
10
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Posted - 2012.08.21 14:17:00 -
[100] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote: There was also the case of a member of Evoke getting a Nyx back after losing it during a fleet engagement.
B-b-b-b-but CCP says they absolutely do not reimburse losses incurred in fleet engagements. Don't these last 2 posts contradict that? Or does CCP have some criteria for consideration that is not being shared with us? |
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Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
141
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Posted - 2012.08.21 14:17:00 -
[101] - Quote
GM Homonoia wrote:SpotlessBlade wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:
What you quoted above was NOT in response to your case.
The error you got is cause for reimbursement, but you were part of a fleet engagement which we never reimburse for.
You've got to be kidding me? Basically what you're saying is " yes there was an error on our server side, but because the error happened while you were playing the game as intended, we can't help you." That's the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. What if I was a high sec miner in a belt or missioner, and the same error happened, allowing me to be killed by rats? Then you would see the issue? So if we play the game the way it is designed, we forfeit any assistance when your server takes a dump? Look, I would love to help out here and research your case, but I cannot do so on the forums. I really advise you to ask for escalation so a senior can explain what happened and why we can or cannot reimburse. At this point the OP is not likely to accept any explanation, he just wants to moan and complain...
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Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
346
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:19:00 -
[102] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote: [self-snip]
wow, your ability to misconstrue even the most basic written post is... troubling. I never gave any details about previous petitions or how many i may have been hinting at. If you think that demanding proper service for a good/service that you pay for is "wasting their time", i can only suppose that you do not own a car, house, or hell, anything. and I hope that when you move out of your parents basement and earn your own money, that you take companies that treat you like this to task.
Um, no.
But keep believing that if it makes you feel better.
0/10: Come on, mate, at least try for some originality!
E:
I know your type all too well, I think: You see it a lot when you drive HGV --the ones who look for things to complain about, and then be complete pricks about doing so. There is a fine and proper artistry to wielding verbal scalpels, such that the crap-poster you've slashed doesn't even know they've been cut. But verbal bludgeons -- Those are just fun. |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
10
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Posted - 2012.08.21 14:22:00 -
[103] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:SpotlessBlade wrote: [self-snip]
wow, your ability to misconstrue even the most basic written post is... troubling. I never gave any details about previous petitions or how many i may have been hinting at. If you think that demanding proper service for a good/service that you pay for is "wasting their time", i can only suppose that you do not own a car, house, or hell, anything. and I hope that when you move out of your parents basement and earn your own money, that you take companies that treat you like this to task. Um, no. But keep believing that if it makes you feel better. 0/10: Come on, mate, at least try for some originality!
Ahhh now i get it, another troll. No problem Lyrrashae. I will reply once more and only once. You're and idiot, and trolling is not for you. Why you ask? Because you terrible at it. There's the only/last reply you will get. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2255
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:22:00 -
[104] - Quote
GM Homonoia wrote:The meme "the logs show nothing" is incredibly incorrect. That's pretty much exactly the response I got from TWO GMs on a petitioned loss a while back. It was something like "We see that you had no recorded actions in 40 seconds of combat, but the logs don't show any errors so we're not going to do anything about it." It was a most dissatisfying and disheartening response. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1080
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:22:00 -
[105] - Quote
So if you whine and stomp your feet in GD like a proper spoiled little entitled brat and make a complete ass of yourself, you get a dev response?
cool Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2255
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:23:00 -
[106] - Quote
Roime wrote:So if you whine and stomp your feet in GD like a proper spoiled little entitled brat and make a complete ass of yourself, you get a dev response?
cool I guess I should have done that. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:25:00 -
[107] - Quote
Doc Severide wrote: At this point the OP is not likely to accept any explanation, he just wants to moan and complain...
