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Cherab
Unforeseen Consequences. The Unthinkables
0
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Posted - 2012.08.24 23:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
After resubbing after long break it looks like these have broken sniper hac role... or am i missing something?
+same speed +cheaper +same HP +twice the tracking at 100km with faction +twice the damage +faster align (lol) +insurance
-BC sig -scan res
[Talos, gtfo] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge L
Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Warrior II x5
That's 451dps without drones @102 + 49km, 0.02368 tracks twice as fast as 720 muninn with tremor 0.01121 (2*TE). 1600m/s 6.1s align
Surely that aint right |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
109
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Posted - 2012.08.24 23:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
You aren't imagining things...
Have a look at that the naga can do at that range, with a similar setup. Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if you strapped a beehive to Robocop. |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
295
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Posted - 2012.08.24 23:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
HACs need a big remake, they should compete with tech3's for the dps role. |
Noisrevbus
210
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Posted - 2012.08.24 23:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
It ain't right, but it's true.
You are overlooking a few minor details (when you just compute rad in the accuracy equation), but overall they are completely outstanding as a class like that.
Within the class i tend to agree with you about the Talos. I consider it the best, but all of them are functional, have their own little corner to shine or excel and there will definately be other oppinions voiced about which one is the best among them.
For me, the tracking bonus, the drones and how both the rails and blasters adapt, along with general application and mobility make the Talos the best overall.
The Tornado have two eligable LR fits (since even with AC it has a ridiculous falloff around 70km) and the capless weapons make it appealing for yet another new overpowered introduction: ASB, while the Oracle have a similar appeal of LR and more LR plus some interesting offside tricks like armor tanking it. The Naga have it's rail range and raw straight application at that range which make it appealing in larger gangs, but i don't see much outside application apart from that (extreme range blasters in all honor, but it doesn't hit breakpoints between tackle ranges, while slow and slot-impaired). |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1994
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Posted - 2012.08.25 00:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cherab wrote: That's 451dps without drones @102 + 49km, 0.02368 tracks twice as fast as 720 muninn with tremor 0.01121 (2*TE). 1600m/s 6.1s align
Surely that aint right
You're right, it isn't. The Sig Resolution on those BS turrets is quite a bit higher than the sig resolution on those 720s. You can basically divide the Talos's tracking by 3 (400/125.0)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cherab
Unforeseen Consequences. The Unthinkables
0
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Posted - 2012.08.25 00:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
EFT'd an AB on a cruiser and did a damage graph test. At 90deg transversal full velocity 536m/s with AB on (155 sig) cruiser is still hit for more than 100dps more by Talos than Muninn at 100km
Unless EFT is wrong of course |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1994
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Posted - 2012.08.25 00:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cherab wrote:EFT'd an AB on a cruiser and did a damage graph test. At 90deg transversal full velocity 536m/s with AB on (155 sig) cruiser is still hit for more than 100dps more by Talos than Muninn at 100km
Unless EFT is wrong of course
That would be because the Talos deals a lot more raw damage at better range than the Muninn. You could snipe out at 150km with the Talos if you didn't mind people on-grid probing you. But saying the Talos tracks better than the Muninn is just incorrect. ;-)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cherab
Unforeseen Consequences. The Unthinkables
0
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Posted - 2012.08.25 00:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
but it does track better lol, the gun res is just a damage modifier |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1994
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Posted - 2012.08.25 00:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cherab wrote:but it does track better lol, the gun res is just a damage modifier
No, the gun res is a modifier in the tracking formula. Please educate yourself.
-Liang
Ed: http://wiki.eve-id.net/Tracking Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cherab
Unforeseen Consequences. The Unthinkables
0
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Posted - 2012.08.25 01:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
It can track faster but can't hit smaller targets as hard due to larger calibre and 'spread' of the projectile. At least that's how i remember it from an old flash tracking tutorial. |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1994
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Posted - 2012.08.25 01:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cherab wrote:It can track faster but can't hit smaller targets as hard due to larger calibre and 'spread' of the projectile. At least that's how i remember it from an old flash tracking tutorial.
