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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.04.05 17:19:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Horizonist
The problems is that hotspots tend to move by drastic distances, not just from one edge of your ECUs range to the other.
The key is to balance how the fixed, static resource spots are being handled. Trying to find an equilibrium allows for quite steady rates of extraction over longer times.
I haven't seen this problem... but then again wormhole planets are pretty juicy. Guess real estate is all about location, location, location.
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Freezehunter
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.04.05 17:22:00 -
[32]
In b4 lock&b&. _________________________________________________ Be polite, be efficient, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. |
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:11:00 -
[33]
Originally by: nano bobcat why arent you hauling/mission running or trading then??
Who says that I am not already doing it all, Bobcat? And what has this got to do with the topic? PI is the topic.
There is little profit and no growth in PI.
Why did we need it again? --
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Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:13:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: nano bobcat why arent you hauling/mission running or trading then??
Who says that I am not already doing it all, Bobcat? And what has this got to do with the topic? PI is the topic.
There is little profit and no growth in PI.
Why did we need it again?
I call trolling, sorry.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:16:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Whitehound on 05/04/2011 18:17:09
Originally by: xXxSatsujinxXx I spend 20 minutes on it every couple of days, and it pays for my subscription (and then some). Doesn't seem crap to me, maybe you're just doing it wrong.
I pay my subscription with real money. Some say I do RMT.
I do not care if you can buy a PLEX with it. I can buy me lots of PLEX.
Where do you see yourself making experience with PI? Where do you learn with everyday you use it and how do you increase your profit?
It is not a passive income when I have to babysit it every day and empty it.
And what is the point of 7- and 14-day programs? You run it for 3-days and it feels like a huge loss already. Why even bother with 7- days or more? --
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 05/04/2011 18:24:12 I pay my subscription with real money. Some trolls say I do RMT.
I do not care if you can buy a PLEX with it. I can buy me lots of PLEX.
Where do you see yourself making experience with PI? Where do you learn with each day you are using it and how do you increase your profits?
It is not a passive income when I have to babysit it every day and empty it.
And what is the point of 7- and 14-day programs? You run it for 3-days and it feels like a huge loss already. Why even bother with 7- days or more?
PI is so boring that I would rather spend one hour with mining than 5 minutes with PI.
In the AM before work, I take 15 minutes and collect my PI, check the extractions etc. and I'm out the door getting the kids to school. In the evening I'll check and collect again, another 15 or so minutes sitting at the pos after scanning. 30 minutes or so a day and the pos is well fed as well as my income well padded. If PI is failing to provide you with a noticable profit like it is others, then it's obvious the problem isn't with PI, it's more likely that how you're doing your PI could use a little refining in order to see the potential profits. There are a lot of mistakes people make that drain their profits and are easy to correct.
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Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:48:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Whitehound
PI is so boring that I would rather spend one hour with mining than 5 minutes with PI.
The beauty of living in New Eden is that you have the freedom to do just that.
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Jacque Cruix
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:55:00 -
[38]
Nice thing about this game is that there is something for most everyone, but everything isn't for everyone.
Too bad some haven't figured that out.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:00:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
Originally by: Whitehound
PI is so boring that I would rather spend one hour with mining than 5 minutes with PI.
The beauty of living in New Eden is that you have the freedom to do just that.
Exactly. I've never even looked at a planet in PI mode - the whole things sounds unspeakably tedious, generating (from what I've heard) income levels that I simply don't care about. Not as tedious and time-consuming as mining or running missions, maybe but still distinctly un-fun.
So I chose not to do it. Wahey!
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Liorah
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:12:00 -
[40]
I'm not experienced with the Extraction portion, fearing annoyances at resource depletion rates that I had heard horror stories about. So I went with the further-processing option near a trade hub that has really good traffic and volume, hoping for a reasonably decent market. I set up near Jita. My skills: five planets, advanced CC (L4 and L4).
With a 20-factory setup (for P3) and 10-factory setup (for P4), it only takes a couple of minutes to restock and keep the same schematic ticking along. I had enough storage for 30 hours on P3 planets, and 20 hours on P4 planets. That fit my typical day-to-day schedule nicely.
However, if you need to change production, it was 12 minutes per planet of constant clicking on the 20-factory P3 planets, and half that time for the 10-factory P4 planets. That's just broken. For someone with 5 P3 planets, that's an hour of constant clicking. Fortunately I never had the funds to run them all at full production, or I would have wanted to throw my computer out the window. Those times are just the constant clicking to change schematics; they don't include resupply, marketing, and market research times.
