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Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.27 15:52:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Darknesss on 27/02/2011 15:52:23
Hey all,
I'm looking for one party to loan me 60-65b ISK at any one time (I wouldn't be comfortable loaning any more than this). This is to help fund a private project of mine that requires large ISK capital. I am looking to speed this project up.
As you may or may not know I currently act as a 3rd party in the trading of titans and motherships which provides me with a very profitable business based on trust.
What do you get?
A incredibly safe investment that will always be backed up by my own assets (I can provide screenshots of these) should something go wrong.
Quick and prompt weekly paid interest
What do I want?
Friendly investor
Even though I have the assets to sell to cover this loan, anyone I work with would need to give me notice if they need their investment back as the assets I have are not too quick to sell. I imagine one months notice would be suitable to let me raise the required capital to re-pay.
Please convo/mail me if you think this investment could be for you. I would be happy to answer any questions you have, though I will not speak with alts regarding this proposal.
If I cant find anyone suitable it wont be the end of the world, this is just something i've been curious about doing so i'm putting some feelers out to see what is out there.
Dark
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Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.27 16:04:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Darknesss
Edited by: Darknesss on 27/02/2011 15:57:26
Hey all,
I'm looking for one party to loan me 60-65b ISK at any one time (I wouldn't be comfortable loaning any more than this).
1) What's the rate?
2) Why only one person?
Vote KALRAND for CSM! |
MissEnigma
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Posted - 2011.02.27 16:38:00 -
[3]
Indeed, only one investor is a shame.
I would be interested in this, but not for the full amount.
If you could expand this to maybe 3 or 4 investors, i would like to hear more
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The Mattius
Enigma Technologies
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Posted - 2011.02.27 16:42:00 -
[4]
Sorry, just re-read about alts.
This is my main.
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Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.27 16:53:00 -
[5]
Well I could be open to more, but I really want to keep things very simple indeed, and for lower amounts I think overall people will want a higher return.
The rate is really negotiable.
What offer would you give in terms of isk and what return would you want if it was divided up between 3-4-5 people?
Dark
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Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.02.27 16:59:00 -
[6]
Darknesss!!!!?!?&$@
Sup.
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.02.27 17:09:00 -
[7]
Stop farting around on MD and make eve videos :P
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Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.27 17:13:00 -
[8]
lol :(
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Khanid Voltar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2011.02.27 18:52:00 -
[9]
You have mail ingame :).
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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
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Posted - 2011.02.27 19:23:00 -
[10]
I'm interested in loaning the full 65b isk, but I have some basic questions:
1) Length of loan?
2) Interest and/or equity offered for the loan?
3) Is there collateral offered?
4) Can you give just a rough estimate of your current NAV?
Cheers,
Edwin
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.27 20:27:00 -
[11]
With no guarantees in the game, and with increasing concern in MD about trustworthiness, regardless of person involved:
1. Why do you need the cash if your business is very profitable?
2. Will you be happy to undergo an audit?
3. If it is backed up with high quality assets, would you lock them into a holding corp with some trustees with shares that will vote to unlock after ISK is returned?
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Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.27 22:57:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Darknesss on 27/02/2011 22:57:14
Edwin Rothbard
1) Length is undetermined, I would like to be able to finish off paying the loan at any time, in all likelihood if I had the ISK to do that though, I would probably rather continue the loan and reinvest, at some point however I will pay the loan off in full, it really depends on when I'm in a suitable position to do that.
2) Interest is negotiable, obviously I'm looking for the best deal I can and I have to weigh up whether the loan is also worth it to me and you of course have to know its worth it for you.
3) Collateral would be hard to provide as my assets are in constant use generating more income, providing them as collateral would damage profitability and ultimately be an extra cost on the interest I would already be paying out. What you would have as collateral is my reputation, which is worth far more than 65b.
4) NAV is relatively large, certainly a lot larger than the loan I'm looking for, I would be happy to discuss that point with you in private but I prefer not to air it all on a public forum, I'd rather keep as much information as possible private.