Get caught up duck face, you're like 3 pages behind. |
SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:26:00 -
[108] - Quote
Roime wrote:So if you whine and stomp your feet in GD like a proper spoiled little entitled brat and make a complete ass of yourself, you get a dev response?
cool
Don't be jelly |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
347
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:28:00 -
[109] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:SpotlessBlade wrote: [self-snip]
wow, your ability to misconstrue even the most basic written post is... troubling. I never gave any details about previous petitions or how many i may have been hinting at. If you think that demanding proper service for a good/service that you pay for is "wasting their time", i can only suppose that you do not own a car, house, or hell, anything. and I hope that when you move out of your parents basement and earn your own money, that you take companies that treat you like this to task. Um, no. But keep believing that if it makes you feel better. 0/10: Come on, mate, at least try for some originality! Ahhh now i get it, another troll. No problem Lyrrashae. I will reply once more and only once. You're and idiot, and trolling is not for you. Why you ask? Because you terrible at it. There's the only/last reply you will get.
Not a troll, bru, read the edit.
And whilst you're at it, don't fly Zealots/AHACs if you can't afford to replace them (is that what you lost? Going by the dates on BC, anyway). There is a fine and proper artistry to wielding verbal scalpels, such that the crap-poster you've slashed doesn't even know they've been cut. But verbal bludgeons -- Those are just fun. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1080
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:34:00 -
[110] - Quote
SpotlessBlade wrote:Roime wrote:So if you whine and stomp your feet in GD like a proper spoiled little entitled brat and make a complete ass of yourself, you get a dev response?
cool Don't be jelly
I'm not, honey, my petitions get responded and reimbursed by the GMs. You know, like all others with valid petitions except you, the special little snowflake who got terrorized by an evil corporation.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
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SpotlessBlade
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
13
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Posted - 2012.08.21 14:38:00 -
[111] - Quote
Roime wrote:SpotlessBlade wrote:Roime wrote:So if you whine and stomp your feet in GD like a proper spoiled little entitled brat and make a complete ass of yourself, you get a dev response?
cool Don't be jelly I'm not, honey, my petitions get responded and reimbursed by the GMs. You know, like all others with valid petitions except you, the special little snowflake who got terrorized by an evil corporation.
Oh, wow really???? All of your petitions get reimbursed?!?!?! that's amazing!!! Tell me more..... Just kidding. you're a moron. |
Jim Era
Genco Fatal Ascension
1006
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:51:00 -
[112] - Quote
lol at OP |
Freezehunter
292
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:54:00 -
[113] - Quote
Capqu wrote:i had a gm say to me "yeah we know fleet warping to a bookmark at range wasn't working, but we fixed it now. not going to reimburse since individual warp at range was working fine" yep Quote: This issue has been fixed in the recent patch that was released on August 16th and should no longer occur. We apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused. Unfortunately we will not be able to provide any reimbursements related to this issue because although a squad leader may not have been able to issue a squad warp, individual pilots were still fully capable of warping their own ships. never mind the fact that squad members may not have said bookmark, squad members may have been instructed to wait for warp, the squad may want to warp at the same time etc. nope, 100% player fault
Sometimes I wonder if the GMs even ******* play the game, they are so out of touch with fleet procedures and group gameplay in general that you'd think they don't even do anything in Eve except go to work and start their "support" (bullshit) programs.
Not once have I lost a ship/pod due to the ******* ship or interface suddenly being unresponsive, me being unable to control my ship or press buttons because it's as if the cursor doesn't accept clicks (not a time out, I have rock solid internet), session changes taking ridiculously wrong, crap collision boxes/spheres/whatever the **** they use on stations or objects in missions that get your ship stuck 10 km away from the actual object, etc.
This game has some of the most unhelpful game masters and support that I've ever seen.
It's ridiculous when you have to wait 3 ******* months for a reply to a real issue, but when you report some douche for calling you a *** in Amarr local, they reply, take action (or usually not take action, leaving the troll to keep blurting out bullshit) and then close within 5 minutes.
Can't wait for GW 2 so I can have an excuse to drop this crap from my MMO sub list. Inappropriate signature, CCP Phantom. |
Freezehunter
292
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:02:00 -
[114] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:The meme "the logs show nothing" is incredibly incorrect. That's pretty much exactly the response I got from two GMs on a petitioned loss a while back. It was something like "We see that you had no recorded actions in 40 seconds of combat, but the logs don't show any errors so we're not going to do anything about it." It was a most dissatisfying and disheartening response.
