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Tabernack en Chasteaux
Next Generation Material Solutions Yulai Federation
18
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Posted - 2011.09.26 14:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi there,
I just moved out to 0.0 for the first time, and I'm still learning the ropes. I haven't had the chance to move a lot of hardware out there yet. So when the call went out last night for a fleet to clear out some reds in our space, I didn't have much to offer. However, the FC did mention that scouts would be handy -- so I offered up the services of my Helios.
The FC was less than enthused. "Do you have a cloaky recon?" Can't fly one yet. "Do you have a BC?" Not down here yet. "How about an interceptor?" Sigh. Sorry, I brought what I have.
I got the distinct impression that I was a complete waste of space. I understand that one of the other ships would have been better for the fleet, but again, I simply could not bring one to the table. Surely there is some value in having a cloaky scout? Especially since the fleet ended up getting ambushed by an NC. HAC gang...
So, if its use as a scout is as limited as this FC claims, what is the role of the covert ops frigate exactly? There has to be something I can contribute, aside from AFK cloaking :\ |
Signal11th
55
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Posted - 2011.09.26 15:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Your FC sounds like a bit of a pri ck to be honest although its not the greatest you can still use it as a scout. Primarily it's used for scanning plex's out and pissing off carebears in 0.0. Until you have a useful ship though I would stay away from fleets although I've known coverts to be used as scouts.
Being a useful scout is not as easy as you think, don;t let it get you down some FC's can be quite temperamental. Use a ceptor as you can scout and be hero tackle as well. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
65
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Posted - 2011.09.26 15:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Your FC is talking out of his ass.
Sure, a cloaky recon is excellent for grabbing a tackle on a lone ship if you're running for ganks and/or can contribute to the gang in a meaningful way (Arazu & Rapier in particular), but the Covops class of ship perform excellently as scouts. Since, you know, they can cloak and ****.
They perform BETTER than a recon for scouting for a larger gang, for the following reasons:
- Smaller and faster. They get there quicker - Less likely to be caught - They warp quicker - Scan bonus. Surprise! You can actually use this. Which member of the gang is going to get a warp in to the alpha fleet sitting 90km from the gate? You. - You can fit a little EWAR (damps / tracking dissys) and hang out at range, messing people up and staying out of danger. A single optimal range scripted TD can ruin someones day
The best FCs I know started their PVP life as scouts in Covops ships. Some of them still lead fleets from them (or they're the scout on an alt).
I don't think your FC is one of these. |
Cameron Zero
Red Federation
2
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Posted - 2011.09.26 18:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Seems to me that a small, fast ship that can cloak would be an excellent scout. "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. GǪ" |
Tabernack en Chasteaux
Next Generation Material Solutions Yulai Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.09.26 19:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cameron Zero wrote:Seems to me that a small, fast ship that can cloak would be an excellent scout.
See, yeah, that's what I thought too, but the FC made it clear that I was dead weight unless I could participate in combat. But it's not like space was limited, right? I wasn't denying someone else a spot...
Also, yeah, I totally could have given them a warp-in on that Dramiel sitting 300km off the gate >_< Without instructions to do so, however, I was afraid of spooking him with probes. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
275
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Posted - 2011.09.26 19:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tabernack en Chasteaux wrote:Cameron Zero wrote:Seems to me that a small, fast ship that can cloak would be an excellent scout. See, yeah, that's what I thought too, but the FC made it clear that I was dead weight unless I could participate in combat. But it's not like space was limited, right? I wasn't denying someone else a spot... Also, yeah, I totally could have given them a warp-in on that Dramiel sitting 300km off the gate >_< Without instructions to do so, however, I was afraid of spooking him with probes.
Either: Your FC is a muppet Or: there's a big part of this story we're not hearing. I've literally never heard of a PvP FC turn down a covops prober before now.
Meanwhile, train up for Interdictors too. If he turns a dictor down as well, quit that alliances. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Tabernack en Chasteaux
Next Generation Material Solutions Yulai Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.09.26 20:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
No, there's really nothing else to the story. I x-ed up for a home defense fleet that was calling for scouts, and the FC wanted me flying literally anything but a covops. Does the fact that it was a relatively small gang (~12 pilots) change anything?
Also, forgive my ignorance. What does "muppet" mean in this context? :P |
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CCP Zymurgist
C C P C C P Alliance
147
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Posted - 2011.09.26 20:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Covert Op ships are awesome scouts. Having someone watching the flanks and rear of a fleet and having an extra set of eyes to check out side routes or bottle necks make them invaluable assets to a fleet. I think your FC may just want something a little bit beefier to act as forward scout to catch targets with.
