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Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:34:00 - [1] Eve used to feel huge but with 0m warp to, jump drives, highways and considerably more players space now feels small. I have two suggestions on how to fix this without reverting to any old mechanics. - Add 1400 more low sec systems. Low sec is the frontier ... not null sec. Null sec is where players take the role of Concord. - * only have you lose status if you are in view of station/gate while globally tagged. - Add Kuiper belt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt) and Oort cloud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oort_cloud) features to low sec solar systems. Their mechanics are on the line of: - You can warp to the edge of these sites but entry point is "random", basically you have to just point your ship and warp. Fleet warp would even throw people around randomly, warp to member too ... meeting someone in there would be purely by random "luck". - Can't probe there, too many objects to scramble results and of course too distant from center of solar system so that probes from there don't do anything. - Can't bookmark there for the same reason, getting a fixed point is too difficult - Once you enter these sites get "denser" preventing access by ship size and agility. This means that the most difficult to access (and most valuable) content will be frigate only. ... That should be enough to spark the imagination for what could be done with this kinda thing. .
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:48:00 - [2] you're right, apart from the lowsec idea. Lowsec sucks balls and should be replaced by 0.0 or something.
cytheras wrath	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:51:00 - [3] personally, i think they need to make asteroid belts actually belts, and not random U-shaped clusters of rocks, people can warp to one of maybe 16+ set 'entry' points for these belts, then warp off grid many times to get deeper into belts, and exploration of these belts can yield profitable finds, like a null sec ore, in high sec that no one has found before, but the catch is its near by a pirate hot spots, so battleships and cruisers spawn there frequently. as for Oort clouds, i don't wanna spend a few min's in warp to reach a random place in the deep system. but i can agree with belts being just outside the solar rings. maybe add new locations to moon harvest etc with planetoids.
Tom Gerard Caldari RPS holdings Huzzah Federation	Posted - 2011.02.22 16:15:00 - [4] Originally by: cytheras wrath null sec ore, in high sec Thanks for posting
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.22 17:17:00 - [5] Originally by: Ravenal Eve used to feel huge but with 0m warp to, jump drives, highways and considerably more players space now feels small... Identifying the cause of a problem and then proposing a solution that is only marginally related .. how very modern of you Low-sec sucks, it is paranoid high-sec nothing more. Until it is made into an actual alternative to the other choices Eve offers, adding more suckage is counter productive. Slow Eve down by changing the long-range capabilities like bridges/cynos and you don't need to add anything. Once CCP gets their act together and bans all bots plus their operators, population will drop 10-15% or more so there is still ample time to find a proper solution.
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.02.22 17:33:00 - [6] make the deep belts be unsecured like low/nullsec, and then there would be appropriate risk to match the abc ore reward. nothing but pvp is adequate risk for getting at abc ores but also make it iffy. make it so that the low/null sec spots are not announced, so that the pirates and carebears don't really know if concord is going to show up till they see the first superrare ore. asteroid belts do need an upgrade this might help. as for the oort cloud, that sounds like fun. if they add that then i won't need to use my high slot on my hauling mammoth for a cloaky, and i can keep the tractor beam.
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:26:00 - [7] Edited by: Ravenal on 22/02/2011 18:33:19 Edited by: Ravenal on 22/02/2011 18:27:09 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Identifying the cause of a problem and then proposing a solution that is only marginally related .. how very modern of you Low-sec sucks, it is paranoid high-sec nothing more. Until it is made into an actual alternative to the other choices Eve offers, adding more suckage is counter productive. low sec sucks because there isn't enough of it and it's content is useless. So adding more low sec isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm not saying 0m, highways, bridges and that are the "problem", they just make eve smaller which in itself is fine, I just suggest adding content that makes eve bigger again without removing these nice additions. Very modern of me yes ... Originally by: Robert Caldera you're right, apart from the lowsec idea. Lowsec sucks balls and should be replaced by 0.0 or something. ... or something, like adding what I'm suggesting ;) Originally by: Jaik7 make the deep belts be unsecured like low/nullsec, and then there would be appropriate risk to match the abc ore reward. as for the oort cloud, that sounds like fun. if they add that then i won't need to use my high slot on my hauling mammoth for a cloaky, and i can keep the tractor beam. No, these shouldn't just be ore belts, think dynamic playground ... where sites similar to exploration sites spawn here and there ... A key element here is once you enter you can't just warp out, you have to fly back to a "clearer" spot to enter warp... pods would be small enough to exit. There could be spots of different density, so for example if a frigate enters a cruiser dense zone it'd be able to warp out but if it enteres a frigate dense zone it couldn't (pod could). .
