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Ezekeil Rage
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Posted - 2011.03.16 18:53:00 -
[1]
I've been playing the game for a short while now (6 months played approximately), and am wondering what place the smaller ships have in the game. I can fly up to a raven currently (but have nowhere near the funds nor the practical experience to do so), but am finding the further I move out from my Merlin, the less I like the style of the ships I'm in. Yes, the Drake's tank and 7 launcher's are impressive, but the speed and style of the Rifter/Merlin is FUN.
If I want to partake in missioning or wardecs, it seems like bigger is almost universally better. So, I'm left asking the community: What activities can I partake in that will make flying an AF as successful as it is entertaining? ------------------------------------------------------ Shadow-war - you should click this link |
Lain Umi
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Posted - 2011.03.16 19:12:00 -
[2]
to specifically answer your question, AF's dont have a role that isnt better performed by inties and t1 cruisers. dps in a small AF gang can add up, making them somewhat effective in highly organized hit and run against other small gangs that dont know what theyre doing. tackling is better done by inties, by far. a well fit t1 cruiser will have 4 times the EHP and twice the dps of the best AF. AF's are very squishy, and will generally get melted by high-tracking medium turrets and small drones. despite what you might read on these forums, fitting an AB on an AF (for anything other than a predictable 1v1) is suicide.
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Sigras
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Posted - 2011.03.16 19:28:00 -
[3]
To answer your second question, I think for missions you need to be in a cruiser sized ship at least to run them with anything that may be confused with efficiency, but some of the cruisers can be flown like frigates with the fast maneuverability style of things
For PvP, assault frigates arent terribly useful unless in a fleet specifically designed for them, but the interceptors are always welcome, they make great tacklers and make for fine combat ships.
Additionally, try the vagabond and stabber if you like fast maneuverable ships
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Karl Planck
Walt Disney Productions
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Posted - 2011.03.16 19:37:00 -
[4]
meh, don't listen to these guys. AF's are just fine, just depends what you do with them. Most AFs can take down BC's and BS's that aren't ready to attack a small ship (as they have enough dps and can take out drones before they die). In FW they have a large place. Wardecs they have a large place as well. If you want to test the waters with them without giving up your current arrangements, try ninja salavaging them take out your AF to take on a badass pve bs. It should be a good learning experience ;) -------------------------------------------------
Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.03.16 19:42:00 -
[5]
Think of AFs as beefed up combat frigates, thats what they are. They basically fill the same roles as t1 combat frigates, they just do it better.
Keep in mind the performance increase is not linear with price increase.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.16 19:50:00 -
[6]
AFs are OK if you want some very mobile fleets with OK dps. They are fairly fragile to anything bigger then them, but in a pack they can do some harm. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Ezekeil Rage
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Posted - 2011.03.16 19:55:00 -
[7]
Thanks for the replies guys.
@Karl
I may just end up doing that when I beef up my wallet a bit more. Buy a hawk and go out ninja salvaging in something else to see if anyone decides to take umbrage at it.
@Lilith
What exactly would you say the role of the combat frigate is? Tackling? Taking out drones? I really have very little experience with seeing frigates used outside of L1 missions, and practice ops with corps mates for learning purposes. ------------------------------------------------------ Shadow-war - you should click this link |
Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.03.16 20:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs They are fairly fragile to anything bigger then them
My dual mse heavy tackle jag would have some unkind words to say about that but then again to be fair the jaguar is the head and shoulders standout of the af crowd. I'm sure a few vengence pilots would agree too.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Paikis
Red Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.16 20:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs They are fairly fragile to anything bigger then them
My dual mse heavy tackle jag would have some unkind words to say about that but then again to be fair the jaguar is the head and shoulders standout of the af crowd. I'm sure a few vengence pilots would agree too.
