Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Sidicarus
The Free Haven Group Excuses.
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 05:32:00 -
[1]
Our dear Eve Economist, Dr. Eyj=lfur Gu=mundsson made it pretty clear in both his statements in the QEN and regarding the forthcoming 0.0 nerf that there is too much ISK in Eve. I tend to agree. Despite all the crying about the subject, there is still plenty of isk to be made ratting anomaly after anomaly in 0.0, even if they aren't all Sanctums and Havens. The real, underlying problem here is bounties. It's basically printed money, thrown, en masse into the economy. Billions and billions of it every week. Add botters into the mix and you don't just have an ISK faucet, you have an ISK fire hydrant. A fire hydrant that has been opened and is pouring into the streets showering the denizens of 0.0 like so many movies have portrayed minority children playing in the streets of Brooklyn, circa 1967. As a 0.0 denizen myself, but outside the realm of the major 0.0 power blocks, I could be wrong when I say that wars like the type we saw a few years ago between the Goons and BoB, among other don't happen anymore. But those were wars of attrition, things were being broken faster than they could be replaced. Now we have supercaps rolling off the lines every day. Wars now are every bit as massive and lag inducing as ever, but no one seems to move. Someone looses a 400m ISK Cynabal, they go back home and hop in one of 3 others.
My proposed change is simple. -Nuke bounties.... Maybe even get rid of Lv2, 3 and 4 bounties altogether (not 100% about removing them altogether). -Replace bounties with loot. Good loot, and the small chance for really good loot, even in empire. -KILL ALL TEH BOTTERZ!
"But NOOOOO!"
Here's the deal. Like I mentioned before, bounties are fake ISK, its printed money. Everyone knows that printing money is bad news. Just ask Zimbabwe, where 96% of the populations wipe their asses with $1,000,000,000,000 bills. (The remaining 4% wipe their ass with $100,000,000,000,000 bills) Continuing to pump fake money in into the Eve economy is going to have consequences. As noted in the QEN, its only a gradual rise at the moment, but that can escalate to a breaking point.
Of course just reducing/removing bounties is going really, really **** off a huge portion of the Eve playerbase. And unlike the nullbears whining about their sanctums, these people really will cancel their subscriptions in droves. That's why you have to replace the missing bounties with loot drops of near equal value. Loot drops have a completely different effect on the Eve economy. Its not just printing money, ala bounties, as the items have to be sold to another player. This has a closed loop effect in the economic cycle where money is simply changing hands and not being created out of thin air. Care of course has to be taken lest all of these loot drops end up being the Large T2 EMP Smartbomb BPC every mission runner has kicking around their hanger. Things to consider would be larger amounts of Ammo being dropped, 1,000 instead of 100. Hauler NPC's that drop compressed ore. BPC's. NEW named T1 items. Faction item drops in empire.
KILLING ALL TEH BOTTERZ!! is pretty self explanatory. Even so far as to say that I think everything else I just wrote would be completely moot if CCP could reliably remove at least 75% of the botters.
That being said, what other ideas are out there? Larger isk sinks? Just nerfing Lv4 missions? Increased Sov charges? Am I completely wrong?
|
AristotleOnassis
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 05:46:00 -
[2]
On retrorespect, an easy way to maintain inflation is
1) retain the isk faucet currently 2) allow more non-player-characters to throw ore into the system. but not isk (ie: ban bots in sanctums and missions, but not miners)
hence, inflation wont increase. in fact everyone will be happy, as ore becomes cheaper, modules becomes cheaper, but everyone has more isk. The breaking point is when everyone pvp's with faction and deadspace mods, but thats ok, since officer mods will still be expensive enough to sustain the living.
|
Lucia Sarain
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 05:51:00 -
[3]
No, that's dumb, minerals should come from industry not ratting, there's still way too much loot refining as is.
