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Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
78
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Posted - 2012.08.23 15:27:00 -
[91] - Quote
Harlot Hohannson wrote:It would seem overpowered to be able to interfere with the LOCK RANGE or 4+ ships in a single ship right?
Well how about the damn Falcon being able to almost completely remove 4+ ships from a fight whatsoever (notwithstanding smartbombs or drones that already have a target).
I am still amazed that this bullshit is allowed to go on.
ECM is so ubiquitous it's a joke. CCP really should do something about this pathetic 'chance based' (lol) mechanic.
In before all the cowards that can't handle risk come in defending overpowered mechanics. "I can't risk having someone actually fighting while I PVP".
Oooh, oooooh!! Does this mean the failmeme "Blame Falcon!" is back?!??!?!
Shweet... |
Hicksimus
Suppressive Fire Reverberation Project
153
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Posted - 2012.08.23 17:34:00 -
[92] - Quote
The Falcon is the only ship that I have ever used that made 7 battlecruisers run from 2 drakes, the thing would be a steal at 500m isk.
If the Arazu becomes just as effective and maintains point range then it'll be a tough choice of which one I will use when I'm feeling like a ****. Things I have realized from the EvE forums: Many people beleive cost means money and only money If you use it then it needs a buff. -áIf you don't use it then it needs to be nerfed. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
100
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 18:34:00 -
[93] - Quote
Let's say they boosted the Lachesis' and Arazus bonuses to dampening, so a single Lachesis could put 4-5 ships down to 4-500m locking range simultaneously. Falcon pilots would scream nerf, and Arazu pilots would be all smug and say "bring sensor booster. Because yeah, the ECCM is sooooooo effective, just like a sensor booster would be if an Arazu had that kind of dampening power. |
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
144
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Posted - 2012.08.23 18:50:00 -
[94] - Quote
If it's so OP, why aren't you using it? I mean, this is Eve...the very meaning of the letters "PvP" is Player versus People...everything is overpowered at some point or another. Well, until it gets nerfed into vanilladom and no one wants to use it anymore, thus removing yet another valid mechanic from the game.
Keep whining, you guys will eventually get your wish...playing Bumper-pods. A good predator knows how to live in balance with his prey, lest he follow them into oblivion. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
100
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 19:01:00 -
[95] - Quote
It should not get removed. It should be changed. Rumors are that's gonna happen, so we will see. But I hope u can see my point. People don't fit ECCM because it's fck all useless vs a Falcon, because you will be jammed either way, in addition to the module being useless for anything else. I also think Iam Widdershins concluded that ECCM has no effect vs ECM drones, so useless for that too.
If a Falcon have the effect that you can just leave the computer and take a shower when it decloaks on you, why cant the other races ships in the class do the same? |
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
675
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 19:05:00 -
[96] - Quote
Harlot Hohannson wrote:
In before all the cowards that can't handle risk come in defending overpowered mechanics. "I can't risk having someone actually fighting while I PVP".
Sounds like you are the one who can't handle risk. Do you smell what the Lock's cooking? |
Garresh
Deep Axion Ushra'Khan
25
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Posted - 2012.08.23 19:35:00 -
[97] - Quote
Sakura Kasenumi wrote:ECM is a force multiplyer much teh same as logistics. Take away theese abilities and Eve is reduced EVEN MORE to a numbers game.
A small gang with ECM can fight a lrager force. A small gang with ECM and logistics can fight an even larger force. Send a small gang with neither against a larger force and it dies almost every time unless using such tactics as kiting.
A kiting force will destroy a larger force that can not hit it. Is that overpowered? If the defending force has ecm they can force teh kiting force to leave the field or render tehm inefective, is that overpowered?
In massive fleet fights, both sides often have ECM, taking people out of the combat, is that overpowered?
ECM seems overpowered in specific circumstances, if the enemy force has ECM adn a larger number, you will be overwhelmed fast, is that overpowered? They would probably have killed your force anyway. If teh smaller force had the ECM teh battlfield is levelled. Is that overpowered?
Think about what you are saying and look at it form other angles. If you are just but hurt because someone beat you down using ECM, that isnt a reason for it to be changed, it may be a reason for you to look at your own fleet compositions though.
