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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.04.28 11:56:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Kingwood on 28/04/2011 11:57:14 ECM is the worst thing in Eve from a solo/small-gang Perspective (small-gang being less than 4 people), period.
Nothing in Eve locks you out of a fight so completely but ECM. I'd rather fight 3 Curses than random ship + Falcon, because against those 3 Curses I still have the ability to do something (nevermind how slim my chances are).
ECM is the bane of solo PvP'ers - change max locked targets to 1 or something, tbh.
Also, ECCM is trash.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.04.29 14:49:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Kingwood on 29/04/2011 14:51:36 250 men is a small gang now?
Suitonia is spot-on. I'll also add that ECM completely ruins solo and small-gang PvP (small gang not being 250 men).
Don't know how to PvP? Bring a Falcon with you - nothing else required. Don't even have to move during the fight. Btw, last time I ran into a Falcon alt combo I went and made a coffee while my ship slowly died.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.04.29 17:52:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Odo Ven
Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 29/04/2011 14:51:36 250 men is a small gang now?
Suitonia is spot-on. I'll also add that ECM completely ruins solo and small-gang PvP (small gang not being 250 men).
Don't know how to PvP? Bring a Falcon with you - nothing else required. Don't even have to move during the fight. Btw, last time I ran into a Falcon alt combo I went and made a coffee while my ship slowly died.
Mate, it's not solo if you're flying with your alts. And i'm quite familiar with a number of Genos pilots (yourself included) who run with them.
The tears of a hypocrit...
I don't have alts.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.04.29 19:34:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lost Greybeard
(1) If you have even mildly adequate drone skills, your drones should have a control range of 70 km or so.
Stopped reading there. Max drone control range with skills only is 60km - not "70km or so".
Shows you don't know what you're talking about.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.04.30 07:15:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lost Greybeard
Originally by: Cephelange du'Krevviq
It's like other MMOs I've played that included PvP - the masses go with the "flavor of the month" and don't have any inclination towards depth or flexibility in their fights.
Its the danger of people thinking that tactical/strategy games are puzzles with a "solution". They'll look up the way to "beat the game" online without bothering to really consider alternate playstyles or deal with anything but other people that play the same way. PvP games are almost never winnable by optimizing tank/firepower unless those are literally the only two things in the game... in which case it's an FPS, not an MMO.
Yes, clearly people who complain about ECM always fly FOTM and want to beat the game without wanting to deal with other play styles. Are you for real?
When flying solo/duo roaming with a buddy I've killed Falcons + gangmates and killed every other kind of Recon solo, but that doesn't mean that ECM is okay - ECM is a **** mechanic (one of the reasons being the ******ed chance based mechanic) which utterly destroys solo/small-gang PvP.
I also hope you're an alt, because your KB stats are laughable - if you're not I'm just going to file you under scrub and not gonna respond to you anymore.
Also, very nice backpedal you did there. Of course the "70km or so" were a typo. n1n1.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.01 15:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mark Hamill To risk bastardizing a modern cliche'...
PVP in EVE is like a box of chocolates...
and THAT alone is what makes it great. I'm sure if they'd all been flying a Curse, you'd be whining about nerfbatting neuts.
Deal with it.
You can kill a Curse in a Hurricane no problem. Heck, there's a lot of ships which have a fighting chance against a Curse + gang.
Run into a Falcon + gang and it's lol-Permajam. Can try to bump him for some lolz tho.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.01 20:44:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Kingwood on 01/05/2011 20:44:12
Originally by: Alnev Xadi
Originally by: Kingwood
You can kill a Curse in a Hurricane no problem. Heck, there's a lot of ships which have a fighting chance against a Curse + gang.
Run into a Falcon + gang and it's lol-Permajam. Can try to bump him for some lolz tho.
So the problem is basically "thing I can't kill in my hurricane are OP," gotcha.
Because shield-buffer autogank with a possible nano in the lows is the empitome of skill in EVE and how dare any weapons or ewar force it to degress?
Note that I said 'degress' and not 'kill' because unless you're a completely incompetent ****, you still won't die.
GTFO mommy's **** and fly something else sweetheart. Rock, paper, cryontheforums?
Deimos good enough or is it too much FOTM for you also?
Post with your main you dumb ******.
http://genos.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9554116
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.02 22:21:00 -
[8]
Originally by: X Gallentius
Quote: The entire mechanic is broken and way too effective for what it is.
As a bitter Gallente pilot, I was going to say the same thing about the entire Minmatar ship lineup! Thankfully they have one weakness (ECM) that can be exploited.
Should learn how to PvP without a Falcon then
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.03 10:04:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Pod Amarr
Originally by: Suitonia
Originally by: Elmer Dunley Horsekoch Oshi.. butthurt genos-gasm in here.
"Bawww, my angel ships aren't pwnrolling everyone I come across. CCP, please nerf the bad falcon pilots!"
Actually, all of Genos agrees that Angel ships are overpowered (See, the nerf dramiel thread) and we hardly fly them at all. The last time we did mass angel gangs (Aside from Machariels) was February 2010, don't let that stop you from trying to change the subject of ECM balance because you don't want to lose your win button though.
