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smacks
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Posted - 2011.03.19 10:52:00 -
[1]
Hi there
Recently been hearing about Phaser Inc. and I am tempted to give it a shot, I am just wondering if anyone else has tried them, heard anything about them. Been playing for 6 years and never invested in any of the banks or suchlike, but I am worth a lot now and I am curious about this one.
:-)
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.19 10:58:00 -
[2]
You could use eve-search or just browse back the first pages and you'd find a thread exactly about Phaser Inc.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Krythas
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Posted - 2011.03.19 10:59:00 -
[3]
Always work on the idea that whatever you invest is gone for good
Also, there tend to be better offers out there
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Florestan Bronstein
Amarr Taishi Combine
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Posted - 2011.03.19 11:00:00 -
[4]
Linkage
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Julius Rigel
Sub-warp Racing Venture
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Posted - 2011.03.19 16:17:00 -
[5]
It's either a scam or a rather sloppily run business. Which one is the scarier option I don't know.
Remember the bank of eve? Good times...
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Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.03.19 19:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Julius Rigel It's either a scam or a rather sloppily run business. Which one is the scarier option I don't know.
Remember the bank of eve? Good times...
A sloppily-run business has no definable difference from a scam, in the long run. Either way, it fails to do what it promised, and people lose their money.
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Julius Rigel
Sub-warp Racing Venture
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Posted - 2011.03.20 06:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Nathan Jameson
Originally by: Julius Rigel It's either a scam or a rather sloppily run business. Which one is the scarier option I don't know.
Remember the bank of eve? Good times...
A sloppily-run business has no definable difference from a scam, in the long run. Either way, it fails to do what it promised, and people lose their money.
True. The only difference is that a well-orchestrated scam shows competence, while an honest, yet failing business shows incompetence.
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the xinc
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Posted - 2011.03.21 06:46:00 -
[8]
paying out good so far (well for me )
http://iforce.co.nz/i/u0jouo04.on1.png
^ link ^
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.21 07:10:00 -
[9]
Like Krythas said... and this goes for any EVE investment... unless you know who the people behind it are and have a good reason to trust them (knowing them IRL would probably be half of a good enough reason, the other half being knowing they're dependable too), then by all means, go ahead, invest... otherwise, consider it a lottery and say goodbye to all the cash you invested the moment you invest it... later, you might be pleasantly surprised, but don't hold your breath.
In other words, unless you have good reasons to believe otherwise ALWAYS assume it's a scam... or, at best, a pyramid scheme. At least you can get some money out of a pyramid scheme if you pull out just before it implodes.
Originally by: the xinc paying out good so far (well for me )
That doesn't really say anything. That's how all pyramid schemes work too (until just before they pop), not just legit businesses. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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the xinc
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Posted - 2011.03.21 07:14:00 -
[10]
Edited by: the xinc on 21/03/2011 07:15:17 they have paid ME back more than I put in so far so yeah I'M not complaining :)
though in saying that before trying it out i thought it was a scam as well lol
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Rasz Lin
Caldari Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
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Posted - 2011.03.21 07:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: the xinc
though in saying that before trying it out i thought it was a scam as well lol
wow people are dense
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RUSROG
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Posted - 2011.06.06 16:24:00 -
[12]
Phaser Inc. is legit - so far invested 50 mill - and they are paying back...
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Brynj Spirum
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Posted - 2011.06.06 17:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: RUSROG Phaser Inc. is legit - so far invested 50 mill - and they are paying back..
Posts like these make me wonder if people have any idea how ponzi scams work.
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.06.06 17:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: RUSROG Phaser Inc. is legit - so far invested 50 mill - and they are paying back...
Allways nice to see someone's first post ever on the forums have such a 'huge impact' on the confidence of other people.
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Zylawy
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Posted - 2011.06.06 18:46:00 -
[15]
I haven't had any issues with them. I have invested a large amount and so far so good.
Just keep in mind that if it fails, its your loss. be ready to write it all off if it comes to that.
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Fred Barbossa
Free Mineral Collective
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Posted - 2011.06.06 21:20:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Brynj Spirum
Originally by: RUSROG Phaser Inc. is legit - so far invested 50 mill - and they are paying back..
Posts like these make me wonder if people have any idea how ponzi scams work.
People like you make me wonder if you know how investing works in this game. Even the legit groups will eventually burn out and steal money. They're all eventually ponzi scams if you want to look at it that way.
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Brynj Spirum
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Posted - 2011.06.06 23:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Fred Barbossa
Originally by: Brynj Spirum
Originally by: RUSROG Phaser Inc. is legit - so far invested 50 mill - and they are paying back..
Posts like these make me wonder if people have any idea how ponzi scams work.
People like you make me wonder if you know how investing works in this game. Even the legit groups will eventually burn out and steal money. They're all eventually ponzi scams if you want to look at it that way.
So according to your 'logic', EVERY SINGLE INVESTMENT in this game is a scam, so I should invest my money anyway. Cause that's just the way it is? That I should expect to lose my money? Not in a 'consider what you invest lost' to protect yourself from over investing, but a 'i may as well just give it to the isk doublers and pray they're dumb enough to actually double it'.
Thing is, investing in eve doesn't work and exactly for the reason you stated. You don't invest in eve. All the well crafted business plans and MD rep grinding doesn't change what it is really. You gamble and hope to get out before the bill comes due.
As for my original point, it had nothing to do with this being a legit deal or not or the current state of eve investments. Just the idea that some anonymous group paid interest on some minuscule amount of loaned cash and therefore they have to be on the up. Funny, the isk doublers work on the same principle... right up until the end.
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Zylawy
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Posted - 2011.06.07 00:59:00 -
[18]
Hes saying that 90% or more (if not all) who take iskto invest will eventually get more isk and would be easier to quit and take the isk.
I have been with Phaser Inc for 6 weeks without a problem.
I guess the best advice for investing is like the lottery.
Know your limit, play within it.
If you invest and get a return, great, just be ready to lose too.
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Mella Elcus
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Posted - 2011.06.07 01:09:00 -
[19]
8/10. Clever self promoting, you sure have lots of alts though.
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Zylawy
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Posted - 2011.06.07 01:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mella Elcus 8/10. Clever self promoting, you sure have lots of alts though.
If you are referring to me, I assure you I only have 1 account. and have no relations to their project other then being an investor.
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Mu-Shi Ai
The Chrysalis Group
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Posted - 2011.06.07 05:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Brynj Spirum So according to your 'logic', EVERY SINGLE INVESTMENT in this game is a scam, so I should invest my money anyway. Cause that's just the way it is? That I should expect to lose my money? Not in a 'consider what you invest lost' to protect yourself from over investing, but a 'i may as well just give it to the isk doublers and pray they're dumb enough to actually double it'.
Thing is, investing in eve doesn't work and exactly for the reason you stated. You don't invest in eve. All the well crafted business plans and MD rep grinding doesn't change what it is really. You gamble and hope to get out before the bill comes due.
As for my original point, it had nothing to do with this being a legit deal or not or the current state of eve investments. Just the idea that some anonymous group paid interest on some minuscule amount of loaned cash and therefore they have to be on the up. Funny, the isk doublers work on the same principle... right up until the end.
This.
Treating investments as though they're all scams just so you won't be disappointed later is not a legitimate investment strategy (not even in EVE). It's a borderline-pathetic coping mechanism.
And the idea that this has become a kind of MD orthodoxy about investing only underscores something I've said before, which is that MD investment appears to be much more about roleplay than actually making ISK. Given the rates we see in most bonds, people tend to make far less back on investments than they would if they just invested the money themselves in activities requiring minimal effort.
I do find it interesting, though, that a group of people with such haphazard ideas about investing ("Always believe it's a scam and be ready to lose the money!") so frequently expect the investees to offer sterling evidence of business acumen.
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Jerry Pepridge
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Posted - 2011.06.07 05:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mu-Shi Ai
This.
Treating investments as though they're all scams just so you won't be disappointed later is not a legitimate investment strategy (not even in EVE). It's a borderline-pathetic coping mechanism.
And the idea that this has become a kind of MD orthodoxy about investing only underscores something I've said before, which is that MD investment appears to be much more about roleplay than actually making ISK. Given the rates we see in most bonds, people tend to make far less back on investments than they would if they just invested the money themselves in activities requiring minimal effort.