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.02.22 20:06:00 - [8] rave, that is kinda what i'm thinking, but i didnt get the whole density scale. the density idea is great! it would actually make there be a point to training frigate skills, as well as giving the mining frigates more of a purpose beyond noob stepping stone. for instance, if the abc ores only spawned in dense areas, then it would force people to get out of their hulks and use a navitas. it would give a new niche to mining, while (probably) not saturating the market with rare minerals. they should still have pockets which concord does not patrol if you get battleship rats and abc ores in there, that stuff only spawns in nullsec, so nullsec rules should apply
Manalapan Dynasty Banking General Tso's Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.22 20:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Jaik7 rave, that is kinda what i'm thinking, but i didnt get the whole density scale. the density idea is great! it would actually make there be a point to training frigate skills, as well as giving the mining frigates more of a purpose beyond noob stepping stone. for instance, if the abc ores only spawned in dense areas, then it would force people to get out of their hulks and use a navitas. it would give a new niche to mining, while (probably) not saturating the market with rare minerals. they should still have pockets which concord does not patrol if you get battleship rats and abc ores in there, that stuff only spawns in nullsec, so nullsec rules should apply Alright sense I have some confusion on this I want to make sure I understand this. You want higher density astroids sections in your new belts. So, you would need a smaller ship to get in to mine the ore. The issue is that miners and I am sure my mining army would do this: 1) Find the Dense Spot 2) Drill through it to the ABC Ores, because really you are giving them an easy location with a ton of ore in mining range with a shiny present at the end of it. I don't think that will help having 0.0 Ores in High Sec (maybe low...maybe). The belt idea is interesting though but I have a hunch a pain to code. I do like the change of astroid belts to be more belt like but I do not think that would be great for game play. ------ Support Manalapan for CSM! Fixing EVE The Player That Makes EVE Stronger Manalapan Campaign
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.02.22 22:53:00 - [10] Man, my understanding of the proposed mechanic is that barren asteroids, unminable ones, block entry to the richer ones. any ship is capable of entering, but only increasingly smaller ships can warp directly out. example, as you get further into an asteroid belt, there are more and larger asteroids everywhere, until it gets to the point that you can't align and warp in a hulk, then as you get further and further in, you filter out increasingly small ship warps until you're left with space too small for a frigate to warp out of and there's rich arkonor there. or maybe the idea is that there's increasingly dead deadspace areas as you get further in. my understanding is that you can't mine your way in, and anything can enter, but you might have trouble leaving.

Sheledra	Posted - 2011.02.22 23:41:00 - [11] I always feel huge. Sorry, Sorry. Some jokes just have to be made.
Dryson Bennington	Posted - 2011.02.23 00:38:00 - [12] I was in a mission early and came across an asteroid colony. I thought how interesting would it be if instead if building the same old POS tower that new types of POS could be selected to build. Each POS would still be small, medium, large and Pirate but instead of being the regular tower the owner could pick from three designs for each type of POS. Each type of POS in the size class would be considered T1-Prototype T2-Basic and T3-Advanced. The prototype base would consist of same small attributes as a small towered POS but would be built around an asteroid style outpost. The T2 version would be 3% more efficient that the Prototype version. The Advanced version would be 5% more efficient as the Prototype version. The same would hold true for the Medium and Large size POS. What would be different is that Each POS would have it's own fitting screen similar to a ship fitting screen where the various module would be equipped and then shown on the asteroid surface. All weapon's batteries would be present on the outside of the shield as they normaly are but would be built onto the surface of the asteroid. The asteroid configuration would be similar to the mission colonies where the twisted roids have been used to base the colony on. The Pirate Cove would be only useable in .3 to 0.0. The Pirate Cove would be able to be cloaked with all of the ships or members of the corp present being cloaked as well as long as they were within the shield of the Cove. The size of the POS would be the same as a small T1 POS but the capabilties of the POS would be centered around the cloak and Cynosural generator. The Cloak would last 15 minutes and would require ten minutes of recharge time to be able to be used again. The CFG would would be able to be deployed no more than ten jumps from the Cove and would not depend on the POS owner's skills but could be used by anyone in the corp. New classes of Pirate Raiding Ships or PRS' would be created in the frigate to battleship size class that would be able to use the Cove's CFG but would not be able to use regular Cyno generators. The PRS ships would center around fast and high DPS raiding ships. The frigate's have a dps rate 300% of the normal frigate damage rate where the BS would have 200% above the best T1 battleship. The velocities would be 250% above normal for frigates and 200% for battleships. The other characteristic's relating to armor shields and hull would be 10% lower than the PRS' T1 version.
