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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.02.16 11:24:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Sealiah Taking this into consideration it'll be a must to move the bpos to the final production spot.
I'd also consider moving the component BPOs to your low sec manufacturing site for logistical reasons. Capital parts are bulkier than the minerals used to manufacture them so you'll need less low sec hauling if you move the minerals rather than the components.
Joint Venture Conglomerate |
Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.16 11:41:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Sealiah I understand the logistics involved - I keep my mining poses in low sec (kept them in 0.0 before that), delivering fuel and some minerals and then coming back safely was never a problem, I never lost a single freighter. I know how to manage the risk.
You need to talk to Kazuo Ishiguro. He runs a mineral recompression service, and was also heavily involved in the Atima carrier construction IPO.
He would also be the best person to carry out your audit but I'm not sure if he still does audits. If not, drop me an EVE mail and I may be able to do the audit.
Quote: If I have only a few investors, it is possible to not pay threw shares, but this option is absolutely necessary if there are more investors. The two corp system (as far as I understand the mechanic) prevents the titans4you incident where bpos were unlocked and stolen thanks to swapping shareholders.
I had 50 investors in One Stop and paid them monthly manually. It took less than an hour. It's not a biggie.
The problem with T4U was that BB was a shareholder, which he should never have been. He purchased the BPOs, which he should not have been allowed to do. The Directors were delinquent, and that's what allowed him to carry out his scam. One corp is enough; three shareholders are enough. Choose someone like Grendell, RAW23 or Kazuo as Chairman with 34%; have two other trusted MD members as the other shareholders with 33% each. Any more and it becomes cumbersome.
Quote:
Originally by: Brock Nelson 3. How are you valuing researched blueprints?
+10% if researched properly (that's a very common sight on the sell orders forum when selling researched bpos of capital parts)
5% to 10% over NPC is fine for sales planning, not for an IPO. If the business fails, a firesale would not necessarily achieve those prices, and the liquidator would have to be compensated. 90% to 100% of NPC is the range you should be looking at.
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Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.16 12:04:00 -
[33]
My question would be, have you done the math, what profit do you expect? Last time when I checked, it was not really profitable to manufacture capital ships. The profit was to small compared to the amount of ISK is required for the production, and the time required for the production.
There are more profitable business out there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shields are like pants, they're supposed to come off. Armor is like the condom once its gone ur ****ed |
Sealiah
Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor
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Posted - 2011.02.16 14:15:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jackie Fisher
Originally by: Sealiah Taking this into consideration it'll be a must to move the bpos to the final production spot.
I'd also consider moving the component BPOs to your low sec manufacturing site for logistical reasons. Capital parts are bulkier than the minerals used to manufacture them so you'll need less low sec hauling if you move the minerals rather than the components.
I have considered that, but it may happen that there will be moments when I will not be able to enter low sec for a day or two because of pirate presance. I do not want that to pause my construction, so I'd prefer to have the bpos to be in high sec. Moving the parts around shouldn't be such a problem (1j into low sec), total of maybe 2j, max 3 with the parts (no way I'll allow the construction to spread more), I am at having components produced 1j away from assembly station.
Originally by: Varo Jan
5% to 10% over NPC is fine for sales planning, not for an IPO. If the business fails, a firesale would not necessarily achieve those prices, and the liquidator would have to be compensated. 90% to 100% of NPC is the range you should be looking at.
I will try to buy them at 90% or so, but if somebody puts in a properly researched capital BPO, I will value it +10% to npc price when calculating the input into the investment program. I was under the impression that was the question, that if somebody inputs a BPO, how would I value it. I will contact you or some other mineral compression service soon (got to look around for them on the market). I may contact you, but can't promise anything.
Originally by: Lost Hamster My question would be, have you done the math, what profit do you expect? Last time when I checked, it was not really profitable to manufacture capital ships. The profit was to small compared to the amount of ISK is required for the production, and the time required for the production.
There are more profitable business out there.
I know that there are more profitable businesses there, sure, station trading or scamming jita local :) But I want to start a fair, stable business that would offer people something not as common as t1 cruisers or battleships. Further, I want the business to grow to offer deadnaughts later.