I have also experienced the shallow market, as commented elsewhere. You're mostly selling to light consumers of the products, not to the real users (ie: Nullsec alliances with tons of towers). The people who would REALLY buy the stuff are making it themselves so they don't have to stop running their sanctums. You're selling to the few hisec corps who buy their fuel on the market, and to tower manufacturers who can't produce everything they need. Very low volume.
The way to make money in PI is to have a LARGE pool of money to invest so you can build up a huge stock of products to have on hand when each spike happens. It doesn't matter whether this is from extracting your own P0 or further-processing your own P4. For someone without that much spare cash to throw around, the time it takes to produce the stuff means you're going to miss out on making a profit. Basically, if your wallet already runneth over, PI can be a great money maker as long as you can convince people to buy from your sell orders (unpredictable).
A fix would be to increase the demand for PI products to keep up with the supply.
I ended up making maybe 20-30 mil per week, taking sometimes an hour per day, mostly selling to buy orders. Basically, I broke even in three weeks (not including 10 days of training), after accounting for the initial investment in skillbooks, implants, hauler, and infrastructure ... plus a typo in a sell order costing me a wad of cash, which was my own fault.
(I care about PI less than I did before I started, so... For producing P4, you can usually purchase two of the ingredients and produce the third with a reasonable profit margin, assuming you can catch the market peaks. For 5 planets, this means have two P4 planets and three P3 planets. That should work out to be the maximum profit for pure further-processing setups. P2 isn't worth selling unless you are extracting your own P0, and then you have more profit potential from selling P2 than further-processing to P3)
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:23:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Jacque Cruix Nice thing about this game is that there is something for most everyone, but everything isn't for everyone.
Too bad some haven't figured that out.
Nonsense. Why did we have to remove learning skills then? One could argue for any crap to be put into the game based on the thought that someone might find it useful. Why not allow macros and bots? Are they not useful to some?! ...
Imagine PI being a separate game and you would get it to your birthday. When would you ever play it? The only reason you touch PI is because you have to or else you could not build POS structures. Others use it, because it gets them some extra ISKs. If you however had the choice between the current PI and one that is less boring, containing more to learn, to be creative with and that grows with you, then you would want the better one.
The planets themselves are a visual improvement. PI however is just a dull idea of how to intact with a planet. Strip away the story and the pretty planets and you get what is probably the most boring waste of time in EVE. --
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:30:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Liorah I'm not experienced with the Extraction portion, fearing annoyances at resource depletion rates that I had heard horror stories about. So I went with the further-processing option near a trade hub that has really good traffic and volume, hoping for a reasonably decent market. I set up near Jita. My skills: five planets, advanced CC (L4 and L4).
With a 20-factory setup (for P3) and 10-factory setup (for P4), it only takes a couple of minutes to restock and keep the same schematic ticking along. I had enough storage for 30 hours on P3 planets, and 20 hours on P4 planets. That fit my typical day-to-day schedule nicely.
This is a nice way to do it and I did this at first, too. But it involved too much markets and I already trade a lot and was looking for some more diversity. So I went with extraction. I even scanned 600 planets, created a minor survey and got sheets in my EVE spreadsheet covering planets and schematics. I have not yet found a damn thing about PI for which I could say that it was interesting. Even when I go mining and hear the drilling of the mining lasers for hours do I change the system each time to keep it interesting.
It is almost as if PI was designed to be boring so that one uses the longer extraction cycles only to stay away from it for longer. It is a dumb explanation, but it is the only one I have. --
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Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Whitehound stuff
Your argument that PI is needed to build POSes is wrong, and you know it. You do not need to touch PI in order to build a POS any more then you have to touch a Strip Miner to get yourself a ship. Other people do the work and profit from it, when you pay for what they worked for.
Nobody forces you to do PI, nobody forces you to mine, yet these two are core components in the functioning of the economy, producing the materials needed for ships to brought to bear, and POSes to stay online. Because of this, a demand is created for them. Because there is a demand, there is a profit to doing it. Because there is a profit to doing it, people do it.
Plain and simple.
And even so, nobody forces you to do either. Eve rules like that.
PS. Mission running is wonderfully repetitive and boring as well, would you argue that we dont need it? Or does it fill a function?