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.02.23 00:46:00 - [13] dryson, 9/10 for original idea .2/10 for trying to hijack someone else's thread with it this thread is about making eve feel like space is really damn big.
Shieko Chan	Posted - 2011.02.23 01:42:00 - [14] Quote: personally, i think they need to make asteroid belts actually belts, good, I need to keep my pants from falling down. Quote: - You can warp to the edge of these sites but entry point is "random", basically you have to just point your ship and warp. Fleet warp would even throw people around randomly, warp to member too ... meeting someone in there would be purely by random "luck". How random when you aren't random flying in from a direction to a gate. The way I see it .. this is just more places for pirates to camp. Quote: - Can't probe there, too many objects to scramble results and of course too distant from center of solar system so that probes from there don't do anything. Oh? What objects are you talking about.. Asteroids? Have you probed in an asteroid belt? It works.. rocks don't show on a probe report...unless you are using a survey scanner. The idea of probes is they use differing signals and methods to identify objects in space. Rocks are not ships. You could make a region of space less able to scan some things due to background interference... but not all things scan the same way. Quote: - Can't bookmark there for the same reason, getting a fixed point is too difficult This already exists.. Deadspace zones with a gate disallow book marking. Quote: - Once you enter these sites get "denser" preventing access by ship size and agility. This means that the most difficult to access (and most valuable) content will be frigate only. This already exists in dead space zones. My biggest problem with the ideas here is that I don't feel they would make space seem bigger... they would add aggravation but that doesn't necessarily equate to hugeness. I don't mind some of the ideas because they are already in the game.. but space seems big when space is big. Add more systems .. and yes they can be low sec... as long as we do not split up high sec the way some have suggested.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.02.23 01:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Ravenal Eve used to feel huge but with 0m warp to, jump drives, highways and considerably more players space now feels small. You need to elaborate on that one more.. It's crowded because of a pile of reasons imho: - instant local - low number of points of interaction within solar systems - chokepoints (gates/pipes especially) - warp to zero - projection of power via jumpbridge/cyno - more and more podpilots - broken intel system The crowding then is 'visible' by several symptoms: - crappy risk vs. reward in low sec - crowding in high sec - napfests - fleet-lag - just 4-5 major trade hubs - .. Originally by: Ravenal I have two suggestions on how to fix this without reverting to any old mechanics. - Add 1400 more low sec systems. Low sec is the frontier ... not null sec. Null sec is where players take the role of Concord. snip This addition wouldn't change much.. especially high sec is still crowded and the risk vs. reward in low sec won't change by this. Originally by: Ravenal Add Kuiper belt snip Do you have any idea how big space is? Please take an interceptor with a speedfit and MWD (4-5km/s) and fly with that one from Jita4-4 to the other station at the same moon. Now imagine your Kuiper belt working like that.. no way. PS: I would like to read your thoughts on the ideas in the thread in my signature. Similar problem, different solution.. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Dreya Renthold	Posted - 2011.02.23 04:52:00 - [16] Originally by: cytheras wrath personally, i think they need to make asteroid belts actually belts, and not random U-shaped clusters of rocks, people can warp to one of maybe 16+ set 'entry' points for these belts, then warp off grid many times to get deeper into belts, and exploration of these belts can yield profitable finds, like a null sec ore, in high sec that no one has found before, but the catch is its near by a pirate hot spots, so battleships and cruisers spawn there frequently. as for Oort clouds, i don't wanna spend a few min's in warp to reach a random place in the deep system. but i can agree with belts being just outside the solar rings. maybe add new locations to moon harvest etc with planetoids. ^ all of this.