So many people still using the same old tired ships. I think you'll find that the Hawk and Harpy are just fine. Also, I wouldn't say that the Jaguar is 'head and shoulders standout'. It's good, but it's only better by defualt for those people stuck in the 'minmatar is god' mindset.
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Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.16 20:45:00 -
[10]
BOth Hawk and Harpy are great With both you have to think bit more but they are great if flown properly. I would advice to train AF interceptors and Stealth bombers as well if you like frigates.
They are all used for something else against different target groups and with the Stealth bombers you can even rat to make isks fairly well without ever needing to step outside of frigate hull if you do not want to.
MWD mandatory is by the way obsolete and sometimes counter productive in frigate hulls. You will hear it a lot though. Interceptors are obvious exception to this :D Pod |
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.03.16 20:46:00 -
[11]
AF's are the fat ugly chicks from teen-movies. They are there solely to prop up the ego's of the beautiful/fabulous people.
They are that which all other ships can point to and say "at least I am not an AF!".
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2011.03.16 21:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida They are that which all other ships can point to and say "at least I am not an AF!".
Electronic Attack Frigates would like to have a word with you...
- "When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed." - CCP Big Dumb Object |
Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.03.16 21:52:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Tony SoXai on 16/03/2011 21:53:17 They don't really have a role fleet-wise.
Mainly they are built to be small and mobile while dealing good damage and having a decent tank. In a fleet environment they aren't particularly useful because as has been said, a cruiser will straight up outperform it at ehp/dps, and T1 frigs tackle just as well, while Inties tackle far better.
I disagree with not being able to use an afterburner on them however. Afterburner AFs excel at pvp and by far outperform an MWD fit.
TBH, AFs are mainly good for the solo player. They ninja pve very well, can go decently fast for 0.0, and can tear apart those stupid Taranises you see all the time. They are customizable Han Solo failboats. Heh, a guy I knew once used to use his Hawk to transport all kinda things through 0.0 because it "has good cargo space."
TLDR: AFs don't perform a fleet role very well. But are very strong combat frigates capable of taking out far more targets than Inties or EAFs could ever hope to.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.16 21:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs They are fairly fragile to anything bigger then them
My dual mse heavy tackle jag would have some unkind words to say about that but then again to be fair the jaguar is the head and shoulders standout of the af crowd. I'm sure a few vengence pilots would agree too.
Well, if they catch anything alone, yes.
Against the focused fire of two or three cruisers they kinda melt quickly. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2011.03.16 21:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs They are fairly fragile to anything bigger then them
My dual mse heavy tackle jag would have some unkind words to say about that but then again to be fair the jaguar is the head and shoulders standout of the af crowd. I'm sure a few vengence pilots would agree too.
Well, if they catch anything alone, yes.
Against the focused fire of two or three cruisers they kinda melt quickly.
Your mighty cruiser will also melt under the fire of two or three cruisers
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.03.17 01:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs They are fairly fragile to anything bigger then them
My dual mse heavy tackle jag would have some unkind words to say about that but then again to be fair the jaguar is the head and shoulders standout of the af crowd. I'm sure a few vengence pilots would agree too.
Well, if they catch anything alone, yes.
Against the focused fire of two or three cruisers they kinda melt quickly.
Depends on whats shooting you of course but I will agree in spirit. But thats not the point. The point is that it won't melt kinda quickly under the low transversal guns of a fleeing hurricane before his mwd gets shut down so he can get gang reaped.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Xuthi
Minmatar EAT THE POOR
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Posted - 2011.03.17 01:35:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Xuthi on 17/03/2011 01:37:02 Been flying AF's alot lately and theyre great fun, dont understand the hate. great for soloing around in low sec. T1 cruisers might have better ehp/dps, but you still cant blindly roam around low sec in one without getting snagged by a gate camp. AFs are much better for solo unscouted roaming.
Don't know about 0.0 , talking purely low sec where I think AF's are fine and seem very very popular.
