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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:41:00 -
[1]
Dramiels are completely imbalanced in multiple roles, and as a frigate pilot a few years now its sad to see them destroy the otherwise balanced frigate class (now after rocket changes. thx ccp). I'll quote my post from SHC where we discussed this. These are well thought out changes as from someone who both fly and fight dramiels:
needed changes: - 10-20% speed nerf, get it below 800m/s when webbed and using faction ab - grid nerf so fitting t2 extender, largest guns with only a micro core is impossible (150s are ok) - remove one drone (bandwidth) - remove falloff bonus. its too powerful to have both a tracking and falloff bonus and combined with its drones it means you can hardly beat it even if you could somehow kite it (see hookbills). make it fit arties if it wants to kite rail/rocket boats. - cut lock range to that of a taranis. they shouldnt be fleet tacklers
I was teaching my pvp class yesterday and kept thinking how well balanced most of the frigate bracket is now EXCEPT for dramiels which are so stupidly op i dont even know what ccp was thinking.
the other big problem with drams is the price in combination with how good they are. 70 mil means the only fights you will get with one is ***gotry (ab+shield boost faction fits) that wont engage anything threatening (eg pretty much nothing) and people will have backup to bail them out every time. There are no casual duels with drams. but because they absolutely have no disadvantage (good dps, best speed, good EHP, good agility, good range, good tracking) people feel forced to fly them and this has ruined frigate pvp and created Dramiels Online.
Some have suggested removing a midslot which I disagree with because it will make it too generic and close to useless for soloing
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Kesi Raae
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:48:00 -
[2]
I want my solo pvp environment back, most places are a ghost town except for Dramiels.
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TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Gypsy Band
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:50:00 -
[3]
Edited by: TimMc on 25/02/2011 14:49:54 What would the falloff bonus be replaced by?
Supporting anyway.
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:51:00 -
[4]
Long overdue.
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:53:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Podcat on 25/02/2011 14:55:53
Originally by: TimMc Edited by: TimMc on 25/02/2011 14:49:54 What would the falloff bonus be replaced by?
Supporting anyway.
does it need another bonus? I dont think so. if you wanted to do it you could nerf the speed then give it 5% speed per level of minmatar frig until it was the same (with the suggested 20% speed reduction). You could also give it an optimal bonus instead to boost its small niche role as a kiting artillery ship (optimal bonus wont change much for AC fit). Its just that falloff + tracking is too good combined and leaves no weakness to exploit.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Laechyd Eldgorn
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.02.25 15:33:00 -
[6]
because dramiel
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.02.25 15:47:00 -
[7]
I would rather have the speed of the rest of the frigates increased to be closer to that of the dram.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Alain Colcer
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.02.25 15:53:00 -
[8]
Supported, dramiels are the bane of Faction War complexes.
Minor sites were supposed to be run by destroyers and frigates, perfect for the "entry level" tasks in militia fleets, pirates and enemies camp this locations with dramiels and once they are in, you are never out.
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 15:58:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Bagehi I would rather have the speed of the rest of the frigates increased to be closer to that of the dram.
I'm not sure thats necessary, but I dont have strong opinions about it. however you would still need to change the other stats I suggested to balance things. speed is just one of the things unbalancing the dramiel.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Alvin Agrippa
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:08:00 -
[10]
Sounds good.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:25:00 -
[11]
Did you try to fit a plate and web on a dramiel...?
How about Slicer?
Make all frigs go inty speeds with AF DPS+EHP or none. Exceptions like Slicer and Dramiel and speed difference between AF and faction crap are silly.
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Marko box
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:30:00 -
[12]
I second the op's opinion
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:42:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kepakh Did you try to fit a plate and web on a dramiel...?
How about Slicer?
Make all frigs go inty speeds with AF DPS+EHP or none. Exceptions like Slicer and Dramiel and speed difference between AF and faction crap are silly.
not quite sure what you mean. I guess its just a troll or do you mean that you want all ships to be the same or are you saying that slicers are too fast (they are not they are slower than crusaders)?
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
z0de
The Bastards The Bastards.
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:58:00 -
[14]
yo á á
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Podcat
not quite sure what you mean.
Dramiel: dual prop + scram + web + plate. Did you try that? That directly refers to your suggested changes because I find your proposal too narrowed against certain specific fit, rather than ship as a whole.
Slicer is indeed slower than Sader but still way too fast for range, EHP and DPS it can project. Speed needs to come with DPS drawback. This was balanced pre-nano as you had to fill your lows with speed mods at the expense of damage. Because of stacking penalty and speed nerf, this no longer works so you have ships like Dramiel, Slicer or Cynabal that get this speed without any penalty - they are fast, have tank and deal good DPS.
If you want to have GTFO boats, sure but don't expect to kill much with them => balance.
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Smuggo Smuggins
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:05:00 -
[16]
YES!
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Youssef Daunch
Swedish Aerospace Inc The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:22:00 -
[17]
Uh-yeah.
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freshspree
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Podcat
not quite sure what you mean.
Dramiel: dual prop + scram + web + plate. Did you try that? That directly refers to your suggested changes because I find your proposal too narrowed against certain specific fit, rather than ship as a whole.
Slicer is indeed slower than Sader but still way too fast for range, EHP and DPS it can project. Speed needs to come with DPS drawback. This was balanced pre-nano as you had to fill your lows with speed mods at the expense of damage. Because of stacking penalty and speed nerf, this no longer works so you have ships like Dramiel, Slicer or Cynabal that get this speed without any penalty - they are fast, have tank and deal good DPS.
If you want to have GTFO boats, sure but don't expect to kill much with them => balance.
Fast ships dealing high dps still fit in. I think EHP is what is meant to be affected. High dps and pretty fast with low ehp makes sense. Reducing dps makes you stick around for much longer which isn't necessary.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:36:00 -
[19]
Originally by: freshspree
High dps and pretty fast with low ehp makes sense.
No they don't and never did. Also, neither Dramiel, Slicer or Cynabal have low EHP.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:59:00 -
[20]
So I take it Genos is finally tired of the Angel FoTM?
Not sure if all those changes are needed.
It is enough to gimp the fittings to a point where dualprop+tank becomes a practical impossibility (ie. DP or tank, but not both).
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:59:00 -
[21]
I'm against any more speed nerfs.
If anything, other ship classes need a speed boost. Speed should play important role in combat - it is one of the few factors that depends on player skill more than character skill. Having a speed advantage should be very important.
The only nerf I support for Dramiel is reduction of drone bay.
Dramiel should remain the most powerful faction frigate, but it should cost more. Double the cost of BPCs and the price will justify its effectiveness.
Don't make EVE more boring by cutting the elite out of small scale PvP.
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Chodie101
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:38:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Chodie101 on 25/02/2011 19:48:01
Originally by: Ephemeron I'm against any more speed nerfs.
If anything, other ship classes need a speed boost. Speed should play important role in combat - it is one of the few factors that depends on player skill more than character skill. Having a speed advantage should be very important.
The only nerf I support for Dramiel is reduction of drone bay.
Dramiel should remain the most powerful faction frigate, but it should cost more. Double the cost of BPCs and the price will justify its effectiveness.
Don't make EVE more boring by cutting the elite out of small scale PvP.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
Also not supporting because OP thread title is talking about balance for all frigates and then he singles one in particular out in his post.
I am a firm believer that if something is deemed to be out of balance, balance should be sought by buffing alternatives rather than nerfing the thing that's good.
There's been far too much nerfing over recent years, and I really don't like it.
Lately things *seem* to have gotten better - for example, this time last year, Amarr was clearly the way to go for fleet PVP engagement - since then minmatar [gunnery] has been buffed and all of a sudden, with no nerfing required, there is a genuinely valuable, viable alternative.
Fantastic.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:44:00 -
[23]
Supported. Signature removed. |
Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Don't make EVE more boring by cutting the elite out of small scale PvP.
You will get elite back if Dramiel gets nerfed as myriads of ship/fitting combos become viable again and people can more freely go about outsmarting each other...
And yes, I along many others in Genos did exploit the living crap out of dual prop Drams after the faction ship boost but that's what you get for being an early adopter tbh (And I personally proved their invincibility a myth maybe 60+ times )
But the fact remains that these days the frigate game is just dramiels online which makes it boring for us all. I support the OP wholeheartedly.
- I'd personally emphasize the changes to lock range, speed etc to get tackling ceptors their jobs back, as well as nerfing the falloff bonus to deny the AC Dram the ability to both get under guns *and* kite in scram range with the same fit and ammo. Also for general 1v1 balance the DPS/EHP ratio does indeed need some toning down. ----------
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:53:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Chodie101
Also not supporting because OP thread title is talking about balance for all frigates and then he singles one in particular out in his post.
I am a firm believer that if something is deemed to be out of balance, balance should be sought by buffing alternatives rather than nerfing the thing that's good.
The thing is, frigates are balanced quite nicely right now, except for the Dram. I don't necessarily disagree on an overall frigate boost/ balance "shake" but that's a thing that is a lot of work to do for CCP, OTOH putting the Dram in place would be quite trivial for them and it is really making the frigate game much worse for a good while now. ----------
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:07:00 -
[26]
Quote: You will get elite back if Dramiel gets nerfed as myriads of ship/fitting combos become viable again and people can more freely go about outsmarting each other...
This already works right now. You can kill a Dramiel using something other than a Dramiel. A quick review of killboards would show that to be true. There are even cases when a Dramiel gets killed by frigates of other type.
Elite PvP is all about overcoming challenges. If I get a 100 mediocre choices, where every choice is just as good as the other, then there's hardly any challenge. You just pick whatever and go with it, knowing whatever the enemy got isn't gonna be any better. In that situation, the number of people in fleet becomes more important than what each individual flies. The Blob hates anything elite, the blob wants uniformity.
When I successfully kill a Dramiel, I feel much better about my accomplishment than I do killing any other frig. I don't want to lose that feeling of accomplishment. The only thing that bothers me is that Dramiel doesn't cost enough. It should hurt more to lose.
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Chodie101
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:09:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Chodie101 on 25/02/2011 20:09:50
Originally by: Raimo
(And I personally proved their invincibility a myth maybe 60+ times )
But the fact remains that these days the frigate game is just dramiels online which makes it boring for us all. I support the OP wholeheartedly.
Well, I don't know what exactly you did to prove their invincibility a myth, unless you died a lot in them, which merely goes to reinforce Ephemeron's point that fast ships require good piloting skills rather than high SP.