Exact profit figures will be given (as said earlyer) shortly, give me a little bit of time please :)
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Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.16 15:19:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Sealiah I have considered [moving the component BPOs to my low sec manufacturing site], but it may happen that there will be moments when I will not be able to enter low sec for a day or two because of pirate presance. I do not want that to pause my construction, so I'd prefer to have the bpos to be in high sec. Moving the parts around shouldn't be such a problem (1j into low sec), total of maybe 2j, max 3 with the parts (no way I'll allow the construction to spread more), I am at having components produced 1j away from assembly station.
Sorry, that makes no sense. First, you can start the jobs remotely. You don't have to be sitting in the station. Second, aren't your manufacturing alts going to be in the station anyway? Third, with the right ship, no pirate should deter you. Fourth - and this is key - you need to do your sums on volumes of completed parts vs minerals vs compressed minerals. Moving extremely bulky finished components into low sec would multiply your risks significantly.
Quote: I will contact you or some other mineral compression service soon (got to look around for them on the market). I may contact you, but can't promise anything.
I don't do mineral compression - I do audits. As I said before, Kazuo would be your best bet. He's the expert on mineral compression, is an auditor and was heavily involved in the Atima carrier construction IPO.
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Sealiah
Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor
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Posted - 2011.02.16 20:34:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Varo Jan
Originally by: Sealiah I have considered [moving the component BPOs to my low sec manufacturing site], but it may happen that there will be moments when I will not be able to enter low sec for a day or two because of pirate presance. I do not want that to pause my construction, so I'd prefer to have the bpos to be in high sec. Moving the parts around shouldn't be such a problem (1j into low sec), total of maybe 2j, max 3 with the parts (no way I'll allow the construction to spread more), I am at having components produced 1j away from assembly station.
Sorry, that makes no sense. First, you can start the jobs remotely. You don't have to be sitting in the station. Second, aren't your manufacturing alts going to be in the station anyway? Third, with the right ship, no pirate should deter you. Fourth - and this is key - you need to do your sums on volumes of completed parts vs minerals vs compressed minerals. Moving extremely bulky finished components into low sec would multiply your risks significantly.
Quote: I will contact you or some other mineral compression service soon (got to look around for them on the market). I may contact you, but can't promise anything.
I don't do mineral compression - I do audits. As I said before, Kazuo would be your best bet. He's the expert on mineral compression, is an auditor and was heavily involved in the Atima carrier construction IPO.
Ok! I will be making the calculations shortly. Looking for mineral compression service now, will also considering keeping all bpos in low sec. I hope to check the pricing of a few at least before I pick one or two. This can take some time.
Also, Chribba will be our third party watching over investors isk in case we do succeed to build a good model and get the investors rounded up (read third post after updates).
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Brock Nelson
Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited SRS.
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Posted - 2011.02.17 05:29:00 -
[37]
I noticed that you haven't really answered my question regarding giving free packs to investors that will result in losing 1/4 of profit for the month.
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Sealiah
Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor
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Posted - 2011.02.17 17:54:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Brock Nelson I noticed that you haven't really answered my question regarding giving free packs to investors that will result in losing 1/4 of profit for the month.
It will not be 1/4 of the profit for a month since after noticing the copy time, it's been decided that the bpos will be moved to low sec. Because of that we'll make more carriers per month than just 4.
And remember, only shareholders holding 1/19 or more will be eligable to use this option. Plus, I may reduce it to once every 3 or 4 months depending on how it'll influence the calculations.
xls is in work!
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Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
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Posted - 2011.02.17 20:10:00 -
[39]
Replied to your eve-mail.
Grendell ♥
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Sealiah
Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor
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Posted - 2011.02.17 21:07:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Sealiah on 17/02/2011 21:07:24
Originally by: Grendell Replied to your eve-mail.
In reaction to your post I have put a few changes into the system! Thank you for willing to be our third party and bringing in a precise offer so fast!
EVERYONE WHO IS KEEPING TRACK, PLEASE REVIEW FIRST 3 POSTS AGAIN AND IGNORE POSTS BEFORE THIS POST
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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.02.17 22:04:00 -
[41]
Grendell, How much are you securing as a thirdûparty?
Sealiah, When do you expect to issue your first dividend? How are you paying for the minerals?
Contact me if you need a mineral supplier.
BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange |
Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.17 22:48:00 -
[42]
Grendell, should the worst happen, would you be acting as liquidator? If so, what would your costs be?
