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Cheekyhoe
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Posted - 2011.02.21 00:46:00 -
[1]
This lays on the premise to the new changes to the officer Rats to make them more of a challenge, in most cases this is seen as a good idea since being able to solo the top end officers in a poorly fit thorax is kind of laughable.
The Proposal is to extend this new feature to all non complex Faction spawn, you could increase this to complex faction spawns too but this could get out of hand.
This would mean that Macros would be useless against such rats as they would not be able to solo them in T2 fit ravens or whatever is the norm.
As a side effect it'd also help CCP sort out the loot tables so that faction loot can justly drop once again, as ammo and tags which is fair at the moment can be very disappointing.
Lastly if these rats could also be escorted with frigates or have warp scramblers themselves this would improve the amount of marco deaths to the system.
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.02.21 12:45:00 -
[2]
hum i'm pretty sure macros will simply avoid officiers spawn and do something else. not sure it will help much. moreover scramble would hurt the real player. bot will know ennemy is too dangerous way quicker than real player. however there may have solution on this type of things ---------------- ** Wormhole Trading ** |
Malcanis
Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.02.21 12:51:00 -
[3]
One thing that would go a long way would be to actuially ban bot accounts and remove any ISK they created.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.02.21 13:03:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Malcanis One thing that would go a long way would be to actuially ban bot accounts ...
I agree! And definitely not the pointless two day bans they give out these days (if you believe the reports on the forums). -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Gypsy Band
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Posted - 2011.02.21 14:16:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Malcanis One thing that would go a long way would be to actuially ban bot accounts and remove any ISK they created.
CCP employ over 600 people. Make 1 persons job to hunt bots and give them 1 year or permanent bans. Destroying their ISK would also be good.
3 day bans and relying completely on players reporting is not working.
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Cheekyhoe
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Posted - 2011.02.21 23:19:00 -
[6]
This bring back the old problem of you bring a knife I'll bring a gun.
If CCP cracks down on botters they will just add random to the scripts and use alternate characters or some crap.
If CCP changed the rats to make them more surprising or harder they would not bother as a low skilled cheap raven pilot would have no benefit to them, so they either stop or buy a expensive ship which can.
In short CCP would make the game more fun for us the player, less rewarding for bots and everyone wins right?
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Aerich e'Kieron
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Posted - 2011.02.22 02:30:00 -
[7]
I am for increasing the difficulty of your every day rats, including missions and such.
May be a stretch, but having to use more than one (unless elite-fit) person to run a level 4 mission would make things a bit more interesting.
Also, increase the bounties and rewards proportionally to the increase in difficulty with the rats.
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2011.02.22 07:39:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 22/02/2011 07:39:42
Originally by: Aerich e'Kieron I am for increasing the difficulty of your every day rats, including missions and such.
May be a stretch, but having to use more than one (unless elite-fit) person to run a level 4 mission would make things a bit more interesting.
Also, increase the bounties and rewards proportionally to the increase in difficulty with the rats.
That would be good even if it probably will not hurt bots for more than a few days.
About the "employ 1 person to hunt bots only", I suspect CCP has more than 1 guy doing that.
Let's look a few numbers: - 300K accounts around the world; - no more than 8 work hours in a day; - let's be very generous and say that you can investigate 6 bots at the same time and that you need 1 hour to be sure (remember, CCP need to be 99,99% sure it is a bot) that each guy is a bot.
Result: 48 suspected bots investigated in 1 work day. 5 day a week. 240 suspected bots investigated. less than 1/1000 of EVE population.
With those numbers you can't even keep in check the RTM guys and you check only 1 time zone every day and a single botter, if not reported as suspicious could go on for 3 years without being bothered.
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.02.22 17:19:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 22/02/2011 17:20:48
Originally by: Venkul Mul About the "employ 1 person to hunt bots only", I suspect CCP has more than 1 guy doing that.
Let's look a few numbers: - 300K accounts around the world; - no more than 8 work hours in a day; - let's be very generous and say that you can investigate 6 bots at the same time and that you need 1 hour to be sure (remember, CCP need to be 99,99% sure it is a bot) that each guy is a bot.
Result: 48 suspected bots investigated in 1 work day. 5 day a week. 240 suspected bots investigated. less than 1/1000 of EVE population.
