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Chodie101
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:40:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Chodie101 on 25/02/2011 20:40:21
Originally by: Raimo
Let's drop the "elite" moniker now, ok? It's making the thread silly and it's not "elite" in the slightest to fly a Dramiel these days...
Why do you feel the need to drop the 'elite' moniker when we're talking specifically about a 100m frig compared to other, 300k frigs?
You might not like it, but surely it's reasonable to expect *something* special for that kind of outlay? why not bring other faction frigs into the arena currently occupied by the dram, rather than making the dram itself an out-and-out liability?
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:55:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Chodie101
Why do you feel the need to drop the 'elite' moniker when we're talking specifically about a 100m frig compared to other, 300k frigs?
How does price matter?
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Sepheir Sepheron
Between Ordeals
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:00:00 -
[33]
This or boost non-dramiel frigates XD
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:33:00 -
[34]
you could boost all other frigs but then you are looking at changing 20+ ships instead of one. Pretty much all other frigates are balanced with each other right now.
and yes dramiels die vs other frigates, but it requires the dram pilot to be **** or the other ship to be a complete bait fit that cant do anything but beat drams. Daredevils can sort of do it reliably, but they are very limited for all other forms of combat so it makes up for them being very strong for this particular scenario. they also cost a lot more than a dram to fit properly and die very easy to anything big.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Chodie101 ....
Because the other pirate frigates do not have the same OP status as the Dramiel due to inheriting all the ails of their ancestry, especially destructible dps and cap reliance. All the frigs/destroyers are actually pretty well balanced with numerous possible non-crippling counters available, except for that one eye-sore.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:37:00 -
[36]
Just make Dram BPC cost 150 mil problem solved
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:42:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Ephemeron Just make Dram BPC cost 150 mil problem solved
You are hopeless...
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:43:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Ephemeron Just make Dram BPC cost 150 mil problem solved
Nope. Many Drams roll 150-200 mil ship+fit already so it's not a deterrent, the players are not getting any poorer. ----------
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.02.25 22:06:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Chodie101 There's been far too much nerfing over recent years, and I really don't like it.
Lately things *seem* to have gotten better - for example, this time last year, Amarr was clearly the way to go for fleet PVP engagement - since then minmatar [gunnery] has been buffed and all of a sudden, with no nerfing required, there is a genuinely valuable, viable alternative.
Fantastic.
The blanket Minmatar boost was unnecessary and foolish, resulting only in the problem being shifted from lasers to hybrids. It was a classic example of power creep and exemplifies why a myopic fear of nerfing is fundamentally bad.
Nerfing is just as good as boosting.
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Dinzaiku Nagare
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Posted - 2011.02.25 22:48:00 -
[40]
Supportin'
Definitely agree that the dramiel needs a nerf. Podcat's ideas seem to be the most solid so far.
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Shoopa Whoopa
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Posted - 2011.02.25 22:52:00 -
[41]
Just nerf the Dramiel.
Keep Worm/Daredevil as is.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.25 23:17:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Ephemeron Just make Dram BPC cost 150 mil problem solved
Nope. Many Drams roll 150-200 mil ship+fit already so it's not a deterrent, the players are not getting any poorer.
They would be if the prices went up.
And if Dram pilots feel comfortable fitting expensive faction gear - isn't that a good incentive to kill them? Personally I'm always eager to try kill a Dramiel as it may drop faction AB/MWD, faction web, or faction disruptor/scrambler. It's the only frigate that's actually exciting to go after.
I have no problem with people using overpowered ship IF they pay enough money for it and IF I can destroy and loot them.
Would people still outfit their Dram with 200+ mil in loot if the Dram was no better than any other frig? probably not so much.
I know it's easy to fly a Dramiel. But on the other hand, it is hard to kill a Dramiel. The challenge of killing it is what makes it so fun.
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2011.02.26 03:18:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Ephemeron Just make Dram BPC cost 150 mil problem solved
Nope. Many Drams roll 150-200 mil ship+fit already so it's not a deterrent, the players are not getting any poorer.
They would be if the prices went up.
And if Dram pilots feel comfortable fitting expensive faction gear - isn't that a good incentive to kill them? Personally I'm always eager to try kill a Dramiel as it may drop faction AB/MWD, faction web, or faction disruptor/scrambler. It's the only frigate that's actually exciting to go after.
I have no problem with people using overpowered ship IF they pay enough money for it and IF I can destroy and loot them.
Would people still outfit their Dram with 200+ mil in loot if the Dram was no better than any other frig? probably not so much.
I know it's easy to fly a Dramiel. But on the other hand, it is hard to kill a Dramiel. The challenge of killing it is what makes it so fun.
Your argument is basically that there should be 1 elite ship that is easy to fly, but hard to kill.