To top it off, you put an expanded probe launcher on a cov op ship and you will bring home some serious mission runner and safe spot hugger kills for your fleet. Zymurgist Community Representative CCP NA, EVE Online Contact Us at http://support.eveonline.com/pages/petitions/createpetition.aspx |
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KaarBaak
36
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Posted - 2011.09.27 00:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
It's funny...I was a scout in the Army. I served under several commanders (at different levels) who had a wide-range of ideas as to what scouts were supposed to do.
Some wanted us to simply be eyes. If we were seen or engaged, we essentially failed our mission. Others wanted us to take out lead elements of the enemy (their scouts). One actually assigned us a "die-in-place" mission (in training) wherein we were to engage the enemy until we were no longer able to present a fighting force.
The sneak&peek missions were what I liked. Much like what I like to do in-game in my Anathema. Unfortunately, a lot of "scout-qualified" players like that job because of the low-risk aspect of ship loss. You didn't mention...it could be that the FC had a compliment of eyes and wanted something along the lines of force-recon.
There is a fine line in combat environment (real and virtual) between knowing the "big picture" and just keeping your head down and doing your effing job. That's not meant as a slam on the OP...that's how it was explained to me.
So, while I was in 0.0, I would hop in my Anathema and go muck about in other people's space on my own...when corp/alliance ops weren't going on of course. A little extra intel never hurt, and it helped me learn my way around the territory. Also helped work on the skills.
Some FCs will take on the extra baggage of a new member in a ship he doesn't need and send him off with another scout or to some low-priority avenue in order to get the training in. Others can't be bothered or don't want to deal with the distraction.
Scouts can be pretty important and you need to know SOP for scouts and the intel channel before you go out.
KB
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
42
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Posted - 2011.09.27 01:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
I've been a forward scout in a Manticore stealth bomber, so tackling nor durability are essential to the task. A rear or flank scout is often a role assigned to rookies.
Being a scout is a lot of work, and being a GOOD scout is even harder. It is also quite hazardous, and an FC shouldn't discourage people that are willing to take on the job. FCs rely heavily on scouts.
Luckily I had the benefit of an alliance FC that was both eager to train people and patient. He didn't flip-out when he ordered someone to do something, and they'd have to ask him to spend a few seconds to explain. He'd take the blame for any failures, and we have a good laugh over it. It made everyone want to join fleets with him, and made everyone better pilots.
Then there was the FC that did nothing but yell at people. I avoided joining his fleets by logging-off. |
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Tabernack en Chasteaux
Next Generation Material Solutions Yulai Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.09.27 01:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Thanks for sharing guys. I think for now I'm going to tool around and make a shitton of safe spots around here and in red space :)
Perhaps I'll find someone in the alliance who can help mentor me in our SOPs etc. |
Bob Niac
freelancers inc Territorial Claim Unit
3
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Posted - 2011.09.27 02:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
any1 ever see if a +1 warp strength would be a good bonus for a covops? maybe +2 if a tank slot was removed? |
Tabernack en Chasteaux
Next Generation Material Solutions Yulai Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.09.27 02:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bob Niac wrote:any1 ever see if a +1 warp strength would be a good bonus for a covops? maybe +2 if a tank slot was removed?
Heh, I don't really think they need to be harder to catch :P |
Zi'Boo
Zi'Corp
0
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Posted - 2011.09.27 02:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
There are several key factors that you haven't mentioned that may have impacted the FC's choice:
1. how big was your fleet? In a fleet of 5 -10 guys losing one of them for a cov ops scout is a big deal, as that frig does nothing in the eventual fight, on the other hand once your fleet reaches 50 -100 or more you can easily spare someone for a scout.
2. how experienced are you - usually you want someone with a lot of experience doing your scouting. Otherwise it may lead to problems like visually identifying ships (instead of looking a the type column on either directional scanner or overlay), not being able to pinpoint the enemies quickly enough, relaying the information in a wrong way (like shouting there's a lot of enemies in here, rather than say mixed fleet of 50 BC / logi on ABC-DE gate). Also if you're in a cov ops you will be expected to scan and get warp ins on a enemy fleet very quickly, which may be a bit of a problem for an inexperienced pilot.
3. Can the FC trust you - mostly a problem with bigger fleets of mixed corps / alliances - you don't want to warp to someone you don't know / trust and end up with your fleet decimated, because that person was a spy.