Actually yes, by the example you gave it is overpowered. You identified 3 force multipliers. Long range fast kiting setups, logistics ships, and ECM. In your same post you said ECM counters both of them, AND that large fleets use ECM, which means that a smaller fleet with ECM will still lose to a larger fleet with ECM(or be forced to flee) regardless of personal skill. So yeah, by that definition it is overpowered. I reserve judgement cause I mostly fly solo where ECM isn't too big of a problem, but just wanted to point out the flaws in your argument. |
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
323
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Posted - 2012.08.23 19:55:00 -
[98] - Quote
Garresh wrote:You identified 3 force multipliers. Long range fast kiting setups, logistics ships, and guns. In your same post you said gunscounters both of them, AND that large fleets use guns, which means that a smaller fleet with gunswill still lose to a larger fleet with guns (or be forced to flee) regardless of personal skill. I just wanted to point out the flaws in your argument.
Erm...? |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
100
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 20:13:00 -
[99] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Garresh wrote:You identified 3 force multipliers. Long range fast kiting setups, logistics ships, and guns. In your same post you said gunscounters both of them, AND that large fleets use guns, which means that a smaller fleet with gunswill still lose to a larger fleet with guns (or be forced to flee) regardless of personal skill. I just wanted to point out the flaws in your argument. Erm...?
No no. ECM |
Lord breathenstein
Incubus.
5
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Posted - 2012.08.23 21:44:00 -
[100] - Quote
A fair trade off would be falcons pilots either receiving a dose of herpes from their moms when they do that thing with their tongue cleaning behind their foreskins or making arazus how they used to be. |
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James 315
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2469
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 22:10:00 -
[101] - Quote
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:If it's so OP, why aren't you using it? Standard answer: If it's overpowered, then by the time you've trained it up, it will be nerfed again.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ MinerBumping.com -˝-˝-˝-˝-˝-˝-˝-˝-˝-˝The daily saga of one man's quest to bring civilization to highsec by bumping miners out of range. |
luZk
x13
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 00:52:00 -
[102] - Quote
Harlot Hohannson wrote:It would seem overpowered to be able to interfere with the LOCK RANGE or 4+ ships in a single ship right?
Well how about the damn Falcon being able to almost completely remove 4+ ships from a fight whatsoever (notwithstanding smartbombs or drones that already have a target).
I am still amazed that this bullshit is allowed to go on.
ECM is so ubiquitous it's a joke. CCP really should do something about this pathetic 'chance based' (lol) mechanic.
In before all the cowards that can't handle risk come in defending overpowered mechanics. "I can't risk having someone actually fighting while I PVP".
It would seem overpowered to be able to warp disrupt 4+ ships at 50+km or in a single ship right?
Well how about the damn Arazu being able to almost completely warp disrupt 4+ ships from a fight whatsoever (notwithstanding smartbombs or drones that wont be in range for a long time.
I am still amazed that this bullshit is allowed to go on.
Arazu is so ubiquitous it's a joke. CCP really should do something about this pathetic fixed bonus (lol) mechanic.
In before all the clueless that can't handle risk come in understanding mechanics. "I can't risk having someone actually beeing able to warp disrupt me when im out of range in PVP"
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Raiz Nhell
DEEP CORPS
153
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 05:00:00 -
[103] - Quote
James 315 wrote:Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:If it's so OP, why aren't you using it? Standard answer: If it's overpowered, then by the time you've trained it up, it will be nerfed again.
Everything that puts you in a pod is overpowered... I could say that 1400mm is OP cause it toasts my Hulk or my DST...
But then I would spend my time whining instead of looking at how I was beaten, and working out counters or making use of the tools that were used against me.
There is no such thing as a fair fight...
If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage. |
Kalla Vera Quiroga
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.08.24 05:29:00 -
[104] - Quote
Fly Faction or Pirate ships, they have superior sensor strength to their T1 counter parts, there, just my 2 cents. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
943
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 05:37:00 -
[105] - Quote
As my falcon alt has lost many falcons (and rooks and scorpions), I can assure you there are plenty of ways to counter ECM.
ECM-boats have little tank and use range and jammers as tank. One unlucky jam cycle, and if your opponent is in their range, you will find yourself upgrading your clone again. |
Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 08:12:00 -
[106] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Ptraci wrote:Pestily wrote:
A falcon can fit 6 jammers no problem.
A falcon with 6 jammers has no tank and can be instapopped almost just by looking at it. Falcons can be easily overtanked by 1600mm plate, thanks to excessive powergrid they have.
Falcons with 1600mm plates STILL get instapopped by looking it in a meaningful way, by the way. Also, a Falcon can bother a few ships, or can lock down a single ship (if it has the right ECM modules fit), but it cannot, at all, get four ships out of an engagement.
I actually collect Falcon whines in a special folder in my computer, which I lovingly extract from Local logs after they happen.
It's ****ing hillarious and provides so much tears and trolling potential. I wish I could fly one myself.