Cosmoray
There are never any guarantees but there are varying degrees of risk. Taking into account that I on a daily basis handle sums larger than the loan I'm looking for I would say that my original comment of it being a very safe investment stands.
1. Because even very profitable businesses such as mine take time to accumulate that cash. Even though alot of my current assets which I had originally planned to sell off at this time's base value EASILY covers the loan i'm asking for, their value has depreciated and I believe the price will soon go back to what it previously was, allowing me to make the profit originally intended.
More important to me than money is time, and the time I spend making the ISK could be used effectively to further my project. I by no means NEED a loan, I simply think that it would speed things up for me.
2. Depends what it involves, I will not reveal the location of my assets, so I would not allow anyone to enter the corporation with my assets in. I can offer video footage of the assets I have and or screenshots.
3. My assets will remain under my complete control. I would rather go the patient route and raise the cash myself than split up control of my assets. I understand this could put potential investors off, if thats the case then I understand completely, but its not something I would be happy to do.
If these terms are not acceptable to anyone then thats absolutely fine and I COMPLETELY understand the hesitation. What I would say is that a simple calculation from my thread alone will show that I would be an idiot to throw that business away for 65b.
I hope that answers both of your questions :)
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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
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Posted - 2011.02.27 23:47:00 -
[13]
Thanks for your answers.
Edwin
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Misty McGinnity
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Posted - 2011.02.28 00:07:00 -
[14]
What im seeing here is a trustworthy guy who's very busy. Just wants a loan from 1 guy, as a bond/loan with 100+ ppl involved will take ALOT of time to sort out interest payments.
in saying that, if you allow a minimum investment of say 500m @ 5% - 10%+ max investment of 20b, this would fill faster than a supermarket on pension day.
inb4 raw23 takes whole loan.
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.28 00:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Misty McGinnity
inb4 raw23 takes whole loan.
Will never happen as it has to be collateralized. Honestly I'm not surprised someone hasn't taken the entire thing yet.
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Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2011.02.28 08:29:00 -
[16]
Agreed, I might provide the lot (providing we can agree upon interest rate) but it would have to be at completely or at least mostly collateralized.
My policy these days is: I don't care how big your epeen/ehonour is, I'll only loan if I'm covered. 
--------------------------------------
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Khanid Voltar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2011.02.28 08:48:00 -
[17]
In my opinion, there is really very little risk in this investment.
Dark makes his money from holding isk in escrow for SC's and Titans. People pay him for the privilege and he has done well at it. A titan seems to cost well in excess of the value of this bond so each time he handles a titan he would have more than the value of this offering in liquid isk in his wallet to run with.
If he defaults on this loan he is in effect losing the reputation he has worked so hard to build in trading supercaps, for less than the value of one titan trade; it makes no sense for him to do so.
I am prepared to offer up to a third of the value of this bond, at a negotiable rate.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.02.28 09:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Misty McGinnity
inb4 raw23 takes whole loan.
Will never happen as it has to be collateralized. Honestly I'm not surprised someone hasn't taken the entire thing yet.
This.
There are all sorts of problems with this as a loan/bond offering. Whilst Darkness' reputation may be stellar anyone investing on the assumption of absolute security with any uncollateralised offering is a fool. A risk/reward assessment still needs to be made. I'm afraid that offers of screenshots/video in place of an audit don't cut it at all as they can be tampered with. Without knowing the OP's own NAV assessing risk will be very difficult. Insistence on secrecy and discussion of terms in private for an offering announced publicly is also a potential investor deathtrap as it gives someone with the intention to scam the chance to raise the same amount of fund from more than one person before walking off. Regardless of reputation, any potential investor should insist on the discussions taking place in the open. There is no real need for secrecy in such matters and whilst secrecy may provide a mild bonus for the offeror its potential abuse and lack of any upside for investors should mean that investors rule it out as an option straightaway.