As for the frigate game currently being Dramiels online - I do agree, but this can be balanced by buffing the others and thereby offering viable alternatives to a) flying a dramiel and b) killing a dramiel with something other than another dramiel - why make a good thing sh*tty, when you can make many sh*tty things good?
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:26:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ephemeron There are even cases when a Dramiel gets killed by frigates of other type.
Wut? Some other frigate can kill a Dramiel? That's outrageous... |
Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:27:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote: You will get elite back if Dramiel gets nerfed as myriads of ship/fitting combos become viable again and people can more freely go about outsmarting each other...
This already works right now. You can kill a Dramiel using something other than a Dramiel. A quick review of killboards would show that to be true. There are even cases when a Dramiel gets killed by frigates of other type.
Elite PvP is all about overcoming challenges. If I get a 100 mediocre choices, where every choice is just as good as the other, then there's hardly any challenge. You just pick whatever and go with it, knowing whatever the enemy got isn't gonna be any better. In that situation, the number of people in fleet becomes more important than what each individual flies. The Blob hates anything elite, the blob wants uniformity.
When I successfully kill a Dramiel, I feel much better about my accomplishment than I do killing any other frig. I don't want to lose that feeling of accomplishment. The only thing that bothers me is that Dramiel doesn't cost enough. It should hurt more to lose.
Let's drop the "elite" moniker now, ok? It's making the thread silly and it's not "elite" in the slightest to fly a Dramiel these days... ----------
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Raimo Let's drop the "elite" moniker now, ok? It's making the thread silly and it's not "elite" in the slightest to fly a Dramiel these days...
Dramiel and faction/pirate ships are something like Legendary Gear so in fact, yes it is elite PVP, in WoW though...sadly in EVE very soon(already) too.
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Chodie101
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:40:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Chodie101 on 25/02/2011 20:40:21
Originally by: Raimo
Let's drop the "elite" moniker now, ok? It's making the thread silly and it's not "elite" in the slightest to fly a Dramiel these days...
Why do you feel the need to drop the 'elite' moniker when we're talking specifically about a 100m frig compared to other, 300k frigs?
You might not like it, but surely it's reasonable to expect *something* special for that kind of outlay? why not bring other faction frigs into the arena currently occupied by the dram, rather than making the dram itself an out-and-out liability?
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:55:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Chodie101
Why do you feel the need to drop the 'elite' moniker when we're talking specifically about a 100m frig compared to other, 300k frigs?
How does price matter?
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Sepheir Sepheron
Between Ordeals
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:00:00 -
[33]
This or boost non-dramiel frigates XD
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:33:00 -
[34]
you could boost all other frigs but then you are looking at changing 20+ ships instead of one. Pretty much all other frigates are balanced with each other right now.
and yes dramiels die vs other frigates, but it requires the dram pilot to be **** or the other ship to be a complete bait fit that cant do anything but beat drams. Daredevils can sort of do it reliably, but they are very limited for all other forms of combat so it makes up for them being very strong for this particular scenario. they also cost a lot more than a dram to fit properly and die very easy to anything big.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Chodie101 ....
Because the other pirate frigates do not have the same OP status as the Dramiel due to inheriting all the ails of their ancestry, especially destructible dps and cap reliance. All the frigs/destroyers are actually pretty well balanced with numerous possible non-crippling counters available, except for that one eye-sore.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:37:00 -
[36]
Just make Dram BPC cost 150 mil problem solved
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:42:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Ephemeron Just make Dram BPC cost 150 mil problem solved
You are hopeless...
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:43:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Ephemeron Just make Dram BPC cost 150 mil problem solved
Nope. Many Drams roll 150-200 mil ship+fit already so it's not a deterrent, the players are not getting any poorer. ----------
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.02.25 22:06:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Chodie101 There's been far too much nerfing over recent years, and I really don't like it.
Lately things *seem* to have gotten better - for example, this time last year, Amarr was clearly the way to go for fleet PVP engagement - since then minmatar [gunnery] has been buffed and all of a sudden, with no nerfing required, there is a genuinely valuable, viable alternative.
Fantastic.
The blanket Minmatar boost was unnecessary and foolish, resulting only in the problem being shifted from lasers to hybrids. It was a classic example of power creep and exemplifies why a myopic fear of nerfing is fundamentally bad.
Nerfing is just as good as boosting.
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Dinzaiku Nagare
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Posted - 2011.02.25 22:48:00 -
[40]
Supportin'
Definitely agree that the dramiel needs a nerf. Podcat's ideas seem to be the most solid so far.
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Shoopa Whoopa
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Posted - 2011.02.25 22:52:00 -
[41]
Just nerf the Dramiel.
Keep Worm/Daredevil as is.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.25 23:17:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Ephemeron Just make Dram BPC cost 150 mil problem solved
Nope. Many Drams roll 150-200 mil ship+fit already so it's not a deterrent, the players are not getting any poorer.
They would be if the prices went up.
And if Dram pilots feel comfortable fitting expensive faction gear - isn't that a good incentive to kill them? Personally I'm always eager to try kill a Dramiel as it may drop faction AB/MWD, faction web, or faction disruptor/scrambler. It's the only frigate that's actually exciting to go after.
I have no problem with people using overpowered ship IF they pay enough money for it and IF I can destroy and loot them.
Would people still outfit their Dram with 200+ mil in loot if the Dram was no better than any other frig? probably not so much.
I know it's easy to fly a Dramiel. But on the other hand, it is hard to kill a Dramiel. The challenge of killing it is what makes it so fun.
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2011.02.26 03:18:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Ephemeron Just make Dram BPC cost 150 mil problem solved
Nope. Many Drams roll 150-200 mil ship+fit already so it's not a deterrent, the players are not getting any poorer.
They would be if the prices went up.
And if Dram pilots feel comfortable fitting expensive faction gear - isn't that a good incentive to kill them? Personally I'm always eager to try kill a Dramiel as it may drop faction AB/MWD, faction web, or faction disruptor/scrambler. It's the only frigate that's actually exciting to go after.
I have no problem with people using overpowered ship IF they pay enough money for it and IF I can destroy and loot them.
Would people still outfit their Dram with 200+ mil in loot if the Dram was no better than any other frig? probably not so much.
I know it's easy to fly a Dramiel. But on the other hand, it is hard to kill a Dramiel. The challenge of killing it is what makes it so fun.
Your argument is basically that there should be 1 elite ship that is easy to fly, but hard to kill.
Thats the dumbest **** I've heard in a while.
If anything the 4 pirate ships should all be "superior" in some way, but the dramiel basically says "fly a dramiel or fit to kill dramiels or die."
This is not a challenge. Its stupid and restrictive.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.26 05:26:00 -
[44]
Dramiels dont really have a better target selection than other high-end frigates. They do have this annoying ability to try and see if the other ship is flown by a rookie though and get away if they realize quick enough they got in over their heads, thats whats rubbing people the wrong way.
In the end, if you want fights and kills, you are better off with another frigate anyway due to its reputation of being hard to hold down (not entirely deserved reputation even) as frigate pvp is almost entirely consensual pvp.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.26 05:36:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 26/02/2011 05:37:40
Quote: Your argument is basically that there should be 1 elite ship that is easy to fly, but hard to kill.
Thats the dumbest **** I've heard in a while.
If anything the 4 pirate ships should all be "superior" in some way, but the dramiel basically says "fly a dramiel or fit to kill dramiels or die."
This is not a challenge. Its stupid and restrictive.
Just curious how you justify existence of supercarriers. There's a ship class that's extremely overpowered, absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. It can't even be solo killed.
Why is it ok for supercarriers to exist but not for Dramiel? probably the cost of supercarrier has something to do with it.
And yes, I really do enjoy fighting hard battles. It's not all about the blob gank in EVE. Not for everyone at least.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.26 06:59:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Raimo on 26/02/2011 07:03:20
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 26/02/2011 05:37:40
Quote: Your argument is basically that there should be 1 elite ship that is easy to fly, but hard to kill.
Thats the dumbest **** I've heard in a while.
If anything the 4 pirate ships should all be "superior" in some way, but the dramiel basically says "fly a dramiel or fit to kill dramiels or die."
This is not a challenge. Its stupid and restrictive.
Just curious how you justify existence of supercarriers. There's a ship class that's extremely overpowered, absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. It can't even be solo killed.
Why is it ok for supercarriers to exist but not for Dramiel? probably the cost of supercarrier has something to do with it.
And yes, I really do enjoy fighting hard battles. It's not all about the blob gank in EVE. Not for everyone at least.
Stop derailing the thread please.
This desire to tone down the Dram is especially from the soloers perspective and would help the soloers a lot, to get enjoyment and variety back in to the game. It wouldn't hurt the newer players either. FWIW it is also from the perspective of people who have hundreds of solo kills in a Dramiel, and have solo killed lots of Dramiels in a variety of ships including "lesser" frigates. ----------
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Jekyl Eraser
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Posted - 2011.02.26 07:33:00 -
[47]
Dramiel is fine, all other frigs need a speed boost.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.26 09:06:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 26/02/2011 09:13:09
Originally by: Raimo The thing is, frigates are balanced quite nicely right now, except for the Dram.
hahahaha no.
The entire T1 frigate range is overshadowed by the Rifter, Electronic Warfare frigs are junk, assault frigs are junk (minmatar excepted) and most of the faction frigs are hopeless. Rocket platforms still suck, hybrid platforms still suck, light missile platforms still suck.
The Dramiel is the stand-out balance issue because it so greatly outclasses every other hull, but nerfing the dramiel without examining the rest of the frigate range will re-expose old imbalances (although the crying from dramiel bandwagoners about their broken gankmobiles suddenly becoming vulnerable would almost be worth it).