I do find it interesting, though, that a group of people with such haphazard ideas about investing ("Always believe it's a scam and be ready to lose the money!") so frequently expect the investees to offer sterling evidence of business acumen.
I do find t interesting that butthurt cellar dwelling spilt drink t-shirt wearing forever calzone nerds such as you continue to post negatively, with nothing but spite for investors/investees.
You strike me as a butthurt alt of someone who lost money in an eve online spaceships bond/ipo. So who was it..... bad bobby?..... riethe?..... Ebank?
/boring
Yours Trolly,
Mr Misty.... |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.07 07:26:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mu-Shi Ai And the idea that this has become a kind of MD orthodoxy about investing only underscores something I've said before, which is that MD investment appears to be much more about roleplay than actually making ISK. Given the rates we see in most bonds, people tend to make far less back on investments than they would if they just invested the money themselves in activities requiring minimal effort.
I do find it interesting, though, that a group of people with such haphazard ideas about investing ("Always believe it's a scam and be ready to lose the money!") so frequently expect the investees to offer sterling evidence of business acumen.
By yours post history and SCC Lounge chat I understand you are new to the game. This is not a bad thing, but you should't:
- pretend to teach investors what to do without yourself providing any records of your investing experience. So far you have yet to leave the "tire kicker" and "ambulance chaser" and "monday quarterback" status.
- pretend to teach EvE players to ignore the First Law: "don't fly what you cannot afford to lose". This also applies to investments, including RL: consider every penny as lost until proven otherwise.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Companion Qube
Minmatar Electron Conservation Inc SRS.
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Posted - 2011.06.07 07:35:00 -
[24]
Nicely done, how many hits has this thread driven to your website. For anyone reading this far down Phaser is a classic ponzi scheme, you might "earn interest" for a little while but you're not likely to get your money back.
...they see me trollin', they hatin' ♥
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Mu-Shi Ai
The Chrysalis Group
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Posted - 2011.06.07 08:05:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai on 07/06/2011 08:07:25
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha By yours post history and SCC Lounge chat I understand you are new to the game.
I'm not new to the game.
Quote: This is not a bad thing, but you should't:
- pretend to teach investors what to do without yourself providing any records of your investing experience. So far you have yet to leave the "tire kicker" and "ambulance chaser" and "monday quarterback" status.
When did I ever attempt to teach MD bond/IPO investors "what to do"? Nobody knows "what to do" with bonds and IPOs.
Quote: - pretend to teach EvE players to ignore the First Law: "don't fly what you cannot afford to lose". This also applies to investments, including RL: consider every penny as lost until proven otherwise.
If you do invest, you should be ready to risk the money, but if you're going into an investment already figuring the money's lost, that's just stupidity.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.07 09:03:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mu-Shi Ai Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai on 07/06/2011 08:07:25
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha By yours post history and SCC Lounge chat I understand you are new to the game.
I'm not new to the game.
This makes things worse.
Originally by: Mu-Shi Ai
When did I ever attempt to teach MD bond/IPO investors "what to do"? Nobody knows "what to do" with bonds and IPOs.
Nobody? I invested in all fully collateralized investments where I held collateral myself. Others invested in fully collateralized investments where I held collateral myself (notice the difference). I also invested in 1 uncollateralzed investment with money previously paid to me by the same investee as fee so it's a free ride. Flakeys did similar or better. Taram Caldar too. And others. Raw23 is another who made more with investments than he lost.
Originally by: Mu-Shi Ai
Quote: - pretend to teach EvE players to ignore the First Law: "don't fly what you cannot afford to lose". This also applies to investments, including RL: consider every penny as lost until proven otherwise.
If you do invest, you should be ready to risk the money, but if you're going into an investment already figuring the money's lost, that's just stupidity.
I suppose this is another case where everyone in EvE get a concept (ie the don't fly what you can't afford to lose) in a way, while you get it in a different way. They do NOT figure money is lost, they just mark it in their books as money that can be sacrificed.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Emma d'Acques
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Posted - 2011.06.07 09:38:00 -
[27]
I invested a small amount into Phaser, just for sh*ts and giggles, with the option to re-invest. Before that, I chose weekly payouts, and those came through.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
They do NOT figure money is lost, they just mark it in their books as money that can be sacrificed.
However, the above snippet is exactly the way I look at this. The amount I invested, 20M ISK, is something I can easily miss, and if Phaser should turn out to be a scan, I'm not going to be butthurt over it.
However, to look at every investment as a scam seems pathetic to me. Making money takes risk, and every Bond/IPO involves risk, no doubt about that. And this risk is as great in EvE as it is in Real Life, I'd say even greater.
But, I'm diverging from the topic at hand here.
Is Phaser a scam? I have no idea, and don't actually care, as I've already written off my small investment anyway. I guess only time will tell if Phaser turns out to be a scam or not.
My 0.02 ISK
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.07 12:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Emma d'Acques
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
They do NOT figure money is lost, they just mark it in their books as money that can be sacrificed.
However, the above snippet is exactly the way I look at this. The amount I invested, 20M ISK, is something I can easily miss, and if Phaser should
I searched for the English word to use for my reply for long minutes. It was exactly "written off", so we thought the same but I just can't recall all those words combos when I need them .
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
McPod
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Posted - 2011.06.07 16:00:00 -
[29]
Edited by: McPod on 07/06/2011 16:00:16 I saw them advertise 5% per week. madoff's ponzi was only 12%/year.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.06.07 22:04:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 07/06/2011 22:05:08
Originally by: Mu-Shi Ai
Originally by: Brynj Spirum So according to your 'logic', EVERY SINGLE INVESTMENT in this game is a scam, so I should invest my money anyway. Cause that's just the way it is? That I should expect to lose my money? Not in a 'consider what you invest lost' to protect yourself from over investing, but a 'i may as well just give it to the isk doublers and pray they're dumb enough to actually double it'.
Thing is, investing in eve doesn't work and exactly for the reason you stated. You don't invest in eve. All the well crafted business plans and MD rep grinding doesn't change what it is really. You gamble and hope to get out before the bill comes due.
As for my original point, it had nothing to do with this being a legit deal or not or the current state of eve investments. Just the idea that some anonymous group paid interest on some minuscule amount of loaned cash and therefore they have to be on the up. Funny, the isk doublers work on the same principle... right up until the end.
This.
Treating investments as though they're all scams just so you won't be disappointed later is not a legitimate investment strategy (not even in EVE). It's a borderline-pathetic coping mechanism.
And the idea that this has become a kind of MD orthodoxy about investing only underscores something I've said before, which is that MD investment appears to be much more about roleplay than actually making ISK. Given the rates we see in most bonds, people tend to make far less back on investments than they would if they just invested the money themselves in activities requiring minimal effort.
I do find it interesting, though, that a group of people with such haphazard ideas about investing ("Always believe it's a scam and be ready to lose the money!") so frequently expect the investees to offer sterling evidence of business acumen.
Yep yep and yep. Although small caveat, I have been since convinced that by investing only in the small scale ventures, which are either roleplay or rep-grinding, can build isk. But given the returns and the effort required, I think it makes more sense there to just shoot red crosses or trade in station.
This forum (or specifically the IPO/bond side of it) is basically for roleplayers who get really really REALLY offended if they get called roleplayers. To explain some of the rage being directed at you.
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Fred Barbossa
Free Mineral Collective
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Posted - 2011.06.08 09:05:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Brynj Spirum
Originally by: Fred Barbossa
Originally by: Brynj Spirum
Originally by: RUSROG Phaser Inc. is legit - so far invested 50 mill - and they are paying back..
Posts like these make me wonder if people have any idea how ponzi scams work.
People like you make me wonder if you know how investing works in this game. Even the legit groups will eventually burn out and steal money. They're all eventually ponzi scams if you want to look at it that way.
So according to your 'logic', EVERY SINGLE INVESTMENT in this game is a scam, so I should invest my money anyway. Cause that's just the way it is? That I should expect to lose my money? Not in a 'consider what you invest lost' to protect yourself from over investing, but a 'i may as well just give it to the isk doublers and pray they're dumb enough to actually double it'.
Your logic not mine. Making payments= ponzi scam and not making payments= scamming right?