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente Halinallen veroparatiisi Inglorious Carebears
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Posted - 2011.03.17 07:15:00 -
[18]
Popular in low sec solo. I personally prefer them over cruisers/bc's in lowsec due to the mobility. You can pretty much choose your fights and gtfo if needed. Also travelling in lowsec isn't an issue unless someone is paying attention and boosted like a nutter. I've had no issues getting through lowsec gatecamps. The single most dangerous opponent is probably the dramiel. Unless someone actually drops on you. Dramiels have enough speed to catch you from 100km if you make even a single mistake. I've had situations where I was in warp and the dramiel was already in range (point at least, perhaps even scram), but it didn't have time to lock. I wasn't aligned, but just made it. Scaryfast ship that is...
Originally by: CCP Shadow Dr. Sheepbringer -- It's not that kind of horn.
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King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.03.17 08:38:00 -
[19]
Frigate hulls in general are principally pvp tools. They are used for tackle for heavier ships and in some cases, dps itself. For the tackle role, inties are often preferable due to higher speed and lower sig radius but the tougher AF's (often with more midslots for EW) are also very capable. Jaguars in particular are very good at getting a hard tackle on something (scram + web).
In the all frigate gangs, AF's are the muscle. The frigate mob is pretty popular in low sec and parts of null sec. They can escape virtually anything they don't want to fight and even the slowest of them can tackle most targets. You will find yourself blobbing most targets however as the 125 dps from a typical frigate hull isn't going to kill much. So you'll end up with a lot of 20 vs 3 fights and the likes. Some of the most amusing fights I've had are when a 15-20 man frigate gang collided with a similar gang. You end up with a whirling fight of 10 or so separate 1v1, 2v1's and so on. It's a beautiful chaos.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2011.03.17 14:41:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 17/03/2011 14:45:11 I think the most recent posters are not very fair to the OP, and they should be more clear about that what they propose are mere gimmicks. Any ship can do alright in 10:1 numbers, it says nothing about the ships or their class at all. Running around looking for ganks or semi-arranged fights (running around lowsec without ever being able to tank gate guns, would limit your ability to play agressively and your target pool into the obscure). It's like suggesting Battlehaulers for the role because it's fun and can be done.
If we, for sake of discussion, look beyond the shortcomming of the ships themselves... AF's, and EAF, share issues with concept, scaling and intergration. You have one frigate with tanking and damage bonuses and you have one frigate with electronic warfare bonuses. There are no frigates with logistics bonuses, to keep flimsy EAF up even if they fly to mitigate some damage, or to revitalize the AF tanking bonuses. Frigates as a concept are all built around signature and mobility for defensive purposes. Interceptors with their speed and sig-tanking bonuses make them more difficult to kill as such. They 'tank' more than the tanky frigate. The AF that do function to some degree are generally those with inherent speed bonuses and a good slot allocation, that allow them to fly as Interceptors (ie., the Wolf in an Interceptor role hardly stand out thanks to tanking or damage bonuses).
The same goes in terms of scaling, the bonuses hardly come into effect. Not only do they lack frigate-sized logistics support, but they also lack the scaling to ever make such a ship truly useful. Recons are also fairly flimsy ships within their size, but scaling allow them a reasonable buffer while maintaining their electronic warfare role. An EAF is much more flimsy to a Cruiser than a Recon is to a Battleship. The final issue is that of intergration. The frigates that have an easier time finding a role and purpose (bombers and interceptors) do so by intergrating well with respective ships and gangs of other sizes. A Stealth bomber contribute something to a group of recons. An Interceptor (and by relation, Interdictor) contribute something that stands out within a fast Cruiser gang. The way an AF scale they do not have the relation to a fast HAC or Recon that a Bomber has to a Recon.
As an AF your mobility, to tackle, to tank, to damage ratio is far too poor relative to a Vagabond, for you to contribute in such a gang.
You can poke at either issue to find a solution for these ships, but they do need something to qualify for anything else than sheer lolz and fun.
