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C0mbat W0mbat
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Posted - 2011.02.14 22:54:00 -
[1]
Edited by: C0mbat W0mbat on 14/02/2011 22:58:01 Edited by: C0mbat W0mbat on 14/02/2011 22:57:31 problem: ratting bots go SS and cloak as soon as neutrals enter local
possible solution: when they cloak and SS, they dont generate income. Keep them cloaked.
procedure: CCP makes a new type of NPC "ruthless impersonator" or so. These show up randomly in systems with lotsa NPC kills over 16+ hours. They appear in local as players. They are on a SS They appear in ppl&places as "online" The names are taken from the pool of inactive (1 year+) accounts in npc corps, so they can't easily "blue" them They can be scanned down, and quite fast. So this does not effect real players that much. They fly t2/t3 hulls on scan, maybe even for real They dont generate a kill mail They dont fight back, don't have lots of hitpoints They have a bounty, around 10M, so its worth scanning them for real players (no loot though, so they don't compete with officers) They stay in system until found and killed, even over downtime. More than 1 can spawn in one system, even at the same time. Maybe even group them in one SS.
Basic idea: bots can't know if its a real player or not. even if bots scan them down with probes, I doubt they will engage a possible bubble/cyno/covert cyno ship Even if the bots adapt, this gives real players a chance to tackle them. Real players on the other hand should be able to kill one defenseless neutral in their home easily.
I tried to deny a Ultima ratio bot raven some income in scalding pass a while back. but I just can't keep a char logged in 23/7 cause some ppl make their money with RL activities. So having a NPC impersonating a real player, being there 23/7 should dry up the revenue stream for a ratting bot quite fast.
This does not solve mining bots in high sec. It does not solve market or mission running bots. But it may be a start.
PS: I am not bitter, just thinking what might help the game in the long run as I intend to keep playing
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.14 23:00:00 -
[2]
Solution to ratting bots: all rats in 0.0 warp scramble
Now players can actually deal with the bots.
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C0mbat W0mbat
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Posted - 2011.02.14 23:12:00 -
[3]
well, i can see sniping bots coming up then scrams have trouble pointing ships 80km away
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Imigo Montoya
Hysterically Unforgiving Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.02.14 23:19:00 -
[4]
Always nice to see people trying to solve the problem of bots.
However I don't see this being feasible to implement as it effectively creates another (CCP operated) bot. Another problem is that lots of NPC kills is not really an indication of bots - steady killing of small numbers of bots for days on end is a better sign.
Also, having all NPCs in 0.0 scram would be a huge hindrance to actual players who would then get caught if a hostile gang makes it to their system without being reported in intel. Having more chance of scramming frigs could work as a happy medium though.
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Kara Sharalien
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.02.14 23:56:00 -
[5]
Puts me in mind of the statues of justice in silk road.
These are statues that the GM's put anywhere where they think bots are likely to move through, and if you get too close to them, they kill you and then kick you off the server.
Its a solution to the bots at the expense of the players, because the method is totally indiscriminate. Your solution is the same. Sure, it'll make the bots dock and hide, but the players will be unable to tell that they are not real and many legit players will do the same. The Adelaide meet, be there! |
Corina's Bodyguard
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Posted - 2011.02.15 02:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kara Sharalien Puts me in mind of the statues of justice in silk road.
These are statues that the GM's put anywhere where they think bots are likely to move through, and if you get too close to them, they kill you and then kick you off the server.
Its a solution to the bots at the expense of the players, because the method is totally indiscriminate. Your solution is the same. Sure, it'll make the bots dock and hide, but the players will be unable to tell that they are not real and many legit players will do the same.
Actually, the legit player would scan them down and blow them up, because they would not be cloaked.
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Icanhascyno
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Posted - 2011.02.15 07:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
Originally by: Kara Sharalien Puts me in mind of the statues of justice in silk road.
These are statues that the GM's put anywhere where they think bots are likely to move through, and if you get too close to them, they kill you and then kick you off the server.
Its a solution to the bots at the expense of the players, because the method is totally indiscriminate. Your solution is the same. Sure, it'll make the bots dock and hide, but the players will be unable to tell that they are not real and many legit players will do the same.
Actually, the legit player would scan them down and blow them up, because they would not be cloaked.
And a bot could not do the same for what reason?
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Avila Cracko
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Posted - 2011.02.15 11:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Icanhascyno
Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
Originally by: Kara Sharalien Puts me in mind of the statues of justice in silk road.
These are statues that the GM's put anywhere where they think bots are likely to move through, and if you get too close to them, they kill you and then kick you off the server.
Its a solution to the bots at the expense of the players, because the method is totally indiscriminate. Your solution is the same. Sure, it'll make the bots dock and hide, but the players will be unable to tell that they are not real and many legit players will do the same.
Actually, the legit player would scan them down and blow them up, because they would not be cloaked.
And a bot could not do the same for what reason?
well... then bot would not dock... and other players can kill it... or it would attack other players too...