Either way you can make money off of ponzi scams and isk doublers if your not butthurt about intentions rather than numbers.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.06.08 11:28:00 -
[32]
The way to make money off a ponzi scam (besides being the one running it) is to be one of the very first investors or to pull your money out successfully before it reveals itself. As for being one of the very first investors, the asymmetry of information makes this unreasonable to be confident about. As for pulling your money out successfully, there is the large risk (nay, liklihood) that the scammer will refuse to hand it back or otherwise reveal the ponzi and show your funds as forfeit before pulling it out. In both cases, there is a sharply negative expectation value.
A far better argument could be made for buying lotto tickets.
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Brynj Spirum
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Posted - 2011.06.08 12:27:00 -
[33]
I'm not sure why you keep trying to read more into my original comments than what I typed, but whatever.
I don't know or particularly care if phaser inc are market wizards or Bernie Madoff wannabes. Someone paid interest on a whole 50 million(!) isk. Start sending your billions now! Naive, really really naive, at best, phaser inc alt at worst.
The rest is my own personal opinion. I am able to manage my isk more than competently at a better rate of return compared to your average MD offering. If you want to invest and can turn a buck, more power to you.
As for the rest of the thread, I'd hope to see a finders fee from phaser inc for all the bumps this is getting.
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Fred Barbossa
Free Mineral Collective
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Posted - 2011.06.08 12:42:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Brynj Spirum
I'm not sure why you keep trying to read more into my original comments than what I typed, but whatever.
I'm waiting for you to see the irony but I fear the realization isn't coming.
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Keeloux Siind
Universal Business Group
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Posted - 2011.07.18 12:11:00 -
[35]
If you search Phaser Inc in EVE you get 2 corporations one might be fake or both are the actual Phaser Inc, anyway, they say they employ a number of traders to support their business strategy, but both corporations combined have 5 members (the largest has 4) and to employ traders out of corp seems too risky with a business like that, however 4 members is just right to manage all the small transactions to keep ponzi scheme running......so that's my call, ponzi scheme, no trades just recycling the investments as interests until the inevitable closing of the corporation. |
Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.07.18 13:50:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Keeloux Siind If you search Phaser Inc in EVE you get 2 corporations one might be fake or both are the actual Phaser Inc, anyway, they say they employ a number of traders to support their business strategy, but both corporations combined have 5 members (the largest has 4) and to employ traders out of corp seems too risky with a business like that, however 4 members is just right to manage all the small transactions to keep ponzi scheme running......so that's my call, ponzi scheme, no trades just recycling the investments as interests until the inevitable closing of the corporation.
This.
After I saw that they only have 4 members, it all sounded fishy.
BUT.. I have to point out, that there ARE legit ways to make money this way without it being a scam or a ponzi scheme. But, in order for people to trust such a company, they have to be a little more open about how they are making their returns, and what industries they are investing in. Also, keep a record of all assets under management on some regular basis. Have a third trusted party audit this, to make sure they actually have the money that they say they do etc.
That all being said, Phaser has done very little to none of this, and basically just has a nice website. If they are legit, then they will have no reservations about revealing their balance sheets to the public.
Now, the reason I say that they very well may be legit, is that 5% is very easy to make in the game. I'm a trader and my trades make at least 10-20% profit, other wise its not worth the effort, so I suppose as long as they keep the number of new investements capped to the limit of what they can still make trading what they do, then they can keep paying out 5%.
The fact that you can pull out your initial investment at anytime is fishy. If this was a real hedge fund, then you would be locked in for a certain percentage for a period of time. This is to keep everyone from withdrawing at once and preventing the fund from making their profit and therefore unable to pay its other investers.
My accessment of them is 'be wary' but perhaps legit. (if the 4 traders have freighters and can do mass orders.
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Kro0k
Gallente Primum Artifex
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:27:00 -
[37]
Two of the people who post links in local are Bots, auto-reject chats and stay on for about 15 hours a day. ****es me off |
Kostolany
Gallente TunDraGon Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.07.18 18:07:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Kostolany on 18/07/2011 18:07:19 No such business is sure. Your risk is to lose your money... but...
... i have invested 15 bn ISK since March and got back over 7 bn interest. Looks fine for me.
Kostolany's Blog Blog |
Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.07.19 10:49:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kostolany Edited by: Kostolany on 18/07/2011 18:07:19 No such business is sure. Your risk is to lose your money... but...
... i have invested 15 bn ISK since March and got back over 7 bn interest. Looks fine for me.
Kostolany's Blog
I'm sure those mortgage backed securities had great returns too before they all collapsed and took the American economy with it.
When it comes down to it, unless they can publish their books and trades or business model, assume it's a ponzi scheme and just pray you are one if the lucky ones to get in and paid first.
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Mikal Morataya
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Posted - 2011.07.20 15:13:00 -
[40]
Just wanted to add my 2 pence. I've invested with Phaser for a few months and they have always paid out. I've grown my investment and in a way wished I had invested more from the start just to get a quicker payback. I am still suspicious its a scam but until they walk away with my isk who knows. Seeing them spam the trade hubs doesn't fill me with massive confidence though.
I do hope they continue to pay out though, if not it wont be the end of the world.
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Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.07.21 05:21:00 -
[41]
As long as people keep joining, any ponzi scheme can continue to pay out. The key is once they stop getting new investments, that's when the whole house comes down, and the only winners will be the people who invested early enough to make back their initial investment in payouts, and Madoff &Co who keeps all the deposits. They lose their reputation, but in eve, that's easy enough, sell your toon (which is likely an alt anyway). No jailtime. It's a perfect crime for an environment like EVE. Perhaps they are funding the war in NC right now? who knows.
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Getix Kain
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Posted - 2011.07.25 18:20:00 -
[42]
As far as I am concerned, I was just checking my balance regarding this investments.
In less than 3 months I received 82.500.000 in payout: it's a couple of week of missions/high sec plexes that I "played" while investing money there.
At the moment, I am more than happy to keep a part of my money into PHASER: it's money that does not make my richer by sitting in my wallet (I am not a trader).
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Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.07.26 02:41:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 26/07/2011 02:43:17
Originally by: Getix Kain As far as I am concerned, I was just checking my balance regarding this investments.
In less than 3 months I received 82.500.000 in payout: it's a couple of week of missions/high sec plexes that I "played" while investing money there.
At the moment, I am more than happy to keep a part of my money into PHASER: it's money that does not make my richer by sitting in my wallet (I am not a trader).
If the 82mil is your 5% profit, then it stands to reason that you have about 140mil deposit with them. So you have made about 60% of your investment back (which means you are currently at 40% loss). When you have made 100%, then you can really start thinking of the money earned as 'profit'.
PPS, if your proceeds are still on account with them (and not in your hands) then you must consider yourself still at 100% loss of initial profit. IE, you must not count any money that you do not have in your hands as profit.
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Rahn Koban
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Posted - 2011.07.26 09:33:00 -
[44]
Dont know if this means anything to anyone but I was travelling the pipes the other day, between Caldari and Minmatar space, and I passed Eddie Lampert piloting a freighter. Perhaps trading?!?! |
Levija Saplina
Supremacy Inc. Not Found.
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Posted - 2011.07.26 14:22:00 -
[45]
The re-investment % should be .5% higher than the payout option %. |
Bill Lane
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Posted - 2011.08.01 05:12:00 -
[46]
I've been with Phaser Inc for I think 15 weeks now. Gotten paid every week, never had a problem pulling money out. I had almost doubled my investment when I pulled out over 1.1 billion ISK a couple days ago, leaving only 10 million in my account. I have every intention of putting money back in as I get it.
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minerelite
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Posted - 2011.08.01 20:08:00 -
[47]
I've invested 50 Million ISK into Phaser Inc and they've always paid up on time and with a fair interest rate, i'm very happy with the service and will probably put more ISK into Phaser Inc
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ShivanScout
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Posted - 2011.08.02 13:33:00 -
[48]
Try doing a withdrawal and see if you get all your money back, most likely they wont even respond to your request :-) Hence, its a scam.
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Mara Villoso
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Posted - 2011.08.02 14:03:00 -
[49]
I love how the Phaser alts keep necro'ing this thread. |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.03 00:24:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 03/08/2011 00:24:55
Originally by: ShivanScout Try doing a withdrawal and see if you get all your money back, most likely they wont even respond to your request :-)
Is that confirmed?