Having isk faucets is fine because there's sinks too where money goes *poof*. Every single isk that goes to NPCs disappears. Every time a PLEX is used isk is drained. Game economies are not like real economies no matter how many men in suits use big words about them and printing money is just fine. Balancing a game economy is a matter of good faucet / sink balance and policing your game against botting/exploits not mirroring your real life favorite economic theory into the game and watching it crash and burn because this is a game.
|
Sidicarus
The Free Haven Group Excuses.
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 06:05:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lucia Sarain No, that's dumb, minerals should come from industry not ratting, there's still way too much loot refining as is.
Having isk faucets is fine because there's sinks too where money goes *poof*. Every single isk that goes to NPCs disappears. Every time a PLEX is used isk is drained. Game economies are not like real economies no matter how many men in suits use big words about them and printing money is just fine. Balancing a game economy is a matter of good faucet / sink balance and policing your game against botting/exploits not mirroring your real life favorite economic theory into the game and watching it crash and burn because this is a game.
-A huge amount of mins already come from ratting. Between the drone regions and to a lesser extent, hauler drops in 0.0. The fact that for the last x years, the Hulk remains the most flown ship in Eve, I dont underestimate the amount of mins, straight up mining puts into the system, especially on the lower end. And as I mentioned before, remove the botters and Eve instantly has a severe mineral shortage.
Also, when a PLEX is bought RL $$ disappears, not isk. The isk remains, it just changes hands.
And no... just no. Printing money is not "just fine". No one should want Eve to be WoW, where is everyone is running around as a Lv80 whatever, using the most top of the line gear. Isk and equipment in Eve should never be superfluous. If everyone had $50,000,000,000 ISK or more kicking around their wallet, that's just what it would be.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 06:47:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Akita T on 06/04/2011 06:48:18
Ideas are like body openings, almost everybody has at least one.
Here's a few. Take one, several or all of them.
Increase sov bills to the levels they were first presented at (and everbody screamed bloody murder until they were nerfed heavily). Introduce a sliding scale bounty-vs-loot system : the higher the truesec, the lower the ISK bounty, and the higher the dropped loot and salvage yield. Replace mission bonus time ISK rewards with bonus LP rewards. Add a lot more USEFUL//new items to the LP stores, reduce LP/item costs, increase ISK costs. Reduce insurance payout rates for battlecruisers and battleships even more. Make it so that all items can be sold on the market (so that they start getting traded there more often, and therefore be taxed more efficiently). Introduce new skills, new blueprints and other NPC-sold useful items. You could literally double the ship and weapon skills by adding "booster" versions that would have the prerequisite of L5 in the basic skill and as effect the increase of the basic skill's effect by anywhere between 1% and 10% per level. Or a second variant to all T1 ships (same model, same paintjob but with different lighting or something else that's easily doable in a hurry) with slightly different slottage//stats. Or a third variant for all too. Make it so that NPC manufacture/research slots follow the rules of offices (too busy, price goes up, not used, price goes down).
And so on and so forth.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
|
Sidicarus
The Free Haven Group Excuses.
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 06:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/04/2011 06:48:18
Ideas are like body openings, almost everybody has at least one.
Here's a few. Take one, several or all of them.
Increase sov bills to the levels they were first presented at (and everbody screamed bloody murder until they were nerfed heavily). Introduce a sliding scale bounty-vs-loot system : the higher the truesec, the lower the ISK bounty, and the higher the dropped loot and salvage yield. Replace mission bonus time ISK rewards with bonus LP rewards. Add a lot more USEFUL//new items to the LP stores, reduce LP/item costs, increase ISK costs. Reduce insurance payout rates for battlecruisers and battleships even more. Make it so that all items can be sold on the market (so that they start getting traded there more often, and therefore be taxed more efficiently). Introduce new skills, new blueprints and other NPC-sold useful items. You could literally double the ship and weapon skills by adding "booster" versions that would have the prerequisite of L5 in the basic skill and as effect the increase of the basic skill's effect by anywhere between 1% and 10% per level. Or a second variant to all T1 ships (same model, same paintjob but with different lighting or something else that's easily doable in a hurry) with slightly different slottage//stats. Or a third variant for all too. Make it so that NPC manufacture/research slots follow the rules of offices (too busy, price goes up, not used, price goes down).