People also whine quite a lot when Rapiers pin their 100AB Tengus, and when an Arazu puts a disruptor on them at 107Km. People would cry about ANYTHING. But nothing ever beats a Falcon for sheer tear collecting power.
And still, very rarely you see ECCM modules, or people devoting a fleet spot to bring their own Falcon. Instead, people secretely LOVE Falcons because in their little minds, it's the perfect explanation for EVERYTHING. "I lost because of Falcon, clearly". It's always:
-You are [slang for "fecal matter"] without your Falcons. -I devote to fights even if I lose, you are all [slang for "homosexuals"] -Without your Falcons you'd get zero kills, you [slang for "female genitalia"] -You suck at PvP because you brought Falcons.
Here are some real examples of the marvellous "because of Falcon" syndrome:
n++[ 2012.05.30 21:24:10 ] caloon > id fight all you ******* if you didnt jam me. and i'd kill you all. n++[ 2012.05.15 21:10:31 ] BoomEZ > you guys should just all use falcons and not even shoot at people n++[ 2012.05.07 21:22:05 ] Tukuarikan > i remember u ganked someone with a thousand falcons once n++[ 2012.08.15 23:33:14 ] PreZiDenT1 > All i know is your overuse of falcons. Thats the reference point i got.
I've got a few from people that brought their own Falcon, two kiting Talos with ECM drones and an offgrid boosting Loki...and still complained about our Falcon. And then complained about the Rapier, and then complained when more pilots showed up to kill them, and then they complained about being scanned and jumped on (I'm serious).
Basically, people expects you to jump at their optimal, stop your ship and let them take potshots at you. They call this approach "I'm in this for the goodfights".
People get pissed off when they lose ships. They always have excuses and try to rationalize it, and unless they lose 1vs1 against a worse ship, they always look for reasons outside their own sloppiness: it's because the ships you brought, or the ships you "abuse", or the bubbles you placed, or how boring is to camp a gate, get a life, etc. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1096
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 08:43:00 -
[107] - Quote
Garresh wrote:Actually yes, by the example you gave it is overpowered. You identified 3 force multipliers. Long range fast kiting setups, logistics ships, and ECM. In your same post you said ECM counters both of them, AND that large fleets use ECM, which means that a smaller fleet with ECM will still lose to a larger fleet with ECM(or be forced to flee) regardless of personal skill. So yeah, by that definition it is overpowered. I reserve judgement cause I mostly fly solo where ECM isn't too big of a problem, but just wanted to point out the flaws in your argument.
Kiting ships are a force multiplier?
I think you're misunderstanding the concept.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
752
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 11:21:00 -
[108] - Quote
Darius Brinn wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:Ptraci wrote:Pestily wrote:
A falcon can fit 6 jammers no problem.
A falcon with 6 jammers has no tank and can be instapopped almost just by looking at it. Falcons can be easily overtanked by 1600mm plate, thanks to excessive powergrid they have. Falcons with 1600mm plates STILL get instapopped by looking it in a meaningful way, by the way. That's false, practice shows that an overtanked (plated) Falcon can easily miss a jam cycle on Machariel, get pointed and shooted at and yet still get out alive or go on jamming next cycle.
14 |
alittlebirdy
All Hail The Liopleurodon
59
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 13:50:00 -
[109] - Quote
Op's an idiot...
So off your logic
No more logis (wtf they can rep like 4 guys) No more ECM (not like we dont have eccm) No more arazu (60km point able to stop 4 ships from warping off) No more... o wait your just a baby...
Fit ECCM bro.
Falcon = 4 ships out right...
so 3 would = 12 100% useless off this logic
Hm..... I seem to recall in the AT... that 3 falcon teams did not = insta win EVERYTIME... lawl...
Again tears... I like em. |
Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 15:31:00 -
[110] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Darius Brinn wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:Ptraci wrote:Pestily wrote:
A falcon can fit 6 jammers no problem.
A falcon with 6 jammers has no tank and can be instapopped almost just by looking at it. Falcons can be easily overtanked by 1600mm plate, thanks to excessive powergrid they have. Falcons with 1600mm plates STILL get instapopped by looking it in a meaningful way, by the way. That's false, practice shows that an overtanked (plated) Falcon can easily miss a jam cycle on Machariel, get pointed and shooted at and yet still get out alive or go on jamming next cycle.
No. Highly situational. Depends on many factors, distances,fittings. It MIGHT survive a Machariel volley...or it might NOT. It MIGHT land a jam, or it might not.