As I see it, the main risk here is that Darkness could be looking to cash in his reputation and add one or two times 65bil from MD to however many Titans he might have the chance to walk with. I have no reason to think that this is actually the case but this is the risk scenario that the OP needs to work on alleviating concerns about. This is quite likely to fill in any case but if it does not and Darkness decides to open it up to smaller investors, provides a business plan and gets a basic audit done I would be interested in investing a few bil in a more open offer subject to interest rates. I'll also offer my services in paying out the interest if the workload of paying out to a large number of people is what is deterring you from opening this up to more investors than just a small circle.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.02.28 09:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Khanid Voltar
In my opinion, there is really very little risk in this investment.
Dark makes his money from holding isk in escrow for SC's and Titans. People pay him for the privilege and he has done well at it. A titan seems to cost well in excess of the value of this bond so each time he handles a titan he would have more than the value of this offering in liquid isk in his wallet to run with.
If he defaults on this loan he is in effect losing the reputation he has worked so hard to build in trading supercaps, for less than the value of one titan trade; it makes no sense for him to do so.
The argument that someone will remain honest because it pays them to do so is fine until they decide they don't want to pursue that business anymore (see Bad Bobby). I think it would be safe to assume that any default on this loan would be accompanied by a few stolen supercaps as well so an investor has to look at what the total potential upside for a scammer would be in the case of a scam. You won't actually be investing in a 65bil exposed position but probably something closer to 200bil in total. You then need to ask what Darkness' personal NAV is and how this figure looks laid against it and also how much he makes on each supercap trade and how many he does over a year or so to get a feeling for how much that business is worth, if you are just going to examine things from the perspective of it not being worthwhile to scam. Again, I'm not implying there is any reason to think this is a scam, I'm just suggesting that your risk assessment needs to take into account more factors than that this is a smaller value than a single Titan trade.
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.02.28 09:39:00 -
[20]
Edited by: flakeys on 28/02/2011 09:43:12
Originally by: Misty McGinnity
What im seeing here is a trustworthy guy who's very busy. Just wants a loan from 1 guy, as a bond/loan with 100+ ppl involved will take ALOT of time to sort out interest payments.
What i am seeing here is someone who allready should have an enormous isk amount and is asking for more on behalf of reputation.
Not to offend darkness because i know the guy from back in PB when G/Iron still ruled the place , RAZOR was nothing but a nobody alliance of carebears in 5ZX and before TRI was even born.He is a stand up guy who i allways respected both in pvp and personal dealings , yet i would not fill this loan on behalf of what i have stated above.
Reputation in eve means jack **** in MD these days to a lot of people.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.28 10:01:00 -
[21]
Darkness,
there are several guys in MD who could easily fill in multiple of such request but the fact they did not show up plus the words spoken by prominent investors RAW23 and Flakeys mean that there's a too high risk vs reward curve.
I don't know if anything would help at this point, if an audit in RAW23's terms would be "enough" or even just a starting point, I am available to perform it starting March 2-3.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.02.28 10:16:00 -
[22]
I don't see how an audit would be of much use in this instance.
Joint Venture Conglomerate |
Khanid Voltar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2011.02.28 10:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: flakeys
Reputation in eve means jack **** in MD these days to a lot of people.
Points taken, and I guess I should add that I have personally served under Dark in both D00M. and Triumvirate on former mains of mine (that have since been liquidated). Dark even personally intervened when I got market scammed by an alliance mate once and got the isk back for me.
So I would guess even though he might not remember me as a pilot I remember him as a CEO and Alliance leader, not just by reputation, and he has always struck me as a pilot of great integrity.
Admittedly I would be a lot more conservative in any investment made if I hadnt flown under him for the same reasons as others have provided. This is MD and when it comes to investments certain conventions need to be adhered to to minimise concerns over risk.
So I guess I am saying that I agree with the concerns noted, but my personal experience of the guy counts for a lot more.
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.02.28 10:22:00 -
[24]
Edited by: flakeys on 28/02/2011 10:23:06
Originally by: Khanid Voltar
So I guess I am saying that I agree with the concerns noted, but my personal experience of the guy counts for a lot more.
Wich is why i believe this would fill for sure and also feel an audit would have no point.
If he is just patient i am sure within a few days it get's filled.Just not by the MD regulars probably but more people who know him 'personally' ingame or who do hold eve reputation highly with investments.