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LadyOfWrath
Caldari Ships N Stones
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Posted - 2011.02.17 23:20:00 -
[43]
@ Grendell - be weary when selecting where all this will be produced. SV has been at war with Care Factor (CVA pets) for the past two weeks, then this post shows up. www.snatchvictory.com
As long as they keep production away from the Mamet area or ensure their CVA protectors can keep freighters from getting ganked I'm all for it. Otherwise this might be bad for investors. It just doesn't look good when I live down there with my alt for a week and see 7 unescorted freighters go through.
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Sealiah
Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor
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Posted - 2011.02.18 09:10:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Grendell, How much are you securing as a thirdûparty?
Sealiah, When do you expect to issue your first dividend? How are you paying for the minerals?
Contact me if you need a mineral supplier.
First dividend will be issued after first full month (30d) of production. Grendell will be keeping his hand as the CEO and shareholder of all the bpos, so basically I won't even touch them before they are locked in the final station.
Originally by: LadyOfWrath @ Grendell - be weary when selecting where all this will be produced. SV has been at war with Care Factor (CVA pets) for the past two weeks, then this post shows up. www.snatchvictory.com
As long as they keep production away from the Mamet area or ensure their CVA protectors can keep freighters from getting ganked I'm all for it. Otherwise this might be bad for investors. It just doesn't look good when I live down there with my alt for a week and see 7 unescorted freighters go through.
The production corp will not be in any alliance, the alts used for hauling will not be in this corp, this way they will not be war decced if the corp does. The production will not take place in yong (most obvious system near mamet and 1j from high sec) because a big NBSI presence there (plus a nasty undock from that station). I'm still chosing between a few locations in either amarr, gallente or caldari space. But before we got the bpos, I still got time to make the final pick.
Originally by: Varo Jan Grendell, should the worst happen, would you be acting as liquidator? If so, what would your costs be?
Yes he will be acting as liquidator, as stated earlyer, he will be keeping hand on all the BPOs as the only shareholder and CEO of the corp owning them.
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Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.02.18 09:20:00 -
[45]
I still find it odd that you are only just working out the numbers now and still havent given an estimated a return for investors. As I said before do you have any idea what you are going to get out of this? This should have been done before you tried to launch.
I see you have put some numbers into an earlier post. I guess I'll have to do the maths myself. How many carriers can you squeeze out of a bpo per month, assuming you have enough component bpos to max production of the ships? I'm guessing 4 per month max? If you are right about the 200m profit per unit, that is a maximum of 4x4x200m so 3.2bil profit per month. If you are taking 5% of that, you are doing this for 160m per month? (plus a return on your investment if you issue yourself shares, 150m?)
Doesnt seem worthwhile to me. You could earn that trading with 1 bil, for far less effort.
My numbers might be off as i cant be bothered to do the research, hence why I am asking for clarification of your calculations.
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Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.02.18 09:48:00 -
[46]
Looked over your numbers, tbh considering the build cost/time, the risk of loss in lowsec etc, then not only the building is an issue but you need a substantial turnover of products each month for the business to be profitable.
have you secured a regular buyer? or did you plan to market the items on the forums?
i am considering a moderate investment, ill be keeping an eye on the thread.
Best of luck with your Business.
Candy.
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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.02.18 09:50:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk How many carriers can you squeeze out of a bpo per month, assuming you have enough component bpos to max production of the ships? I'm guessing 4 per month max?
IIRC takes between 10 and 11 days for the hull build at an NPC station with a PE1 print.
Joint Venture Conglomerate |
Primeara Ho
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Posted - 2011.02.18 10:48:00 -
[48]
The bpo security looks good, so will you hand out the full-api keys of your accounts to investors or will you get performance audits done? (the api keys are cheaper of course :D)
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.18 10:53:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Primeara Ho The bpo security looks good, so will you hand out the full-api keys of your accounts to investors or will you get performance audits done? (the api keys are cheaper of course :D)
Using an auditor would be best. Handing out your API to anyone would mean they would all know where your build location is so they could camp it.
Stop trying to get easy kills!
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Primeara Ho
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Posted - 2011.02.18 10:58:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Primeara Ho on 18/02/2011 11:02:14 Im not out for easy kills but i see your point. A Auditor may also get some of his payment by the auditing fund so it wont be to much of additional costs.
edit:
pending "performance" audits and a ROI that is reasonable(and backed by a spreadsheet) im willing to invest 2 bil.