I-¦ve seen Falcons dying to a couple frigates. Or one-shot by arty Tempests. Or missing three jams in a row into T1 cruisers. **** happens.
Whatever the fitting, a Falcon is paper thin. And whoever says jams don-¦t miss quite frequently has absolutely NO clue.
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Suitonia
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
100
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 16:36:00 -
[111] - Quote
Falcon;
Role Bonus: 80% More Likely to post poorly constructed Strawman arguments on the eveonline.com forums. |
Roderick Grey
House Of Serenity. Unprovoked Aggression
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 17:22:00 -
[112] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Falcon;
Role Bonus: 80% More Likely to post poorly constructed Strawman arguments on the eveonline.com forums.
Unfunny, poor English and pretentious:;*
-1/10
*Ironic |
XxRTEKxX
Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 17:25:00 -
[113] - Quote
FOF Missiles work if you have them skilled and get close enough to the ecm ship so that those missiles engage that ship. Works in Serpentis missions when damped to hell and Guristas missions when perma-jammed.
"empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like water. Be water my friend" -Bruce Lee |
Suitonia
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
100
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 18:01:00 -
[114] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Suitonia wrote:Falcon;
Role Bonus: 80% More Likely to post poorly constructed Strawman arguments on the eveonline.com forums. Unfunny, poor English and pretentious:;* -1/10 *Ironic
That's some Unprovoked Aggression right there man. I like the fact that you called me pretentious while leaving an out of context one liner you probably took from a movie critic review headline.
Now let's get back to people who have never PvP'd outside of High Security space telling us to fit Smartbombs on Cruisers to counter Falcons. Only gonna take 12 minutes to kill it! |
Solstice Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1706
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 18:18:00 -
[115] - Quote
Lord breathenstein wrote:A fair trade off would be falcons pilots either receiving a dose of herpes from their moms when they do that thing with their tongue cleaning behind their foreskins or making arazus how they used to be.
Wow ! That, Sir, is disgusting ! A like from me, for you.
Btw ... to post something constructive i really have to ask what the fuzz is all about.
I know ECM, it really drives me mad when the faction polices jams me seconds before the other ship explodes. I'd also prefer it to go away, but i live with the fact that's it's there ... and that's okay.
The above is a JSYK ... my question now is, why it's so hard for people to have one or two fleetmembers be dedicated ECM killers ? It's not that hard to figure out, really.
I know that this ignored solo pilots, but if you're solo and somebody else isn't, then it doesn't really matter if it's a Falcon or a Curse that brings you trouble.
Personally, i put ECM into the same ****-hole as dedicated remote repping ships. I can't remember if i ever had issues with RR or not, but for me it's a principle thing anyway. "Healing" in my eyes is overpowered per se, so the dedicated ship makes it even worse.
"Jamming" in my eyes is also overpowered per se, so the dedicated ship makes it even worse.
But hey, i'll figure out a way to kill it. If i fail it's my fault and then i'll spend the whole next day thinking about ways to achieve what i want ... in this case, killing an Arazu.
I really hate Arazu', you know. How can this be legal that my ship gets pointed from a hundred frelling kilometer away, forcing me to *retreat* ... RETREAT ! PAH ! ... or die, of course !
That said ... i still have to deal with it. That won't change.
I'm sure i'll figure out a way to *deal with it* and if it's from 150km away ...
There's much more pleasure behind doing this, than opening a thread about how i would want to but can't pull it off and then compensate my anger about my failure by making a thread about it in the biggest trollsection of eve online.
TL;DR: Posting in a retro-thread like a boss. All of you.
o/ Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Suitonia
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
100
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 18:24:00 -
[116] - Quote
XxRTEKxX wrote:FOF Missiles work if you have them skilled and get close enough to the ecm ship so that those missiles engage that ship. Works in Serpentis missions when damped to hell and Guristas missions when perma-jammed.
"empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like water. Be water my friend" -Bruce Lee
Well here's the thing. They may well work in missions. This is not a discussion about PVE. There are not many PVP ships which can even use F.O.F missiles and be effective at driving off a Falcon/Rook. You need enough damage to get it off the field in about 30 seconds or less, which is still a massive waste of your DPS. What PvP ships ingame are viable to do this.
Lets See: Drake, Tengu, Nighthawk.. Thats about it...
Friend or Foe Missiles also only go for the closest target, and unless the ECM pilot is a bad pilot then it should never be the closest ship. Not to mention that the above ships are on the slower side of things.