And so on and so forth.
Yes^^^
Akita.. CCP should be paying you.
|
Aderata Nonkin
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 07:22:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Akita T
- Replace mission bonus time ISK rewards with bonus LP rewards.
- Add a lot more USEFUL//new items to the LP stores, reduce LP/item costs, increase ISK costs.
- Reduce insurance payout rates for battlecruisers and battleships even more.
Made the quote easier to read because I definitely and absolutely agree with these points.
ĉIf you are not big enough to lose, then you are not big enough to win.Ĉ |
Erichk Knaar
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 07:26:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 06/04/2011 07:25:49
Originally by: Akita T
Increase sov bills to the levels they were first presented at (and everbody screamed bloody murder until they were nerfed heavily).
Now THAT would be a thread to behold...
|
Learath
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 07:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Aderata Nonkin
Originally by: Akita T
- Replace mission bonus time ISK rewards with bonus LP rewards.
- Add a lot more USEFUL//new items to the LP stores, reduce LP/item costs, increase ISK costs.
- Reduce insurance payout rates for battlecruisers and battleships even more.
Made the quote easier to read because I definitely and absolutely agree with these points.
Better idea. Eliminate insurance payouts for gankers/pirates. If concord blows up your ship, you probably shouldn't get an insurance payout.
|
EnslaverOfMinmatar
Amarr Viziam
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 07:34:00 -
[10]
Some Doctors get paid too much. Nerf their salaries. uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ Signature removed. Please submit a petition for further details. Navigator
|
|
Tarasina
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 07:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/04/2011 06:48:18
Add a lot more USEFUL//new items to the LP stores, reduce LP/item costs, increase ISK costs.
THIS! Why would I buy a RF 1MN AB (40 mil on market, cost me around 40 mil in tags...) from LP shop when I can get a better one for 15-20 mil (factiondrop)? Yes, I was lazy didn't research.
Theres just no point to buy anything from the LP shop except for selling. Nothing much for personal use. Theres a total of 2 items I can think of from minnie store that are worth it to me. Gyro, AB. Out of hundreds stocked.
|
knobber Jobbler
Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 08:17:00 -
[12]
I agree there is to much ISK. Its probably more down to multiple account holders AFK missioning or running sites and students/bums playing it for 40+ hours a week.
But on the other hand don't kill the game for single account holders who don't play this game like a job.
CCP shouldn't nerf the ISK but balance things out.
|
Ioci
Gallente Morrigna Order
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 08:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: knobber Jobbler I agree there is to much ISK. Its probably more down to multiple account holders AFK missioning or running sites and students/bums playing it for 40+ hours a week.
But on the other hand don't kill the game for single account holders who don't play this game like a job.
CCP shouldn't nerf the ISK but balance things out.
This. EVE is already a power grinders game. This just feeds that unhealthy expactation from people.
The original appeal EVE offered was that we could skill offline, we could hold our own against the power grinders even if we have less game time. With the average vet having 60 to 100K+ SP Skills mean nothing in the a mature MMO like EVE and it all comes down to wallet size. EVE doesn't need to change mechanics so it becomes more expensive to play day to day. It needs huge Corp and alliance based one time investment schemes to shrink the wallets and not damage the bulk of the player base that sit on average, 400 Million ISK. |
Zey Nadar
Gallente Unknown Soldiers Wildly Inappropriate.
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 09:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/04/2011 06:48:18
Ideas are like body openings, almost everybody has at least one.
Here's a few. Take one, several or all of them.