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.26 09:28:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Podcat on 26/02/2011 09:31:28
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
The entire T1 frigate range is overshadowed by the Rifter, Electronic Warfare frigs are junk, assault frigs are junk (minmatar excepted) and most of the faction frigs are hopeless. Rocket platforms still suck, hybrid platforms still suck, light missile platforms still suck.
not true at all. for t1 frigs merlin, incursus, tristan are all ok. rifter might be more flexible but its essentially a situation where each of those will have a fair fight when flown right.
several of the assault frigs are as good as jaguars. ishkurs for example. rocket vengeance and hawk are pretty strong now etc. but the AF class is a bit broken as well due to no mwd sig reduction and the fact that just plain ab doesnt really cut it outside lowsec.
ewar frigs are junk, but Raimo and I were more referring to actual brawling pvp frigs in 1v1 situations. I wouldnt mind boosting e-war frigs quite a bit (mainly on EHP and lock range, but lets not derail).
rockets are pretty good now and a competitive weapon system, railguns are still fantastic in frig duels, but ok, light missiles are pretty limited, but its mainly due to scrams and the fact that crows dont do 10km/s anymore. you can still hunt ab frigs (or mwd frigs if you are really good) and kill them in your crow if you want. also some faction frigs might not be epically good (worm and cruor are the ones worst off). rest I dont mind at all.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.26 09:33:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Kepakh on 26/02/2011 09:36:07
Originally by: Podcat Pretty much all other frigates are balanced with each other right now.
Err..T1 frigs and Rifter are balanced? Slicer? Hookbill? Sentinel? Wolf, Jaguar?
Selectable damage type on projectiles screws up frigates the most as they do not have slots to plug resists holes.
I am not saying they are terribly imbalanced, for sure not but especially T1 frigates are out of whack.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.26 09:41:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Podcat
not true at all. for t1 frigs merlin, incursus, tristan are all ok.
Only Merlin has somewhat chance to stand against a Rifter. Incursus is a joke and Tristan does not have the DPS/EHP to compete.
Incursus needs to be swapped with Tristan as Gallente T1 frigate line inconsistent with the game design for T1 frigs.
Apart from obvious fitting ease and DPS/EHP of the Rifter, the issue imo is that Rifter is simply too fast when compared to other T1 frigates of the same tier.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.26 10:22:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Podcat
not true at all. for t1 frigs merlin, incursus, tristan are all ok.
Only Merlin has somewhat chance to stand against a Rifter. Incursus is a joke and Tristan does not have the DPS/EHP to compete.
Nope, Tristan wins DPS/ EHP but depending on the situation Rifter might have better range control. The fact is that both Tristan and Incursus can be scary boats in the right hands, and more fun than rifter especially because of the "Rifter myth". Of course, all of them die to a mediocre Dramiel, but all of them have a decent shot at killing a mediocre Ranis or even Comet, but you don't see that many Ranises or Comets any more because they die to Dramiels. See where I'm getting with this? |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.26 10:31:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Raimo ]
Nope, Tristan wins DPS/ EHP but depending on the situation Rifter might have better range control
DPS/EHP might be better on paper but in real, Rifter pilot would need to be stupid to lose...
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.26 10:41:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Raimo ]
Nope, Tristan wins DPS/ EHP but depending on the situation Rifter might have better range control
DPS/EHP might be better on paper but in real, Rifter pilot would need to be stupid to lose...
Rail tristan (might still win DPS/EHP and easily kills any kiter Rifter). Also stop derailing the thread. ----------
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.26 10:43:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Raimo
Rail tristan
/facepalm
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.26 10:58:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Podcat on 26/02/2011 11:01:28
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Raimo
Rail tristan
/facepalm
rail tristans are strong. feel free to fit up a standard rifter and fight me and I'll prove you wrong. otherwise stop trolling and derailing this thread from discussing my dramiel changes
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2011.02.26 12:17:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Raimo
Rail tristan
/facepalm
You'd suggest a blaster Tristan instead, with its mix of long-and short-range weapons?
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Jonathan Xavier
Discrete Solutions Ltd. Mean Coalition
|
Posted - 2011.02.26 15:22:00 -
[58]
Signed.
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Sinikka Huiputti
|
Posted - 2011.02.26 15:55:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote: You will get elite back if Dramiel gets nerfed as myriads of ship/fitting combos become viable again and people can more freely go about outsmarting each other...
This already works right now. You can kill a Dramiel using something other than a Dramiel. A quick review of killboards would show that to be true. There are even cases when a Dramiel gets killed by frigates of other type.
Elite PvP is all about overcoming challenges. If I get a 100 mediocre choices, where every choice is just as good as the other, then there's hardly any challenge. You just pick whatever and go with it, knowing whatever the enemy got isn't gonna be any better. In that situation, the number of people in fleet becomes more important than what each individual flies. The Blob hates anything elite, the blob wants uniformity.
When I successfully kill a Dramiel, I feel much better about my accomplishment than I do killing any other frig. I don't want to lose that feeling of accomplishment. The only thing that bothers me is that Dramiel doesn't cost enough. It should hurt more to lose.
Make new character, join fw and try killing dramiel with your 100k sp rifter in level 1 mission.
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De Guantanamo
|
Posted - 2011.02.26 17:04:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 26/02/2011 05:37:40
Quote: Your argument is basically that there should be 1 elite ship that is easy to fly, but hard to kill.
Thats the dumbest **** I've heard in a while.
If anything the 4 pirate ships should all be "superior" in some way, but the dramiel basically says "fly a dramiel or fit to kill dramiels or die."
This is not a challenge. Its stupid and restrictive.
Just curious how you justify existence of supercarriers. There's a ship class that's extremely overpowered, absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. It can't even be solo killed.
Why is it ok for supercarriers to exist but not for Dramiel? probably the cost of supercarrier has something to do with it.
And yes, I really do enjoy fighting hard battles. It's not all about the blob gank in EVE. Not for everyone at least.
Assumptions are bad ******.
Who said supercarriers were fine?
You are terrible at this.
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Blaad Booyashaka
4 Inches Of PAIN
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Posted - 2011.02.26 23:50:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Blaad Booyashaka on 26/02/2011 23:51:22 Edited by: Blaad Booyashaka on 26/02/2011 23:51:03 I would leave falloff bonus, but yeah nerf Dram plx.
(and give AFs 4th bonus ffs)
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III ZiggyBang
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 07:33:00 -
[62]
+1
Nerf it to the ground & take a look at Cynabal too, they are making plex fights a joke.
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The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 09:12:00 -
[63]
Sounds reasonable. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 10:04:00 -
[64]
Originally by: III ZiggyBang +1
Nerf it to the ground & take a look at Cynabal too, they are making plex fights a joke.
Comparatively, Cynabal is p much fine. Slightly better than Vaga in some areas, slightly worse in others, IMHO so little "better" that balancing by price does work there ATM. FW being permabroken is a different subject :D (they should have tweaked the plex entry rules with the faction ship boost, no?) ----------
Prom4csm
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Chinwe Rhei
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 10:15:00 -
[65]
Also put faction ships with their T2 equivalents in FW complexes instead of with T1.
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 14:45:00 -
[66]
The Dramiel ruined frigate pvp. ____________________________________________
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Tyrehl
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 15:04:00 -
[67]
I would be REALLY HAPPY to see CCP do something about the Dramiels. They really are an issue, nothing else. Go podcat pew-pew |
Tordin Varglund
Minmatar Vivicide
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 15:52:00 -
[68]
nERF DRAM BOOST BURST
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 16:09:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Tordin Varglund nERF DRAM BOOST BURST
You forgot to gief support ----------
Prom4csm
|
Batolemaeus
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 16:11:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Batolemaeus on 27/02/2011 16:11:42 Posting in an "Ephemeron makes himself look stupid"-thread.
Also:
:excellence:
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 16:16:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Tordin Varglund nERF DRAM BOOST BURST
speaking of which, the whole tier system for frigs and BC/BS etc should go and ships rebalanced and we would suddenly get 3 times the number of useful ships to play with instead of adding new ones. totally different issue tho and a lot of effort for CCP to pull off.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Dwergi
No.Mercy Merciless.
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 17:03:00 -
[72]
Completely agree.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 17:32:00 -
[73]
So basically OP wants to change Dramiel into a Firetail with fitting issues, where you pay 40mill for 2 drones.
For the sake of balance, not supporting.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.27 17:44:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor So basically OP wants to change Dramiel into a Firetail with fitting issues, where you pay 40mill for 2 drones.
For the sake of balance, not supporting.
Still loads faster, and "for the sake of balance"??? ----------
Prom4csm
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Marconus Orion
Global Criminal Countdown
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 17:53:00 -
[75]
Badger > Dramiel
Supported ofc. Would be nice if flying something other than a Dramiel was an option again.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.02.27 18:02:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Raimo
Still loads faster
No, the speed he describes in the OP is exactly what Firetail does under web with faction AB.
Originally by: Raimo
and "for the sake of balance"???
A pirate faction frigate should offer something over a navy faction frigate, dont you think?
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2011.02.27 18:11:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
A pirate faction frigate should offer something over a navy faction frigate, dont you think?
Like, say, >20% more DPS plus more speed and substantially better agility, you mean? Signature removed. |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 18:42:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 27/02/2011 18:44:55
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
A pirate faction frigate should offer something over a navy faction frigate, dont you think?
Like, say, >20% more DPS plus more speed and substantially better agility, you mean?
Obviously not speed if you read the OP.
On the damage output I'd be sold if it was fully turret based, and agility does tend to rapidly diminish in actual value once you reach a certain base treshold.
As lined out in the OP, it wouldnt be worth the pricetag given the alternative is less than half the price for 90% the performance.
Ed: I can see the scanres nerf argument tho, and probably dropping 5m¦ drone bandwidth, but thats pretty much it.
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Tordin Varglund
Minmatar Vivicide
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 19:01:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Tordin Varglund nERF DRAM BOOST BURST
You forgot to gief support
oh..
nERF DRAM BOOST BURST AND I GIF SUPPORT
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 19:07:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Tordin Varglund
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Tordin Varglund nERF DRAM BOOST BURST
You forgot to gief support
oh..
nERF DRAM BOOST BURST AND I GIF SUPPORT
No, tick box when poasting
And shut up Lilith and give support, we all know the changes won't go in as is - if you agree the Dram needs toning down please do it (with any and all disclaimers you'd like) ----------
Prom4csm
|
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2011.02.27 19:10:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 27/02/2011 18:44:55
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
A pirate faction frigate should offer something over a navy faction frigate, dont you think?
Like, say, >20% more DPS plus more speed and substantially better agility, you mean?
Obviously not speed if you read the OP.
On the damage output I'd be sold if it was fully turret based, and agility does tend to rapidly diminish in actual value once you reach a certain base treshold.
As lined out in the OP, it wouldnt be worth the pricetag given the alternative is less than half the price for 90% the performance.
Ed: I can see the scanres nerf argument tho, and probably dropping 5m¦ drone bandwidth, but thats pretty much it.