Then you remember wrong. Look at the formula for a moment:
(Sig Resolution) / (Sig Radius) * (Transveral) / (Tracking * Range)
Let's do some numeric substitution and call "Transversal/(Tracking*Range)" as blob "how easy it is to hit"
So with a cruiser: 125 / 100 * "how easy it is to hit" With a BS: 400 / 100 * "how easy it is to hit"
-Liang
Ed: BTW, bigger numbers are bad. Transversal is in the numerator and high transversal is bad, right? :) Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cherab
Unforeseen Consequences. The Unthinkables
0
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Posted - 2012.08.25 02:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yep looking at the formula it looks like when you shoot something with larger sig than your guns your tracking speed actually increases and vice versa. Makes no sense but there you go |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
41
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Posted - 2012.08.25 02:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cherab wrote:Yep looking at the formula it looks like when you shoot something with larger sig than your guns your tracking speed actually increases and vice versa. Makes no sense but there you go
I don't see how it doesn't make sense given that signature radius is how big your target appears to various "sensors." Hitting an apple with a cannon is going to be a pain in the ass, but hitting the broad side of the barn should be no trouble at all, even if the barn is moving. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1995
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Posted - 2012.08.25 04:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cherab wrote:Yep looking at the formula it looks like when you shoot something with larger sig than your guns your tracking speed actually increases and vice versa. Makes no sense but there you go
Heh, ok so now we can all agree that the Talos tracks significantly worse than the Muninn. It just has a lot higher base DPS. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
513
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Posted - 2012.08.25 05:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
its only true in blobs where reps are irrelevant. |
Cpt Branko
Zawa's Fan Club
59
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Posted - 2012.08.25 06:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
Don't forget you can use a Talos as a nano-HAC and not only a sniper ship. Sure, the tracking / lack of neut if you screw up is somewhat of a pain (but good enough, especially when you add the Talos's speed to it), but it has absolutely absurd DPS compared to classic nano HACs and very similar speed to a Vagabond.
They're just poorly thought out ships (much like the ASB is a poorly thought out module); they more or less obsolete normal BCs (well, Drake has some purpose because it has a lot more EHP and can project damage reasonably well) for fighting beyond point blank range and a whole lot of other things.
Of course, it's CCP; people say that battlecruisers were historically "cruisers with BS guns", disregarding the fact that Tier 1 & Tier 2 BCs were more balanced in comparison, and CCP goes on to add that.
As for tracking, sig resolution is merely a modifier in the tracking formula, nothing else. It may or may not make sense to you, but it's how the game works. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
182
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Posted - 2012.08.25 09:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
Shereza wrote:Cherab wrote:Yep looking at the formula it looks like when you shoot something with larger sig than your guns your tracking speed actually increases and vice versa. Makes no sense but there you go I don't see how it doesn't make sense given that signature radius is how big your target appears to various "sensors." Hitting an apple with a cannon is going to be a pain in the ass, but hitting the broad side of the barn should be no trouble at all, even if the barn is moving. Very much this.
If anything doesnt make sense about tracking in this game, its the fact that they dont take ship orientation into the equation.
IE if I'm orbiting a stationary object, my guns should not have to track at all. (provided I'm in a circular orbit)
For example, the moon orbits the earth, but the same side of the moon always faces the earth, so if someone were to put a gun on the moon, and to hit the earth, they could shoot that gun 24/7 w/o moving it or tracking and always hit the earth provided they aimed right.
getting back to the topic at hand, I dont think the T3s overshadow the HAC in every way, yes they probably are better snipers, but they do not really stand up in the brawler category. Armor HACs would rip a gang of these in two.
That being said, I think these things could really use a hit in the agility/mass category, keep them as fast as they are, but make them a bit less agile; I think that would be more balanced. |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
74
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Posted - 2012.08.25 14:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote:HACs need a big remake, they should compete with tech3's for the dps role.
Seconded.
HACs should basically perform like Tech3s set up for DPS, minus the flexibility of swapping out subsystems. Right now, T3s equipeed for DPS significantly outperform HACs. |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
74
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Posted - 2012.08.25 14:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sigras wrote:For example, the moon orbits the earth, but the same side of the moon always faces the earth,
That's because the moon is tidally locked to the earth. This is a situation that doesn't happen with EVE ships, since they don't orbit each other due to gravity, but by using their engines.