Smartbombs are also not an effective real-world counter. Again, unless you're fighting a ******** ECM pilot they are not going to be <5km from you. Smartbombs are also very weak in terms of DPS, especially below Large size. If you had 2x large smartbomb on your ship, which would be a huge sacrifice for any ship, and you are against a brain-damaged ECM pilot who decides to sit 0km from a BS, then it will still take you about 15 cycles of those two smartbombs to get the Falcon/Rook to a point where he needs to leave the field. Thats what? Just under 2 minutes up to 3 minutes depending on the skill. Rubbish.
Damps are ineffective (at least on non-bonused/dedicated ships) A falcon has a lock range of 149km. To get it down to a point where your disrupting the average Falcon/Rook pilot you need to use 2-3 of them. It's a complete waste you're better off fitting ECCM.
There are only 2 Practical counters ECCM and ECM
ECCM is not an option for many small-scale/solo ships and gangs. You're essentially pre-gimping all your ships in the event you run into ECM. Which means you'll lose a fight against an equal numbered gang without ECCM. ECM just causes more problems. Many people will simply avoid ECM at all costs, cutting down on people who want to fight you.
The third option of course, is to not engage people with ECM unless you have the numbers to do so. Which more often or not, leads to lack of fights taking place and people just choosing to leave.
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Hauling Hal
The Black Ops Black Core Alliance
89
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Posted - 2012.08.24 18:56:00 -
[117] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:XxRTEKxX wrote:FOF Missiles work if you have them skilled and get close enough to the ecm ship so that those missiles engage that ship. Works in Serpentis missions when damped to hell and Guristas missions when perma-jammed.
"empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like water. Be water my friend" -Bruce Lee Well here's the thing. They may well work in missions. This is not a discussion about PVE. There are not many PVP ships which can even use F.O.F missiles and be effective at driving off a Falcon/Rook. You need enough damage to get it off the field in about 30 seconds or less, which is still a massive waste of your DPS. What PvP ships ingame are viable to do this.
Sorry, but you're wrong. As soon as you go flashy red to a Falcon, they will warp off, because they can't risk taking much damage. The purpose of a Falcon's tank is to give them time to leave the fight when they get targetted, not to allow them to stay around during the fight.
As I said earlier, drones and FOF counter ECM by making them warp off, which then makes the Falcon as effective as the mothership in your POS 24 jumps away. i.e. If it's not there, it isn't any use. |
Bizmarhk
Mafia Redux
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 19:53:00 -
[118] - Quote
A Falcon has become so overpowered that my small gangs now bring an alt in a Falcon just to jam other Falcon's. That's not something that should have to be done. And to you guys saying fit ECCM, you try fitting it first than come back and tell us to fit it when we're doing small gang PVP.
Also nerf ECM drones while you're at it. My BS should not be getting nearly perma-jammed by EC-300's. And no, I am not fitting a smart bomb, and an ECCM for two ******* things in the game out of all the other things. That makes absolutely no sense. We shouldn't have to fit a module on our ship to counter ONE other ship (Rook and Scorp barely count since no one pilots those). |
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
69
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 20:38:00 -
[119] - Quote
I think I said it earlier in this tread.
What I think should be done with ECM is this you take your base sensor streanth and multiply it by your max targets so lets say a ship has a 12 strength and 6 max targets so it a total of 72 points.
A falcon can jam for 13 points per jammer this would have to be upped with these numbers but if falcon pilot has 4 jammers fit he can bring then 13*4 is 52 points so the target could only lock 2 ships. I think with messing with the numbers this could be a fair way to make ecm work but still keep it balanced.
This is just an idea but I think it would be a fair work for it. |
Roderick Grey
Aliastra Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 20:45:00 -
[120] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Suitonia wrote:Falcon;
Role Bonus: 80% More Likely to post poorly constructed Strawman arguments on the eveonline.com forums. Unfunny, poor English and pretentious:;* -1/10 *Ironic That's some Unprovoked Aggression right there man. I like the fact that you called me pretentious while leaving an out of context one liner you probably took from a movie critic review headline. Now let's get back to people who have never PvP'd outside of High Security space telling us to fit Smartbombs on Cruisers to counter Falcons. Only gonna take 12 minutes to kill it!
Nice pun dude, that's some really clever stuff right there;I bet you're a real hit at your Carrot Top appreciation group.
How is that comment anymore out of context that your own?
Wow, you're just full of insight aren't you?
Any back on topic, there's atleast four practical counters, providing you're not doing solo pvp, in that case deal with it.
ECM
ECCM... Kinda
Fielding over 5 high dps ships capable of holding and killing the ECM platform.
Fielding 3-5 ships of the same race and dropping on the ECM platform before they have intel on you. |
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