OP is kind of contradictory on speed. The suggested 20% speed nerf would still leave it as the fastest ship in the game, it just wouldn't be doing 1 km/s while webbed (EFT warrior time: current speed with a heated gistii B AB under a 60% web: 1073 m/s; with a 20% nerf, that falls to 858 m/s. A firetail with the same heated AB under the same web does 768 m/s).
There's plenty of room to cut its speed down to a more reasonable value without knocking it off its perch. Signature removed. |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 19:20:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Raimo
And shut up Lilith and give support, we all know the changes won't go in as is - if you agree the Dram needs toning down please do it (with any and all disclaimers you'd like)
Yes I know it will not go in like that, so why on earth would I support it? If you want support, line out something reasonable and I'll be glad to tick that box.
I'm definitely not supporting something like this and put a comment that nobody reads anyway on page 3. For what its worth, what I would support in the proposal is explained in my comment, that has to be enough.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.27 21:33:00 -
[83]
I don't get why so many people cannot grasp the idea of item/ship balance by cost/supply.
That idea is already fundamental part of this game, as we accept existence of t2 and t1 as something normal, even tho t2 is superior to t1 in every way. We accept the existence of meta 6+ modules that are clearly overpowered, only because the supply is limited and the cost is high.
Yet when it comes to adjusting game balance by manipulating supply/costs, people hit a brick wall in their head. It's all around you and yet you are unable to see it.
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Tyrehl
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 23:04:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Tyrehl on 27/02/2011 23:05:01 Dramiel pilot detected /o\
Just admit that you will be rly butthurt if someone touches your dram with dirty hands. A faction frigate should NOT be the best / overpowered in most of the roles it may fit into. It should be unique.
Overpowered < > Unique
See the difference?
Edit: Ephemeron, you dont need to fit your ship in a special way when fighting a t2 fitted / t2 ship? also who told you that its normal for a frigate to be able to fit dual prop, full tank, guns and everything just like that, enough cap for intensive MWD use? PG/CPU restrictions anyone? Lol .. try fitting a slicer and see the cpu wall that you will hit. There is no "best" ship in eve, and yet dram pilots think that they should screw frigate pvp because they are used to the way the ship is in the moment. And btw the dramiel costs like 40 mil or so more than an empire-faction frigate. For that little difference in price the performance boost looks a bit too much (compared to the T1-T2 difference that is like 3-5% most of the time). pew-pew |
Triksterism
Victory or Whatever.
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 23:34:00 -
[85]
I read over this post and I have to agree this would certainly help balance things out quite a bit.
Good job and I hope this goes somewhere! *
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.27 23:41:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Podcat on 27/02/2011 23:44:52 Edited by: Podcat on 27/02/2011 23:42:53
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
OP is kind of contradictory on speed. The suggested 20% speed nerf would still leave it as the fastest ship in the game, it just wouldn't be doing 1 km/s while webbed (EFT warrior time: current speed with a heated gistii B AB under a 60% web: 1073 m/s; with a 20% nerf, that falls to 858 m/s. A firetail with the same heated AB under the same web does 768 m/s).
There's plenty of room to cut its speed down to a more reasonable value without knocking it off its perch.
well, that sounds pretty much exactly like the values I wanted? the firetail is also worse on all other stats. and it sounds more like it gets close to the firetail when you compare webbed speeds. its still 6290 m/s vs 5400 using mwds which is a hefty difference (basic cy-1, zor implants and no speed mods on the ships). before nerfing speed that dram did 7860m/s.
by knocking the dram below 1k/s ab it means other ab+web only ships can control range on a dram without a web of its own like it is now. one of the reasons this change is needed. you shouldnt have to use dual webs and ab to range control another ships "standard" fit of the same class.
also the dram has drones and will have more dps as well so it will still be the best general frig pretty much, just not untouchable
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved - Vote prom4csm |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 00:36:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 28/02/2011 00:40:22
Originally by: Podcat
by knocking the dram below 1k/s ab it means other ab+web only ships can control range on a dram without a web of its own like it is now. one of the reasons this change is needed. you shouldnt have to use dual webs and ab to range control another ships "standard" fit of the same class.
You dont need dual webs to hold a webless Dramiel down in afterburner frigates. Rifter, Merlin, Tristan, Comet, Firetail and Hookbill are a few examples that can do it right now without any special fittings.
Given 2 of the other 4 ships in the pirate faction frigate class have at least equal or even superior range control, I dont really see what you are going at here.
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Sofaking Weetawded
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 02:14:00 -
[88]
It's funny that the pirate faction ship rebalancing and the rise of the dramiel came so soon on the heels of the nano-nerf. It's no coincidence. There always has to be an instant I-win option available for those players who see themselves as "leet" and are willing to pay to be so. The Dramiel keeps a lot of spoiled crybabies from packing in their Eve accounts and going elsewhere. You know, the guys who always train for whatever is the most overpowered thing in the game, and think that somehow makes them more uber in real life, when the truth is they just aren't good enough to win any other way. If the Dramiel gets nerfed, it's just a matter of time until CCP comes up with something else to replace it, unfortunately.
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Sofaking Weetawded
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 02:18:00 -
[89]
Nevertheless...supported. |
Tordin Varglund
Vivicide
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 02:19:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Tordin Varglund
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Tordin Varglund nERF DRAM BOOST BURST
You forgot to gief support
oh..
nERF DRAM BOOST BURST AND I GIF SUPPORT
No, tick box when poasting
nERF DRAM BOOST BURST AND BREACHER |
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 06:35:00 -
[91]
Good man! ----------
Prom4csm
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Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 07:00:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 28/02/2011 07:03:00 So evidently it's too difficult for PL to fit Hyenas, Rapiers, and Huginns into their fleet dynamics?
Or is this prompted by our reimbursement program and it's cutting into your K/D ratios?
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Inggroth
GOP KOHTOPA
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 11:02:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Inggroth on 28/02/2011 11:02:07 Strongly supported.
I'm not too sure about the speed nerf. Yeah it does makes sense that a faction frig should be slower than nanoed ceptor, but then you can get a Mach to outperform a Vaga in terms of speed/agility - :angelCartel:
Other than that perfectly reasonable changes to make frigsize less about "Dramiel" vs. "how do i trap-fit $OTHER_FRIG to pwn Dramiels"
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Yankunytjatjara
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 11:38:00 -
[94]
No brainer, really.
Also check the proposal in my sig - it caters to the same who like this idea imo.
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
AntonioBanderas
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 13:13:00 -
[95]
yes please __________________________________________________ I can say ASS!!! And ****!!!! \o/
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Flaming Lies
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 13:37:00 -
[96]
+1
dramiels are imba And give AF's a fourth bonus
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 19:02:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 28/02/2011 07:03:00 So evidently it's too difficult for PL to fit Hyenas, Rapiers, and Huginns into their fleet dynamics?
Or is this prompted by our reimbursement program and it's cutting into your K/D ratios?
Bad troll, wrong forum ----------
Prom4csm
|
Tyrehl
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 22:59:00 -
[98]
****, goons.
pew-pew |
Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.02.28 23:48:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 28/02/2011 07:03:00 So evidently it's too difficult for PL to fit Hyenas, Rapiers, and Huginns into their fleet dynamics?
Or is this prompted by our reimbursement program and it's cutting into your K/D ratios?
Bad troll, wrong forum
It's not a troll.
There is a counter to the speed of the Dramiel. It's called a stasis webifier, followed by warp scramblers. Perhaps you've heard of them.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2011.03.01 00:05:00 -
[100]
my experience shows that sniper Loki is very effective at killing Dramiels. It's achieved without webs or even warp scrambling. Simply 1-2 shot them as they try chase you. I got me 5 Dramiel kills in 1 week that way.
That's not to justify anything, I'm merely presenting a viable tactic for current situation.
|
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.03.01 12:02:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Ephemeron my experience shows that sniper Loki is very effective at killing Dramiels. It's achieved without webs or even warp scrambling. Simply 1-2 shot them as they try chase you. I got me 5 Dramiel kills in 1 week that way.
That's not to justify anything, I'm merely presenting a viable tactic for current situation.
Yeah, too bad the idea is to get some semblance of 1v1 balance back to the frigate class as well as give interceptors (and to some extent, AFs) their viability back... Fact is, lots of things kill Dramiels, you don't need to alpha them in a 500 mil T3 (That would 1-2 shot most other frigates as well, duh!), 50 mil is sufficient for the job TBH. But it doesn't change the fact that as it stands the Dramiel is dominating the frigate arena way too much and it's making the game *very* boring by now... ----------
Prom4csm
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Rye Contini
Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2011.03.01 14:00:00 -
[102]
pikacat speaks the truth, nerf without making it boring or useless ftw.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2011.03.01 14:06:00 -
[103]
It's not about counters or tactics. Everyone knows that counters and tactics exist. But it does not necessarily follow that frigates are balanced.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2011.03.01 19:09:00 -
[104]
I still believe that balance to the frigate scene can be returned by significantly restricting supply of Dramiels, resulting in significant cost increase for the superior ship.
That way when people lose Dramiels, they lose a lot of money, making it unsustainable for bad PvP pilots. The same form of balance we have with officer mods in PvP.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.03.01 20:09:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Ephemeron I still believe ..
Might have made sense 3 years ago before Eve got all those insane ISK making addition: PI, Moons, Incursions, Low-sec BS rats, Sanctums etc.
ISK was not a balancing factor back then and should certainly not be one now that anyone can put together half a billion in a week .. Look at the explosion in super-capitals and T3's flying around, we are richer than ever before.
Supply should be brought down to DD level at least, but not for balancing purposes but because it is the right thing to do .. ship will still be OP in the frigate realm no matter what it costs.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:39:00 -
[106]
I don't like the proliferation of supercaps. But I really like that many people use T3 for PvP. People invest 500+ mil and a few days training into PvP ships - that's a very good thing.
Use of expensive stuff in PvP makes it more exciting for everyone - for both sides, those who fly it, and those who eventually get to kill it. It is one of the things that allows EVE to maintain interest of long term player. Without it, PvP gets boring in a year or less.
CCP should do more to encourage people to PvP with expensive ships. They should also make sure that super-cheap alternatives (such as Drake and Hurricane) cannot dominate the battlefield. People should choose - either be powerful and fly something expensive, or be weak and cheap, and gain strength through numbers (blob tactics).