Increase sov bills to the levels they were first presented at (and everbody screamed bloody murder until they were nerfed heavily). Introduce a sliding scale bounty-vs-loot system : the higher the truesec, the lower the ISK bounty, and the higher the dropped loot and salvage yield. Replace mission bonus time ISK rewards with bonus LP rewards. Add a lot more USEFUL//new items to the LP stores, reduce LP/item costs, increase ISK costs. Reduce insurance payout rates for battlecruisers and battleships even more. Make it so that all items can be sold on the market (so that they start getting traded there more often, and therefore be taxed more efficiently). Introduce new skills, new blueprints and other NPC-sold useful items. You could literally double the ship and weapon skills by adding "booster" versions that would have the prerequisite of L5 in the basic skill and as effect the increase of the basic skill's effect by anywhere between 1% and 10% per level. Or a second variant to all T1 ships (same model, same paintjob but with different lighting or something else that's easily doable in a hurry) with slightly different slottage//stats. Or a third variant for all too. Make it so that NPC manufacture/research slots follow the rules of offices (too busy, price goes up, not used, price goes down).
And so on and so forth.
There are some good ideas here, although I dont think sov bills need to be increased, its already extremely hard for new alliances to enter the world of sov.
|
1600 RT
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 09:43:00 -
[15]
i agree with most of what OP say but replacing bounties with standard loot would be a nerf to mining. more salvage or more faction spawn with faction loots could be a nice idea
|
1600 RT
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 09:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Aderata Nonkin
Originally by: Akita T
- Replace mission bonus time ISK rewards with bonus LP rewards.
- Add a lot more USEFUL//new items to the LP stores, reduce LP/item costs, increase ISK costs.
- Reduce insurance payout rates for battlecruisers and battleships even more.
Made the quote easier to read because I definitely and absolutely agree with these points.
and totally remove insurance for caps and supercaps
|
Gavjack Bunk
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 09:56:00 -
[17]
If you open your mouth more than you open your butt, you get fat.
How many degrees in nutrition do you need before you figure it out?
|
Pres Obama
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 09:59:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk If you open your mouth more than you open your butt, you get fat.
How many degrees in nutrition do you need before you figure it out?
what if I have a colostomy bag
|
Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar Solar Nexus. -Mostly Harmless-
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 10:03:00 -
[19]
While I agree with Akita on most things however:
- Removing bounties on missions would be too much. Lowering them however as well as increasing LP payouts and changing loot tables to say broken mods which then would require a Indy Pilot to use mins to fix it.
- Increase demand for minerals. Either through making ships/mods require more or adding mineral requirements for POS/SOV structures.
- Decrease the amount of minerals available. Switch drone region to a hybrid system of minerals+bounties however greatly reducing the amount of alloys that drop. Reduce the refresh rate of ore in belts and/or remove them from being static and only have grav sites.
Increasing minerals cost will cause prices on items to go up while at the same time reducing the influx of isk being generated compared to being blown up. Reducing insurance payout again as well would be a step in the right direction.
There would be alot of whines however since PVP has become so cheap.
|
knobber Jobbler
Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 10:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
There would be alot of whines however since PVP has become so cheap.
Its become more expensive, just there is more ISK to spend. I think CCP shouldn't touch anything until they've got rid of bots and macros and figure out how much of an impact they actually had. Then adjust the economy to suit a botless/macroless EVE.
|
|
Dalek Commander
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 10:40:00 -
[21]
Fine kill bounties, but...
Move level 4 and 5 agents to 0.0, and remove them entirely from high/lowsec. Highsec would have level 1 and 2 agents, and lowsec level 3 agents. Nullsec should always have a higher risk/reward ratio due to the very nature of 0.0 life. Eve is a pvp game at it's core, and hiding in empire making billions of isk risk free should be stopped.
|
JitaPriceChecker2
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 10:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/04/2011 06:48:18
Ideas are like body openings, almost everybody has at least one.