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Derath Ellecon
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Posted - 2011.08.03 00:38:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 03/08/2011 00:24:55
Originally by: ShivanScout Try doing a withdrawal and see if you get all your money back, most likely they wont even respond to your request :-)
Is that confirmed?
I have a friend who pulled his money out fine. I don't think he had all that much in though.
I will say at I have noticed far more spam activity. I used to see Eddie spamming in local several times a day, but now I am seeing both Eddie and mordor spamming local twice as much.
Have to wonder if the two main players spend all day spamming local all over the game universe, when sorbet have time to trade?
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Bill Lane
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Posted - 2011.08.03 01:24:00 -
[52]
Originally by: ShivanScout Try doing a withdrawal and see if you get all your money back, most likely they wont even respond to your request :-) Hence, its a scam.
2 posts above this, I said: "I pulled out over 1.1 billion ISK a couple days ago"
Pretty much means they responded. I have never had a problem with them at all. Never taken more than 12 hours to get my money either.
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Jita Tradedrone
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Posted - 2011.08.04 08:47:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 03/08/2011 00:24:55
Originally by: ShivanScout Try doing a withdrawal and see if you get all your money back, most likely they wont even respond to your request :-)
Is that confirmed?
They are hard to come in contact with if you try to convo them, so that part is true.
However I had no problem withdrawing a large sum (around 1/3rd) of my isk. As promised on the website it was taken care of within 24 hours.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.04 12:14:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 04/08/2011 12:15:45
The CEO spends all his time flying between hubs spamming local, how does he have any time to carry out real business?
Try following him a few jumps, he is obviously using a travel bot, which I've reported. So Investors better pull out your isk before he gets banned.
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Devai Starchild
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.04 12:16:00 -
[55]
It is so very very hard managing trades while travelling. -------------------------------------------
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Khanid Voltar
Night's Dawn Investment Fund
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Posted - 2011.08.04 22:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 04/08/2011 12:15:45
The CEO spends all his time flying between hubs spamming local, how does he have any time to carry out real business?
Implying that you spend all of your time, following him about, spamming him with convo invites.
How do you have any time to actually troll the forums as much as you do? Bearing in mind the sterling efforts you are putting forth into being able to categorically state you know precisely what he is up to at any given time?
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Sindeya Shimaya
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Posted - 2011.08.05 20:08:00 -
[57]
5% weekly you say?
1bn investment. all payouts are paid back into the account. 1 week: 1.05bn 1 month: 1.2bn 1 year: 12.6bn 2 years: well.. a lot.
Ponzi verified!
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Mara Villoso
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Posted - 2011.08.05 20:16:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Mara Villoso on 05/08/2011 20:17:03
Originally by: Wyke Mossari Try following him a few jumps, he is obviously using a travel bot
What's a travel bot? |
Nunchuck Norris
|
Posted - 2011.08.06 20:04:00 -
[59]
i`m just gonna post a link to my post in a C & P section , Phaser Inc related :
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1561299
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Cnaeus Lentulus
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.06 23:57:00 -
[60]
Just adding some fuel for the trolls. I assumed the money lost when I parted with it, but was pleasantly surprised to get it back shortly on request. Even more satisfied to keep getting the interest back. Let's see how long it keeps up :)
My account
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Sansmerci Da'qan
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Posted - 2011.08.11 04:18:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Sansmerci Da''qan on 11/08/2011 04:18:43 If anyone still has concerns about Phaser Inc., check out their interview with XPOD: http://www.expandordie.com/news/archives/10 |
Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2011.08.11 06:43:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Sansmerci Da'qan If anyone still has concerns about Phaser Inc., check out their interview with XPOD: http://www.expandordie.com/news/archives/10
Another interview here: a bit out of date, but might be related.
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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
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Posted - 2011.08.11 23:23:00 -
[63]
According to their website the ponzi scheme has finally been revealed. [ Casino | Loans ] |
Jerry Pepridge
|
Posted - 2011.08.11 23:26:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Edwin Rothbard According to their website the ponzi scheme has finally been revealed.
khanid volatar gets scammed again.
more news at 7 _________________________________________________
Misty McGinnity Doesn't have an iPhone. |
Jerry Pepridge
|
Posted - 2011.08.11 23:42:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Kostolany Edited by: Kostolany on 18/07/2011 18:07:19 No such business is sure. Your risk is to lose your money... but...
... i have invested 15 bn ISK since March and got back over 7 bn interest. Looks fine for me.
Kostolany's Blog
you mad? _________________________________________________
Misty McGinnity Doesn't have an iPhone. |
Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
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Posted - 2011.08.12 00:40:00 -
[66]
This is a shocking turn of events. I, for one, am surprised and outraged.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.12 00:56:00 -
[67]
No one could have predicted!
If VV still posted here, I'd totally be rubbing this in his face. Just like the last scam he thought was a great idea.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.12 01:09:00 -
[68]
Oh I just can't resist:
http://eve-search.com/thread/1449102/page/3#74
On the subject of Phaser Inc, in March:
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Why so negative? They setup their thing, they are already running it (so it's too late), they are not bothering anyone.
Just quoting. Don't mind me. . .
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TomHorn
Caldari Horn and Brothers
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Posted - 2011.08.12 01:16:00 -
[69]
We introduced ourselves as failed PVP players, quitting EVE a couple of years ago. We said we got back in the game to do what we are actually good at; trading. This is only partly correct. We've been in this game since the end of 2004 and really love to play PVP. We are able to do some trading, but that's it.
At the outset Phaser Inc. was setup to make ISK. We have never traded any goods to make ISK. We've used our trading knowledge to answer questions from potential investors with regard to trading, which also worked to our advantage in building confidence.
Who is 'we'? may be the next question. You know Mordor Exuel and Eddie Lampert as the founder and CEO of Phaser Inc. We are actually the only two people who managed Phaser Inc. through its life cycle; no traders, no undisclosed corporations, nothing. That was all made-up to build our story and (again) to gain confidence.
Apart from Mordor Exuel and Eddie Lampert as a part of Phaser Inc., we got some help from outside the corporation. We hired a skilled developer to build and maintain the website. Of course we won't release his/her name to the public. This very person didn't know anything about what we were about to do. Apart from the developer we hired a freelance text writer/editor. Lots of respect to both the developer and our writer/text editor. They have shown some excellent skill and enabled us to make Phaser Inc. into what it became. Both EVE players, nice people to work with, and they earned some ISK along with their participation.
How did we do it?
We have very little skill in the financial arena. Because of that, it took some time to do the calculations on how we would be able to reach our goal. (We'll get to our goal later on in this article.) We setup our financial planning to be able to grow as fast as possible, but with increments that would enable us to efficiently reach our goals; not too fast, not too slow. Both going too slow or too fast would have stopped us too soon. We adapted our advertising to the financial planning. We only advertised in local chatboxes in solar systems. We had several reasons for this method. (One was to stay in control of the amount of attention our services received.)
We slowly increased the amount of ads dropped per day. We intentionally didn't go big on the forums. The forums, market discussions specifically, have always been the place to "bash" any new services. A big drawback to forums is - information stays on forums forever. Every potential investor would read all the negativism. With ads in local, we got some negative responses too, but they disappeared after a very short while. That's how a chatbox works.
Near the end of Phaser Inc. we did as much advertising as possible. We even gave interviews on blogs to maximize our presence. Now that we've reached our goals, we feel it's been enough, and decided to stop where we are. We most likely would have been able to pull out much more ISK than we already did, but enough is enough.
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TomHorn
Caldari Horn and Brothers
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Posted - 2011.08.12 01:19:00 -
[70]
Why did we do it?
We had a lot of reasons actually, but above all there is one thing that's NOT the reason. Most probably we will disappoint a lot of people, even make more than a few a little angry for a while. That, in itself, has never, ever been our purpose. We consider that to be a collateral matter. However, enough about what wasn't the reason for doing it.
The main reason why we did it is; because we could! But, of course, we don't do everything we can. One should imagine that we have a lot of people with an account on Phaserinc.com. That account will be secured with probably the same password as their EVE online accounts. We could have easily run all these accounts through our EVE client and stolen a lot of assets as well as ISK. But we didn't do that, simply because it is illegal - not allowed by the game rules. We don't want to go there.