Rather than manually investigating each and every player in the game, wouldn't it make sense to build routines that flag activity? By tracking players with the most exceptional activity, most of the player base can be eliminated from any investigation. For exampleà Playing 100+ hours a week without going afk for any amount of time doesn't make you a bot, but it is suspicious. Mining 10M m3 of ore in a week doesn't make you a bot, but it is suspicious. Completing 250+ Lv4 missions in a week doesn't make you a bot, but it is suspicious. Killing 5,000+ belt rats in a week doesn't make you a bot, but it is suspicious.
By investigating only the players with the most suspicious levels of activity, that 1 employee won't need to investigate all 300k accounts. Once an account has reasonably been proven to be a bot, it's not much of a reach to find out who the bot is working for, and from there any other bots working for that player. Once you have an active player that's known to be operating bots, looking at the players he associates with is likely to turn up many more bots. Much like pulling at a thread in cloth, once a single thread comes loose, the whole thing starts to come unraveled.
Once you have several players that are well documented bot operators, don't just ban the bots. Very public banning of the bots and their operators is needed in order to show players that there actually are repercussions to breaking the EULA. Once players at large understand that CCP does take the EULA seriously and is doing something about it, much of the nonRMT bot problem will disappear on its own.
Sure, smarter bot operators will change their activities in an attempt to not stand out, but if it's the most effective bots that cause the most harm to the game, wouldn't having all bots actively trying to be less effective be a minor victory?
+1 for getting rid of bots
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.02.22 20:10:00 -
[10]
Durnin the routines can get you only so far.
Let's say CCP has a routine flagging accounts logging more than 16 hours day for 3+ days in a week week.
At that point the employee should activate more advanced tracking routines aimed at the accounts (you can't have then always tracking every account, it would require too many database calls and use too much CPU).
After some day the employee should check the first results: - the subjects have reduced the activity to normal levels - keep them under observation for a time. This kind of choice can be done automatically. - the subjects continue to do an abnormal level of activity: the employee need to check what they do. And that is where he start spending a lot of time that is hard to automatize.
The first part of the process, selecting the people to check is almost totally automatic, but the actual check to be sure the guy is a bot is time consuming. Sure, you don't need to really check every account selecting them randomly, but then there are plenty of new accounts every day and following the tracks of professional botters can be hard. I suspect that my hypothesis of around 50 accounts checked (not tracked, but actually selected for the latter part of the check for probable bot use) is fairly precise.
CCP can do mass bans only when the botters use programs with some identifiable routine (and they buy the bot available on the net to check for identifiable routines, it was in a Dev post some time ago). Or if they get a key guy in a RMT net and can ban all the linked accounts in one go.
Then there are the tricks that a botter can use to reduce the chance to be identified.
If i was a RMT guy or even a "normal" guy botting to increase my income I would not run the same account 23 hours day. I would accept a lower return and run 2 accounts, botting for 11 hours with each of them, that way I would be "under the radar" for a lot of automatic scan systems. If the numbers that we see for the bots are right, "loosing" the isk to purchase 2 PLEX instead of one will be the last problem for the botter.
I am sure that someone dong that for a living will find way better ways to foil detection that my simple idea. So it is not easy and it is time consuming.
CCP is a company and they will try to balance around the point where the benefit of removing botters is equivalent or higher to the personnel costs they are incurring to ban them. That is why they are hunting RMTers way more vigorously than "normal" guys botting. Better return for hour of work.
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.02.22 21:00:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 22/02/2011 21:00:18
Originally by: Venkul Mul Durnin the routines can get you only so far.
I understand that, and agree entirely. There's only so much that behavior tracking can do before good old fashioned manual investigation is required. Over time, behavior tracking will give you a much better signal to noise ratio and a place to start investigating, but that's all it can do.
Originally by: Venkul Mul CCP is a company and they will try to balance around the point where the benefit of removing botters is equivalent or higher to the personnel costs they are incurring to ban them. That is why they are hunting RMTers way more vigorously than "normal" guys botting. Better return for hour of work.
I'd think that the balance point would more likely be, where bot accounts removed and cost incurred doing it is offset by player accounts saved and recovered. There's probably very little evidence showing that in comparison to the number of new accounts created specifically for botting, players are leaving in with any frequeancy specifically due to botting or that players would return en mass if botting were eliminated. That lack of data would make the math rather one sided in favor of the status quo.
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freshspree
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Posted - 2011.02.25 06:50:00 -
[12]
Edited by: freshspree on 25/02/2011 06:54:32 Banning of bot accounts for long periods WILL be abused especially if you have to report one. CCP can't employ investigating bots and make it work. It's using too much man power on something that isn't worth it. The man power can be used for better stuff. Just remove plex and lets see guys rage.
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