Exactly my point.
Sometimes the interface just STOPS ACCEPTING YOUR ACTIONS, you can type to people, you see their messages, you are not timed out, you are not lagging, you see everything around you working perfectly and the chats moving and people talking, but the interface just stops ******* accepting your ship commands.
What does CCP explain that with, wet graving? Inappropriate signature, CCP Phantom. |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
868
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:19:00 -
[115] - Quote
Freezehunter wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:The meme "the logs show nothing" is incredibly incorrect. That's pretty much exactly the response I got from two GMs on a petitioned loss a while back. It was something like "We see that you had no recorded actions in 40 seconds of combat, but the logs don't show any errors so we're not going to do anything about it." It was a most dissatisfying and disheartening response. Exactly my point. Sometimes the interface just STOPS ACCEPTING YOUR ACTIONS, you can type to people, you see their messages, you are not timed out, you are not lagging, you see everything around you working perfectly and the chats moving and people talking, but the interface just stops ******* accepting your ship commands. Do they actually think that you just suddenly stopped doing anything in combat and waited to die ON PURPOSE? Are they ******* serious? What does CCP explain that with, wet graving?
This is exactly the type of case I was talking about. All we see is that no commands from your client reach the server. We have no idea if the client stopped responding or you walked away from your PC. This is happening on your PC, not our server, and thus we have no idea what is going on. Our logs are not a crystal ball that allow us to see stuff that doesn't happen on our server.
I am now going to paste a reply I personally use to explain some matters here.
"Our reimbursement policies only cover server side issues. Neither connectivity issues, nor client issues are covered. While we understand that this is frustrating, we have these policies in place in order to ensure equal treatment of all our customers. Since this is a competitive game we can only take action when we can verify the cause of a loss. Since we simply do not have that kind of access to your PC we are unable to verify any client side issues, including bugs within the EVE client itself, connection issues, driver issues, hardware failures, etc.
The competitive nature of EVE, which is unique among MMO's, simply requires us to treat everyone equally. This means that when we reimburse one case without verification, we have to do so for all cases. This would open the door to abuse of our reimbursement policies, effectively making any game play consequences null and void."
We ALWAYS look for reasons to reimburse (it is the first thing we teach every new GM once we start training them in reimbursement 'always look for a reason to reimburse, any reason'), but we must do so fairly and make sure we treat everyone equally. One of the most common accusations we hear on a daily basis is "You are just lazy, you do not want to do the work and you are just brushing me off". Trust me when I say this; The easy way out is to reimburse. If we were lazy we would be reimbursing everything. Telling someone we cannot reimburse isn't easy, nor is it fun or enjoyable. It is hard to say no. It is hard to try and explain the reasons behind it while it only ends in an endless argument. It is hard try and explain incredibly complex factors that lead to certain events. It is hard to genuinely try to help and please people when you have very little room to do so and there is only a small chance that the effort will be recognized as such.
HOWEVER, in the end EVE is not the average MMO. It is extremely competitive. This means the customer is not king; the community is. This means we are not here to please people no matter what; we are here to make sure everyone is treated equally and fairly, and to make sure that all our customers are inconvenienced as little as possible in a cut throat environment. Equal treatment is more important then anything else we do. Unfortunately this means that in almost all cases where things are not completely clear we have to stay hands off.