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Sealiah
Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor
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Posted - 2011.02.18 12:36:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Sealiah on 18/02/2011 12:40:34 ESTIMATED RETURN FOR INVESTORS:
The factor limiting production is the capital drone bay, since there are 4-5x the amount required than any other of the components. That's why it's the only one we need two of.
One Capital Drone Bay BPO researched to a relatively low production efficiency, PE: 5 lets say, will produce 243 units of the capital drone bay per 30 days. We got two, so we can produce up to 486 units. It'd take 32 days to run a carrier bpo 3 times with a PE: 1.
So our production limit, considering that the target ME on carrier bpos is met, we would have demand of 51, 46, 41, 36 per carrier, giving us: 3x51 (153), 3x46 (138), 3x41 (123); 414 so far, so still 72 left! EXACTLY for 2 more carriers.
This means that we would use almost 100% of the possible production of the 4 carrier bpos, producing a total of 3+3+3+2 carriers per month = 11 carriers if we meet our full production limit.
This gives us 11*150m (according to bad minerals prices)= 1.65b isk per month profit.
That naturally is only IF we meet our full production capabilities on these bpos, which I don't see a problem in happening if we have the orders for them. And the orders will come, although I don't think it'll happen within the first months that we will get such a big order/sell count.
Is that a satisfying estimate of profits?
1.65b -50m grendells fee -5% = 1.52b. If you have invested 1b isk, it'd mean you've got 1/19th of the shares, so you would get a monthly payout of: 80m isk. Mind that this is counted considering buying very expensive minerals, which we will not do, so you can easily estimate even around 100m isk, so 10% a month. It's not a promise, but it's possible if all the above cryteria are met.
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Zcalo
Gallente Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor
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Posted - 2011.02.18 12:49:00 -
[52]
Put me up for 1b :o) Never try, never fail =)
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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.02.18 13:03:00 -
[53]
How will you be cash flowing the minerals - i.e is that included in the original 19 bil?
At a minimum you'll need to keep 8 carriers worth on minerals in production on an ongoing basis which is very roughly is 4 bil+ ISK tied up.
Joint Venture Conglomerate |
Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.02.18 13:19:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jackie Fisher How will you be cash flowing the minerals - i.e is that included in the original 19 bil?
At a minimum you'll need to keep 8 carriers worth on minerals in production on an ongoing basis which is very roughly is 4 bil+ ISK tied up.
Would like to see the answer to this as well. I ran some numbers on this sort of operation many months ago, and I couldnt get to a 10% RIO given the working capital that was needed on top of the bpos to keep full production rolling, unless i didnt take a cut.
I also still wonder why this is worth it for you at a monthly fee of 80m(?) as per your calculations above?
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.02.18 13:28:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 18/02/2011 13:34:20
Originally by: Sealiah
Production model: (exact figures will be available soon!)
- Minerals will then be transported to BPO component station.
- Components will be transported to the final building station.
- Final assembly in a low sec station.
Estimated profit margin:
??
Typical ME2 carrier BPOs require around 120 capital components pieces (give or take) EACH and these components are 10K m3 each. It'll take you a minimum 4 jump freighter round-trips, just to make ONE carrier. Depending on where you plan to situate you low-sec assembly factory, the fuel costs will range from silly (2-6mil per jump) to absurd (10-20mil per jump). These operating costs will bite deep into the net profit, not to mention the time & effort wasted for such arrangements. The varying degrees of mineral compression techniques is integral to the production whole process - which as far as your production model is concerned, have failed to account.
Another part which had not been touched is your slot capacity, planned output capacity and sustainability.
Looking at your list of BPOS, without going too much into detail with a wall of figures, your biggest slot time length for capital component production is 234hrs (about 10 days) for each of the Capital Drone Bay. So, this looks like a planned max output of 10-12 carriers a month - which needs about 6-8 bil working capital to start off.
At a conservative 100mil net profit per carrier, that's 1 - 1.2bil net profit per month. Your conservative minimum salary is 50mil/month and rough minimum investor ROI per billion/month is 50mil or 5%.
I seriously doubt the above can be sustained indefinitely for mere pittance, so this whole program looks like it's either just for your experience or cred building. Nothing wrong with either, just pointing it out so that folks are clear on its purpose.
Edit: fixed format error/wordings |
Sealiah
Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor
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Posted - 2011.02.18 17:55:00 -
[56]
There will be around 4b isk of working capital for a start, later it'll quickly build up so don't worry about it (5% covers that pretty well with my share income, there won't be much of a problem increasing it).