There should always be something "elite" for long term players to pursue, something rare and expensive. And it is wrong to assume that the end game is all in the mega alliance supercapitol stuff. The small gang people need goals too.
Dramiel can be raised above all frigs, not one of them any longer, but something special. And as such, it should be more rare and much more expensive.
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Mimiru Minahiro
|
Posted - 2011.03.01 22:51:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Mimiru Minahiro on 01/03/2011 22:58:07 As HY says ISK has never been a balancing factor. Think of all the people who used to dump a bil into thier vagas. Most were not crazy good pilots, many lost multiple ships/month due to sneaky tactics and being over confident. And yet they still kept fitting the same.
If something is out of balance, it is out of balance. Making it more expensive just means that only rich people get to have unbalanced ships. Making them cheap means everyone can have an unbalanced ship.
Unfortunately only nerfing the Dram doesnt really change things. Nerfing the Dram just moves the FOTM the next "best" ship. There has to be a wholistic approach if you want balance. Then again- balance is something few people really want. They just want "diffferent". If you nerf the Dram then the ship that takes its place will be the next thing people complain about in a year or two.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2011.03.01 23:06:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 01/03/2011 23:08:09
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro As HY says ISK has never been a balancing factor. Think of all the people who used to dump a bil into thier vagas. Most were not crazy good pilots, many lost multiple ships/month due to sneaky tactics and being over confident. And yet they still kept fitting the same.
If something is out of balance, it is out of balance. Making it more expensive just means that only rich people get to have unbalanced ships. Making them cheap means everyone can have an unbalanced ship.
Isk plays integral part in game balance of EVE. Just a few major changes to costs of various things can totally **** this game up.
As any game with economy, as with real life, there will be rich people and there will be "unbalanced" benefits that rich people buy. That's just the nature of economics.
The real question we should be asking is: does destroying rich guy's ship hurts him or not? Can a smarter, more prepared group of people destroy the rich guy's source of wealth? For most things, EVE allows you to destroy somebody, except when: *) they employ bot army *) they run level 4's in high sec *) they won the t2 BPO lottery years ago
Alliance moon goo stuff pretty close to being invulnerable too. EVE should have more ways to disrupt logistics involved in transferring the goods from 0.0 to empire markets.
If we are really interested in perfectly balanced PvP game, then we should erase economy completely. All ships and fittings should be available for free. All unbalanced things such as officer mods should be eliminated.
But as long as there is money involved, unbalanced things must exist.
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Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2011.03.01 23:38:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Ephemeron Isk plays integral part in game balance of EVE.
So if CCP introduced a ship that was totally invulnerable, but made the cost of that ship sufficiently high enough, it would be balanced?
Cool story bro.
As an aside- your diatribe sounds really really familiar. Did you used to post under a different name? Like 3-4 years ago?
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.01 23:51:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro
Originally by: Ephemeron Isk plays integral part in game balance of EVE.
So if CCP introduced a ship that was totally invulnerable, but made the cost of that ship sufficiently high enough, it would be balanced?
Cool story bro.
As an aside- your diatribe sounds really really familiar. Did you used to post under a different name? Like 3-4 years ago?
CCP already introduced such a ship - check out some of the Jove ships - like Enigma. They exist, yet nobody complains.
Why?
Because impossibly overpowered ship is impossible to get.
simple extension of the principle that crappy ship is easy to get. Strong ship is hard to get. The power to cost ratio should make a geometric curve.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.03.02 00:01:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro
As an aside- your diatribe sounds really really familiar.
It is called 'WoW mentality'...
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.02 00:16:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro
As an aside- your diatribe sounds really really familiar.
It is called 'WoW mentality'...
You can't destroy other people's assets in WoW, so it has no bearing on this discussion at all.
All my power / cost arguments are laid on fundamental principle that everything dies in EVE. If it cannot be destroyed, it shouldn't exist and I won't defend it.
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Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2011.03.02 00:20:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Mimiru Minahiro on 02/03/2011 00:23:17
Originally by: Ephemeron CCP already introduced such a ship - check out some of the Jove ships - like Enigma. They exist, yet nobody complains.
Why?
Because impossibly overpowered ship is impossible to get.
simple extension of the principle that crappy ship is easy to get. Strong ship is hard to get. The power to cost ratio should make a geometric curve.
I thought about laughing at your avoidance, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and reframe the question:
If CCP offered a ship to the playing public, sold through NPC station or something, that put out 100kk DPS, had billions of EHP, and could tank (active) any sub 500man fleet (meaning it was nearly impossible to kill but not totally) would that ship be "balanced" so long as CCP had a sufficiently high ISK price?
A simple yes or no will suffice :)
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.02 00:49:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 02/03/2011 00:53:34
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro I thought about laughing at your avoidance, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and reframe the question:
If CCP offered a ship to the playing public, sold through NPC station or something, that put out 100kk DPS, had billions of EHP, and could tank (active) any sub 500man fleet (meaning it was nearly impossible to kill but not totally) would that ship be "balanced" so long as CCP had a sufficiently high ISK price?
A simple yes or no will suffice :)
Simple answer - yes. If the costs were astronomical, something in order of 5 trillion isk - and that's ONLY if it was possible to blob kill it with 100~ people.
I made a little graph that illustrates my way of thinking better than words:
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.03.02 01:29:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Supply should be brought down to DD level at least, but not for balancing purposes but because it is the right thing to do .. ship will still be OP in the frigate realm no matter what it costs.
'Overpowered' is subjective here, and people are looking at the whole thing from the wrong angle. There are frigates (even cheaper ones) that have equal or better target selection, while having worse combat avoidance ability.
Combat avoidance ability doesnt mean much in frigate combat if you dont land in a heavy camp with a brick frigate or get caught in a bubble.
If we are honest for a second, the truth lies somewhere entirely different. The Dramiel may be the fastest frigate with still decent firepower.
Now compare that to the Machariel, a *battleship* that does outrun not only other battleships, but does outrun the fastest battlecruisers, and even most cruisers! Without using anything but t2 modules. While having a solid battleship grade tank, impressive damage output and flexibility in range. If any angel ship needs a good whack with the nerfbat, the Machariel needs it first no doubt.
So what is different, why is this absurdity of a battleship not seen as a problem? The answer is simple, the entry level barrier is much higher, the mere peons cant afford it.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.03.02 10:02:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
'Overpowered' is subjective here
Same damage as other AF or faction frigs = Checked Same HP as other AF or faction frigs = Checked 50% or more faster than other AF or faction ships, faster even than inties = Checked No drawback = Checked
There isn't anything subjective here. It is clear and simple.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.03.02 10:32:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Omara Otawan ...So what is different, why is this absurdity of a battleship not seen as a problem? The answer is simple, the entry level barrier is much higher, the mere peons cant afford it.
Players have never had more ISK than now, the only barrier in regards to ships like the Machariel is time (SP).
Reason why the Machariel is not a problem and why the Cynabal is often glossed over as well is "available counters within its class". Anything and everything sub-capital goes against the Mach .. that is a lot of options, Cynabal can have everything sub-BS/BC thrown at it which again is a ton of options. When you hit the frigate/destroyer level the amount of options dwindle to less than a handful if that, which is why the Dramiel represents the biggest problem.
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Sinikka Huiputti
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Posted - 2011.03.02 11:40:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Ephemeron Tech 3
Yeah. It takes some isk to buy hull and submods. Sadly you only need tech 2 fitting to make them more effective than tech 2. Which means you don't need so good fittings there. Imho it's more like +/- 0. A bit like marauders. Less modules to loot, more effectiveness. Isk is tied to hull which explodes. Funnily enough salvage does not seem that good either. Common evelogic. It's ok to spend isk on ship as long as no one gets loot.
I may be just bitter.
Originally by: Ephemeron drake+cane
These battlecruisers are hardly only alternative if you get creative. It is actually good thing there is useful cost effective ships for newbies to fly. imho.
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Tyrehl
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.02 11:49:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Tyrehl on 02/03/2011 11:50:08 Ephemeron, i cant get it. Are you defending the dramiel in its current state?
DRAMIELS DOMINATE FRIGATE PVP.
SOME PEOPLE ARENT DUMB (dont participate in blob warfare only) and they want to roam solo and get some goodfights / fun.
NO SHIP SHOULD DOMINATE ANY SHIP CLASS IN EVE.
Also nothing should be killable only by ships fit specifically for this situation, so no "hurf durf but this counters dramiels". This is not rigt. Bump and moar +support for this idea, please pew-pew |
Dimitar Hadji
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Posted - 2011.03.02 14:18:00 -
[120]
Drams should be nerfed. |
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Fluer Florentius
|
Posted - 2011.03.02 20:14:00 -
[121]
Signed ~ long overdue
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
|
Posted - 2011.03.02 20:20:00 -
[122]
Relvant image:
--- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
Naomi Knight
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Posted - 2011.03.03 09:29:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Naomi Knight on 03/03/2011 09:29:20 not supported it cost too much it needs a boost not a nerf +1 turret slot it is a matar ship for god's sake it should have more guns matar power
and add another bonus: flown more than 1 hour makes cancer in podder brain ,who drastically looses lp over time like 10k lp/hour , stupid matars never knew how to build a reactor shield anyway oh and 1% chance that when mwd being used reactor goes boom and blows up the ship with pod too
!!!!no it is not op it is just minmatar!!!
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Tyrehl
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.03 15:08:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 03/03/2011 09:29:20 not supported it cost too much it needs a boost not a nerf +1 turret slot it is a matar ship for god's sake it should have more guns matar power
and add another bonus: flown more than 1 hour makes cancer in podder brain ,who drastically looses lp over time like 10k lp/hour , stupid matars never knew how to build a reactor shield anyway oh and 1% chance that when mwd being used reactor goes boom and blows up the ship with pod too
!!!!no it is not op it is just minmatar!!!
Hmm, not sure if serious
pew-pew |
TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Gypsy Band
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Posted - 2011.03.03 15:51:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 28/02/2011 07:03:00 So evidently it's too difficult for PL to fit Hyenas, Rapiers, and Huginns into their fleet dynamics?
Or is this prompted by our reimbursement program and it's cutting into your K/D ratios?
lol check battleclinic you idiot.
Dramariel usage for Genos in February: Kills: 197 Losses: 21
They definitely use them.