That brings us to the other reason: What we did is allowed! It's allowed, even encouraged people say, by the game rules as defined by CCP. We find that to be very important. We didn't want to go into any cheating, or illegal area. We wanted to play the game, and beat it in a different way than with PVP. And, there's another reason. Contrary what we made people believe, we are actual PVP players on other accounts. We have been in the game for a while and have our share of killmails (since 2004.) We now wanted to beat the game in another area. Unfortunately for some, that means beating other players at this game.
The last reason we want to mention is: It brings us a lot of ISK, obviously. We don't have to worry about ISK for a very long time, now. No ratting or trading to earn ISK to pay for ships and ammo. Just hunting with our friends. When we founded Phaser Inc. we set ourselves a goal. We wanted to break the trillion border. The total profit of this project was aimed to be over 1 trillion or 1.000.000.000.000 ISK. We already gave away that we've reached that goal. Some financial details are published below.
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TomHorn
Caldari Horn and Brothers
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Posted - 2011.08.12 01:21:00 -
[71]
Edited by: TomHorn on 12/08/2011 01:22:23 What are the numbers?
Even during our active period of Phaser Inc. lots of people were interest in the financial details of Phaser Inc. We've decided to release them to the public here and now so there won't be any guessing anymore. We have several numbers to share.
Lifecycle
We can be quite short about this. Phaser Inc. existed eight months until it'showed its true nature today.
Number of accounts
This is pretty much straightforward; how many people registered on our website for an account. Since we also had corporate accounts, we also show the deviation between personal and corporate accounts. Quite a large share of accounts have no ISK on the balance. We by the way never encouraged the owners of those accounts to deposit. We didn't put any pressure on anyone to invest. We also display the number of active accounts.
Total number of registered accounts: 4252 Registered Personal accounts: 3892 Registered Corporate accounts: 360 Number of active accounts: 3360
Financial numbers
We'd also like to share some financial details. There are all kinds of details we are able to share here, but we will restrict ourselves to posting only the data we see as significant.
ISK invested in Phaser Inc. : 1.831.672.334.372,65 ISK ISK withdrawn from Phaser Inc. : 452.724.496.124,17 ISK Sum of weekly Interest paid : 345.176.303.826,13 ISK Total ISK available at present: 1.033.771.534.422,35 ISK
Final thoughts
Most probably still a few of you are ****ed because of all the ISK that's gone now. Try to look at it another way.
It's been a journey for all of us. Some people trusted us. Others didn't but accepted the risks. Yet, other people were skeptical at first, but became convinced by friends and testimonials (those were all genuine by the way). Everyone has his/her own Phaser Inc. experience. A couple of you withdrew your ISK this week - just in time. Probably some of you were just about to do it, but forgot to send the mail, and are a little too late now; all part of the experience.
The same story applies to ourselves. It's been a lot, really a LOT of work. We fulfilled over 800 withdrawal requests. We answered over 6,000 mails and processed more than 15,000 payouts. Its been an incredible event. And, isn't that beautiful after all? This can only be done in EVE Online. Enjoy this game, it's one of a kind.
We'd like to conclude with the words of CCP : EVE is real! http://www.phaserinc.com
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The Offerer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.12 01:32:00 -
[72]
*gets popcorn* |
Brynj Spirum
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Posted - 2011.08.12 03:11:00 -
[73]
And here I was wondering why it was taking so long for them to cash in. No way could they have a steady enough stream of new, naive investors to keep it going...
1 TRILLION ISK?
Sorry, my mistake
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Valor D'eglise
Gallente Red Cross Of Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.12 03:20:00 -
[74]
And nothing of value was lost.
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Acrior
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Posted - 2011.08.12 04:05:00 -
[75]
multiple station trading alts, economy manipulating? **** that, just make a website, spam the link and bam you get 4000 ******s who give you free ISK
e-bank, phaser inc, I better get my own scam going if I want to join the big guys.
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Jerry Pepridge
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Posted - 2011.08.12 04:06:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Acrior I better get my own scam going if I want to join the big guys.
would like pledge 20b _________________________________________________
Misty McGinnity Doesn't have an iPhone. |
Elise DarkStar
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Posted - 2011.08.12 05:36:00 -
[77]
My scam made TWO trillion!
True story.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.08.12 06:56:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Oh I just can't resist:
http://eve-search.com/thread/1449102/page/3#74
On the subject of Phaser Inc, in March:
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Why so negative? They setup their thing, they are already running it (so it's too late), they are not bothering anyone.
Just quoting. Don't mind me. . .
Let me explain it in terms that even a time wasting tire kicker (the typical EvE forum class B troll) will get.
This had nothing to do with predictions, since the outcome was random at best. There is of course a rich history of scams and Ponzis in EvE but it was (and still is) pointless to talk about this thing.
1) No one had indeed a smidge of proof that it was a Ponzi, nor insider knowledge. Nothing.
At this point all we get are the known "Estel Aradors" never-invest-only-waste-time guys spewing their useless flaming sh!t.
In the eyes of an investor (such me) this is just waste of bandwidth, since all they achieve is to mud the waters at every investment. And we know, call the wolf once, call wolf twice... and then none cares any more.
2) Their plan was active and running. As the quoted sentence says: "so it's too late". So why bother, those who believed in them are screwed already.
3) They indeed did not come on MD to sell their scam, why would MD affect or bother with them? Their selling channels were elsewhere so all you could do was to bad mouth them and achieve... to have wasted time and bandwidth.
In conclusion, by harping on them and bumping them to the first page all MD did was to waste time (as usual) and provide free advertisment to them, and absolutely nothing else.
So, why bother?
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
|
Posted - 2011.08.12 07:04:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 12/08/2011 07:04:33
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Oh I just can't resist:
http://eve-search.com/thread/1449102/page/3#74
On the subject of Phaser Inc, in March:
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Why so negative? They setup their thing, they are already running it (so it's too late), they are not bothering anyone.
Just quoting. Don't mind me. . .
Let me explain it in terms that even a time wasting tire kicker (the typical EvE forum class B troll) will get.
This had nothing to do with predictions, since the outcome was random at best. There is of course a rich history of scams and Ponzis in EvE but it was (and still is) pointless to talk about this thing.
1) No one had indeed a smidge of proof that it was a Ponzi, nor insider knowledge. Nothing.
At this point all we get are the known "Estel Aradors" never-invest-only-waste-time guys spewing their useless flaming sh!t.
In the eyes of an investor (such me) this is just waste of bandwidth, since all they achieve is to mud the waters at every investment. And we know, call the wolf once, call wolf twice... and then none cares any more.
2) Their plan was active and running. As the quoted sentence says: "so it's too late". So why bother, those who believed in them are screwed already.
3) They indeed did not come on MD to sell their scam, why would MD affect or bother with them? Their selling channels were elsewhere so all you could do was to bad mouth them and achieve... to have wasted time and bandwidth.
In conclusion, by harping on them and bumping them to the first page all MD did was to waste time (as usual) and provide free advertisment to them, and absolutely nothing else.
So, why bother?
1) It was an obvious scam from the start. Best case scenario, it was an RMT money laundering ring. What they said the business was, with the interest rate they offered, was not feasible. This was clear to all.
2) When people pointed out it was an obvious scam a/o shady thing, you actively argued against them.
3) I don't care what "MD" does. I don't even know what "MD" means, in the sense you are using the term. However, I will note that your entire forum posting history strongly implies you are not very concerned with the sin of "wasting bandwidth."
So, why do you consistently chose to argue with people who are pointing out obvious scams? You can say "oh, but they said a dumb thing." So did the guys who said "hey it's totally not a scam," but you didn't argue with them. You took a side, and you took the side of the obvious scammers.
Lastly, didn't you quit Eve forever?
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's Paper Tiger Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.12 07:06:00 -
[80]
Finally no more weekly bumps , they really started to irritate me.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.08.12 07:21:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 12/08/2011 07:24:54 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 12/08/2011 07:21:23
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 12/08/2011 07:09:02
1) It was an obvious scam from the start. Best case scenario, it was an RMT money laundering ring. What they said the business was, with the interest rate they offered, was not feasible. This was clear to all.
2) When people pointed out it was an obvious scam a/o shady thing, you actively argued against them.
3) I don't care what "MD" does. I don't even know what "MD" means, in the sense you are using the term. However, I will note that your entire forum posting history strongly implies you are not very concerned with the sin of "wasting bandwidth."