I guess the problem in your case came from a small fleet size, where every ship counts and a lot of roles have to be shared, so instead of a cov ops you'd prefer a recon with a probe launcher or something.
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Tabernack en Chasteaux
Next Generation Material Solutions Yulai Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.09.27 02:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zi'Boo wrote: I guess the problem in your case came from a small fleet size, where every ship counts and a lot of roles have to be shared, so instead of a cov ops you'd prefer a recon with a probe launcher or something.
This is almost certainly the case. However, at the same time they're not really losing anything, as the choice was to take the Helios or nothing at all.
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Zi'Boo
Zi'Corp
0
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Posted - 2011.09.27 03:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Yes and no, You'd think they don't lose anything, but it may be a difference of getting someone to engage vs the targets running and hiding.
If you want to join those small fleets a tackling frigate (interceptors, rifter, punisher, or some of the faction frigates depending on your wallet) will be way more appreciated as they can have a multi role - scout, tackle and add that little bit of dps. |
flank steak
Ancient Malevolence Rage Alliance
6
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Posted - 2011.09.27 13:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
From my experience Yulai is not very good at helping new players. After our recent war dec with you I found myself having to teach young yulai players (technically my wartargets) how to not autopilot and insta-warp with their pods. It was quite sad and I told many of them to find a new corp... |
Signal11th
60
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Posted - 2011.09.27 13:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
OP if you need any help/advice about living in 0.0 and you're not getting any help from your corp drop me a mail and I'll try to help. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
paritybit
Rote Kapelle
28
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Posted - 2011.09.27 17:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
It's all going to come down to what the FC is willing to accept in his fleet.
Generally, the covert ops ships are seen as less than ideal. A Force Recon has the same cloaking ability and can often fit a probe launcher. An interceptor has pretty good survivability when jumping into a hostile force, can catch targets of opportunity and warps faster. Which is all very sad because Covert Ops seem like they should be a stepping stone to the Force Recons and so many new players think they are the way to go.
They kind of need a little something special (more special than a probing bonus, because good probers don't really need the bonus for most tasks).
That said, I'd take a covert ops over nothing. But I don't generally FC either. |
Tabernack en Chasteaux
Next Generation Material Solutions Yulai Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.09.27 17:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
flank steak wrote:From my experience Yulai is not very good at helping new players. After our recent war dec with you I found myself having to teach young yulai players (technically my wartargets) how to not autopilot and insta-warp with their pods. It was quite sad and I told many of them to find a new corp...
Hehehehehe. For what it's worth, you guys camping Amarr was the impetus for my making instant-undock bookmarks, like, everywhere.
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Cranky Waters
Game Over.
0
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Posted - 2011.09.27 17:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
covops are excellent scouts , either of them, bombers can be better because of insta lock , covops for probing
recons are not better, but will do becuase if it jumps into a decent bubble camp its dead.
If your a wizz kid with the probes fly a prober ( plexers , people logging when they have agro )
Bomber can also tackle (well) due to insta lock (no decloaking delay)
The best for heavy tackle I find is probing T3 with nullifier,100+k ehp and nuets . |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
40
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Posted - 2011.09.27 18:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tabernack en Chasteaux wrote:Zi'Boo wrote: I guess the problem in your case came from a small fleet size, where every ship counts and a lot of roles have to be shared, so instead of a cov ops you'd prefer a recon with a probe launcher or something.
This is almost certainly the case. However, at the same time they're not really losing anything, as the choice was to take the Helios or nothing at all.
In small gangs I will be FC in my main ship and have my alt moving around and scouting and probing in a covert ops ship.
I don't know WHO he had as a scout, but the fact remains, if it was a "Defense" fleet is probably the main clincher there - they probably really don't need to know WHERE the enemy is as much as just engaging them...
What your FC said when he said "I want scouts" is he meant "I want skirmishers" - another phrase, but he really wanted small fast units that can get in and engage and survive while the fleet arrives. Skirmishers are kind of like scouts, but more about being aggressive than simply being eyes on the field.
All that said and done, I wouldn't take any of it personally - even if the FC said it in a strange tone.
Being an FC is a stressful job - I like to put any guy I fly with in the FC position once, just so he appreciates the amount of stress, planning and willpower it takes to lead even 10, 50, or 500 guys into the battle with potentially Billions of ISK on the line. So, a tone of "Stress" isn't unusual in an FC, especially if he knows he has something to lose.