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Morel Nova
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.03 17:32:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Morel Nova on 03/03/2011 17:33:47 hes just trolling badly. we used to use dramiels a lot solo too, but it got boring because they are OP. In fact looking at my statistics dramiel is the ship I have the second most kills in after taranis, and I'v flown all sorts of stuff since 2007. I can also fly all frigates at the same trained skill levels, so personally I have nothing to win in the boost/nerf game, I just like a more interesting and level playing field. Its a fact that dramiels ahve ruined the frigate bracket balance.
latest vid: Dishonor - combat evolved
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13Child
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2011.03.04 01:21:00 -
[127]
Yes Yes and well Yes
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Teshir
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Posted - 2011.03.04 06:33:00 -
[128]
Supported.
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Natalya Rhen
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Posted - 2011.03.04 10:49:00 -
[129]
++++
Yes, yes, yes. Fix dramiels, please.
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Terios Corvalis
Gallente HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.03.04 14:57:00 -
[130]
Sure, lets "balance" the 90M ISK Dramiel to the same level of other frigates like the 200k ISK Rifter. Let me think... NO!
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Oen''Gus
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Posted - 2011.03.04 18:29:00 -
[131]
Dramiels definetely need a fix. +1
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james1122
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Posted - 2011.03.04 19:31:00 -
[132]
Edited by: james1122 on 04/03/2011 19:31:51 Edited by: james1122 on 04/03/2011 19:31:19
Originally by: Terios Corvalis Sure, lets "balance" the 90M ISK Dramiel to the same level of other frigates like the 200k ISK Rifter. Let me think... NO!
Cost is not a valid argument as it is driven by supply and demand. Ship isn't as effective = less people use it = cost goes down.
People saying we need an elite ship make me lol. What makes a ship elite? The fact that is singularly better than every other ship in its class ? what your really saying is i need an "I win" ship.
It defo needs a slight tap from the nerf bat!
Originally by: Oen''Gus Dramiels definetely need a fix. +1
You didn't tick the support box :P
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.04 20:10:00 -
[133]
james1122, CCP control base costs of all items. Then if supply is abundant, the price of item remains near base cost.
In case of faction ships, the base cost is set in terms of loyalty point + other items required to purchase BPC from LP store. That's primary factor. Secondary factor is the BPC drops from loot, which are actually very rare.
All CCP would have to do to double the Dram prices would be to double the LP required for purchasing BPC, or just drop plain 100m isk requirement in addition to LP.
If you want a real world analogy, think of the interest rates that bank charges for loans. Theoretically, interest rates are set by supply and demand. But the government can easily manipulate the rates using FED - by setting the overnight loan rates. The government can raise and lower prices on a whim, in what seems to be a free market economy. CCP do same thing.
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Nauplius
1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2011.03.04 23:45:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Nauplius on 04/03/2011 23:45:08
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Frank Shitlitz
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Posted - 2011.03.05 02:54:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Ephemeron Secondary factor is the BPC drops from loot, which are actually very rare.
Tell that to the people who farm angel 2/10 static plex's. There is a reason why the Dram hull is so cheap by comparison to most of the other hulls.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.05 03:47:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Frank ****litz
Originally by: Ephemeron Secondary factor is the BPC drops from loot, which are actually very rare.
Tell that to the people who farm angel 2/10 static plex's. There is a reason why the Dram hull is so cheap by comparison to most of the other hulls.
I was not aware of that. Considering the power of Dramiel, it should drop only from 8+/10
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.03.05 04:04:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Frank ****litz
Originally by: Ephemeron Secondary factor is the BPC drops from loot, which are actually very rare.
Tell that to the people who farm angel 2/10 static plex's. There is a reason why the Dram hull is so cheap by comparison to most of the other hulls.
Pretty much. I did run a local 2/10 out of sheer boredom, and it dropped me a Dramiel BPC.
So I farmed it for about a week, and running this thing ~25 times got me 7 Dramiel BPCs and a truckload of various goodies like ABs, MWDs and small shield boosters.
The whole thing can be blitzed in less than 5 minutes in a frigate or destroyer.
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Tyrehl
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.05 07:01:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Tyrehl on 05/03/2011 07:01:49
Originally by: Terios Corvalis Sure, lets "balance" the 90M ISK Dramiel to the same level of other frigates like the 200k ISK Rifter. Let me think... NO!
You are ******ed, really. "Dont fix the ship im flying, i like easy kills". Another thing the dramiel brings is relative safety. There are just a few ships that can really screw your day, and with dualprop + insane agility/speed you have a good GTFO ability. In other words, you dont have to commit to a fight. See where im going? pew-pew |
Natalya Rhen
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Posted - 2011.03.07 22:48:00 -
[139]
Epic bamp, support this please
Also vote PROM4CSM because he's cool and flies solo just check his page v0v
http://www.promsrage.com/csm.html
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Grimster
Reikoku Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.03.08 10:09:00 -
[140]
Signed. _______________________________
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2011.03.09 18:16:00 -
[141]
Yess, supported.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.03.10 08:04:00 -
[142]
I wouldn't say it needs a nerf, a rebalance maybe. You still die pretty easily in them if you suck, like me.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:56:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Cearain on 10/03/2011 16:56:51
Originally by: Podcat you could boost all other frigs but then you are looking at changing 20+ ships instead of one. Pretty much all other frigates are balanced with each other right now.....
I can agree with the speed nerf. It's pretty crazy. But what if they just toned down the speed and buffed the other pirate frigates esp the succubus and worm.?
I think it should be t1 frig< ceptor= faction frig < asault frig = destroyer< pirate frig. It's not clear that the succubus and worm are where they should be. Daredevils seem ok. But balancing them with ships of a different class does not seem appropriate.
Dramiels are not just 70 mil. To properly fit them with the grid restrictions I see them more in the 90 mil range. If the problem is that they keep locking t1 frigates then maybe slightly nerf their lock time. That would also make it so they do not replace interceptors.
I'm not sure the dram you describe is much better than a lol firetail. HavenÆt really looked at it much though.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Mad Luna
CUVEE DES TROLLS
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Posted - 2011.03.10 18:25:00 -
[144]
Drams Online.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.10 18:45:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Mad Luna Drams Online.
Matar Online is much more accurate
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wolf419
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Posted - 2011.03.11 10:10:00 -
[146]
quite frankly the dramy is op i meen come on i can run lvl 3 missions in it and just kite the npc's while my t2 hobs do the killin boring but i also agree that there has been to much nerfing already un nerf the ships and mods especaly the drake come on who's stupid idiea was it to nerf a ship thats ment to be a tank all this whineing nerf this nerf that makes me sick it's no wauner councel games are more fun only reason i even have to play eve any more is for my friends so it is now nothing more then a paid chat site like yahoo or facebook mabe i'll run some missions or mine or even find some thing else to do in game but i wont enjoy the game i like i did when i first started so much has changed and not for the better captians corters whats that all these buggs and inballances and thats what they come up with i for one would rather see themfix some isiues with game play x960.jpg |
Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.11 10:48:00 -
[147]
Originally by: wolf419 quite frankly the dramy is op i meen come on i can run lvl 3 missions in it and just kite the npc's while my t2 hobs do the killin boring but i also agree that there has been to much nerfing already un nerf the ships and mods especaly the drake come on who's stupid idiea was it to nerf a ship thats ment to be a tank all this whineing nerf this nerf that makes me sick it's no wauner councel games are more fun only reason i even have to play eve any more is for my friends so it is now nothing more then a paid chat site like yahoo or facebook mabe i'll run some missions or mine or even find some thing else to do in game but i wont enjoy the game i like i did when i first started so much has changed and not for the better captians corters whats that all these buggs and inballances and thats what they come up with i for one would rather see themfix some isiues with game play
I don't really understand all the buffs don't nerf debate. By either boosting or nerfing something you are changing the metagame in some way and everything shifts either upwards or downwards based on the outcome. It's clear that the Frigate bracket is generally balanced as a whole, the only problem is the Dramiel. Why buff every single Frigate in the game to match the Dramiel, and then have to look at the ramifications of a power creep it has on other classes (are Cruisers obsolete now that Frigates are stronger? etc.) Other than saying "the Glass is half full" instead of half empty. Not only are they more likely to screw something up and change the game balance drastically, but it will take about 20x as long for designers to do properly.
---
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.11 10:57:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Terios Corvalis Sure, lets "balance" the 90M ISK Dramiel to the same level of other frigates like the 200k ISK Rifter. Let me think... NO!
The Daredevil and Cruor are more expensive than Dramiels and they have weaknesses that can be exploited by other classes of ship.
Daredevil - No Dual Prop due to 3 mids if you're using the 90% web (you should), More Commited in Scram/Web range in general. Limited range, Guns require cap, slower than speed fit interceptors making it more vulnerable to kiting outside web range.
Cruor - No Dual Prop due to 3 mids if you're using the 90% web, very slow (slower than some AFs), no neut range bonus making it vulnerable to being kited at 6km+, neuts not very effective against ships like Jaguar, Hawk, Hookbill, Worm etc.
I don't think Price should be the only balancing factor, and as pointed out, the Cruor and Daredevil are indeed more expensive than the Dramiel but also are generally balanced. ---
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.11 15:23:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Suitonia I don't really understand all the buffs don't nerf debate. By either boosting or nerfing something you are changing the metagame in some way and everything shifts either upwards or downwards based on the outcome. It's clear that the Frigate bracket is generally balanced as a whole, the only problem is the Dramiel. Why buff every single Frigate in the game to match the Dramiel, ...
Actually all ôthe frigate bracketö is not generally balanced. T1 <interceptor and faction < asault frigates < pirate frigates (except maybe the succubus and worm which are weak)
The problem is dramiels are oped compared to their sub-class of frigate - pirate frigates. If you give them a *slight* nerf and bump the other pirate frigates such as the worm and succubus you have some other variety for those who want to spend 100 million isk on a frigate. Like you said the daredevil seems about right. Make the other pirate ships about that powerful.
Trying to balance *all* the frigates so they are equal regardless of whether they cost 200k isk or 100 million isk is a bad idea.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.03.13 01:00:00 -
[150]
/signed. Dram is nice but it chases away all the other frigs except for slicers.
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Mickey Simon
TEMPLAR.
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Posted - 2011.03.13 10:11:00 -
[151]
Supported, would be nice to go out in my Taranis again and find something that wasn't a Dramiel.
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Frau Klaps
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.03.13 13:36:00 -
[152]
Dramiels are only good for noobs and cowards. ---
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Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.13 16:23:00 -
[153]
And yet, Dramiels still die by the truck load to skilled pilots.