So, why do you consistently chose to argue with people who are pointing out obvious scams? You can say "oh, but they said a dumb thing." So did the guys who said "hey it's totally not a scam," but you didn't argue with them. You took a side, and you took the side of the obvious scammers.
Back to the original point:
You said "they're not bothering anyone" and you reinforced that just now, by saying "their plan was active and running." The scam went on for months after you made that original post. They were clearly bothering lots and lots of people. Obviously, you couldn't have stopped this. No one could have. But I do find it distasteful that what effort you spent on the Phaser Inc matter was to actually (try to) shoot down the critics. That is shady.
Lastly, didn't you quit Eve forever?
Starting from the last. I don't have to respond to you about what I do, but as I said on SCC and even wrote already (but you only recall what you want of course) in my foreclosure post (hey it even said 60 days, figures), I'd have to sub a last month to close the pending stuff I have with some clients. Because people know and trust me and I won't disappoint them.
About this ponzi:
- If you call "effort" the nuggets I wrote about Phaser Inc. then you have yet to see what the word effort means.
- It still was and is a no bother thing. It's like some genius came in to whine because he got margin trading scammed. Not worth bothering. At the same time - since no one had a tangible proof - all we got are negative nannies bad talking about something its authors were not even called to defend themselves for.
If THEY created 1 of the 10000 obvious scam MD threads then it'd be different, but they didn't so all we got was people dissing unknowing others based on no proof. Which is very poor.
Edit to make it even clearer: this thread is the identical thing to those "much free time guys" who in Jita spend hours saying "this is a scam" after every other line of local chat is spammed. They only achieve to be labelled as "much free time guys", those going to be scammed will ignore them, those not going to be scammed will also ignore them, so why bother?
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2011.08.12 11:32:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 12/08/2011 11:32:59
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Oh I just can't resist:
http://eve-search.com/thread/1449102/page/3#74
On the subject of Phaser Inc, in March:
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Why so negative? They setup their thing, they are already running it (so it's too late), they are not bothering anyone.
Just quoting. Don't mind me. . .
don't see why Phaser Inc should have bothered MD more than some random goon running a recruitment scam...
thankfully they stayed away from spamming this forum and amazingly enough we managed to keep the amount and size of Phaser Inc threads here to a manageable level
we like to keep our own house clean but what happens out on the street is not our business (and should stay on the street)
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Nick Bluesky
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:47:00 -
[83]
This is why I only invest in myself.
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's Paper Tiger Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:00:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Nick Bluesky This is why I only invest in myself.
Because investing could never ever be profitable right?
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Nick Bluesky
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:05:00 -
[85]
Originally by: flakeys
Originally by: Nick Bluesky This is why I only invest in myself.
Because investing could never ever be profitable right?
No I love investing IRL. But for the sake of this game, I don't trust anyone.
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's Paper Tiger Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:12:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Nick Bluesky
Originally by: flakeys
Originally by: Nick Bluesky This is why I only invest in myself.
Because investing could never ever be profitable right?
No I love investing IRL. But for the sake of this game, I don't trust anyone.
A lot of people think that way so i understand that part allthough i do feel lucky i'm a bit less para and place a lot of trust on others , even when missplaced at times.
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Klausan
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.12 15:52:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Kostolany Edited by: Kostolany on 18/07/2011 18:07:19 No such business is sure. Your risk is to lose your money... but...
... i have invested 15 bn ISK since March and got back over 7 bn interest. Looks fine for me.
Kostolany's Blog
:tdg:
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Norrin Ellis
Venture Racing
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Posted - 2011.08.12 16:06:00 -
[88]
I fell for it. Maybe I should be ashamed to admit it, but in the end, it's only fake money that I wasn't using anyway.
An associate in EVE was talking about her investment with Phaser Inc. and seemed very pleased with them. After a couple weeks, I had nearly forgotten about it, and then I saw the ad in local. Sure, it had all the makings of a Ponzi scheme, and my better judgment said to run away and never look back. I'm not entirely sure what possessed me to give these guys the benefit of trust, and to be fair, I'll probably trust the wrong person in EVE plenty more times in the future.
I decided to give them as much as I could reasonably afford to lose, which happened to be 1 billion ISK. Oddly enough, a few days ago, another associate mentioned that this was surely a Ponzi scheme, and the first person pulled out her 7 billion ISK right away. I let my money ride, mostly out of laziness, but also on the strange hope that maybe someone really had found a way to deliver on such lofty promises. As much as I abhor scammers, I like to see creative folks put the bittervets in their place as to what is and is not possible in EVE so much more.
Am I upset? Sure. Nobody likes to be swindled. Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? Not really. These gents will enjoy their ill-gotten gains, and I'll go grind out more ISK in my own little way to throw on my small pile for a rainy day. As much as this adds to my overall cynical view of EVE players, I'll probably still continue trusting people that I shouldn't in the hopes that some are not precisely what I expect.
--- CEO, Venture Racing VRT: Public (In-game channel) VRT (Mailing list) |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.12 19:18:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If THEY created 1 of the 10000 obvious scam MD threads then it'd be different, but they didn't so all we got was people dissing unknowing others based on no proof. Which is very poor.
Still sticking to your guns - criticizing an obvious scam is, to you, "very poor."
People say your audits are good. I don't know how this is possible, but people who have actually worked with you and seem clever say it, so I'll believe it. So VV, the auditor, seems to be an effective check on scammers.
But VV, the forum personality, has been, and remains, a friend of scammers.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.12 19:36:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
we like to keep our own house clean but what happens out on the street is not our business (and should stay on the street)
Who is "we?" Who are you speaking for? Do you imagine there is some MD clique that you are part of? If this is true, who else is in it? And do you think that clique has presented an effective check on scammers in MD? I think history would argue otherwise.
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Taedrin
Gallente Kushan Industrial
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Posted - 2011.08.12 19:46:00 -
[91]
Huh, guess it's a good thing I didn't invest in it.
Remember - legitimate businesses that aren't scams not only need to pay interest on loans/investments - but they also need to pay themselves too. The problem is not that it's impossible to do this. The problem is WHY would they do it, instead of providing a more modest interest rate and pocketing the extra profits themselves? ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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trance atlas
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Posted - 2011.08.12 19:51:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
we like to keep our own house clean but what happens out on the street is not our business (and should stay on the street)
Who is "we?" Who are you speaking for? Do you imagine there is some MD clique that you are part of? If this is true, who else is in it? And do you think that clique has presented an effective check on scammers in MD? I think history would argue otherwise.
he has power of attorney for jerry brock liberty and cosmo afaik
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.12 21:08:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 12/08/2011 21:09:02 meh
the reality is that most ponzi scheems spend the money as they go. odds are they just took the money out as they needed it. a billion here, a billion there and eventualy it all goes away.
the reality also is that untill CCP provides real time auditing services then anything going on is bascialy a scam to one degree or another. .End of line.
If your too paranoid to play EvE. . . ...then your not paranoid enough to play EvE ----------------
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Hailey Sunweaver
Minmatar Murientor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.12 21:20:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Hailey Sunweaver on 12/08/2011 21:21:06
Originally by: the xinc Edited by: the xinc on 21/03/2011 07:15:17 they have paid ME back more than I put in so far so yeah I'M not complaining :)
though in saying that before trying it out i thought it was a scam as well lol
I wonder if this guy and the others like him are all smiles today. I thought about investing but came to realize that most of the "banks" and "investment firms" are just a scam anways. We see this this time and time again and ppl don't learn. Hopefully this will teach ppl that there is no such thing as free isk. To those who got all thier money out good job you got lucky.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.08.12 22:53:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If THEY created 1 of the 10000 obvious scam MD threads then it'd be different, but they didn't so all we got was people dissing unknowing others based on no proof. Which is very poor.
Still sticking to your guns - criticizing an obvious scam is, to you, "very poor."
People say your audits are good. I don't know how this is possible, but people who have actually worked with you and seem clever say it, so I'll believe it. So VV, the auditor, seems to be an effective check on scammers.
But VV, the forum personality, has been, and remains, a friend of scammers.
Don't say crap. People say my audits are good because I check what's tangible not the "obvious" made up rumors.
Also to say I am friend to scammers is as solid as saying something is an obvious scam, when the only solid (hopefully) thing you had in your hands was your wily.