I would treat a request from chribba the same way as this these days.There was a time when i would have bumped my head if i would mis out on such an offer though.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.02.28 10:27:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jackie Fisher
I don't see how an audit would be of much use in this instance.
A fullscale audit would not add much but confirmation of NAV would be an important factor in my personal decision making. It would be nice to know that the OP isn't down to his last dime because of an EOH addiction but, more importantly, to know just how much, proportionately, this loan is worth to him.
Depending on the business plan an audit could be more important. If, for instance, the plan involved building supercaps in nullsec I would definitely want confirmation that the OP could absorb 100% losses in that venture and still be able to pay me back. We are talking about a large amount of isk here and as far as I'm concerned every possible tool should be used to inform potential investors as well as possible.
But these are all tools I personally would want to apply when investing on MD in people I don't really know much about otherwise. I would expect this to fill from people who know Darkness in game and have something other to go on than just a risk assessment (or from someone who clearly has too much isk like Aishwari Rai (spelling?)).
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Misty McGinnity
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Posted - 2011.02.28 10:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I don't know if anything would help at this point, if an audit in RAW23's terms would be "enough" or even just a starting point, I am available to perform it starting March 2-3.
Of the 100's of super & titan trades he has done did any of them require an audit? you people & your audits 
tl:dr:
Quote:
Over 14 Trillion ISK in assets handled to date
Trades Completed:
Titans: 52
Supercarriers: 489
Lotteries Completed:
Titans: 3
Supercarriers: 54
14 trillion handled, NO AUDIT.
@raw, fair enough about collateral.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.02.28 11:05:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Misty McGinnity
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I don't know if anything would help at this point, if an audit in RAW23's terms would be "enough" or even just a starting point, I am available to perform it starting March 2-3.
Of the 100's of super & titan trades he has done did any of them require an audit? you people & your audits
tl:dr:
Quote:
Over 14 Trillion ISK in assets handled to date
Trades Completed:
Titans: 52
Supercarriers: 489
Lotteries Completed:
Titans: 3
Supercarriers: 54
14 trillion handled, NO AUDIT.
@raw, fair enough about collateral.
Total handled is really not important. How much has he had in his hands at any one time is more to the point. He has never been in a position to steal 14 trillion or 52 Titans. He has been in a position to steal one or two at a time. he will STILL be in a position to steal those Titans WHILST this loan is running. It is important to note that the amount involved in this loan is not an alternative to the Titan business but an addition to it. He is taking on extra liabilities and the fact that there was no audit for his previous liabilities does nothing at all to change the fact that I personally would want to know certain pieces of info if I were to invest. the idea that you just give a pass to people once they reach a certain level of reputation has been shown repeatedly to have disastrous consequences. Far more isk has been stolen or lost by people with the highest reps than by everyone else combined. This suggests they need more watching not less.
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The Mattius
Enigma Technologies
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Posted - 2011.02.28 11:13:00 -
[28]
I'm probably going to tread on toes here 
Darkness has asked for a private loan, terms to be agreed with the investor(s).
Seems to me, you would either lend it or not depending on the risk perceived.
Why would he need to provide an audit or disclose his business here?
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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.02.28 11:17:00 -
[29]
Originally by: RAW23
Show me the NAV
Is it possible to determine what is owned by the auditee and what is collateral/third party stuff they are handling?
Joint Venture Conglomerate |
RAW23
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Posted - 2011.02.28 11:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: The Mattius
Seems to me, you would either lend it or not depending on the risk perceived.
Why would he need to provide an audit or disclose his business here?
Perception of risk is going to be determined according to the available information. This is not a private loan, this is a public request for a loan. If people are willing to do their business off the board then good luck to them but they are putting themselves in a position whereby they are a) providing someone with the opportunity to take isk off them and then the same amount off the other person who has been told they are the only person being negotiated with, and b) they lose out on various available forms of scrutiny. Doing things in this way provide no benefits to the investor, as far as I can see, but do increase a number of areas of risk. It was only a few weeks ago that someone ran a scam based on these very principles so I'm somewhat surprised that people would be happy to ignore the lessons of that case so soon.
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