The best FCs, nonetheless keep their tonality or calmness or humor to a high to the best of their ability at all times - because it's also about being confident and a leader even in the face of death. I remember one time in a de-briefing one of my pilots said something which struck me... "The FC gave the order with a slight tone of emotion, which told me this was really important."
What that really said to me was - and perhaps I didn't realize I kept this calm tonality at all times - was that I usually have such a calm demeanor through out all the times this pilot has flown with me; that this one time even the slight emphasis of emotion told him this was serious ****. Which it was - I was trying to save 15 battleships from getting ambushed at a safespot and totally ripping our fleet to pieces. NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Toshiro GreyHawk
2
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Posted - 2011.09.27 19:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Yeah ... not so much in EVE but IRL when I was young and in some other games I've been in Leadership positions and ... it's not always fun.
You can't let your personal feelings about things and the people you're leading (if they're jack asses) get into the mix, though you can show pride in them if they're good. You have to motivate your people to do well even when you know you're headed out to get your asses kicked. That's not easy to do.
You have to care about your peoples well being - as they will know if you don't - yet not let their well being be the dominant factor. Here - you've got to measure the losses you and your people are going to take against what is to be gained during the mission. You may know something your people don't ... which you may or may not be able to tell them ... and yet still have to lead them out to an ass kicking they're not going to enjoy.
And then ... of course ... there's always going to be someone in your group who thinks that they know better how to do things ... when they don't ... and you have to deal with them and their belly aching while you're trying to keep the unit from being destroyed.
When you're winning - it's all cake. You still need to pay as much attention to what you're doing - so that you take full advantage of your victory but ... it's not near the suck fest of having to command a defeat. If you lose - which as the guy in charge you may well know is fore ordained - it's all going to be YOUR fault and that's a factor too - but one you can't let influence your decisions as it will cloud your judgement. People who let their own reputations enter into tactical decision making are generally poor leaders but ... if they're good at looking out for themselves - they're often able to deflect blame they do deserve and claim credit they don't. That's one thing the troops usually don't see that much of - the internal politics that go on amongst the organizations leadership. If they do see it - that's not a good sign ... but it's almost always there to some degree.
*shrug*
So ... as one of the troops ... what you can do - is to do whatever job you've been assigned as well as you can and constantly learn from what's going on. You'll learn not only about the game but about your fellows and your leaders. Even if the guy's a jack ass himself - do your best to help him win even if you end up with no credit for it. Of course ... helping him win ... does not mean trying to tell him what he should be doing in the middle of a battle. It means doing YOUR job - but knowing when to give him a heads up about something he needs to know about and when to keep your mouth shut.
As you progress, you may well pick up some things, learn to recognize not only what is happening - but what's coming down the pipe - and eventually end up in a position to do something about it yourself. Then you can have you're own little gang of bright eyed FNG's and disgruntled veterans to lead and - if you know what your doing - have some measure of success ... even if it's only to not get your asses kicked as badly as they might have been had you not been there.
When you lose ... try to objectively determine why. What part of it was your fault? What part of it was matters beyond your control? In any case - don't get down about it - that doesn't help. Preserving an attitude of intelligent aggression is important. Whatever happened last time - next time - be determined that you're going to stick it to the enemy.
When you win ... do the same thing. Look at why you won - objectively. Look at what part of it was due to your brilliant leadership - and what part of it was due to superior numbers, the enemies stupidity or just dumb luck. Here - don't let it go to your head. Preserve your attitude of INTELLIGENT aggression. Whatever happened last time - next time - be determined that you're going to go out and stick it to the enemy.
. |
Tabernack en Chasteaux
Next Generation Material Solutions Yulai Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.09.27 19:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:All that said and done, I wouldn't take any of it personally - even if the FC said it in a strange tone.
Oh heck no, hehe, I haven't taken it personally. Well, truth be told, as a human I did a little at first, but then I got over myself. Neither am I trying to deride the FC at all here; he knew what he wanted and I just didn't fit -- and I respect that.