Thats the dumbest **** I've heard in a while.
If anything the 4 pirate ships should all be "superior" in some way, but the dramiel basically says "fly a dramiel or fit to kill dramiels or die."
This is not a challenge. Its stupid and restrictive.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.26 05:26:00 -
[44]
Dramiels dont really have a better target selection than other high-end frigates. They do have this annoying ability to try and see if the other ship is flown by a rookie though and get away if they realize quick enough they got in over their heads, thats whats rubbing people the wrong way.
In the end, if you want fights and kills, you are better off with another frigate anyway due to its reputation of being hard to hold down (not entirely deserved reputation even) as frigate pvp is almost entirely consensual pvp.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.26 05:36:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 26/02/2011 05:37:40
Quote: Your argument is basically that there should be 1 elite ship that is easy to fly, but hard to kill.
Thats the dumbest **** I've heard in a while.
If anything the 4 pirate ships should all be "superior" in some way, but the dramiel basically says "fly a dramiel or fit to kill dramiels or die."
This is not a challenge. Its stupid and restrictive.
Just curious how you justify existence of supercarriers. There's a ship class that's extremely overpowered, absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. It can't even be solo killed.
Why is it ok for supercarriers to exist but not for Dramiel? probably the cost of supercarrier has something to do with it.
And yes, I really do enjoy fighting hard battles. It's not all about the blob gank in EVE. Not for everyone at least.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.26 06:59:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Raimo on 26/02/2011 07:03:20
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 26/02/2011 05:37:40
Quote: Your argument is basically that there should be 1 elite ship that is easy to fly, but hard to kill.
Thats the dumbest **** I've heard in a while.
If anything the 4 pirate ships should all be "superior" in some way, but the dramiel basically says "fly a dramiel or fit to kill dramiels or die."
This is not a challenge. Its stupid and restrictive.
Just curious how you justify existence of supercarriers. There's a ship class that's extremely overpowered, absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. It can't even be solo killed.
Why is it ok for supercarriers to exist but not for Dramiel? probably the cost of supercarrier has something to do with it.
And yes, I really do enjoy fighting hard battles. It's not all about the blob gank in EVE. Not for everyone at least.
Stop derailing the thread please.
This desire to tone down the Dram is especially from the soloers perspective and would help the soloers a lot, to get enjoyment and variety back in to the game. It wouldn't hurt the newer players either. FWIW it is also from the perspective of people who have hundreds of solo kills in a Dramiel, and have solo killed lots of Dramiels in a variety of ships including "lesser" frigates. ----------
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Jekyl Eraser
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Posted - 2011.02.26 07:33:00 -
[47]
Dramiel is fine, all other frigs need a speed boost.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.26 09:06:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 26/02/2011 09:13:09
Originally by: Raimo The thing is, frigates are balanced quite nicely right now, except for the Dram.
hahahaha no.
The entire T1 frigate range is overshadowed by the Rifter, Electronic Warfare frigs are junk, assault frigs are junk (minmatar excepted) and most of the faction frigs are hopeless. Rocket platforms still suck, hybrid platforms still suck, light missile platforms still suck.
The Dramiel is the stand-out balance issue because it so greatly outclasses every other hull, but nerfing the dramiel without examining the rest of the frigate range will re-expose old imbalances (although the crying from dramiel bandwagoners about their broken gankmobiles suddenly becoming vulnerable would almost be worth it).
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.26 09:28:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Podcat on 26/02/2011 09:31:28
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
The entire T1 frigate range is overshadowed by the Rifter, Electronic Warfare frigs are junk, assault frigs are junk (minmatar excepted) and most of the faction frigs are hopeless. Rocket platforms still suck, hybrid platforms still suck, light missile platforms still suck.
not true at all. for t1 frigs merlin, incursus, tristan are all ok. rifter might be more flexible but its essentially a situation where each of those will have a fair fight when flown right.
several of the assault frigs are as good as jaguars. ishkurs for example. rocket vengeance and hawk are pretty strong now etc. but the AF class is a bit broken as well due to no mwd sig reduction and the fact that just plain ab doesnt really cut it outside lowsec.
ewar frigs are junk, but Raimo and I were more referring to actual brawling pvp frigs in 1v1 situations. I wouldnt mind boosting e-war frigs quite a bit (mainly on EHP and lock range, but lets not derail).
rockets are pretty good now and a competitive weapon system, railguns are still fantastic in frig duels, but ok, light missiles are pretty limited, but its mainly due to scrams and the fact that crows dont do 10km/s anymore. you can still hunt ab frigs (or mwd frigs if you are really good) and kill them in your crow if you want. also some faction frigs might not be epically good (worm and cruor are the ones worst off). rest I dont mind at all.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.26 09:33:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Kepakh on 26/02/2011 09:36:07
Originally by: Podcat Pretty much all other frigates are balanced with each other right now.