Considering CCP renegged on the planned AB bonuses, i favour moving the AF concept up to destroyer size and merging EAF with Covops these days. Dull, but functional.
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.03.17 15:13:00 -
[21]
Edited by: NinjaSpud on 17/03/2011 15:15:31 I've only ever seen 1 situation where AF's are effective. And that's in 0.0 sec roams. They're useless in low sec, due to gate guns, and high sec has too much of a supply of wtf doul web'd bc's that wouldn't last a day in null.
Typically, a group of 10-15 AF's and Intys start out from a single base and 'patroll' their boarders looking for targets. Granted they can't put out the DPS or tank a cruiser can, but they are far more mobile. They align and warp faster, and have a better speed tank. I don't think I've ever fit anything then a nano/buffer/dps on an AF, as it's kinda pointless. Their speed and numbers keep them alive. Now, elarlier it was said that 10vs1 with any ship is gonna be a obviouse win for the group of 10. So why not just roam in battleships? Maneuverability. AF's have the ability to GTFO fast. Hit and run is the only tactic an AF can do.
And they're effective at what they do, last time I went roaming in an AF gang, we took out several battleships and a few cruisers with hardly losing a single ship.
I see AF's and inty's as almost identical...both are paper thin, granted, the inty goes faster and has more tackle abilities. But if you really tweek the DPS I think you can get a little more out of an AF. A DPS fit AF can really pack a punch. Really an AF fleets life will depend on a good FC. You need to be able to chose your targets. You can't engage anything with good tracking, you need to hit large targets and know when to GTFO.
and for the price, AF's arn't bad. I bought a retribution last night for just 12 mill
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2011.03.17 15:31:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 17/03/2011 15:33:50
Ninjaspud, you do realize the difference between an old school nano gang or a recon gang to friglolz is that they can actually fight anything up to their own numbers and well above that yeah? While your bunch of frigates can hardly even score kills at 5:1 numerical advantage (provided there is more than one or two targets, and they're not two lone BS who have appeared in your defensive perimeter for some highly unlikely reason). All you do is gank.
As far as AF go they are probably half useful in size limited plexes, epic arcs and possibly in FW (depending on the current state of the FW region, but FW is by and in itself fairly pre-arranged ).
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.03.17 16:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Noisrevbus Edited by: Noisrevbus on 17/03/2011 15:33:50
Ninjaspud, you do realize the difference between an old school nano gang or a recon gang to friglolz is that they can actually fight anything up to their own numbers and well above that yeah? While your bunch of frigates can hardly even score kills at 5:1 numerical advantage (provided there is more than one or two targets, and they're not two lone BS who have appeared in your defensive perimeter for some highly unlikely reason). All you do is gank.
I never said they where the best, the OP asked what Af's where used for and I was simply telling him what I've seen. The only time I've flown AF's is in these types of raids.
I should have been a little more clear. 1st, the ships we found where not on our border, we where deep into enemy territory on that raom. Our goal was to go in and die a firery, burning death (hince the use of AF's) but it turned out to be a win. I agree that a nano gang of cruisers/hac's/bc's can do some seriouse damage. You're right in saying that they can fight up to their own numbers and above, no disagreements here.
Keep in mind, i'm thinking null sec alliance wars. If you're pushing your way into enemy territory, and want to see what kind of cheese he can field (and be an overall nusance), woudn't it be better to send in a group of easliy replaceable, can still -pack-a-punch- cheap frigs first? Ganking is the point. Do as much expensive damage as you can while losing as little as possible.
When I roam in 0.0, I use AF's and cruisers. Cuase I know they're probably not coming back.
When we roll in on a fleet wide CTA and fleet ops, then I use my HAC.
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bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.17 16:03:00 -
[24]
for ship spinning in stations the made out of winsauce tbh.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.03.17 18:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Noisrevbus Interceptors "tank" more than the tanky frigate.