Didn't malcanos just kill another dramiel with a badger this last week?
Anyway not supported, they are not that hard to kill. Step 1 get neuts, step 2 ???? step 3 dead dramiel.
Seriously just get your curse pilots onto the field to primary and solo the dramiels. Neuts will stop their MWD and AB fun, tracking disruptors will nullify their guns and you cant outrun a full wave of warrior IIs.
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Sphit Ker
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.03.13 21:32:00 -
[154]
I supportthis for as long long as the nerf to Dramiel does not denature it. Dramiels should remain Dramiels... just wash it down enough so itÆs got something to fear beside itÆs own pilot stoopidity.
The following statement is not my signature. The preceding statement is my signature. |
Mickey Simon
TEMPLAR.
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Posted - 2011.03.13 23:00:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Ai Mei And yet, Dramiels still die by the truck load to skilled pilots.
Didn't malcanos just kill another dramiel with a badger this last week?
Anyway not supported, they are not that hard to kill. Step 1 get neuts, step 2 ???? step 3 dead dramiel.
Seriously just get your curse pilots onto the field to primary and solo the dramiels. Neuts will stop their MWD and AB fun, tracking disruptors will nullify their guns and you cant outrun a full wave of warrior IIs.
You are literally ******ed.
The point is not that they are killable. It's not hard to kill a frigate with something bigger.
The point is that within their own class they are unbalanced, which is why every scrub who has trained minmatar frig I and gallente frig I flies them. The fact that a good pilot in a less impressive ship can kill a bad pilot in a Dramiel does not make them balanced.
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Reed Tiburon
Future Corps
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Posted - 2011.03.14 07:14:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Tyrehl Edited by: Tyrehl on 02/03/2011 11:50:08 Ephemeron, i cant get it. Are you defending the dramiel in its current state?
DRAMIELS DOMINATE FRIGATE PVP.
SOME PEOPLE ARENT DUMB (dont participate in blob warfare only) and they want to roam solo and get some goodfights / fun.
NO SHIP SHOULD DOMINATE ANY SHIP CLASS IN EVE.
This, quite simply. To which I would add:
BALANCING BY COST DOESN'T WORK. Especially when ISK inflation (faucets) and RMT are rampant.
Supporting OP.
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Rhondara
Universal Freelance
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Posted - 2011.03.14 11:03:00 -
[157]
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion RONA Directorate
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Posted - 2011.03.15 01:38:00 -
[158]
If they are so powerful why do I keep seeing kill mails on battleclinic where a rifter takes them on in 1v1 and wins?
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Phosphofuctokinase 1
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Posted - 2011.03.15 03:30:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk If they are so powerful why do I keep seeing kill mails on battleclinic where a rifter takes them on in 1v1 and wins?
There are also kills with vigils killing battleships. Those are not the norm.
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Soma Khan
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Posted - 2011.03.15 04:02:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Ephemeron I don't get why so many people cannot grasp the idea of item/ship balance by cost/supply.
because it worked so well with supercaps __
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KlintortheDestroyer
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Posted - 2011.03.15 04:26:00 -
[161]
personally i don't think the dram is super overpowered (could use less drones and less than 100% projectile bonus dmg) but obviously the real problem deals with the unbalance of weapons ACs vs lasers vs rails vs blasters (lasers only equal autocannons power at 15+ km, rail and blasters are supposed to be horrible..i have a caldari but i use missiles) i put two 150s on my punisher and i deal 60dmg every second while my lasers would maybe deal 20-30 every 3 seconds (using gamma/xray/multifreq)
so a rifter or dram loaded up with 3-4 ACs using t2 ammo could be quite dangerous while a newb amarrian trying out his lasers has no idea, gallente and his rails he already know are horrible, and the lone caldari who forgot the missiles might be in for a shock
on the other part, i think we need more frig types
right now we have scout mining -> no upgrade (maybe a better 4 laser miner with more cargohold) Surveyor fast attack -> interceptor combat -> assault fighter bomber -> stealth bomber astrometrics -> recon/mine layer ecm attack -> ewar special ops
2 new types would be support -> sniper/missile frigate (serve as a baby drake/baby sniper, big and fat but very slow) tracker -> hunter frigate (this is type of frig or cruisre that bounty hunters would use, like combat frig, but also shares some astrometric bonuses... sry the magnate reminds me of boba fett for some reason)
some poeple have asked that we could have a command frig as well with bonus ganglinks
some industrial frigs could be invented as well like Tugboat or Wrecker (repair frigate which is used to ganglink repair wounded ships/cruisers)
another type of cruiser/frigate that could be reclassified (already exists with gallente/amarr arbitrator) could be a drone frig/cruiser with drone bonuses...drones are pretty powerful like Acs as well
so there are many more frigs and ships to be made which could become of value if balanced properly but like i said i think ACs are overpowered, lasers/rails/etc are weak and all weapons need rebalancing
i was also thinking CCP could implement a new type of frig called Heavy Frig this could also be done for cruiser/Heavy Cruiser as well since there are some cruisers that are smaller than destroyers/similiar to frigates which could be reclassified as light cruisers or heavy frigs while bigger cruisers (like omen) could be made for heavy cruiser
Heavy Frigate and Heavy Cruiser ship command could be obtained by training your Frig or Light Frig to IV or V Heavy frigs would serve basically as mass attack boats (5-6 slots, double armor) similiar to drakes or hurricanes and Light Cruiser/Heavy Cruiser would be the diffrence between Scout/Recon and Baby Battleships/Baby Battlecruisers who could lend heavy cruiser support against larger fleets
so yes, dram needs nerfing, weapons need balance, and more ships are always in order in ship game where ship shoot ship and blow up ship for player to buy new ship
sry for the spam wall of text (i've been thinking of posting a thread of my own but i don't know where to start)
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Shiroi Okami
Mad Bombers Merciless.
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Posted - 2011.03.16 01:18:00 -
[162]
Restore variation to frig pvp pls
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Hydro Xide
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Posted - 2011.03.16 02:53:00 -
[163]
I agree. Dunno how to make that thumbs up, but if I did I would.
Mind you, it's not like dramiels can't be killed by my armor drake, but I've been told thats not for everyone.
http://aqi.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8872139
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Waterboard
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Posted - 2011.03.16 12:52:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 16/03/2011 12:52:41
Originally by: KlintortheDestroyer edited out the wall of text
I think you need to re-edit all that so it makes coherent sense.
On a frigate level all the weapons are fairly well balanced, each having there strengths and weaknesses.
I support the OP's proposal, although I have a dram and use it occasionally I would prefer a balanced frigate playing field.
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Awesome Possum
Original Sin. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
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Posted - 2011.03.16 18:30:00 -
[165]
The only reason I would disagree with this proposal is because I like seeing bad players lose Drams. There's something satisfying about someone buying a dramiel because they think it will make them a great pvper, only to lose it to something moronic (like a helios). ♥
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Ephemeron
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.03.16 23:11:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Soma Khan
Originally by: Ephemeron I don't get why so many people cannot grasp the idea of item/ship balance by cost/supply.
because it worked so well with supercaps
Supercaps are outside the realm of established ship design pattern. They wouldn't even fit on that little graph I made on performance/cost ratios.
Basically, any ship that cannot be solo'ed is outside normal balancing. Dramiel can be soloed, altho it's difficult in a frigate, but it can be solo'ed in cruisers fairly easy. Therefore normal cost balancing is valid.
Supercarrier cannot be soloed, even by another supercarrier, even by a Titan. Those ships, in my opinion, are plain bad.
But look at Machariel, it's one of the best battleships. Does Machariel completely dominate battleship scene? do people use Machariels for everything from fleet battles to solo roams? not really. Because it costs at least 900 mil A Mach is a normal ship that can be soloed - even by a cruiser, therefore the standard performance/cost model is valid.
Now imagine if Machariel was sold for 150 million (due to massive supply boost). Do you think that would change the battleship scene? With 150 mil Mach's, how often do you think you'd see them? They'd be everywhere, they'd completely dominate all PvP where big ships are needed. Even in fleet battles with insta popping, with 50 losses per fight, people would still bring Machariels and alliance leaders would replace them for free to fleet op members. Because costs play such huge role.
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Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2011.03.17 02:28:00 -
[167]
It's too fast and shouldn't have a drone bay at all.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Waterboard
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Posted - 2011.03.17 08:43:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Dorian Tormak It's too fast and shouldn't have a drone bay at all.
If you take away its drone bay and speed it becomes a firetail
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Aegis Stormborn
UNKN0WN ENTITY
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Posted - 2011.03.17 21:39:00 -
[169]
Dramiel is the ONLY frig I have in station right now, and it's been that way for a while.
SUPPORTED
GJ Podcat on an excellent breakdown of why.
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Nano J
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Posted - 2011.03.18 02:17:00 -
[170]
Used to solo with my crow all the time... now i just die to drams.
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KlintortheDestroyer
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Posted - 2011.03.18 04:36:00 -
[171]
i basically said Autocannons are overpowered
and i gave a few examples of new frigate types that could supplement the boring frigate selection (punisher/purifier, rifter/hound, whatever the caldari/gallente use before they change to drakes and dominixs???)- drone frigate, command frigate, sniper/missile frigate, bounty hunter tracker/hunting frigate
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50freefly
Caldari Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.03.20 08:26:00 -
[172]
Absolutely supported. Flying a dramiel feels like cheating, and dying to dramiels makes you feel like the other guy is cheating.
The first concern you have when you fit a frigate out these days is, "how can I specialize this fit to kill a dramiel?" firstly because there are so goddamn many of them out there and secondly because you HAVE to specialize to kill them. This shouldn't be the case.
Hit it with the nerfbat.
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Rhea Aies
0ne Percent.
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Posted - 2011.03.21 06:58:00 -
[173]
Throwing my full support behind this one.
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Bussunda
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2011.03.22 03:01:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Podcat Dramiels are completely imbalanced in multiple roles
quoting because I am, in fact, down
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Lady Shaniqua
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.22 14:22:00 -
[175]
Supported
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JC Savage
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Posted - 2011.03.22 16:49:00 -
[176]
supported
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Losvar
Hello Kitty Crew
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Posted - 2011.03.24 08:10:00 -
[177]
Supporting his wholeheartedly, no ship should be so good that you cannot lose it to a ship not fit for that exact purpose. ******s failfitting it and losing to rifters don't make it balanced, a failfit mega piloted by a complete ****** will also lose to a rifter...