The guns _still_ have to track the stationary target at the spaceships attitude control isn't precise enough to aim guns at something (would be nice if it were, since then you could build a spaceship around a huge friggin' gun and wouldn't have to bother with sticking comparatively tiny guns on turrets on large spaceships. Think A-10 or Homeworld's Ion Frigate). |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
439
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Posted - 2012.08.25 16:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
talos is by far the best with a long point and null loaded blasters, ganky gank biatches! http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
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Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
184
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Posted - 2012.08.25 17:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Exploited Engineer wrote:Sigras wrote:For example, the moon orbits the earth, but the same side of the moon always faces the earth, That's because the moon is tidally locked to the earth. This is a situation that doesn't happen with EVE ships, since they don't orbit each other due to gravity, but by using their engines. The guns _still_ have to track the stationary target at the spaceships attitude control isn't precise enough to aim guns at something (would be nice if it were, since then you could build a spaceship around a huge friggin' gun and wouldn't have to bother with sticking comparatively tiny guns on turrets on large spaceships. Think A-10 or Homeworld's Ion Frigate). I think you may be misunderstanding the principle . . .
picture this: Im running around a pole clockwise. that pole is going to be off to my right; if I want to point at the pole i just extend my arm out to the right.
now as im running, I can just keep extending my arm out to the right to keep pointing at the pole, and I never have to move my arm, provided that im in a circular orbit, i never have to move my arm and it will always be pointing at the pole; my arm doesnt have to "track" at all.
this is just like the ships should be. the same side of my thorax/hurrucane etc is facing the target, my guns have had to move 0 degrees to keep pointing at it.
Now that being said, I understand why they dont do this, the number of calculations this would add per volley would make the server cry. |
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
329
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Posted - 2012.08.26 11:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cherab wrote:That's 451dps without drones @102 + 49km, 0.02368 tracks twice as fast as 720 muninn with tremor 0.01121 (2*TE). 1600m/s 6.1s align
Surely that aint right
Naga can do 700 DPS at that range... although it pays a price in terms of mobility and EHP. |
Noisrevbus
212
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Posted - 2012.08.26 11:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cpt Branko wrote: They're just poorly thought out ships (much like the ASB is a poorly thought out module); they more or less obsolete normal BCs (well, Drake has some purpose because it has a lot more EHP and can project damage reasonably well) for fighting beyond point blank range and a whole lot of other things.
Agreed.
Though i wouldn't say poorly thought out as much as narrowly scoped.
To me, the Tier 3 BC embody the perspective of the new generation of game designers (Soundwave, Ytterbium et. al.). While a confirmation is unlikely, it's somewhat evident that they were designed only with large scale PvP and the "Drake" problem in mind. They were meant to offer up a bridging alternative inbetween Drakes and Baddons or Maels. They were supposed to combat Drakes, give incentive to train toward BS and they were supposed to push up cost a little bit (slightly more minerals in the hulls and the BS weapons). That it reinvigorated the SHAC tactics was likely a nostalgic design-choice once the introduction had been decided. In that sense it just become yet another tactic to be readily prepared for the masses with easier accessability. Do you miss nano? Here, have it on much cheaper ships so everyone can do it.
Though, everyone could already do it, old roaming groups were hardly rich. It's just a question of risk-reward mindset.
When you try to appeal to that by changing it, you just feed the problem you try to deal with.
That any such mindset stomp all over most ships that were already not part of the hegemony going from cost-effect to hitpoint-buffer (BC-SC), that was the poorly thought-out part. It's like the developers belived that if a ship wasn't popular (at large scale) it didn't exist. That's another reason why i am very sceptical to the whole comprehensive ship overhaul project. It's spanning years so it will continue to rip up and ripple ship balance for a very long time, the recent track-record isn't very trustworthy (hence this thread) and it's obvious to me that they still maintain the same perspective.
How can we make Frigates more used? It's the same approach again a year later.
At the end of the day it's just a cost-effect dump, moving expensive tactical lynchpins over to inexpensive platforms - and providing powerful options to a thoughtless tactical setting. Even as it stand, many players get into alot of ships before they know how to handle them, and we're getting ever increasingly shallow in our use. The whole notion of new-player-experience, player-retention and all that is definately second in nature. Claiming that the two odd weeks you had to train to get into an Interceptor somehow made people stop playing is laughable.