I just happen to not believe in them, not believe in what you say and not believe in says and rumors and stick to what can be tested. This can and will mean I won't take prejudicial positions against people my gut feelings tell me they are to steal, but I am for the "innocent until proven guilty" way, which I admit is very unpopular outside the courts.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.12 23:19:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Also to say I am friend to scammers is as solid as saying something is an obvious scam, when the only solid (hopefully) thing you had in your hands was your wily.
I just happen to not believe in them, not believe in what you say and not believe in says and rumors and stick to what can be tested. This can and will mean I won't take prejudicial positions against people my gut feelings tell me they are to steal, but I am for the "innocent until proven guilty" way, which I admit is very unpopular outside the courts.
A cynical person would say you have an interest in there being more scams and scam victims, as that gives you more business.
I choose to think you are just very confused, and don't think very hard. Phaser inc was as obvious as scams get.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.08.12 23:28:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Also to say I am friend to scammers is as solid as saying something is an obvious scam, when the only solid (hopefully) thing you had in your hands was your wily.
I just happen to not believe in them, not believe in what you say and not believe in says and rumors and stick to what can be tested. This can and will mean I won't take prejudicial positions against people my gut feelings tell me they are to steal, but I am for the "innocent until proven guilty" way, which I admit is very unpopular outside the courts.
A cynical person would say you have an interest in there being more scams and scam victims, as that gives you more business.
I choose to think you are just very confused, and don't think very hard. Phaser inc was as obvious as scams get.
I won't get any business because since I am to leave EvE. Actually the tangible expense in domain name and website and possibly in its coding is a point in disfavor of such venture being a scam. If they didn't scam today you would not be here making statements. Sadly EvE statistically attracts the ***** of humanity so indeed financial (and not just those) initiatives usually tend to be scams.
But then, by your parameters, 95% of the MD offerings are obvious scams and then we throw the baby with the wash water.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.12 23:34:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 12/08/2011 23:34:53
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
But then, by your parameters, 95% of the MD offerings are obvious scams and then we throw the baby with the wash water.
95% of the MD offerings rely on Jita spam to get business, and offer 5% weekly interest?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.08.13 00:29:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 12/08/2011 23:34:53
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
But then, by your parameters, 95% of the MD offerings are obvious scams and then we throw the baby with the wash water.
95% of the MD offerings rely on Jita spam to get business, and offer 5% weekly interest?
Instead of 5% on 50M off hundreds hobbyst investors, 95% of MD offerings reply on MD spam (and "rep") to get business and ask for 1-10B out of the blues, with even less guarantees (how many buy a domain + website? How many are posted by 1M SP alts?) to ever see a nickel back.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.13 00:32:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 12/08/2011 23:34:53
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
But then, by your parameters, 95% of the MD offerings are obvious scams and then we throw the baby with the wash water.
95% of the MD offerings rely on Jita spam to get business, and offer 5% weekly interest?
Instead of 5% on 50M off hundreds hobbyst investors, 95% of MD offerings reply on MD spam (and "rep") to get business and ask for 1-10B out of the blues, with even less guarantees (how many buy a domain + website? How many are posted by 1M SP alts?) to ever see a nickel back.
I strongly doubt your "95%" number, but yes, all those things you describe above are indications of risk. God forbid someone point that out though!
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Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2011.08.13 01:04:00 -
[101]
It's been a while since I posted in regards to investing here. I took a break from it a while back and have enjoyed the hiatus :) But I felt this thread was worth chiming in on:
There's a reason that many of us always say that an Audit is important. There's a reason why many of us will tell you never to invest in anything without collateral backing it that's under 7 or 8%... some will go as low as 6 but I honestly think that's just dumb. There's a reason why most vets of MD will tell you that investing in a bank, any bank, in this game is a totally stupid move.
I detest scamming of any kind but I have to admit I smiled and got a bit of a chuckle when I heard about this one turning out to be a Ponzi.
All I can say is:
"We told you so.... many many many times"
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Mychale Amkalai
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Posted - 2011.08.15 22:03:00 -
[102]
Bumping on purpose so others can see and learn.
I note how one of the founders of Phazer makes the claim that CCP supports and encourages such scams. I beg to differ - there are no provisions in Eve's code for banks. It would seem they maybe plan to do so (hence the NPC banks one sees that are actually no different than any other NPC corp) but, for the nonce anyway, there is not one bit of code that manages, controls or sets up any bank of any kind in Eve. It is certainly true that there is no code that prevents it either. This means that anyone can start a corp, call it a bank, and start doing banking activities. So this part of the claim (we do it because CCP allows it) is completely true.
However, since there is no code concerning banks, that means there is no oversight. There is absolutely nothing that prevents anyone from creating a bank nor is there anything to keep the bank honest. There are some who would have you believe this means CCP supports scams since they don't have code to prevent it from happening. I've searched and searched and am completely unable to find any CCP employee saying this. I've asked CCP directly and the most cogent answer was "there is no code within Eve that has anything to do with banking. <the person responding> cannot say whether or not such code will be present in future versions or updates." So how about we lay to rest the scammer's excuse that it's allowed.
Note that since there is no code concerning banking, and thus anyone can start a "bank" this means honest people who have every intention of running a bank correctly and honestly are free to do so. It would seem no one ever has though and there is no mechanism to force the "bankers" to play by any rules.
When you, the player, go into a mission you know the parameters you AND the NPCs have to work within (even level 5 missions, as hairy as they are, are doable - there are no magic NPC enemies that do 100k damage in one shot). When you search the market for something you KNOW the transaction will complete without a hitch according to the numbers you see (this says nothing about whether the trade is a good one). When you go into the Contracts you KNOW that if you accept the contract you WILL pay X for some item(s) (or whatever the actual terms are and, again, it's up to you the player to determine if this is a good trade). There is code in place to guarantee that the mechanics of the mission, the market, the contracts work as they are supposed to thus you can trust these avenues to not be a scam. Of course there are scam-y contracts; read them carefully, be sure that what is advertised matches what is claimed. There is no code in place to guarantee anything at all about the so-called "banks."
Until there is such code in place the prudent player should assume that any such "bank" is just a scam, that anything the scammers say in their defense is no different than a RL criminal trying to get someone to believe his lies, half-truths and semantic games so he can walk away laughing.
I would say that Eve is chock-full of scammers but, really, I have yet to play ANY online game that doesn't have it's share of scammers of some type. Eve is certainly not unique in that regard. I will say, though, that every MMO scammer I've every run into uses the same progression of excuses starting with "the game allows it." That is nothing but semantics.
Bottom line: caveat emptor which is Latin for "let the buyer beware." Since it's Latin that means that even 2,000+ years ago, and longer, scammers have been out looking for victims. Have some sense and you won't be one.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.08.16 05:22:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Mychale Amkalai
I would say that Eve is chock-full of scammers but, really, I have yet to play ANY online game that doesn't have it's share of scammers of some type. Eve is certainly not unique in that regard. I will say, though, that every MMO scammer I've every run into uses the same progression of excuses starting with "the game allows it." That is nothing but semantics.
It's far more than semantics. It's accurate. Bad Bobby still posts here. Ergo, Bad Bobby (Titans4u) is not banned. After Titans4U, you don't think he got petitioned a few times? But he's still here, he still has his isk. Unlike other games, in EVE, scamming is explicitly allowed. Ask a GM if scamming is allowed if you doubt me. It is. And as it's part of the rules, when scammers say it's part of the game, they are 100% correct.
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Tasko Pal
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.08.16 07:42:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Mychale Amkalai
I would say that Eve is chock-full of scammers but, really, I have yet to play ANY online game that doesn't have it's share of scammers of some type. Eve is certainly not unique in that regard. I will say, though, that every MMO scammer I've every run into uses the same progression of excuses starting with "the game allows it." That is nothing but semantics.
It's far more than semantics. It's accurate. Bad Bobby still posts here. Ergo, Bad Bobby (Titans4u) is not banned. After Titans4U, you don't think he got petitioned a few times? But he's still here, he still has his isk. Unlike other games, in EVE, scamming is explicitly allowed. Ask a GM if scamming is allowed if you doubt me. It is. And as it's part of the rules, when scammers say it's part of the game, they are 100% correct.
And a GM sheds a single perfect tear every time CCP gets free publicity from a big scam.
