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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:20:00 -
[1]
CCP Optimal's latest dev blog is all about the new keyboard shortcut system. Read more about these updates and changes here.
Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact Us |
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ITTigerClawIK
Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:25:00 -
[2]
first and good stuff
also IB Chribba
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected]) |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:34:00 -
[3]
I absolutely dislike shortcuts without clicking, that's a personal preference though.
What I am not sure about is that they should be set by default as it can very easily make your ship do things you really don't want... |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:43:00 -
[4]
CLICK!
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:44:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Chribba CLICK!
*clicks* *clicks* *clicks* Nothing
Very clear dev blog btw!
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Podcat
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:48:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Podcat on 25/02/2011 16:48:12 speaking of shortcuts, is there some way to stop me pressing my push-to-talk for team speak and suddenly none of the shortcuts in eve work (f1 etc) so I cant talk and fire at the same time. otherwise I liek the new shortcut stuff
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Logan LaMort
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:57:00 -
[7]
Any plans to allow shortcuts to mouse only commands, such as moving the camera and being able to assign 'double click in space to move in that direction' to different keys?
More customisability of controls is always a huge plus
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Kellath Eladrel
Minmatar Future Corps
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:58:00 -
[8]
Also remember there is a new keyboard shortcut for setting focus to the overview window. And then another one for putting the focus back in a chat window. That can be helpful if you really want to forego the mouse. _____ Five card stud, nothing wild. And the sky's the limit... |
Darina Smirayne
Sarz'na Khumatari
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:01:00 -
[9]
I lurve the additional shortcuts.
I hate the fact that I lost all of my keyboard remaps in the patch, and every shortcut has to be reset for every character that logs on (perhaps I should not use 9 characters?) And I can't find a save option so that I can just import my remaps to other characters and onto SISI.
Can we have a shortcut to target the most dangerous foe, broadcast that target, set the ship in motion (orbit or suicide) and then pour on DPS and ewar? You claimed to be lazy, but I don't think you are lazy enough! -- There are times when I wish that I actually had a creative bone in my body! |
Daesis Wrack
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:19:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kellath Eladrel Also remember there is a new keyboard shortcut for setting focus to the overview window. And then another one for putting the focus back in a chat window. That can be helpful if you really want to forego the mouse.
But what we're missing is a shortcut to get the focus OUT of a chat window, or just "clear focus" in general. Please?
While I'm begging for shortcuts we'll never get, how bout a "perform directional scan" shortcut?
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:45:00 -
[11]
Edited by: mkmin on 25/02/2011 17:47:19 I can't think of any particular way the new shortcuts improve quality of life, mostly because I still get accidental shortcut executions, and have thus cleared out most of the things that might make themselves useful.
There are a few ways beyond that as to how they hurt QoL. When alt-tabbing, shortcuts seem to get applied when they shouldn't. Most disruptive example is alt remaining held on the client being left behind and 'look at selected' happening while you're on the other client. Workaround is removing that shortcut and thus removing the old functionality. Other example is alt-tab -> ctrl-d (recall drones) -> alt-tab back, scanner window (alt-d) is now open.
Another bad one is when focus on chat (space bar) is pressed it performs badly, increasing client-side lag (it seems to want to scroll to the top of the chat history before giving focus to the text entry field.) This is particularly bad when the client is being particularly laggy (which seems to be way way worse now) and it doesn't register your intended "ctrl-space", thinks you just meant "space" and starts lagging out even worse.
It seems to me "ctrl-click" -> "w-click" is slightly less effective than "ctrl-click" -> "approach using selected item window" though (3 buttons pressed total instead of 4) especially since I can't think of any other software in the universe the uses commands like w-click. I cleared out all the shortcuts like that because I can easily imagine accidental command executions even with the added layer of prevention. I can't think of a good solution to make this intuitive and not suicidal.
A big quality of life thing for me is when using multiple different shortcuts in a row (or maybe just different shortcut types?), the client doesn't seem to recognize the main shortcut. Specifically "ctrl-d"(recall drones) -> continuing to hold ctrl and click ing (lock target) fails to lock targets, while holding ctrl and clicking multiple targets is successful when no other commands have been issued beforehand.