Well, it's not just about making the isk you know, it's also about the security of the process. The process it self isn't that safe if you just trade in stations, hand over billions to turn around. I'm making a business that is starting small, but will grow into dreadnaught production in very long term planning. I wish not only to give a stable income for the people who invest, but also make a brand of my own.
I'm sure this plan will work out well, it should be long term stable, it should produce enough isk to satisfy small regular needs of the investors and ther's virtually no way to lose on this.
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Dhund Wyer
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.18 17:57:00 -
[57]
Its not much, but I'll put in 150 million ISK for now.
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Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.02.18 23:33:00 -
[58]
Mmmm, re-read the lot of the topic. My earlier question was green flag's by using sell order forums (avoids any market costs eroding margins.)
There is a gap in your security. the bpo's are locked down correct. however, who is in control of actually selling the items? you are producing them, so once produced you have the end products, whats stopping you from selling to a buy order/giving to alt & sell on forums & doing a runner? you say Grendell has the isk to sell, but how do the products get from you to him.
Can Grendell please confirm his role in the business?
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.02.19 02:25:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Sealiah Well, it's not just about making the isk you know, it's also about the security of the process. The process it self isn't that safe if you just trade in stations, hand over billions to turn around. I'm making a business that is starting small, but will grow into dreadnaught production in very long term planning. I wish not only to give a stable income for the people who invest, but also make a brand of my own.
I'm sure this plan will work out well, it should be long term stable, it should produce enough isk to satisfy small regular needs of the investors and ther's virtually no way to lose on this.
Process security is really a red herring, the road has been paved with best-practises and mistakes along the way that it isn't hard to arrive at almost iron-clad deal that satisfies most investors' concerns.
Sustaining monthly production of 10-12 carriers is not small, it is a LOT of work. Neither will the business grow into dreads production without further public monies injection into the program & CCP re-balance of the dreads - your profits are insufficient and none of the investors' profit are plowed back into program.
This almost looks like a ploy to jumpstart a corp/alliance's cap production capability through the use of public money, if one was paranoid as to the true motive.
In any case, I have a question. If an investors(s) decides to pull the plug, let's say after 1 month, what are your contingencies for it? That said, is there a minimum period of time where the investment will be locked down? |
Sealiah
Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor
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Posted - 2011.02.19 09:24:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Sealiah on 19/02/2011 09:24:25
Originally by: Dhund Wyer Its not much, but I'll put in 150 million ISK for now.
Put you up on the investors list :) Thank you.
Originally by: Candy Oshea Mmmm, re-read the lot of the topic. My earlier question was green flag's by using sell order forums (avoids any market costs eroding margins.)
There is a gap in your security. the bpo's are locked down correct. however, who is in control of actually selling the items? you are producing them, so once produced you have the end products, whats stopping you from selling to a buy order/giving to alt & sell on forums & doing a runner? you say Grendell has the isk to sell, but how do the products get from you to him.
Can Grendell please confirm his role in the business?
I'll eve mail him to confim his role in the business.
I'm providing the working capital, so it'd be... Strange if I was to run away with the carriers and not so much of a profit for me either, plus ruining my reputation. You have to trust me on that I won't be scamming you on that part.
Originally by: Sturmwolke
In any case, I have a question. If an investors(s) decides to pull the plug, let's say after 1 month, what are your contingencies for it? That said, is there a minimum period of time where the investment will be locked down?
Edit :
Also, let's look at it another way. Each 1 billion from the investor is costing you about 50mil in net profit per month. In production terms, that's about 80-95 mil per carrier. Assuming an avg BPC pricing around 3-5mil per max run capital component, the sum covers 16-31 bpcs.
In other words, you can remove a considerable amount of the capital needed, primaries being the lesser 5 capital component BPOs and some of the mid-volume BPOs. Therefore, needing 19bil for a complete set of BPO starts to make less sense ..... unless of course, you're feeling generous and prefer doing charities for other people.
If an investor decides to pull the plug I will put him up on the list of people wanting out and I will pay out their investment as soon as I will be able to. I think I will limit these not sooner than 2-3 months after we start.
If I make it the BPO way - there is little place for error, plus I prefer to have everything at hand, not running around buying the bpcs all the time from jita/wherever. Logistics would get again another step more complicated. You can call it a charity, I call it making the manufacturers life easier and your money safer, since it'll all be locked down.
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