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Carli Zandrya
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.08.22 14:45:00 -
[105]
It's safe to say
DO NOT TRUST ANYONE - ESPECIALLY IN EVE.
They will laugh all the way to the bank. These morons have just confirmed what most people already know - that EvE has more cutthroats, cheaters, idiots, trolls, and scammers than anyone else and generally brings out the worst in people. Yeah. Lovely game.
Or maybe it's just the stupid players that keep coming back for more. --------------------------------------------- Take a stand or fall for anything.
EvE is no longer wife, it is now sleazy mistress. |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.22 17:00:00 -
[106]
I've always argued for more accountability laws to be put in place, but nobody ever listens :) The argument is that there cannot be a criminal justice system when their isn't a reliable deterrent like a jail sentence that will keep players from violating the laws (the big ones, not the concord ones) But, actually we do. Banning. Like putting a person in jail in RL, it removes them from society and reduces their freedom. Make SEC violations, bannable offenses of the CEOs of any 'licensed' bank, then people will start trusting the system, if they know that if their bank ends up pulling a Madoff, then madoff and all the directors of the corp get banned for a time.
--Vherokior Arms Dealer Extraordinaire
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's Paper Tiger Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.22 18:05:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren I want to kill eve
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Shadowspirit
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Posted - 2011.08.25 02:36:00 -
[108]
Curious... has CCP said anything about this? This is the first post i've checked and I really hate scanning forums. Main reason I am asking is they have not long ago by the introduction of the "item mall" created a real world value and attached it to ISK. A scam like this on fake money is just people falling for something and being stupid, but when it has a real world value attached to it that falls more in line with real LEGAL ramifications that can be cast upon CCP if they fail to fix the problem. Not to mention against the scammers themselves depending where they reside.
On top of that it's bad press and shows a bad image of CCP if they turn a blind eye to it. Not to mention they OPENLY admitted to a correlation between their accounts and players active eve accounts stating they "could" have accessed players accounts which not only shows a serious security risk, but opens up another legal issue altogether.
I'd completely recommend anyone that has lost major investment here to not only contact a lawyer but utilize that lawyer to put pressure on CCP to release the personal information attached to the accounts involved in the scam allowing legal action to be taken against them. This type of situation would help define how companies handle scams of this magnitude in the future.
While I have never trusted anyone so never given to any "investment group" I can't but I can assure you if I dropped 1bil + isk into it I would look into it what can it hurt? A free consultation with a lawyer? Just some food for thought.
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Tekota
The Freighter Factory
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Posted - 2011.08.25 03:10:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Shadowspirit Curious... has CCP said anything about this? This is the first post i've checked and I really hate scanning forums. Main reason I am asking is they have not long ago by the introduction of the "item mall" created a real world value and attached it to ISK. A scam like this on fake money is just people falling for something and being stupid, but when it has a real world value attached to it that falls more in line with real LEGAL ramifications that can be cast upon CCP if they fail to fix the problem. Not to mention against the scammers themselves depending where they reside.
On top of that it's bad press and shows a bad image of CCP if they turn a blind eye to it. Not to mention they OPENLY admitted to a correlation between their accounts and players active eve accounts stating they "could" have accessed players accounts which not only shows a serious security risk, but opens up another legal issue altogether.
I'd completely recommend anyone that has lost major investment here to not only contact a lawyer but utilize that lawyer to put pressure on CCP to release the personal information attached to the accounts involved in the scam allowing legal action to be taken against them. This type of situation would help define how companies handle scams of this magnitude in the future.
While I have never trusted anyone so never given to any "investment group" I can't but I can assure you if I dropped 1bil + isk into it I would look into it what can it hurt? A free consultation with a lawyer? Just some food for thought.
Oh for the love of god the last thing we need is any more from armchair internet spaceship lawyers. I'm sorry but for the last time, ISK has NO real world value. ISK, your chars, your ships, your monocles and all associated pixels have no value because you can't turn them into dollars, euros, yen, pounds, etc.
IF you believe that ISK has real life value with legal ramifications then before you start trying to sue to get your pixels back then the very first thing you should do is start paying tax on all those space pixels you've been earning. You can't have it both ways.
And for dev confirmation, well for a taster, how about the very latest dev blog - http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2355 which quotes "Capsuleers rarely take time off from flying around in space, pulling the latest, greatest, ever-larger scams, or engaging in massive fleet battles". If you want more, perhaps just read through every communication and press statement CCP have put out over the last few years - because probably half of them mention scamming as being part of the game.
It's not a part of the game I like, I feel a little pity for those who've lost space pixels, but scams are a part of Eve and are valid play styles within the framework and rules CCP provide.
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Ashgoz Kouvo
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Posted - 2011.08.25 11:46:00 -
[110]
Zymurgist encouraging people to scam.
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Shadowspirit
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Posted - 2011.08.25 19:22:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Tekota
Originally by: Shadowspirit Curious... has CCP said anything about this? This is the first post i've checked and I really hate scanning forums. Main reason I am asking is they have not long ago by the introduction of the "item mall" created a real world value and attached it to ISK. A scam like this on fake money is just people falling for something and being stupid, but when it has a real world value attached to it that falls more in line with real LEGAL ramifications that can be cast upon CCP if they fail to fix the problem. Not to mention against the scammers themselves depending where they reside.
On top of that it's bad press and shows a bad image of CCP if they turn a blind eye to it. Not to mention they OPENLY admitted to a correlation between their accounts and players active eve accounts stating they "could" have accessed players accounts which not only shows a serious security risk, but opens up another legal issue altogether.
I'd completely recommend anyone that has lost major investment here to not only contact a lawyer but utilize that lawyer to put pressure on CCP to release the personal information attached to the accounts involved in the scam allowing legal action to be taken against them. This type of situation would help define how companies handle scams of this magnitude in the future.
While I have never trusted anyone so never given to any "investment group" I can't but I can assure you if I dropped 1bil + isk into it I would look into it what can it hurt? A free consultation with a lawyer? Just some food for thought.
Oh for the love of god the last thing we need is any more from armchair internet spaceship lawyers. I'm sorry but for the last time, ISK has NO real world value. ISK, your chars, your ships, your monocles and all associated pixels have no value because you can't turn them into dollars, euros, yen, pounds, etc.
IF you believe that ISK has real life value with legal ramifications then before you start trying to sue to get your pixels back then the very first thing you should do is start paying tax on all those space pixels you've been earning. You can't have it both ways.
And for dev confirmation, well for a taster, how about the very latest dev blog - http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2355 which quotes "Capsuleers rarely take time off from flying around in space, pulling the latest, greatest, ever-larger scams, or engaging in massive fleet battles". If you want more, perhaps just read through every communication and press statement CCP have put out over the last few years - because probably half of them mention scamming as being part of the game.
It's not a part of the game I like, I feel a little pity for those who've lost space pixels, but scams are a part of Eve and are valid play styles within the framework and rules CCP provide.
ISK = Plex, Plex = Game time, Game time = real world value. People can in fact make "money" by playing eve plex is equal to real world 14.95$ US anyone with half a brain can make the connection and I can assure you judges have made decisions based on far less. Like I said it doesn't hurt those effected to try.
It's not that difficult to make ISK in the game but those that are so lazy they come up with scams just to steal from others so they don't actually have to earn it just makes the game lose in the end. The fact that there is a statement where a member of CCP even states something on scamming just shows eve is going in the wrong direction. I'd like to see the server pop increase not shrink personally. There is plenty of "shady" pirate like behavior to be had, but conning people should not be one of them.
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Carcosa Hali
True Slave Foundations
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Posted - 2011.08.26 00:46:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Shadowspirit
stuff.
I think you should do this. Please let us know how it turns out.
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Within Sansha
Outside. |
Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.26 07:36:00 -
[113]
Still rumbling on and still failing to provide any proof of their extraordinary claims of success.
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Barakach
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Posted - 2011.08.27 00:50:00 -
[114]
"ISK = Plex, Plex = Game time, Game time = real world value. People can in fact make "money" by playing eve plex is equal to real world 14.95$ US anyone with half a brain can make the connection and I can assure you judges have made decisions based on far less. Like I said it doesn't hurt those effected to try. "
"Game time = real world value" is not the same has "Game time = real world money"
If this was true, the government could tax your in-game earnings and you would have to file any profits.
If it's not tax-able, it's not real.
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