It is pretty upsetting that our previously used shortcuts, some of which we've been using for years and years, were not just reset, but changed or overwritten. The most disruptive being show-special-brackets, fitting window, and new things taking the place of our old shortcuts. While not a technical issue, it's still a highly disruptive issue and simply bad design. And while on the subject of good design implementation, would it have been impossible to do the new shortcuts with the new optional beta feature?
I'm not sure where the right place to complain about it is, so I'm going to complain here: I've noticed a bit more client-side lag when switching active targets with the mouse. This means I get a lot of accidental double-module activation on targets I don't intend, especially when I'm applying modules to lots of different targets in rapid succession, most perplexedly, tractor beams (which should be impossible anyway.)
I really wish the new shortcuts were implemented in a less disruptive way so that I could have my mind on ways to how they can be made useful and intuitive rather than just about fixing what was broken and avoiding what could get you dead.
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ROXGenghis
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:49:00 -
[12]
The problem I have with the new system is the ambiguity introduced when you don't know where your focus is. And because you have to use so many windows during a fight, it's a PITA to keep track of your focus.
Example: I'm sitting on a gate, my focus is on the overview, and the gate is selected in the overview. I want to dock at a station and don't realize my focus is already on the overview, so I hold down the "jump/dock" hotkey and then click the station. Oops, I just jumped through the gate.
I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that using the hotkeys is too dangerous so I have to keep using the old GUI instead.
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Josefine Etrange
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:20:00 -
[13]
I love the new shortcuts, as well I love that with them together old bugs like alt+f4 not activating the fifths mid slow are fixed. Though I have to admit I did not run until now more into the depths of those shortcuts, but after I read in your blog about the new abilities I am sure I will. Using the mouse in eve annoys me most of the time, maybe I even start salvaging again if I can use just shortcuts for it.
Next thing on the wishlist for me would be make a lof of windows independent of the main window, so we can for example drag out the ingame browser, market or overview onto our desk, use some other applications like chrome or mail while still beeing able to monitor eve. Right now it is annoying that if you want to interact with any window of the eve interface the whole applications gets into fokus and for example your dvd, browser, calendar windows end all behind the eve main window. Making the window much smaller is not a solution for this either, as you want the space if you are interacting more with the game.
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The Shrimp
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: The Shrimp on 25/02/2011 18:30:50 Perhaps an easy fix such as making the overview stand out more when highlighted(in focus) will make it clear that commands only work when the overview is highlighted.
Another idea would be to make an icon next to current solarsystem name that toggle between green/red whether the overview was active or not(and therefore showing if commands "work" or not).
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M3ta7h3ad
Caldari Phrixus Mot
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:36:00 -
[15]
My problem isn't with the shortcuts themselves (okay w-click isn't exactly intuitive but you get used to it). It's that it's incredibly buggy.
Holding Ctrl and clicking for targeting can result in either it locking the target as instructed, not responding at all or worse (especially in an RR gang) it starts to approach the non-targeted target.
Basically its bugged to hell.
Click off of the screen (dual screen setup) in another app. and click back with ctrl depressed as you've just noticed something you need to lock up and it won't register it as being down, you then have to raise your hand, depress ctrl once again, wait for the message "select target" to appear on the screen before it will then finally register your clicks as targeting requests.
Remove the help text (or have an option to turn it off) as it seems to force you to wait until the help text is on screen before the shortcut is recognised. So ctrl + s I have to wait until I see "warp to" on screen before I can actually get it to warp to something that I click. ----- If you kill all the wolves, your gonna end up with a crapload of bunnies, and by bunnies I mean stupid people
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Minuit Soleil
Minmatar Imperium Technologies Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:48:00 -
[16]
The new shortcuts are great...
BUT...
(You knew it was coming ;) )
They could use a minor improvement. When, for instance, I adjust my settings to allow Drone's to be controlled by Ctrl+D, it doesn't actually work. Sure, it tells you why, "xxxxx is already bound to Ctrl+D" (paraphrasing) and you can then search it down and clear out the command you don't want, go back, and start over. But, the smoother function would be to have the game warn "Setting Ctrl+D to this function will unbind xxxxx" or something to that effect, and then when you tell it "Ok" have it do that.
That way we don't have to hunt through the pages of commands for the command that is bound by default to the buttons we want to use, just so we can use them.