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2011.02.23 15:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Tres Farmer Do you have any idea how big space is? Please take an interceptor with a speedfit and MWD (4-5km/s) and fly with that one from Jita4-4 to the other station at the same moon. Now imagine your Kuiper belt working like that.. no way. Not really, I know it's big and just looking at the AUs involved here and the speeds ships manage ... you'll start getting the sense of it yes. Now, a couple of things. The "edge" of these sites for a cruiser and a frigate are not the same. A frigate would be able to warp deeper into the belt and cloud, thus cutting the size of each "layer" significantly. BTW, I'm answering this post only for now (busy day and the explanation will cover most of the questions from other posters - thanks a lot for the replies, very good ones). I'm not seeing this as strictly an asteroid belt but a mixture of some debris and another ... toxic clouds, energy pulses, barren HUGE asteroids that you can fly into, pockets of emptiness that's slowly collapsing with some interesting stuff in the middle worthy of your analyzer or salvager ... please expand a bit over what is currently in the game. I'd not much like to see abc ores or something deep into the frigate layer = how much ore can you fit in your ship + you most likely won't have your friends + you'll not have a hauler for sure + you'll have to fly how long to warp out with your 10 units of arkonor + you most likely can't find that site again because of the randomness of entry and difficulty of navigation once in there (constantly changing stuff) anyway ... busy day starting now :) Originally by: Tres Farmer PS: I would like to read your thoughts on the ideas in the thread in my signature. Similar problem, different solution.. I'll check it out tomorrow :) .
Jokerface666 Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.23 15:53:00 - [18] Easy solution, Make all Systems 2x the current size. Make Stations 4 x the current size IT'll feel DAMN HUGE! w00t w00t wtfpwnage train
Aidanross Podiene	Posted - 2011.02.23 17:29:00 - [19] More systems both low and null sec, not more empire systems but more routes into them from empire.. like the oort cloud idea.. deffo bigger and more realistic belts for sure perhaps around the planets. mineable moonlet's?ie large huge asteriods that have to be built on to procure the minerals. Also build able stations within the belts would be awesome.. but all in all a +1 from me
Kilostream Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.23 18:19:00 - [20] Eve is still huge - you just lost your sense of Perspective

Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.23 20:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Ravenal low sec sucks because there isn't enough of it and it's content is useless. So adding more low sec isn't necessarily a bad thing.... Do you really think that making a turd bigger makes it less of a turd?. The most common reason people give when asked why they are not in low-sec is "What for?". They can do the exact same things in high/null with a fraction of the paranoia/danger .. fix null first, after that we can add the systems we want. Dynamic content like the clouds/belt you speak of could be an awesome addition, but they have to apply to all areas (high/low/null) or the explanation for why a cosmic phenomenon happens to obey human security will be ... not entirely believable.
Frank Shitlitz	Posted - 2011.02.23 20:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The most common reason people give when asked why they are not in low-sec is "What for?". They can do the exact same things in high/null with a fraction of the paranoia/danger .. fix null first, after that we can add the systems we want. If low-sec is full of danger, then it must be populated given that the danger comes from players and not OMGWTFBBQ rats. If it is populated enough to make the danger a "given", then there must be a non-insignificant number of people who do not think low-sec sucks. If low-sec is a ghost-town that sucks, people would not go there. If people do not go there, then danger is very low. If the danger was very low then people would not hesitate to go there for PvE. SOOOooooo... either the people who say it sucks dont know diddly. The people who say its too dangerous dont know diddly. Or all'yall are blowing smoke up the asses of the player base/CCP to suit your own hidden agendas. I agree that nullsec (particularly NPC 0.0)needs to be boosted though. Significantly. Thats just my agenda though
Manalapan Dynasty Banking General Tso's Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.23 20:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Ravenal low sec sucks because there isn't enough of it and it's content is useless. So adding more low sec isn't necessarily a bad thing.... Do you really think that making a turd bigger makes it less of a turd?. The most common reason people give when asked why they are not in low-sec is "What for?". They can do the exact same things in high/null with a fraction of the paranoia/danger .. fix null first, after that we can add the systems we want. Dynamic content like the clouds/belt you speak of could be an awesome addition, but they have to apply to all areas (high/low/null) or the explanation for why a cosmic phenomenon happens to obey human security will be ... not entirely believable. I find myself agreeing with Hirana too much these days. We do not need more low sec we need to fix null sec. Your goal of making EVE seem 'bigger' could help with that but needs to be carefully looked at first. The content is nice but like Hiranan says needs to be added across the board as well as done after they balance the different security zones. ------ Support Manalapan for CSM! Fixing EVE The Player That Makes EVE Stronger Manalapan Campaign
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2011.02.24 01:44:00 - [24] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Do you really think that making a turd bigger makes it less of a turd?. The most common reason people give when asked why they are not in low-sec is "What for?". They can do the exact same things in high/null with a fraction of the paranoia/danger .. fix null first, after that we can add the systems we want. Dynamic content like the clouds/belt you speak of could be an awesome addition, but they have to apply to all areas (high/low/null) or the explanation for why a cosmic phenomenon happens to obey human security will be ... not entirely believable. no, getting hardly any food is bad while enough of is good. Keep your fallacies to yourself please. my suggestion adds different stuff to low sec... better than fail FW. Null is fine ... boohoo blah blah. you mean like different ore belts in high/low/null? ... its easy to give reasons, like tied to stargates and whoever controls them, similar to the ore. Originally by: Manalapan I find myself agreeing with Hirana too much these days. We do not need more low sec we need to fix null sec. Your goal of making EVE seem 'bigger' could help with that but needs to be carefully looked at first. The content is nice but like Hiranan says needs to be added across the board as well as done after they balance the different security zones. cant be across the board, defeats the purpose. Ask questions like how controls the stargates in null sec and the fact that local is displayed there? Could you for example disconnect from the galnet? Essentially I'm saying that access to the belt and cloud would be a galnet access thing. Restricted in high sec (for faction purposes) and null sec (to prevent access by the npc pirate factions) .