That training time mean little in the scope of things. Moving a 30m loss over to "free" matter alot more, or makes PvP matter alot less. Of course, recent threads like "What is the role for Interceptors now?" are quite obvious and pointless, yet it's the same discussion in a broader perspective. The same applies to the BC. The Tier 3 BC have done much less to give incentive traveling the Drake-Mael route to lower cost-effect as it has to raise cost-effect by obscuring other more expensive and impopular concepts. The exact opposite of the intention, because you can't adress a hegemony if your perspective do not go beyond it. If EVE only had Drakes, Tier 3 BC, Tier 3 BS and Capitals (combined with "Rifters that the newbros fly and Tengus or whatever it is the elitebros fly"), then their introduction would likely have been a success. In fact, among the large-scale actors it is probably seen as a success. At the same time, it doesn't really affect them in the slightest, for what they do the old ships are still the better options. Drakes are still cheaper, Tengus still beat them while BS and Capitals still out-scale them.
At the end of the day their effect have become "less meaningful PvP" rather than dealing with the meaninglessness of "Drakes".
That's how it relate to the whole scaling thing. It's not like it's impossible to fight blobs, or that they have never existed in the past (as some people like to sneer and point out). The problem lie in worthwhile targets and choking the game out. Even if certain cheaper options may not be as good, once you transfer the speciality over they will get used and you feed numbers.
It's interesting to see the train of thought just chugging on while more parts of the community are slowly waking up to realize that the game have issues with making the world meaningful. It's interesting to see Tech (the mineral) being described as an issue and SRP-finances gone over while ship balance head for the end-station of free ships for the passengers.
Quote:As for tracking, sig resolution is merely a modifier in the tracking formula, nothing else. It may or may not make sense to you, but it's how the game works.
The tracking discussion is interesting but i think there's some risk that it beaches on principles. If you combine the general use of MWD with the mobility of the Tier 3 BC you can easily see that there are no massive tracking issues for a well-composed, skillpointed and experienced gang. Discussing the merits of raw dps in regard to an AB tank offtracks alot since it only assume those sig-tanks that can hit at distance.
I remember making that example in regard to the Deimos on several occassions. How they did well against the same common gangs (Tier 2 BC and BS) prior to Crucible, but how the Tier 3 BC just stretched the necessary uptime of MWD to more or less invalidate rush tactics.
That means the only way to deal with the new ships become combining sig-tank with either reach or simultanious speed (not shifting speed, as a competent BC-groups will only sort-by-distance kite that like old nano gangs). |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
672
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Posted - 2012.08.26 13:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:its only true in blobs where reps are irrelevant.
When you outnumber your opponents you're not blobbing:
-you're smarter then them -using smarter tactics -have more friends -you're better than them -better organisation than them -elite pvp
When you are outnumbered by your opponents:
-it's a f++cking blob man!! -your scumshit blobbers, go play wow you dumbasses, gtfo of my game!
This is how Eve players judge Eve pvp. This also explains why Eve nerds are to nerds what nerds are to normal people, well at least at some extent. brb |
Noisrevbus
214
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Posted - 2012.08.26 16:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
Lin, i think you have an issue with terminology there.
Blob in EVE can be defined in many ways but they all tend to belong to two over-arcing collective terms:
1. the act of blobbing someone (essentially a shift from the genre where gank have come to mean [burst-] damage, while blob have come to mean gank [gang-kill]), or overwhelming an opponent.
2. an obscure high-number mass, where volume trumph any differentiation.
They do relate to each other in several ways, but there is also definate distinction between them.
I have a feeling Jack Miton referred to the second definition, though when he only notes down a single sentence it's hard to know for sure. I belive he tried to say that the class only present problems when grouped in large numbers. On the other hand, regarding the Tier 3 BC (as opposed Tier 2 BC), he's wrong about that - it's actually the opposite.
What Crucible did to the HAC-class is pretty much like you say though, it relegated all of the ships further to situational use. The question i raise is what you or Ybert () envision for the future? Looking at current pace, it'll be years until HAC's are adressed and how do you or them intend for the ships to be balanced? Should they be incredibly powerful to warrant the cost-difference or should they remain inefficient while the game around them continue to favour cost-effect?