Nope. It doesn't matter how much faster the Inty is, once a frigate with an afterburner is orbiting something at close range you will not hit it with medium guns and up, no matter if it's an Ishkur or a Taranis. And if there's something else shooting at it from farther away (with less problematic tracking), the "tankier" one will indeed have the upper hand.
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2011.03.17 18:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: NinjaSpud
I should have been a little more clear. 1st, the ships we found where not on our border, we where deep into enemy territory on that raom. Our goal was to go in and die a firery, burning death (hince the use of AF's) but it turned out to be a win. I agree that a nano gang of cruisers/hac's/bc's can do some seriouse damage. You're right in saying that they can fight up to their own numbers and above, no disagreements here.
Good, then we are on the same page again.
I have no quarrel with how other people percieve fun in this game, do whatever please you, as long as you concede that it's a gimmick .
As far as making the ships useful and give someone else advice or encouragement though, i've said my peace. I'll ignore the "AB is win for 1v1" troll .
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equincu ocha
Sinners.
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Posted - 2011.03.17 19:09:00 -
[27]
Assault frig's are a lot of fun to fly, don't listen to the people that say otherwise. Just keep in mind that they are still frigate hulls, and with that they can be very unforgiving, but once you get used to they way they fly you will love them, I think most people that say they are worthless just expect them to be as easy to fly as a hac, thats just not the case.
Also, just because you can't tank sentries doesn't mean the ship won't work in lowsec, all that means is you can't gank haulers on gates
Then again I live in lowsec and fly solo or in small gangs, so it may be different in 0.0 or highsec, and probly doesn't matter much in blobs
Pirates are mythical creatures, just like unicorns, bigfoot, and kangaroos |
Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.03.17 19:46:00 -
[28]
Originally by: equincu ocha Also, just because you can't tank sentries doesn't mean the ship won't work in lowsec, all that means is you can't gank haulers on gates
Actually the jag has been used as a fast tackle for rring pirate gangs for ages. Fit for max omni buffer with a long point and you can catch pretty much anything past frigs.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Ezekeil Rage
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Posted - 2011.03.17 20:36:00 -
[29]
So, if I was to think about, completely hypothetical, moving to lo-sec and using a hawk or other AF for solo roaming/pirating I may find that one of the better applications of the ship type? With the caveat of course of making sure I pick proper targets, and recognize the fairly fragile reality of the frigate based boats.
When I work up a bit more funding padding, I'll start beefing up on my understanding of criminal mechanics and look into this playstyle then - because the truth is, I really enjoy flying the fast, speedy boats more than the slow bruisers. ------------------------------------------------------ Shadow-war - you should click this link |
Xuthi
Minmatar EAT THE POOR
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Posted - 2011.03.17 20:55:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Xuthi on 17/03/2011 20:57:05 Edited by: Xuthi on 17/03/2011 20:55:27
Originally by: Ezekeil Rage So, if I was to think about, completely hypothetical, moving to lo-sec and using a hawk or other AF for solo roaming/pirating I may find that one of the better applications of the ship type? With the caveat of course of making sure I pick proper targets, and recognize the fairly fragile reality of the frigate based boats.
When I work up a bit more funding padding, I'll start beefing up on my understanding of criminal mechanics and look into this playstyle then - because the truth is, I really enjoy flying the fast, speedy boats more than the slow bruisers.
Yes, totally. AFs are great for that imo. great for zipping around low sec in. Small and fast enough to get past gate camps. You'll no doubt stumble across plenty of other frig pilots doing the same, especially in the FW area's. Even better as an outlaw as people can engage you on gates. ignore all these "AF are worthless" - they may well be in 100 man null sec blobs but for what you want theyre fine for low sec, very fun, cheapish, fast and quite popular.
might be worth taking out some tech1 frigs like a rifter first just to get used to it if youve never pvped before, will be cheaper to loose.
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