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Jamaican Herbsman
I Love You Mary Jane
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:40:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 05/04/2011 18:24:12
Originally by: xXxSatsujinxXx I spend 20 minutes on it every couple of days, and it pays for my subscription (and then some). Doesn't seem crap to me, maybe you're just doing it wrong.
I pay my subscription with real money. Some trolls say I do RMT.
I do not care if you can buy a PLEX with it. I can buy me lots of PLEX.
Where do you see yourself making experience with PI? Where do you learn with each day you are using it and how do you increase your profits?
It is not a passive income when I have to babysit it every day and empty it.
And what is the point of 7- and 14-day programs? You run it for 3-days and it feels like a huge loss already. Why even bother with 7- days or more?
PI is so boring that I would rather spend one hour with mining than 5 minutes with PI.
One can always ask why do x while you could be doing y instead and make isk faster. Personally I hate PI, but I hate mission running and mining as well. Hauling, mining, mission running and trading works for you, PI works for other people. Also some people run missions to get isk and some people run missions just because they enjoy running missions, the isk is just bonus. It's a balance between effort, isk/hour-rate and fun factor.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:44:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Horizonist Your argument that PI is needed to build POSes is wrong, and you know it.
Why is it wrong? I have yet to see a wetware mainframe or steril conduits drop as loot. --
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Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:45:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Horizonist Your argument that PI is needed to build POSes is wrong, and you know it.
Why is it wrong? I have yet to see a wetware mainframe or steril conduits drop as loot.
I interpreted your "build POS" simply as "put up POS", if that was not your intended meaning then nevermind.
Even so, the rest stands. Nobody forces you to do PI, there are others who find it fun, leave them to it.
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Kisali
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:49:00 -
[47]
Well, the main thing I dont like about PI is how difficult it is to estimate production based on the cryptic resource bars and heat maps. I wish I could scan a planet and get like an accurate info window that tells me the range of units of resources I can expect to pull from this planet.
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Blacksquirrel
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:56:00 -
[48]
I dunno should passive income make as much as active? I like it setup a 1-3 day cycle only need to move stuff around once on those cycle rates.
Also because they made it much more efficient more people got into it thus supply went up and prices went down. I will agree that in high sec it's not worth it...so try it in low sec. Meh I enjoy it and not much involved really.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.05 20:08:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Blacksquirrel I dunno should passive income make as much as active? I like it setup a 1-3 day cycle only need to move stuff around once on those cycle rates.
Also because they made it much more efficient more people got into it thus supply went up and prices went down. I will agree that in high sec it's not worth it...so try it in low sec. Meh I enjoy it and not much involved really.
Do you have any points you could make why you like PI? --
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Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.04.05 20:13:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Horizonist Your argument that PI is needed to build POSes is wrong, and you know it.
Why is it wrong? I have yet to see a wetware mainframe or steril conduits drop as loot.
If only there was somewhere...anywhere...where people just bought and sold stuff like that without having to make it themselves. Hmm...have to check F&I, but I thought I heard something about a market being added to the game.
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Blacksquirrel
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Posted - 2011.04.05 20:16:00 -
[51]
The Passive part. Given my schedule I can't grind the hours out as much as the next guy. Time to isk ratio i could make more mining or what have you, but I dont once again have the "actual" time to do so. Also it's a nice break from other activities...the coordination of mats/cycles. So much more different than other stuff in eve... Also escaping low sec with a hauler full of goods can be fun.
Considering 95% is all passive (or thats how it is for me) it shouldn't make as much as other activities.
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Jacque Cruix
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Posted - 2011.04.05 20:22:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Blacksquirrel The Passive part. Given my schedule I can't grind the hours out as much as the next guy. Time to isk ratio i could make more mining or what have you, but I dont once again have the "actual" time to do so. Also it's a nice break from other activities...the coordination of mats/cycles. So much more different than other stuff in eve... Also escaping low sec with a hauler full of goods can be fun.
Considering 95% is all passive (or thats how it is for me) it shouldn't make as much as other activities.
Yep, I pretty much like it for the same reasons. PI works great for me in those regards.
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Sable Blitzmann
Minmatar Massively Dynamic
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Posted - 2011.04.05 20:32:00 -
[53]
I can support both my accounts with 3 characters doing PI in a wormhole which takes no more than 30 minutes a week of maintenance. No, it's not going to make you rich, but it's more or less passive income. How rich do you think you can get via passive income.