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C0mbat W0mbat
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Posted - 2011.02.15 12:30:00 -
[9]
thats the spirit, if bots try to adapt, they are vulnerable to real players, cause they can't tell the diference without actually going there if they don't adapt, they do not generate income
well, the bot *could* scan down the neutral, send a cloaked ship there to check and after confirming its a NPC, it could send the raven to kill it and if those python injection stuff for perfect probe placement is still available nowadays, that might not even take too long but thats something CCP can work out.
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Sheledra
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Posted - 2011.02.16 02:26:00 -
[10]
Why does it need to be a bot at all? An afk cloaker in system would have the same effect.
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AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport
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Posted - 2011.02.16 02:36:00 -
[11]
And this would completely mess over those trying to ninja-rat in cloaking, interdiction nullifying T3s, as they don't know if the player they're seeing in local is some inactive character or a real NPC-corper (you have no idea how many NPC-corper roaming PVPers I saw in 0.0 while ninjaratting...)
Probe for it? Admiral Ackbar would like a word with you.
I'm all for finding ways to reduce the amount of botters in EVE, but as was said, it shouldn't be at the expense of legitimate players. --- Sig removed till it's relevant again. |
Ephemeron
BeerTia Maniacs
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Posted - 2011.02.16 02:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: XXSketchxx Solution to ratting bots: all rats in 0.0 warp scramble
Now players can actually deal with the bots.
There used to be more warp scrambling rats in 0.0, but CCP went all soft carebear and nerfed them. I still don't understand why, other than that they hate hardcore games.
If you closely examine the evolution of EVE since release till now, you'd see how it gradually, steadily, changes from very hardcore to carebear.
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Shieko Chan
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Posted - 2011.02.16 03:42:00 -
[13]
Quote: If you closely examine the evolution of EVE since release till now, you'd see how it gradually, steadily, changes from very hardcore to carebear.
That's the nature of most games.. But then, the majority of eve gaming population is high sec.. Do you suppose they are catering to their gaming player base?
I remember the "hardcore" past days of which you speak.. massive exploits.. severe imbalances.. Much of the "hardcore" that was changed was good for the game.
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Jennifer Emmagan
Expletus Imperiosus Dominatus Slacker Trade Federation Unlimited
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Posted - 2011.02.16 04:27:00 -
[14]
...or just create a timer that ticks away when you are not docked/POS'd/cloaked/on autopilot. When it hits 20+ hours every day 7 days in a row you know that's probably a bot. Make the timer account based so bots can't just use a few characters on the same account. Make them have to use 4 accounts and cycle between them all day. Make it cost them, make it not worth doing. Normal people sure play 20+ hours in one day one or two times in a row, but not every day. When normal players with the limited resources available to us can see people ratting in null 23.5/7 and CCP does nothing about it you know something is up.
I see people saying that those accounts pay and that's money in CCPs pocket. I don't buy that. I lay 10 to 1 odds those bots are PLEXing their accounts. That's PLEX someone would have bought anyway. So really, if anything, CCP isn't doing it because it's not cost effective to pay someone to sit there and find bots all day. What I don't get is there are clearly players willing to do it as some have, why don't they just start following up on reports of that?
I don't get it. I've seen dev blog posts about bots and their "detection methods". Do they even have ANY detection methods. CCP has the greatest potential for bot detection. It's 1 word:
BOUNTIES.
CCP can see bounty rewards and mission rewards, they could see that people (bots) are getting bounties all day every day without any breaks. No person does that. Lets see, Mr Smith was on from server up to downtime today, he got bounties consistently all day... and yesterday... and the day before... and the day before that so he's been playing for about 4 days straight at least now... gee I wonder if he's a bot...
Really, CCP? Really?
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Imigo Montoya
Hysterically Unforgiving Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.02.16 12:18:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jennifer Emmagan CCP can see bounty rewards and mission rewards, they could see that people (bots) are getting bounties all day every day without any breaks. No person does that. Lets see, Mr Smith was on from server up to downtime today, he got bounties consistently all day... and yesterday... and the day before... and the day before that so he's been playing for about 4 days straight at least now... gee I wonder if he's a bot..
+1
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AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport
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Posted - 2011.02.16 12:53:00 -
[16]
Exequror, 0.5 system belt, permatank, 4x T2 medium drones with a small remote repairer permanently running on each. Log it on after downtime, launch drones, go afk, check it every once in a while when you're awake to see if there's a faction frig's wreck about.
Macrominers these days also make a point of not killing any NPCs at all, if I recall correctly.
That timer idea also causes problems for legitimate players. There are players out there that intentionally park off a cruiser in a 0.0/low-sec system with ECCM running for the express purpose of trolling anyone trying to probe it out. Some of these people run these characters 23/7, logging them on after downtime then just minimizing the client.
These may of course be limited to what amounts to very few players, but those are sitll players that would be adversely affected. I know I've seen some people that would go about mission farming from friday evenings until sunday mornings straight get warnings/temp bans for suspected macro use, when all that was happening was that they were trying to run as many missions as possible during a weekend, oftentimes taking mini-naps while a permatank dominix's drones (slowly) make work of another mission pocket for them.