Here's a few. Take one, several or all of them.
Increase sov bills to the levels they were first presented at (and everbody screamed bloody murder until they were nerfed heavily). Introduce a sliding scale bounty-vs-loot system : the higher the truesec, the lower the ISK bounty, and the higher the dropped loot and salvage yield. Replace mission bonus time ISK rewards with bonus LP rewards. Add a lot more USEFUL//new items to the LP stores, reduce LP/item costs, increase ISK costs. Reduce insurance payout rates for battlecruisers and battleships even more. Make it so that all items can be sold on the market (so that they start getting traded there more often, and therefore be taxed more efficiently). Introduce new skills, new blueprints and other NPC-sold useful items. You could literally double the ship and weapon skills by adding "booster" versions that would have the prerequisite of L5 in the basic skill and as effect the increase of the basic skill's effect by anywhere between 1% and 10% per level. Or a second variant to all T1 ships (same model, same paintjob but with different lighting or something else that's easily doable in a hurry) with slightly different slottage//stats. Or a third variant for all too. Make it so that NPC manufacture/research slots follow the rules of offices (too busy, price goes up, not used, price goes down).
And so on and so forth.
Some good ideas there , but you propably allready heard that in this thread.
|
Capt Zulu
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 10:44:00 -
[23]
if u do that the will just create a bot for that
|
Eyup Mi'duck
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 10:56:00 -
[24]
Mission bounties are not the problem, they haven't significantly changed in years. Leave well alone!
The range of isk faucets have steadily increased over time. Research, Hulks, PI, POS, it's all new stuff that has had a cumulative impact on the game. And the botting of course.
CCP first need to sort out the botting faucet and see how things settle down again. If they still need to change things, then it should be to increase the isk sinks to counter the faucets they have introdued over the years. Things like an income tax, higher insurance premiums for toons that keep losing ships. What about monthly maintenance cost for ships - servicing costs, docking fees, etc. And what about the running costs for POS and PI stuffs, it's diddly squat at the moment. Living in Eve is too easy at the moment: apart fom losing ships in pvp, it's all gain and no pain.
|
Carey Amor
Amarr Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 11:00:00 -
[25]
Dont they control inflation with simple/small long term adjustments to the faucets and sinks?
|
Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar Solar Nexus. -Mostly Harmless-
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 11:25:00 -
[26]
Originally by: knobber Jobbler
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
There would be alot of whines however since PVP has become so cheap.
Its become more expensive, just there is more ISK to spend. I think CCP shouldn't touch anything until they've got rid of bots and macros and figure out how much of an impact they actually had. Then adjust the economy to suit a botless/macroless EVE.
Sadly I don't have actual numbers but I do believe that ship prices have been on a gradual downfall for quite some time. The only changes that could make it SEEM more expensive was the reduction in insurance payout. Which at the time people where actually making a profit from losing ships. Which was a flawed system to begin with.
|
knobber Jobbler
Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 11:55:00 -
[27]
I was under the impression ships are going up, especially tier 2 and especially tech 2
I did notice Golems have almost dropped by half since I bought and sold my last one some time ago.
|
Eternus8lux8lucis
Minmatar Whack-A-Mole
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 12:47:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Akita T
Increase sov bills to the levels they were first presented at (and everbody screamed bloody murder until they were nerfed heavily). Introduce a sliding scale bounty-vs-loot system : the higher the truesec, the lower the ISK bounty, and the higher the dropped loot and salvage yield. Replace mission bonus time ISK rewards with bonus LP rewards. Add a lot more USEFUL//new items to the LP stores, reduce LP/item costs, increase ISK costs. Reduce insurance payout rates for battlecruisers and battleships even more. Make it so that all items can be sold on the market (so that they start getting traded there more often, and therefore be taxed more efficiently). Introduce new skills, new blueprints and other NPC-sold useful items. You could literally double the ship and weapon skills by adding "booster" versions that would have the prerequisite of L5 in the basic skill and as effect the increase of the basic skill's effect by anywhere between 1% and 10% per level. Or a second variant to all T1 ships (same model, same paintjob but with different lighting or something else that's easily doable in a hurry) with slightly different slottage//stats. Or a third variant for all too. Make it so that NPC manufacture/research slots follow the rules of offices (too busy, price goes up, not used, price goes down).