My 2 ISK on the matter.
Fly Straight, they'll never expect it,
Minuit Soleil Fly Straight,
Minuit Soleil http://minuitsoleil.blogspot.com/
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Lolmer
Amarr Merciless Reckoning
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:52:00 -
[17]
I want my quick lock back (CTRL+left-click). I want to be able to freeze the Overview again so items aren't jumping around all the time. Where are my drone group commands (e.g. launch "Medium" drone group)? Why is the locked target item treated as a non-focus? Same with an item in space, it definitely is focused, just not via the Overview.
I like the new shortcuts, but lost functionality I liked before (e.g. keyboard + mouse combos and being able to lock a target without selecting it first, and making sure you don't lock the target you don't want).
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Daedalus II
Helios Research
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:06:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Daedalus II on 25/02/2011 19:08:12 I understand where you're coming from with the shortcut system, but it just doesn't work for me. To me a shortcut affects the current selection, that's how it is in every other game and application I have used at least. When I want to copy a piece of text I don't hold ctrl+c while making a new selection with the mouse and then release ctrl+c to make the actual copy, no I select the text and then click ctrl+c once. If I want to cut it out later I can just press ctrl+x directly instead of having to hold ctrl+x, selecting the same text again, and release ctrl+x.
With a "normal" shortcut system to execute two shortcuts on an object require three operations; (select, execute 1, execute 2), with your system six operations are required; (pre-execute 1, select, post-execute 1, pre-execute 2, select (same selection as before), post-execute 2). Even with your own weapon shortcuts you use the normal mechanic; it's not like you hold F1, select target, release F1, hold F2, select target, release F2, no you press F1, F2, F3 and it affects the current selection!
If you have to have it your way, can't you at least provide an option in the esc-menu with a check box where you choose between mechanic X ("normal") or mechanic A-B (yours)?
If someone choose to use the X mechanic they are aware that they might activate commands by mistake and have no one but themselves to blame. Have A-B as default and it's in no way your fault if people make misstakes.
___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research! |
Internet Knight
The Kobayashi Maru
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:06:00 -
[19]
CCP Optimal, you're awesome for explaining that to us.
Can you, or perhaps one of your peers, now explain to us why Planetary Interaction is likewise designed to be so tedious?
It's been HOW many years and we still don't have resource collection facilities that can automagically detect the best spots from which to collect resources?
It's been HOW many years and we still don't have automated methods of making the most efficient use of factories possible by just telling the command center what you want to build and letting it automate the production of your resources? ---
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Jenna Alduin
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:12:00 -
[20]
Maybe I missed something but how do I put the focus on the overview without clicking on it?
Is there a keyboard shortcut to cycle the focus through the open widows?
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Gekkoh
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:24:00 -
[21]
Quote: If any of you out there are half as lazy as I am, you'll curse every time software forces you to move your right hand from the warmth of your keyboard, over to the plastic rodent living next to it (yes, I'm a programmer).
I'm a programmer too, but years of PC gaming has conditioned me so that my left hand rests on WASD and my right on the mouse. I don't have any hard evidence to prove it, but I suspect that the majority of gamers have similar habits.
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Palovana
Caldari Inner Fire Inc.
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jenna Alduin Maybe I missed something but how do I put the focus on the overview without clicking on it?
Is there a keyboard shortcut to cycle the focus through the open widows?
ALT-space to focus the overview.
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Jenna Alduin
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Palovana
Originally by: Jenna Alduin Maybe I missed something but how do I put the focus on the overview without clicking on it?
Is there a keyboard shortcut to cycle the focus through the open widows?
ALT-space to focus the overview.
Ace
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:36:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Ban Doga on 25/02/2011 19:36:21
Quote: Once explained, this is all really rather simple and the combat commands become a powerful tool to execute actions faster than previously possible, but the problem remains that this new pattern is far from self-explanatory. Making it self-explanatory is definitely on our TODO list, and any ideas on how this would be best pursued are very welcome.
Two simple solution just top off my head to improve the situation:
1) forgo the need to be self-explanatory and provide an explanation how it works and why ("why" works wonders, even if it is a bad "why")
2) don't introduce a shortcut system that's unlike pretty much every other system on this planet and be surprised when people have problems understanding how it's supposed to work.