Anyway, that stuff's pretty much all understood at this point. From here, what skills (personal piloting skills, not SP skills) should I focus on to make myself a better scout, and how do I practice them effectively?
a) Probing skills. I'm pretty darn good with my technique -- I was pleasantly surprised the other day to find that I could pin down a 10/10 in a reasonable time frame. This was using only regular core scanner probes/launcher, far from maxed skills, and no scan implants. However, I think my time-to-100% could and must improve if it is to be useful in a gang situation. Also, I lack experiene in combat probing procedures. I understand that minimizing the time that probes are visible is very important (and getting a good initial estimate with dscan will help immensely) -- what else should I take into consideration?
b) Directional scanner skills. I'm decent but not great with this. I learned its most basic use as a GTFO-alarm from my time exploring in lowsec, and I've been practicing in a very simple fashion by using it to locate POSes. The few times I've tried to use it to track people down in a system I found that they just moved around too much. How can I get really good at dscan? I've gone around and made strategic safe spots off-grid from a bunch of gates; I know these will be useful for dscan etc.
c) Other? Signal11th offered to offer some advice on general 0.0 living but I think I mostly have that under control. What else is useful, what can I practice and what will only come with experience?
Once again, thanks to all for your perspectives.
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KaarBaak
40
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Posted - 2011.09.27 20:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
The good thing about combat probing is that you can do it in high sec with little to no risk. Probe down mission runners (or alts or corpmates) for speed.
Also, don't forget the d-scan. Being able to use both in tandem GREATLY increases your value.
Monitor your alliance scout/intel channel and see what kind of reports people are sending and when they are sending them.
Sometimes it's "local spiking red" Sometimes "4 reds in XXX" is sufficient. Sometimes it's "4 reds, XXXsystem, taranis, 2apoc, helios"
Again practice either in your system during non-fleet times or CJ up to highsec and try it out. You can even create your own intel channel to time your messages.
If you get caught, make sure to gather as much intel as you can before you GTFO or pop.
And in the immortal words of Douglas Adams, no matter what happens: Don't Panic.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
2
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Posted - 2011.09.27 21:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
My only real probing tip has to do with controlling your probes from a safe spot.
You can't launch your probes while cloaked - but you can control them. So you can just warp to one safe spot (decloak if you're a cloaked co-ops guy), dump the probes over the side - then warp to another safe spot, cloak up and control them from there.
You'd be surprised what you can do in an Imicus with a cheap cloak this way but if you've got a real co-ops ship - all the better.
You sound like you probably know more than I do about probing but ... if any new people are reading this they may not be aware that you can do that.
*shrug*
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Tabernack en Chasteaux
Next Generation Material Solutions Yulai Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.09.27 22:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Toshiro GreyHawk wrote:
My only real probing tip has to do with controlling your probes from a safe spot.
You can't launch your probes while cloaked - but you can control them. So you can just warp to one safe spot (decloak if you're a cloaked co-ops guy), dump the probes over the side - then warp to another safe spot, cloak up and control them from there.
You'd be surprised what you can do in an Imicus with a cheap cloak this way but if you've got a real co-ops ship - all the better.
You sound like you probably know more than I do about probing but ... if any new people are reading this they may not be aware that you can do that.
*shrug*
.
Yep, I do this already (when I don't have the luxury of being lazy) but excellent advice for the uninitiated. |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn Warped Aggression
44
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Posted - 2011.09.27 22:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Zymurgist wrote:Covert Op ships are awesome scouts. Having someone watching the flanks and rear of a fleet and having an extra set of eyes to check out side routes or bottle necks make them invaluable assets to a fleet. I think your FC may just want something a little bit beefier to act as forward scout to catch targets with.
To top it off, you put an expanded probe launcher on a cov op ship and you will bring home some serious mission runner and safe spot hugger kills for your fleet.
helios is the most useless of all the cov ops.... it has only 2 high slots meaning u can't fit a cloak, probe launcher AND covert cyno like the other three race's covert ops can.
ccp please give the helios a third utility high slot to make the ship useful again |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
42
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Posted - 2011.09.28 01:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tabernack en Chasteaux wrote:Bob Niac wrote:any1 ever see if a +1 warp strength would be a good bonus for a covops? maybe +2 if a tank slot was removed? Heh, I don't really think they need to be harder to catch :P Frigates take forever to target lock with anything bigger than a destroyer.
The last time I was in a Covert Ops (Buzzard), I landed in a drag warp disruptor bubble 100 km from the gate, and was uncloaked by a cargo canister sitting next to a Cynabal (cruiser hull).
I activated my MWD, cloaked, turned out of the bubble, and made an easy escape. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
94
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Posted - 2011.09.28 03:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:helios is the most useless of all the cov ops.... it has only 2 high slots meaning u can't fit a cloak, probe launcher AND covert cyno like the other three race's covert ops can.
With an extra highslot it can fit the cloak, launcher and cyno while still having an active weapon system. Not having a (covert) cyno doesn't make a covops useless: just not as useful for covert fleets. |
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