Headerman Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.02.24 05:12:00 - [25] Personally speaking from an average 0.0 joe, i have seen huge. I have seen 900 TEST Maelstroms undock from an outpost in 30 seconds... it was like a liquid, it was absurdly funny and huge. Huge also is those 900 Maelstroms getting shot up by 10 titans and 50 SCs while attacking a POS with 2 CSAAs in it.
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2011.02.24 17:13:00 - [26] Originally by: Headerman Huge also is those 900 Maelstroms getting shot up by 10 titans and 50 SCs while attacking a POS with 2 CSAAs in it. Thats huge yes, but not "space" huge :) .
Jango Hett	Posted - 2011.02.24 17:42:00 - [27] They implemented gate delays for high-traffic systems, what about dock/undock delays? Lets say only one ship can dock/undock every 20 seconds (separate queues for each). You undock, see a wardeced corp camping and try to redock, but wait, you can't. You're in a queue, and it's now 4 minutes to dock! Oh noes. Pop. Stop parking your ass at Jita -- if you were at any other station, you'd likely have been able to dock, and live. The supergates have to go, and I could live without warp-to-zero and local (it's all spam anyway). These changes would make EvE feel HUGE. Or better, leave warp-to-zero, but add collision damage and have it aggro whatever you hit (just like smartbombing them). So you warp-to-zero to a gate, hit it, activate it's guns, pop. Now you stop warping to zero. But from another thread, I like the idea of adding 0.0 openspace intersperced with normal space, and making a civilian jump drive that has enough range to hop the 0.5 to 1.0 lightyears to the openspace sector, then make another jump to a different system (or maybe another openspace sector). These opensystems would be very sparse, with no sun or planets, but could be scanned for anomalies, and might contain rouge moons and the occasional NPC. There would be tens of thousands of these spots between pairs of neighboring systems, and would totally mix things up. They could be HUGE shortcuts, but since they're 0.0, they're also potentially very risky. To make it "cannon" have a new probe type that has a one-shot cyno generator that you "send" to the system within range. Using it's own MWD at say 6,000 AU/s, it zips over there, and makes the cyno. This cyno remains open for ten minutes, making it possible for others to find you.
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.02.24 21:47:00 - [28] 0.0 based around rouge planetoids is win.
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2011.02.25 01:44:00 - [29] Originally by: Tres Farmer PS: I would like to read your thoughts on the ideas in the thread in my signature. Similar problem, different solution.. Yes, removing stargates "might" make space feel bigger depending on implementation, it might just also make it smaller because you would jump, jump, jump without ever warping to get to and from systems right? Think about it, you don't really use sublight engines all that much. Any scenario where you need to run sublight for extended amounts of times makes you wish space was smaller... unless of course there is always something new to see. .
Amaroq Dricaldari Amarr Universal Deathdealing Militia Fusion Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.25 02:00:00 - [30] Hey, Ravenal, how do you get that thing in your Sig? And why do you even want to reveal your secrets to enemies? If they now what skills you're training, they;ll try to kill you even more and will only know how to better defeat you. -- As an Amarr Defector, I chose to become a Mercenary and Industrialist. I also have one goal in mind: Create a new age of peace and prosperity for all four empires.



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