In other words, any potential solutions should do two things:
1. Not affect legitimate players that use methods of play that look like macro use to outsiders 2. Not cause players that are ultimately planning on macroing to become whitelisted by both players and CCP, thus becoming ignored when they may matter
As for CCP's following up on players' reports, I can guarantee you that they do, as I've seen several groups of macrominers that I recorded for a few days at a time disappear after being reported. Sometimes it takes days, sometimes it takes weeks. That's probably just a side-effect of the time it takes to gather evidence before slapping someone with the banhammer. --- Sig removed till it's relevant again. |
Jokerface666
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.02.16 14:48:00 -
[17]
Ok i'm really going to write something about macroes...
You can NOT outsmart a macro anyhow, BECOUSE Macros work with Code Injections directly into the EVE Client. So a macro KNOWS everything your EVE Client knows AND more.
One of the few ways to stop macros, is to create a launcher for EVE-Online, which will check the actuall eve client if it has been manipulated in any way. (Like most anti cheat tools do on other games) If there is something fishy about your client, you can not start it.
So why isn't ccp coding such a tool: Becouse this thing is digging deep into your personal privacy on the computer, like what programms are running, what programms are installed, are any of them blacklisted, and so on, besides the check of the eve client.
There is another way, in which i am not going to dig into it... would just take to long. w00t w00t wtfpwnage train |
monkfish1234
Caldari Attempted Ninjury 0ccupational Hazzard
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Posted - 2011.02.16 15:29:00 -
[18]
I would imagine the easiest way to find ratting/mission bots would be to search for the accounts with the most ammount of bounty transactions over the last month. over a period this long you should see a clear differance between caracters that are on 23/7 every day. and hardcore carebears.
you'd be looking at something like: (23 x 3) x 30 = 2070 (transactions over a 30 day period of all day every day ratting).
if you compare that to a player putting in 16hrs a day everyday (very hardcore example). (16 x 3) x 30 = 1440 even that is a fairly significant differance and i doubt anyone could keep up ratting 16hrs a day consistently for 30 days.
running this type of lookup would only broaden the gap and the duration increses. And i thing if you made a graph of accounts that were doing 1800-2100, 1000-1800, 500-1000, 0-500. you'd get a pretty good idea of the number of bot account there are ratting every day.
the only way they could try to get around this would be to rat less. ------------------------------------------------
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels.StevieSG
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Jokerface666
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.02.16 15:33:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jokerface666 on 16/02/2011 15:35:51
Originally by: monkfish1234 I would imagine the easiest way to find ratting/mission bots would be to search for the accounts with the most ammount of bounty transactions over the last month. over a period this long you should see a clear differance between caracters that are on 23/7 every day. and hardcore carebears.
you'd be looking at something like: (23 x 3) x 30 = 2070 (transactions over a 30 day period of all day every day ratting).
if you compare that to a player putting in 16hrs a day everyday (very hardcore example). (16 x 3) x 30 = 1440 even that is a fairly significant differance and i doubt anyone could keep up ratting 16hrs a day consistently for 30 days.
running this type of lookup would only broaden the gap and the duration increses. And i thing if you made a graph of accounts that were doing 1800-2100, 1000-1800, 500-1000, 0-500. you'd get a pretty good idea of the number of bot account there are ratting every day.
the only way they could try to get around this would be to rat less.
That was the other thing i didn't wanted to start over... IT should be quit easyily to search for speciall things, like you said, npc kills, docking in a defined time, m¦ of roids cleared, and so on. Only problem, what if a group of 4 guys clean out 51 sleeper sites in 7 hrs, that'll be like 2000 npc kills that day... it IS a possible solution, but be carefull with that, becouse there ARE SOME CRAZY GUYS OUT THERE really playing 23/7 for a few days.... w00t w00t wtfpwnage train |
monkfish1234
Caldari Attempted Ninjury 0ccupational Hazzard
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Posted - 2011.02.16 15:39:00 -
[20]
exactly why i said starting at a month, tbh the longer the sample duration the better.
things like number of npc kills varies far more than the wallet transactions does even for bots. You can be pretty sure that bots kill atleast 1 ship in 20min no matter what spawns. ------------------------------------------------
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels.StevieSG
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Sheledra
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Posted - 2011.02.17 03:49:00 -
[21]
I think you guys will find this interesting:
http://eve-fail.blogspot.com/2011/01/thwarting-macro-part-1-no-ccp-doesnt.html
You can beat macro's it's just not really worth it. Yah it's annoying but what does it gain you, aside from the fun, to stop them.
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Untelo1
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Posted - 2011.03.02 09:50:00 -
[22]
Obviously the best solution would be to remove local in nullsec. This would also make nullsec much more fun. :)
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Pwnage Star
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Posted - 2011.03.02 09:58:00 -
[23]
that will not help since bots will scan local every 2 seconds without a miss.
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Admiral Leviathan
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Posted - 2011.03.02 15:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Pwnage Star that will not help since bots will scan local every 2 seconds without a miss.
covert ops ships FTW though
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