Err..T1 frigs and Rifter are balanced? Slicer? Hookbill? Sentinel? Wolf, Jaguar?
Selectable damage type on projectiles screws up frigates the most as they do not have slots to plug resists holes.
I am not saying they are terribly imbalanced, for sure not but especially T1 frigates are out of whack.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.26 09:41:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Podcat
not true at all. for t1 frigs merlin, incursus, tristan are all ok.
Only Merlin has somewhat chance to stand against a Rifter. Incursus is a joke and Tristan does not have the DPS/EHP to compete.
Incursus needs to be swapped with Tristan as Gallente T1 frigate line inconsistent with the game design for T1 frigs.
Apart from obvious fitting ease and DPS/EHP of the Rifter, the issue imo is that Rifter is simply too fast when compared to other T1 frigates of the same tier.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.26 10:22:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Podcat
not true at all. for t1 frigs merlin, incursus, tristan are all ok.
Only Merlin has somewhat chance to stand against a Rifter. Incursus is a joke and Tristan does not have the DPS/EHP to compete.
Nope, Tristan wins DPS/ EHP but depending on the situation Rifter might have better range control. The fact is that both Tristan and Incursus can be scary boats in the right hands, and more fun than rifter especially because of the "Rifter myth". Of course, all of them die to a mediocre Dramiel, but all of them have a decent shot at killing a mediocre Ranis or even Comet, but you don't see that many Ranises or Comets any more because they die to Dramiels. See where I'm getting with this? |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.26 10:31:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Raimo ]
Nope, Tristan wins DPS/ EHP but depending on the situation Rifter might have better range control
DPS/EHP might be better on paper but in real, Rifter pilot would need to be stupid to lose...
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.26 10:41:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Raimo ]
Nope, Tristan wins DPS/ EHP but depending on the situation Rifter might have better range control
DPS/EHP might be better on paper but in real, Rifter pilot would need to be stupid to lose...
Rail tristan (might still win DPS/EHP and easily kills any kiter Rifter). Also stop derailing the thread. ----------
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.26 10:43:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Raimo
Rail tristan
/facepalm
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.26 10:58:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Podcat on 26/02/2011 11:01:28
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Raimo
Rail tristan
/facepalm
rail tristans are strong. feel free to fit up a standard rifter and fight me and I'll prove you wrong. otherwise stop trolling and derailing this thread from discussing my dramiel changes
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.02.26 12:17:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Raimo
Rail tristan
/facepalm
You'd suggest a blaster Tristan instead, with its mix of long-and short-range weapons?
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Jonathan Xavier
Discrete Solutions Ltd. Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2011.02.26 15:22:00 -
[58]
Signed.
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Sinikka Huiputti
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Posted - 2011.02.26 15:55:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote: You will get elite back if Dramiel gets nerfed as myriads of ship/fitting combos become viable again and people can more freely go about outsmarting each other...
This already works right now. You can kill a Dramiel using something other than a Dramiel. A quick review of killboards would show that to be true. There are even cases when a Dramiel gets killed by frigates of other type.
Elite PvP is all about overcoming challenges. If I get a 100 mediocre choices, where every choice is just as good as the other, then there's hardly any challenge. You just pick whatever and go with it, knowing whatever the enemy got isn't gonna be any better. In that situation, the number of people in fleet becomes more important than what each individual flies. The Blob hates anything elite, the blob wants uniformity.
When I successfully kill a Dramiel, I feel much better about my accomplishment than I do killing any other frig. I don't want to lose that feeling of accomplishment. The only thing that bothers me is that Dramiel doesn't cost enough. It should hurt more to lose.
Make new character, join fw and try killing dramiel with your 100k sp rifter in level 1 mission.
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2011.02.26 17:04:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 26/02/2011 05:37:40
Quote: Your argument is basically that there should be 1 elite ship that is easy to fly, but hard to kill.
Thats the dumbest **** I've heard in a while.
If anything the 4 pirate ships should all be "superior" in some way, but the dramiel basically says "fly a dramiel or fit to kill dramiels or die."
This is not a challenge. Its stupid and restrictive.
Just curious how you justify existence of supercarriers. There's a ship class that's extremely overpowered, absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. It can't even be solo killed.
Why is it ok for supercarriers to exist but not for Dramiel? probably the cost of supercarrier has something to do with it.
And yes, I really do enjoy fighting hard battles. It's not all about the blob gank in EVE. Not for everyone at least.
Assumptions are bad ******.
Who said supercarriers were fine?
You are terrible at this.
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