My gripe with this whole carousel has continously been that the existing balance (let's define that as: prior to Crucible) was not bad from a mechanical standpoint. Battlecruisers never were too good in relation to HAC (note: i fly alot of HAC, little BC), they were too cost-effective. If they already had a good balance performance wise, why are we undertaking this massive project, and what do people envision to get out of it in the end? What mechanics do you assume to improve?
The "math" is pretty simple: if HAC cost as much as BC, they would be used more. If that mutual cost was low (make HAC cheaper), they would be used more in larger numbers and the ships with tank-projection would be used the most. If the mutual cost is higher (make BC more expensive) you balance the value of numbers and risk-reward with losses. That enables more diversity in scale and ships used. |
Dorian Tormak
P00N Company
65
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Posted - 2012.08.26 17:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Jack Miton wrote:its only true in blobs where reps are irrelevant. When you outnumber your opponents you're not blobbing: -you're smarter then them -using smarter tactics -have more friends -you're better than them -better organisation than them -elite pvp When you are outnumbered by your opponents: -it's a f++cking blob man!! -your scumshit blobbers, go play wow you dumbasses, gtfo of my game! This is how Eve players judge Eve pvp. This also explains why Eve nerds are to nerds what nerds are to normal people, well at least at some extent. Hahaha, that's funny.
Oh wait are you serious, ok let me laugh even harder, hahahahahahahahahahaha Yo |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
677
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 17:50:00 -
[27] - Quote
Dorian Tormak wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Jack Miton wrote:its only true in blobs where reps are irrelevant. When you outnumber your opponents you're not blobbing: -you're smarter then them -using smarter tactics -have more friends -you're better than them -better organisation than them -elite pvp When you are outnumbered by your opponents: -it's a f++cking blob man!! -your scumshit blobbers, go play wow you dumbasses, gtfo of my game! This is how Eve players judge Eve pvp. This also explains why Eve nerds are to nerds what nerds are to normal people, well at least at some extent. Hahaha, that's funny. Oh wait are you serious, ok let me laugh even harder, hahahahahahahahahahaha
Even if I wasn't does it really matters, does it? -any way me too I laugh about this every time I read "blob" and "gang" then "pvp". Happy I made you laugh dude brb |
Katalci
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
126
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Posted - 2012.08.28 17:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
m8, LRHACs were pretty much dead already. These BCs revived them. (also -- they don't have twice the tracking. It's actually significantly worse. Take the signature resolution multiplier into account.) |
Maeltstome
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Intrepid Crossing
58
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Posted - 2012.08.29 15:50:00 -
[29] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cherab wrote: That's 451dps without drones @102 + 49km, 0.02368 tracks twice as fast as 720 muninn with tremor 0.01121 (2*TE). 1600m/s 6.1s align
Surely that aint right
You're right, it isn't. The Sig Resolution on those BS turrets is quite a bit higher than the sig resolution on those 720s. You can basically divide the Talos's tracking by 3 (400/125.0) -Liang
But you know yourself that in larger fleets that means nothing cause at that range tracking is practically non-existant. Combine it with support fleets with web's and TP's and it becomes obvious that HAC's are fairly pointless in the sniper role. (Hell you can fit out an autocannon tornado which hits to the same range as medium arties but has better tracking and DPS.) |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2019
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 15:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Cherab wrote: That's 451dps without drones @102 + 49km, 0.02368 tracks twice as fast as 720 muninn with tremor 0.01121 (2*TE). 1600m/s 6.1s align
Surely that aint right
You're right, it isn't. The Sig Resolution on those BS turrets is quite a bit higher than the sig resolution on those 720s. You can basically divide the Talos's tracking by 3 (400/125.0) -Liang But you know yourself that in larger fleets that means nothing cause at that range tracking is practically non-existant. Combine it with support fleets with web's and TP's and it becomes obvious that HAC's are fairly pointless in the sniper role. (Hell you can fit out an autocannon tornado which hits to the same range as medium arties but has better tracking and DPS.)
The size of your fleet doesn't make tracking non-existent; it just means that you have enough people and base DPS to overcome your lack of it. Also, tracking does matter even out at 150km+ where I usually snipe from. And I frequently use faction ammo for the superior tracking no less!
But that's not to say that LR HACs aren't pointless, because for the most part they are... but still. There's no reason to go spreading disinformation. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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