We understand your frustration; we truly do. Most GMs have been or are very active players. All of us have felt the crack of the EVE whip any times over. All of our GMs deal with people's plights on a daily basis and, no matter who you are, that breeds a deep understanding of the frustrations people go through. We sympathize with you, we rage at the unfairness of some of these situation just like you and we get frustrated when things go wrong, just like you. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
113
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Posted - 2012.08.21 15:19:00 -
[116] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Rutger Janssen wrote:Grats op, you got attention from a dev for your issue. I've been trying that for ages :( Guess forums do work better petitions and bug reports :( I just wanted to double highlight, in my original post that there was just one thing that he gave me reason to investigate. As for SpotlessBlade calling us out on the forums. He did so in a manner that was reasonable within anyone's frustration at losing a ship. (contrary to the other players calling him out) We value feedback from our players, and having an open platform to communicate with CCP in a manner such as our forums is critical for us to hear you guys. I just happened to be reading G&D at the time of seeing his thread, and looked further. Immediately seeing that error message, my face scrunched up. So I dug deeper. Note that posting over in the (Issues, Workarounds & Localization forum) with a problem you may have, will always be seen by those of QA as well as bug reports. Where we can dive deeper into any issues you have.
While it's nice of you to respond to the OP and state that ya'll like to hear from us, I would just like to point out the irony (or um "paradox"?) of that statement with the fact that one guy cry's about a ship loss in GD and gets an almost immediate response from CCP. Yet on the Mac sub forum people have been complaining about ship losses (from the client which is known to have freeze and loading issues) for so long without a response it's just now accepted as a stealth "feature". |
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
65
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Posted - 2012.08.21 15:40:00 -
[117] - Quote
So this I am pretty sure is the loss said player is sperging over. Yes it sucks but come on man.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14378118
Edit: someone already beat me to it. :( |
Mallak Azaria
561
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Posted - 2012.08.21 15:52:00 -
[118] - Quote
GM Homonoia wrote:Stuff here
In regards to not providing reimbursments from losses during fleet engagements, can you provide an answer as to why you actually do this but claim not to? Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters C C P Alliance
868
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 16:03:00 -
[119] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:Stuff here In regards to not providing reimbursments from losses during fleet engagements, can you provide an answer as to why you actually do this but claim not to?
DISCLAIMER: This is a very complicated discussion and it is very unlikely that a debate on these forums will create either consensus or a resolution of the issue. This means I am not going to actually debate the policy here. If you want to have this policy debated I can only encourage you to talk to your favorite CSM representative and see if they can bring it up (note, this has been discussed at least several times with the CSM and it is discussed in depth internally at least 3 or 4 times every year).
- Large engagements can cause the server to show some aberrant behavior (which has been largely compensated for by TiDi) that is incredibly hard to track and to reliably examine. - Large fleet engagements can be forced; if we would step in and provide reimbursement any party can force reimbursement by simply getting enough pilots to produce lag or any other side effect of a heavy load. That means we would have to reimburse any and all losses from every fleet engagement, including changes to sovereignty or the loss of sovereignty structures. - If we do decide to ever reimburse in these cases it would become impossible to do so fairly as it is impossible what the implication would have been for the rest of the engagement if the event that lead to the loss would not have happened. It is very likely that the loss would have taken place anyway. - In the end it is practically impossible to act in a fair way when so many people are involved; all with conflicting wishes and opinions.
These are some of the important reason. There are more, mostly to do with back end systems, tools, conflicts with other policies, etc. However, the essence of the argument is that we have been unable to find any way to interfere with these engagements fairly and in a reliable way, or in a way that would not cause a perception of bias, unfairness, etc.
Regarding the last part of your claim that we do reimburse for losses in fleet engagements:
We do NOT reimburse losses from fleet engagements. If it did happen it was a mistake made by a GM or you simply think we did while we did not.
One of the ways our server could mess up where fleet engagements were involved is that it could place destroyed ships back in space when part of our server thought they weren't destroyed (even though they were). This has caused some ships to reappear back in the game, but since we do not interfere we normally do not remove these ships. It is not that we just don't reimburse, we don't act at all if we can help it.
This particular behavior lead to a few events that are now somewhat famous (several titans and supercarriers that reappeared this way) and caused a huge outcry of perceived bias. I repeat this again here; we did NOT reimburse those. Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
177
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Posted - 2012.08.21 16:07:00 -
[120] - Quote
Any nul sec member bitching about anything is just trolling. Northern CoalitionDot here is just trying to get a rise, ignore his thread and it'll die the death it deserves. :) |
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