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ButterNut
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Posted - 2011.03.30 04:40:00 -
[178]
Supported
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Technomage Trilogy Valor Empire
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Posted - 2011.03.30 04:48:00 -
[179]
-More Pewpew, Less QQ- |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.30 10:46:00 -
[180]
Would definitely like to see grid and drone nerf, but rather drop the tracking bonus than the falloff, since that is after all the Angel flavour. I quite like the idea to move the falloff bonus to Gallente Frigate and put speed as the Minmatar bonus, though.
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Alexandra Stormwing
Cry Wolf.
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Posted - 2011.03.30 14:57:00 -
[181]
Dramiels need to be fixed.
Personally, I'm okay with the speed the way it is. If the idea behind the ship was to create something exceptionally fast and agile that is able to disengage at will, well, that's fine. It's very Minmatar in flavor.
The problem is that it can have this amazing mobility AND do a lot of damage AND have nice EHP AND have fantastic tracking AND have fantastic projection. Then drones on top of it all. It's just too much of a good thing.
I personally refuse to fly them because of this, but this does limit what I can reasonably engage because Dramiels are so popular. Go Dramiel or go home - it shouldn't be this way.
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El Liptonez
Trauma Ward 0ccupational Hazzard
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Posted - 2011.03.31 18:44:00 -
[182]
+1 for nerfbat.
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Jerika Bodet
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Posted - 2011.03.31 20:07:00 -
[183]
FFS people, a Dram is Elite faction. It's cost is 10x or more of T1's and 3-4x's more than AFs, I would definitely expect for it to be better. Risk vs reward! That's what Eve is! Cause if I fly one and F'up then I pay a high price for it!
There have been a number of threads on this debate already. It comes down to people whining cause they are ill prepared and don't want to have to adjust tactics. Well hell, adjust or die. They have a Dram, come out in a Daredevil or even a sentinel could work. So why not use what's commonly know as Tactics and planning and quit whinning. Heh, not to mention the ship is available to Everyone! Whether you choose to invest in the Dram elite/risk is up to you! But stop being babies because others choose to use the ship.
Btw, Drams have been killed by a well fitted Badger Mk II, so the idea of it's impossibly difficult to kill and it can GTFO whenever it decides is total crap. Use your brains for once and make that Dram pilot cry over his loss.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
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Posted - 2011.04.01 02:34:00 -
[184]
Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim on 01/04/2011 02:34:32 What Alexandra Stormwing said. The dramiel is the fastest ship out there, no need for a nerf to that because it's not overpowered in its speed alone. But it's far too powerful to be that fast. I think its power should be nerfed.
The dramiel is like they took an interceptor and an assault ship and slapped em together with the best of both worlds, and you get a dramiel. But that wasn't enough so they had to let it field 3 drones. Sure it has trouble hitting stuff when it's vroming around at the speed of sound. Everyone else has trouble hitting it. I don't see what's wrong with that.
Also I think the Rifter is in need of a nerf. They're popular but I don't see them used perhaps as much as one might expect. However, I've used lots of frigates in various situations and the rifter is the one I keep coming back to. It's just got the best of so many things. It's pretty fast and with 3 low slots, you can fit it to go almost as fast as a slasher or other fast-type t1 frigate. But it still has a fair amount of powergrid, and can fit a medium shield extender with autocannons and an afterburner. I find that with this setup, and with nanofiber internal structures in the lows (and maybe a weapons upgrade or two), it's hard for other frigates or evens mall drones to hit me, even though they can't do much damage to my rifter with that gigantic shield extender on it. I can even sort of outrun heavy assault missiles while orbiting within range of my autocannons and firing at my target. This also happens to be within the range needed to warp scramble them. I've never tried fitting artillery and using a microwarpdrive (flying in a wide orbit to allow my rifter to track with them), but I know it can be cap stable doing that. I'll bet that is also an effective strategy, and would be particularly good at dodging missiles, stasis webifiers, and drones. -- "[Reaver Glitterstim] I will make your war look like a schoolyard scuffle, FATHER."
-Lyra Belacquae telling what my avatar is probably thinking |
fr0gout
THE PIRATE HUNTERS DEM0N HUNTERS
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Posted - 2011.04.01 11:43:00 -
[185]
Edited by: fr0gout on 01/04/2011 11:43:34
Originally by: Jerika Bodet FFS people, a Dram is Elite faction. It's cost is 10x or more of T1's and 3-4x's more than AFs, I would definitely expect for it to be better. Risk vs reward! That's what Eve is! Cause if I fly one and F'up then I pay a high price for it!
There have been a number of threads on this debate already. It comes down to people whining cause they are ill prepared and don't want to have to adjust tactics. Well hell, adjust or die. They have a Dram, come out in a Daredevil or even a sentinel could work. So why not use what's commonly know as Tactics and planning and quit whinning. Heh, not to mention the ship is available to Everyone! Whether you choose to invest in the Dram elite/risk is up to you! But stop being babies because others choose to use the ship.
Btw, Drams have been killed by a well fitted Badger Mk II, so the idea of it's impossibly difficult to kill and it can GTFO whenever it decides is total crap. Use your brains for once and make that Dram pilot cry over his loss.
The Daredevil and Cruor both cost more and have strengths and weaknesses which can be exploited. Price shouldn't be the only balancing factor.
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Sephiroth CloneVII
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Posted - 2011.04.01 20:17:00 -
[186]
do people realize a dramial is a faction pirate ship that is woth 100's of millions of isk?
If other frigs cost the same it would make sense they get the same stats.
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Sexy Mirkin
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Posted - 2011.04.01 21:41:00 -
[187]
why do people always want balance, what's the point of having 50 ships to fly if they're all the same. There is always a best ship. Drake being best bc for example. This game has never had balance and never should attempt to. eve is more like paper rock scissors, everything has it's counter.
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Sexy Mirkin
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Posted - 2011.04.01 21:50:00 -
[188]
Here's an idea, nerf skilled pilots too. If you get too many kills ccp should start lagging you out to balance you with others, then everything would be balanced and everyone would be just as **** as every one else.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.02 09:52:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Sexy Mirkin why do people always want balance, what's the point of having 50 ships to fly if they're all the same. There is always a best ship. Drake being best bc for example. This game has never had balance and never should attempt to. eve is more like paper rock scissors, everything has it's counter.
You don't know what the word 'balance' means.
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Xydros
Veto.
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Posted - 2011.04.02 10:20:00 -
[190]
I too have access to all of the frigs in the game with near max skills.
Dramiels are killing frig PVP, please give them an exploitable weakness like the other faction frigs have.
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GheyNeil
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Posted - 2011.04.02 19:43:00 -
[191]
overdue, dramiel nerf is overdue
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PreZiDenT1
The Nintendo Generation Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2011.04.04 09:21:00 -
[192]
Edited by: PreZiDenT1 on 04/04/2011 09:23:14 I agree that dramiel should get a small nerf. In that case the anti-dramiel, daredevil, should probably get one too.
I see some people play the risk vs reward card here, but i dont think they realise the market mechanics behind nerfs/buffs. If the dramiel gets the nerf the risk will be smaller = lower price.
In other words: risk vs reward is fixed + frigate class is balanced.
Edit: I havent read all posts in case someone has already pointed this out.
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Miso Hawnee
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Posted - 2011.04.04 17:09:00 -
[193]
Confirming Dramiel pilots are the biggest ***gots in eve.
Eve has not known such ***gotry since before the falcon nerf.
I love how fast they are, its cool to be able to break 10 km/s but the ship has too many other strengths. imo, dps nerf in the form of less drones.
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Firey Jack
Wolfsbrigade
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:21:00 -
[194]
Supported completely.
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Kingwood
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.04.06 20:21:00 -
[195]
Supported.
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Davader
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Posted - 2011.04.07 12:35:00 -
[196]
Support
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CaldeteisX
Aurora Polaris The Babylon Consortium
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Posted - 2011.04.07 15:20:00 -
[197]
supported.
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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
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Posted - 2011.04.07 15:32:00 -
[198]
Quote: do people realize a dramial is a faction pirate ship that is woth 100's of millions of isk?
If other frigs cost the same it would make sense they get the same stats.
You don't understand how pricing works. Hint: It is no more difficult to produce a Dramiel than it is to produce a Worm.
Supported. What's funny is the opponents of nerfing dramiels are using the same non-arguments that precede every obvious, needed nerf...generic stuff that could be applied to literally everything.
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Sephiroth CloneVII
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Posted - 2011.04.07 15:58:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Sephiroth CloneVII on 07/04/2011 16:00:18 While dramiels should defiantly be better then tech 1 ships (and faction), it should probably brought in line closer to other faction frigs.
As it is dramiels stand as overpowered compared to the others, or the only one that doesn't suck major dongs, considered how much it is used.
Looking at the stats the big difference between drams and other faction frigs is the base speed (470 to 300), make them all closer to interceptor speeds of the respective race then that would do allot (mabey 50 km slower, so that the frigs that are specialized just for speed have some edge in that category), being the preferred role of a elite frig (is something small not going to speed tank and be fast? Add to that gurista need a equal boast to the damage of missiles to that of other frigs, instead of being gimped with half the slots and no base boasts to firepower.
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Maksim Cammeren
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Posted - 2011.04.29 01:16:00 -
[200]
Edited by: Maksim Cammeren on 29/04/2011 01:21:26 Edited by: Maksim Cammeren on 29/04/2011 01:16:18 Bump.
I approve of this idea. While not nearly as experienced as other pilots in this thread, I have been engaging Dramiels recently with fits specifically designed to beat them. Even then, the only hope is that the other pilot doesn't know how to properly fly the ship. A good pilot just disengages if he starts to lose.
Falloff bonus + a tracking bonus + superior speed is the main issue in my opinion (echoing some of the other comments in this thread). Nerf at least some of these and Dramiels would have a weakness that can be exploited.
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Tyrehl
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.25 15:43:00 -
[201]
Bump, because i just spent 30 minutes arguing with people in FW. pew-pew |
Svyatagor
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Posted - 2011.05.25 15:47:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Tyrehl Bump, because i just spent 30 minutes arguing with people in FW.
We both just did.
Was this pic posted b4?
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sten mattson
1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2011.05.25 16:11:00 -
[203]
supported , cuz i just listened to your argueing :p ____________________________ you wanna piece of me , boy? |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:28:00 -
[204]
. _____ EVE Fit |
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