And so on and so forth.
Increased sov bills. Great. Whine can be heard flowing forth from the vats and clone bays as we speak. But make it a sliding scale. More people in the alliance you pay more.
Higher the true sec the lower the bounty? Then 0.0 becomes the botters and ratters paradise still. No loot better bounties makes it an ideal way of making pure isk and means they dont have to clean up afterwards.
LP bonus just means people move to agents giving better LP rewards, markets saturate in those areas and away we go.
I like the reduced insurance payouts for ships that people PvP in though. Both t1 and t2 would suit perfectly fine.
Taxation. Boy howdy. Increasing tax rates on items sold in market hubs or areas with increased trade would do a serious job. Increasing taxes on large ticket items and leaving other items alone would help as well. Increasing tax on corporations or individual players that gross or trade more. Trades in a given day on a sliding scale.
Jack the buy prices for super caps and titans. Theyre all one runs anyway. Its the single biggest ticket item and CCP originally never wanted it to be capfleet fight online anyway. Cap ship bpo components for invention for t2 variant for supercaps with insanely low hit values. Or just a straight t2 variant bpC NPC buy. Stress BPC!! But me/peable to some degree.
New ships I think the idea is sound but the balance isnt the graphics its the balancing act of the slots and stats thats the bigger issue. Only way to make this worthwhile again is through an NPC only ship sell. Breaking the "player driven market" idea CCP wishes to create.
Sliding scale on NPC manu/research slots. Definitely. Also a taxation on the job itself. Not just the job fee but on the value of the job itself being put in.
Only other non Akita issue I liked so far was the idea of maintenance costs for ships. Forcing people to pay, even in outposts, to NPCs a maintenance cost for ships as well as having random breakages of ship parts that need to be repaired, though only while in station, would create a fun lil dynamic imo. Though it shall suck for those with large ship fleets.
*********************************************** Where do we go from here? When theres no up and no down anymore...onward....eve
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Raekone
Absolut Profit
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 12:56:00 -
[29]
I don't like the higher-taxation-on-sold-items idea at all, would mean even tighter profit margins for speculators (me) :(
|
Mr Kidd
|
Posted - 2011.04.06 13:04:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ioci
Originally by: knobber Jobbler I agree there is to much ISK. Its probably more down to multiple account holders AFK missioning or running sites and students/bums playing it for 40+ hours a week.
But on the other hand don't kill the game for single account holders who don't play this game like a job.
CCP shouldn't nerf the ISK but balance things out.
This. EVE is already a power grinders game. This just feeds that unhealthy expactation from people.
The original appeal EVE offered was that we could skill offline, we could hold our own against the power grinders even if we have less game time. With the average vet having 60 to 100K+ SP Skills mean nothing in the a mature MMO like EVE and it all comes down to wallet size. EVE doesn't need to change mechanics so it becomes more expensive to play day to day. It needs huge Corp and alliance based one time investment schemes to shrink the wallets and not damage the bulk of the player base that sit on average, 400 Million ISK.
Agreed. As much as Akita is familiar with the game I do believe her suggestions ultimately make it more difficult for the single player. Understanding that CCP wants this game to be team based it also needs to understand that all but a few come into this game as a single player. Making it more difficult for those newer players is not going to promote the game's long term survival.
Removal of isk faucets will have the desired effect eventually. More immediately, the price of goods will go up, unfortunately. If CCP wants to turn off some of the isk faucets then they need to control the price with supply as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |