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Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
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Posted - 2011.08.12 19:46:00 -
[91]
Huh, guess it's a good thing I didn't invest in it.
Remember - legitimate businesses that aren't scams not only need to pay interest on loans/investments - but they also need to pay themselves too.
The problem is not that it's impossible to do this. The problem is WHY would they do it, instead of providing a more modest interest rate and pocketing the extra profits themselves?
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Originally by: Dr Fighter
"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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trance atlas
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Posted - 2011.08.12 19:51:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
we like to keep our own house clean but what happens out on the street is not our business (and should stay on the street)
Who is "we?" Who are you speaking for? Do you imagine there is some MD clique that you are part of? If this is true, who else is in it? And do you think that clique has presented an effective check on scammers in MD? I think history would argue otherwise.
he has power of attorney for jerry brock liberty and cosmo afaik
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.12 21:08:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 12/08/2011 21:09:02
meh
the reality is that most ponzi scheems spend the money as they go. odds are they just took the money out as they needed it. a billion here, a billion there and eventualy it all goes away.
the reality also is that untill CCP provides real time auditing services then anything going on is bascialy a scam to one degree or another.
.End of line.
If your too paranoid to play EvE. . .
...then your not paranoid enough to play EvE
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Hailey Sunweaver
Minmatar
Murientor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.12 21:20:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Hailey Sunweaver on 12/08/2011 21:21:06
Originally by: the xinc
Edited by: the xinc on 21/03/2011 07:15:17
they have paid ME back more than I put in so far so yeah I'M not complaining :)
though in saying that before trying it out i thought it was a scam as well lol
I wonder if this guy and the others like him are all smiles today. I thought about investing but came to realize that most of the "banks" and "investment firms" are just a scam anways. We see this this time and time again and ppl don't learn. Hopefully this will teach ppl that there is no such thing as free isk. To those who got all thier money out good job you got lucky.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.08.12 22:53:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If THEY created 1 of the 10000 obvious scam MD threads then it'd be different, but they didn't so all we got was people dissing unknowing others based on no proof.
Which is very poor.
Still sticking to your guns - criticizing an obvious scam is, to you, "very poor."
People say your audits are good. I don't know how this is possible, but people who have actually worked with you and seem clever say it, so I'll believe it. So VV, the auditor, seems to be an effective check on scammers.
But VV, the forum personality, has been, and remains, a friend of scammers.
Don't say crap. People say my audits are good because I check what's tangible not the "obvious" made up rumors.
Also to say I am friend to scammers is as solid as saying something is an obvious scam, when the only solid (hopefully) thing you had in your hands was your wily.
I just happen to not believe in them, not believe in what you say and not believe in says and rumors and stick to what can be tested.
This can and will mean I won't take prejudicial positions against people my gut feelings tell me they are to steal, but I am for the "innocent until proven guilty" way, which I admit is very unpopular outside the courts.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.12 23:19:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Also to say I am friend to scammers is as solid as saying something is an obvious scam, when the only solid (hopefully) thing you had in your hands was your wily.
I just happen to not believe in them, not believe in what you say and not believe in says and rumors and stick to what can be tested.
This can and will mean I won't take prejudicial positions against people my gut feelings tell me they are to steal, but I am for the "innocent until proven guilty" way, which I admit is very unpopular outside the courts.
A cynical person would say you have an interest in there being more scams and scam victims, as that gives you more business.
I choose to think you are just very confused, and don't think very hard. Phaser inc was as obvious as scams get.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.08.12 23:28:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Also to say I am friend to scammers is as solid as saying something is an obvious scam, when the only solid (hopefully) thing you had in your hands was your wily.
I just happen to not believe in them, not believe in what you say and not believe in says and rumors and stick to what can be tested.
This can and will mean I won't take prejudicial positions against people my gut feelings tell me they are to steal, but I am for the "innocent until proven guilty" way, which I admit is very unpopular outside the courts.
A cynical person would say you have an interest in there being more scams and scam victims, as that gives you more business.
I choose to think you are just very confused, and don't think very hard. Phaser inc was as obvious as scams get.
I won't get any business because since I am to leave EvE. Actually the tangible expense in domain name and website and possibly in its coding is a point in disfavor of such venture being a scam. If they didn't scam today you would not be here making statements. Sadly EvE statistically attracts the ***** of humanity so indeed financial (and not just those) initiatives usually tend to be scams.
But then, by your parameters, 95% of the MD offerings are obvious scams and then we throw the baby with the wash water.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.12 23:34:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 12/08/2011 23:34:53
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
But then, by your parameters, 95% of the MD offerings are obvious scams and then we throw the baby with the wash water.
95% of the MD offerings rely on Jita spam to get business, and offer 5% weekly interest?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.08.13 00:29:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 12/08/2011 23:34:53
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
But then, by your parameters, 95% of the MD offerings are obvious scams and then we throw the baby with the wash water.
95% of the MD offerings rely on Jita spam to get business, and offer 5% weekly interest?
Instead of 5% on 50M off hundreds hobbyst investors, 95% of MD offerings reply on MD spam (and "rep") to get business and ask for 1-10B out of the blues, with even less guarantees (how many buy a domain + website? How many are posted by 1M SP alts?) to ever see a nickel back.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.13 00:32:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 12/08/2011 23:34:53
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
But then, by your parameters, 95% of the MD offerings are obvious scams and then we throw the baby with the wash water.
95% of the MD offerings rely on Jita spam to get business, and offer 5% weekly interest?
Instead of 5% on 50M off hundreds hobbyst investors, 95% of MD offerings reply on MD spam (and "rep") to get business and ask for 1-10B out of the blues, with even less guarantees (how many buy a domain + website? How many are posted by 1M SP alts?) to ever see a nickel back.
I strongly doubt your "95%" number, but yes, all those things you describe above are indications of risk. God forbid someone point that out though!
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Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2011.08.13 01:04:00 -
[101]
It's been a while since I posted in regards to investing here. I took a break from it a while back and have enjoyed the hiatus :) But I felt this thread was worth chiming in on:
There's a reason that many of us always say that an Audit is important. There's a reason why many of us will tell you never to invest in anything without collateral backing it that's under 7 or 8%... some will go as low as 6 but I honestly think that's just dumb. There's a reason why most vets of MD will tell you that investing in a bank, any bank, in this game is a totally stupid move.
I detest scamming of any kind but I have to admit I smiled and got a bit of a chuckle when I heard about this one turning out to be a Ponzi.
All I can say is:
"We told you so.... many many many times"
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Mychale Amkalai
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Posted - 2011.08.15 22:03:00 -
[102]
Bumping on purpose so others can see and learn.
I note how one of the founders of Phazer makes the claim that CCP supports and encourages such scams. I beg to differ - there are no provisions in Eve's code for banks. It would seem they maybe plan to do so (hence the NPC banks one sees that are actually no different than any other NPC corp) but, for the nonce anyway, there is not one bit of code that manages, controls or sets up any bank of any kind in Eve. It is certainly true that there is no code that prevents it either. This means that anyone can start a corp, call it a bank, and start doing banking activities. So this part of the claim (we do it because CCP allows it) is completely true.
However, since there is no code concerning banks, that means there is no oversight. There is absolutely nothing that prevents anyone from creating a bank nor is there anything to keep the bank honest. There are some who would have you believe this means CCP supports scams since they don't have code to prevent it from happening. I've searched and searched and am completely unable to find any CCP employee saying this. I've asked CCP directly and the most cogent answer was "there is no code within Eve that has anything to do with banking. <the person responding> cannot say whether or not such code will be present in future versions or updates." So how about we lay to rest the scammer's excuse that it's allowed.
Note that since there is no code concerning banking, and thus anyone can start a "bank" this means honest people who have every intention of running a bank correctly and honestly are free to do so. It would seem no one ever has though and there is no mechanism to force the "bankers" to play by any rules.
When you, the player, go into a mission you know the parameters you AND the NPCs have to work within (even level 5 missions, as hairy as they are, are doable - there are no magic NPC enemies that do 100k damage in one shot). When you search the market for something you KNOW the transaction will complete without a hitch according to the numbers you see (this says nothing about whether the trade is a good one). When you go into the Contracts you KNOW that if you accept the contract you WILL pay X for some item(s) (or whatever the actual terms are and, again, it's up to you the player to determine if this is a good trade). There is code in place to guarantee that the mechanics of the mission, the market, the contracts work as they are supposed to thus you can trust these avenues to not be a scam. Of course there are scam-y contracts; read them carefully, be sure that what is advertised matches what is claimed. There is no code in place to guarantee anything at all about the so-called "banks."
Until there is such code in place the prudent player should assume that any such "bank" is just a scam, that anything the scammers say in their defense is no different than a RL criminal trying to get someone to believe his lies, half-truths and semantic games so he can walk away laughing.
I would say that Eve is chock-full of scammers but, really, I have yet to play ANY online game that doesn't have it's share of scammers of some type. Eve is certainly not unique in that regard. I will say, though, that every MMO scammer I've every run into uses the same progression of excuses starting with "the game allows it." That is nothing but semantics.
Bottom line: caveat emptor which is Latin for "let the buyer beware." Since it's Latin that means that even 2,000+ years ago, and longer, scammers have been out looking for victims. Have some sense and you won't be one.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.16 05:22:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Mychale Amkalai
I would say that Eve is chock-full of scammers but, really, I have yet to play ANY online game that doesn't have it's share of scammers of some type. Eve is certainly not unique in that regard. I will say, though, that every MMO scammer I've every run into uses the same progression of excuses starting with "the game allows it." That is nothing but semantics.
It's far more than semantics. It's accurate. Bad Bobby still posts here. Ergo, Bad Bobby (Titans4u) is not banned. After Titans4U, you don't think he got petitioned a few times? But he's still here, he still has his isk. Unlike other games, in EVE, scamming is explicitly allowed. Ask a GM if scamming is allowed if you doubt me. It is. And as it's part of the rules, when scammers say it's part of the game, they are 100% correct.
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Tasko Pal
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.08.16 07:42:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Mychale Amkalai
I would say that Eve is chock-full of scammers but, really, I have yet to play ANY online game that doesn't have it's share of scammers of some type. Eve is certainly not unique in that regard. I will say, though, that every MMO scammer I've every run into uses the same progression of excuses starting with "the game allows it." That is nothing but semantics.
It's far more than semantics. It's accurate. Bad Bobby still posts here. Ergo, Bad Bobby (Titans4u) is not banned. After Titans4U, you don't think he got petitioned a few times? But he's still here, he still has his isk. Unlike other games, in EVE, scamming is explicitly allowed. Ask a GM if scamming is allowed if you doubt me. It is. And as it's part of the rules, when scammers say it's part of the game, they are 100% correct.
And a GM sheds a single perfect tear every time CCP gets free publicity from a big scam.
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Carli Zandrya
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.08.22 14:45:00 -
[105]
It's safe to say
DO NOT TRUST ANYONE - ESPECIALLY IN EVE.
They will laugh all the way to the bank. These morons have just confirmed what most people already know - that EvE has more cutthroats, cheaters, idiots, trolls, and scammers than anyone else and generally brings out the worst in people. Yeah. Lovely game.
Or maybe it's just the stupid players that keep coming back for more.
---------------------------------------------
Take a stand or fall for anything.
EvE is no longer wife, it is now sleazy mistress. |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.22 17:00:00 -
[106]
I've always argued for more accountability laws to be put in place, but nobody ever listens :)
The argument is that there cannot be a criminal justice system when their isn't a reliable deterrent like a jail sentence that will keep players from violating the laws (the big ones, not the concord ones) But, actually we do. Banning. Like putting a person in jail in RL, it removes them from society and reduces their freedom. Make SEC violations, bannable offenses of the CEOs of any 'licensed' bank, then people will start trusting the system, if they know that if their bank ends up pulling a Madoff, then madoff and all the directors of the corp get banned for a time.
--Vherokior Arms Dealer Extraordinaire
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.22 18:05:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I want to kill eve
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Shadowspirit
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Posted - 2011.08.25 02:36:00 -
[108]
Curious... has CCP said anything about this? This is the first post i've checked and I really hate scanning forums. Main reason I am asking is they have not long ago by the introduction of the "item mall" created a real world value and attached it to ISK. A scam like this on fake money is just people falling for something and being stupid, but when it has a real world value attached to it that falls more in line with real LEGAL ramifications that can be cast upon CCP if they fail to fix the problem. Not to mention against the scammers themselves depending where they reside.
On top of that it's bad press and shows a bad image of CCP if they turn a blind eye to it. Not to mention they OPENLY admitted to a correlation between their accounts and players active eve accounts stating they "could" have accessed players accounts which not only shows a serious security risk, but opens up another legal issue altogether.
I'd completely recommend anyone that has lost major investment here to not only contact a lawyer but utilize that lawyer to put pressure on CCP to release the personal information attached to the accounts involved in the scam allowing legal action to be taken against them. This type of situation would help define how companies handle scams of this magnitude in the future.
While I have never trusted anyone so never given to any "investment group" I can't but I can assure you if I dropped 1bil + isk into it I would look into it what can it hurt? A free consultation with a lawyer? Just some food for thought.
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Tekota
The Freighter Factory
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Posted - 2011.08.25 03:10:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Shadowspirit
Curious... has CCP said anything about this? This is the first post i've checked and I really hate scanning forums. Main reason I am asking is they have not long ago by the introduction of the "item mall" created a real world value and attached it to ISK. A scam like this on fake money is just people falling for something and being stupid, but when it has a real world value attached to it that falls more in line with real LEGAL ramifications that can be cast upon CCP if they fail to fix the problem. Not to mention against the scammers themselves depending where they reside.
On top of that it's bad press and shows a bad image of CCP if they turn a blind eye to it. Not to mention they OPENLY admitted to a correlation between their accounts and players active eve accounts stating they "could" have accessed players accounts which not only shows a serious security risk, but opens up another legal issue altogether.
I'd completely recommend anyone that has lost major investment here to not only contact a lawyer but utilize that lawyer to put pressure on CCP to release the personal information attached to the accounts involved in the scam allowing legal action to be taken against them. This type of situation would help define how companies handle scams of this magnitude in the future.
While I have never trusted anyone so never given to any "investment group" I can't but I can assure you if I dropped 1bil + isk into it I would look into it what can it hurt? A free consultation with a lawyer? Just some food for thought.
Oh for the love of god the last thing we need is any more from armchair internet spaceship lawyers. I'm sorry but for the last time, ISK has NO real world value. ISK, your chars, your ships, your monocles and all associated pixels have no value because you can't turn them into dollars, euros, yen, pounds, etc.
IF you believe that ISK has real life value with legal ramifications then before you start trying to sue to get your pixels back then the very first thing you should do is start paying tax on all those space pixels you've been earning. You can't have it both ways.
And for dev confirmation, well for a taster, how about the very latest dev blog - http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2355 which quotes "Capsuleers rarely take time off from flying around in space, pulling the latest, greatest, ever-larger scams, or engaging in massive fleet battles". If you want more, perhaps just read through every communication and press statement CCP have put out over the last few years - because probably half of them mention scamming as being part of the game.
It's not a part of the game I like, I feel a little pity for those who've lost space pixels, but scams are a part of Eve and are valid play styles within the framework and rules CCP provide.
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Ashgoz Kouvo
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Posted - 2011.08.25 11:46:00 -
[110]
Zymurgist encouraging people to scam.
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Shadowspirit
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Posted - 2011.08.25 19:22:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Tekota
Originally by: Shadowspirit
Curious... has CCP said anything about this? This is the first post i've checked and I really hate scanning forums. Main reason I am asking is they have not long ago by the introduction of the "item mall" created a real world value and attached it to ISK. A scam like this on fake money is just people falling for something and being stupid, but when it has a real world value attached to it that falls more in line with real LEGAL ramifications that can be cast upon CCP if they fail to fix the problem. Not to mention against the scammers themselves depending where they reside.
On top of that it's bad press and shows a bad image of CCP if they turn a blind eye to it. Not to mention they OPENLY admitted to a correlation between their accounts and players active eve accounts stating they "could" have accessed players accounts which not only shows a serious security risk, but opens up another legal issue altogether.
I'd completely recommend anyone that has lost major investment here to not only contact a lawyer but utilize that lawyer to put pressure on CCP to release the personal information attached to the accounts involved in the scam allowing legal action to be taken against them. This type of situation would help define how companies handle scams of this magnitude in the future.
While I have never trusted anyone so never given to any "investment group" I can't but I can assure you if I dropped 1bil + isk into it I would look into it what can it hurt? A free consultation with a lawyer? Just some food for thought.
Oh for the love of god the last thing we need is any more from armchair internet spaceship lawyers. I'm sorry but for the last time, ISK has NO real world value. ISK, your chars, your ships, your monocles and all associated pixels have no value because you can't turn them into dollars, euros, yen, pounds, etc.
IF you believe that ISK has real life value with legal ramifications then before you start trying to sue to get your pixels back then the very first thing you should do is start paying tax on all those space pixels you've been earning. You can't have it both ways.
And for dev confirmation, well for a taster, how about the very latest dev blog - http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2355 which quotes "Capsuleers rarely take time off from flying around in space, pulling the latest, greatest, ever-larger scams, or engaging in massive fleet battles". If you want more, perhaps just read through every communication and press statement CCP have put out over the last few years - because probably half of them mention scamming as being part of the game.
It's not a part of the game I like, I feel a little pity for those who've lost space pixels, but scams are a part of Eve and are valid play styles within the framework and rules CCP provide.
ISK = Plex, Plex = Game time, Game time = real world value. People can in fact make "money" by playing eve plex is equal to real world 14.95$ US anyone with half a brain can make the connection and I can assure you judges have made decisions based on far less. Like I said it doesn't hurt those effected to try.
It's not that difficult to make ISK in the game but those that are so lazy they come up with scams just to steal from others so they don't actually have to earn it just makes the game lose in the end. The fact that there is a statement where a member of CCP even states something on scamming just shows eve is going in the wrong direction. I'd like to see the server pop increase not shrink personally. There is plenty of "shady" pirate like behavior to be had, but conning people should not be one of them.
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Carcosa Hali
True Slave Foundations
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Posted - 2011.08.26 00:46:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Shadowspirit
stuff.
I think you should do this. Please let us know how it turns out.
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Within Sansha
Outside. |
Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.26 07:36:00 -
[113]
Still rumbling on and still failing to provide any proof of their extraordinary claims of success.
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Barakach
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Posted - 2011.08.27 00:50:00 -
[114]
"ISK = Plex, Plex = Game time, Game time = real world value. People can in fact make "money" by playing eve plex is equal to real world 14.95$ US anyone with half a brain can make the connection and I can assure you judges have made decisions based on far less. Like I said it doesn't hurt those effected to try. "
"Game time = real world value" is not the same has "Game time = real world money"
If this was true, the government could tax your in-game earnings and you would have to file any profits.
If it's not tax-able, it's not real.
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