Quote: And this WILL NOT WORK:
X. Click the item in space, or its locked target icon, and THEN press W.
Uhm, why don't you make it work? Apparently people want to be able to do this (see point 2 above)
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Reicine Ceer
Rodents of Unusual Size
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:01:00 -
[25]
TL;DR - New shortcuts are ausum.
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I found it strangely difficult to grasp the pushing-a-button-to-jump thing, until i discovered that you had to have the OV focussed, after which, it was all gravy. Also, CTRL+SHIFT+Click to unlock targets is very, very much appreciated... definite pat on the back for whomever came up with that one! "Grammatically, the word 'nothing' is a noun, which suggests that it refers to something." - Wikipedia |
Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:09:00 -
[26]
The new combat shorcuts are completely useless for small scale combat because of this:
Originally by: CCP Optimal
Combat shortcuts without clicking were designed to be used with the overview and therefore require focus to be set to the window. This is very much by design, as the alternative of applying the combat command to the currently selected target, regardless of overview focus, would undoubtedly have led to a lot of accidental commands being executed.
I won't adopt to using a shortcut for "orbit" or "approach" etc unless they always apply to the selected item in the selected item box - just like my gun/ ewar shortcuts. In small scale combat, clicking in space ("manual flying") and switching overview tabs happen constantly, thus the current implementation of combat shortcuts is completely useless.
To be usable, they would need to always work on the "selected item" unless push+mouseclicked to override "selected item", or if in chat focus mode, it's as simple as that. ----------
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:15:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Raimo on 25/02/2011 20:15:08
Originally by: Daedalus II Edited by: Daedalus II on 25/02/2011 19:08:12 I understand where you're coming from with the shortcut system, but it just doesn't work for me. To me a shortcut affects the current selection, that's how it is in every other game and application I have used at least. When I want to copy a piece of text I don't hold ctrl+c while making a new selection with the mouse and then release ctrl+c to make the actual copy, no I select the text and then click ctrl+c once. If I want to cut it out later I can just press ctrl+x directly instead of having to hold ctrl+x, selecting the same text again, and release ctrl+x.
With a "normal" shortcut system to execute two shortcuts on an object require three operations; (select, execute 1, execute 2), with your system six operations are required; (pre-execute 1, select, post-execute 1, pre-execute 2, select (same selection as before), post-execute 2). Even with your own weapon shortcuts you use the normal mechanic; it's not like you hold F1, select target, release F1, hold F2, select target, release F2, no you press F1, F2, F3 and it affects the current selection!
If you have to have it your way, can't you at least provide an option in the esc-menu with a check box where you choose between mechanic X ("normal") or mechanic A-B (yours)?
If someone choose to use the X mechanic they are aware that they might activate commands by mistake and have no one but themselves to blame. Have A-B as default and it's in no way your fault if people make misstakes.
This is a good post, at least give us the preferences option to make the commands usable. ----------
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Ji'txi Mu'rah
Amarr 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:00:00 -
[28]
The shortcuts that everyone used such as fitting, quitting eve should not have been changed, but that's just my personal view. I changed them right back to what they were before, I dunno about anyone else.
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I'l Duce
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:08:00 -
[29]
Whats the difference between aproach and align to(?), can you allow ship to aproach an offgrid object or allow align to nearby object? 1 less button
Can you make it so that when you assign a button thats allready assigned it won't prevent the action alltogether but only give you warning that the button is allready bound and ask if you are sure you want to delete old one.
Also can we bind 2 functions to one key, for example if you wanted to bind warp to and dock/jump/activategate to same key. Those actions would fit into one key because you can't warp to nearby object that you may wanna jump/dock/activate and wiceversa.
a keybind to end all overloading would be usefull.
Is there a reason we can't assign keybind to a mouse button or scroll? Or is it just me...
about the cycle next selected item, can we use same buttons to cycle next object in the overview window? for example up/down for changind allready targeted items and shift-up/down to cycle overview items.
i think there is a small bug where if i choose target from bracket view and hit button to target it i can't target it but when i choose target from bracket view it works fine.
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Karash Amerius
Sutoka
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:14:00 -
[30]
Import / Export please. ========================= Karash Amerius - Operative - Sutoka Fighting Broke - A Eve Online Blog ========================= |
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