It's also an easy way to make POS fuel.
As others have said, don't do it if you don't like it.
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Freezehunter
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.04.05 20:32:00 -
[54]
Successful Troll is successful. Successful Flamebaiter is successful.
/me lays back in his captain's quarters chair and grins at his FIM (forum interface Monitor). _________________________________________________ Be polite, be efficient, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. |
Jonn Smyth
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:15:00 -
[55]
I do PI in hi-sec .5-.6 systems and enjoy it. I started PI because it was something new to learn and stayed with it because I found it relaxing. I put on some ambient tunes, smoke some sticky, and clickity click on planets. At the end of the month, I'm a little richer.
I think it would be easier to find it enjoyable if your main goal wasn't max profit, but rather max efficiency with regards to how much personal time you want to invest and what your PI skills/environments are capable of producing. I find it enjoyable and feel successful when I can create a system that has no bottlenecks, makes the most of my PI skills and my relatively safe hi-sec environment, and makes isk 23/7 with minimal management.
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:18:00 -
[56]
I will say, I tried PI for a while. honestly not worth the time or effort. I was in WH space too, some real good resources. Had 5 planets going. I wasn't mad, maybe others can make fistfulls of isk, but I wasn't interested in putting the time or effort in to it. _____________________________________ Real men corpse tank. |
Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:29:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 05/04/2011 21:29:31 I think we need to keep in mind...
1: PI with its easy to pick up skill set is a good revenue source for beginning characters.
2: PI is a decent passive income source that allows you to do other activities for your main income and functions as supplemental income for more advanced characters.
3: Many people like tweeking and puzzle solving. For those folks PI is an interesting problem in efficiency to fiddle with.
4: Even after the streamlining upgrade, we still only have the most rudimentary framework in place for PI. Much like the profession of mining evolved over time, more layers to the onion will be added as we get closer to DUST being linked into PI. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:39:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Whitehound on 05/04/2011 21:43:49
Originally by: Jacque Cruix PI works great for me in those regards.
You are missing the point. It works as a passive income source, but so do all passive income sources.
Take manufacturing or researching for a comparison. Both activities are good for an extra income, but at least is the interface simple and does not ask you to move some furniture around before it does something for you. You do not have to move around dots and lines as with PI, nor do you need to plan your grid usage or have to manage schematics and their amounts plus different cycle times to be successful with it.
With PI do I often find myself multiplying the amounts with 2 or have to divide them by 4 every time I check on my planets. I then do not go "Hurray, I can do another multiplication in my head!" after I have done it a thousand times. Every PI set up - except the one only consisting of processors - is imperfect and trying to perfection it has thought me not to do it, because it is dissatisfying and not rewarding (I have scrapped a few set ups at start only to end up with another dissatisfying version). And the ISKs one gets out of it do not make up for it. Unless one needs the products of PI, like POS fuel or repair paste, is playing around with PI a disappointment.
Mining, where I do not have to know what each ore is good for either, still challenges me each time to find a good place and the best buyers (if I only want ISKs of it). With PI am I not responding to any demands on the markets - or I have to scrap a set up each time the market changes without knowing ahead how successful a new set up will be.
Exploration is another example, one for where I am forced to work in three dimensions moving around probes in order to find something ("fiddling with furniture"). One does it, because it has got rewards in it like a hidden belt or an escalation. The reward of fiddling with PI seems to be a slow income, where one needs to haul the stuff to the markets and watch the markets go up and down without having much influence on any of it. --
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sableye
principle of motion
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:43:00 -
[59]
Edited by: sableye on 05/04/2011 21:47:38 I make 800 mil isk a month from planets for 5 minuets work a day then 1-2 hours hauling every 2 weeks and a freighter run about once every 3 weeks, not bad for hardly any work although planets have started to get lower due to me mining so much on planets and alos can;t see why you say you need to baby sit them I just use 24 hours cycles and set them once a day and I can do it from half way accross galaxy only need to travel there to launch my rockets and even then don't have to haul till space thing gets full, to put thing in prespective though I do run 46 planets which is how I make 800 mil isk a month with miminmum effort with effort you'd make even more.
----------------------------------------- View The North Star! In All Its Glory!! |
Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:51:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Whitehound
- The profits are a joke.
You're doing it wrong. I'm making 500-700mil every few weeks with PI. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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