So paper thin jamming bird with no DPS after a needed jam range nerf is not ok. But a unscannable battleship that can go faster then some frigates and snipe from safety. Or very fast autocannon kiting monster still going faster then most frigates is OK. Gotcha your logical reasoning is simply brilliant.
Quoted for stupidity. Please show me the unscannable PvP Machariel fit. And where did Suitonia say that Angel ships are okay?
AUTOCANNON KITING MONSTER
OH GOD ANGELZ
Anyone defending ECM because of "omg we need something to kill those Angel/Minmatar ships" is a scrub. You're a scrub.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.03 11:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: clbo Edited by: clbo on 03/05/2011 11:39:26 Edited by: clbo on 13/45/2911 25:61:99 Hi, me and my friends also fly hurricanes but we do not want to cripple the dual web + scrambler or our nice triple sensor booster fits setup by adding things like ecm/eccm.
CCP please nerf jammers because I cant zoom around at ridiculous speeds while locking down someone and skull **** him with this low sensor strength. Also I do not understand what support ship means, how I can use fof missiles, drones or remote sensor dampeners to keep out of combat a ship that's jamming 9 people at a time and that usually stays at around 70 km away from my auto cannons.
Edit:
Try flying solo for once and then fit an ECCM and still be viable in fights. You are hilariously dumb.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.05 15:20:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Kingwood on 05/05/2011 15:21:29
Originally by: FT Diomedes
WTB, Falcon with 10 mid-slots...
In the alternative, I'm still looking for that solopwnmobile Falcon setup. You know, the one that can kill a competently-piloted PVP ship 1v1?
As the OP learned the hard way, if you have a fleet of 10 ships that doesn't have the ability to hit at medium range, then you are doing it wrong. The days of the Falcon alt warping in and jamming a few ships from the relative safety of 200 km are long past us. The damn things are much closer these days - and therefore more vulnerable.
Eve is a mid-range game these days. Heavy missiles, Scorch, and barrage dominate most "small gang" PVP situations. The new Falcon functions effectively at mid-range, but so does everything else. If you cannot hit a Falcon with one of your ten ships, you are doing it wrong.
Eve is also all about alts these days (has been for a long time, tbh). Good luck actually finding a "solo" fight. These days "solo" actually means a nimble, high-DPS BC/T3, plus your unprobable-gang-boosting alt, your scouting alt to keep an eye out for the rest of my friends, and etc. If you do find a true solo fight, a solo Falcon cannot kill your PVP ship unless your e-honor won't let you disengage, EVER.
ECM is obviously proportionately more effective in a smaller gang. If a gang chooses to go with less gank and tank in favor of a more specialized setup, that should help them in a 2v2 or a 3v3. It may make it possible for them to win a 3v5. There is nothing wrong with that. It should work that way because EW (and logistics ships) are force multipliers. That's what makes PVP in Eve more complicated than mere numbers (excluding the huge mega-fleets where the deciding factor is who has to jump into the system and die in the lag).
My rule of thumb is that at least 1/4 of a fleet should support the fleet in some other way than gank and tank. If I have a roaming cruiser/BC gang with 6 ships, one will be ECM and one will be a logistics ship. Anything less is an unbalanced fleet that deserves to die in a fire.
Another (intentional?) reading comprehension fail.
Noone said anything about a solo falcon - nice use of a straw man argument there.
Maybe I should also define what I mean by "solo", since you and others seem to lack the ability to understand it properly or intentionally misunderstand it in order to help you argument for ECM.
Solo means going out solo (by yourself) fully expecting to run into an enemy gang. Noone is complaining about dying to a gang. We fully know that we will die at some point on our solo roam (note that I do not use a scout alt nor do I use any booster alts). It is our way of playing Eve because it's the most fun for us - the probability of dying is virtually 100% and we all know it and accept it. Fighting outnumbered is what makes Eve fun.
Jump into a 20-man or more gatecamp? I will die, with or without them having recon support. I don't complain.
Jump into a 10-man gatecamp? I will very likely die if they have any recon support at all, if it's a fail gatecamp I might also make it back to gate and get out. I don't complain about dying either.
Jump into a 2-10 man gatecamp or see them in system? This is where it gets interesting - I can choose to engage or run depending on their gang makeup. This is where the Falcon turns a one-sided fight into a complete gank if I don't make it out. While other Recons very likely make it a sure win for the other side I still have the ability TO DO SOMETHING. I can neut the tacklers off, I can decide to take someone down with me (like the Recon) or I play the kiting game trying to split them up. It's a skill game and I'll gladly play it and I do not complain at all if I **** it up and die.
(continued)
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.05 15:23:00 -
[12]
reserved
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.05 15:56:00 -
[13]
Originally by: ValentinaDLM
Originally by: BabyEating Dingo
ECM is the only weapon in the game that completely removes the ability to fight back. Sensor damps, TDs, neuts and webs can all be compensated for to some degree even by a ship that isn't fit with specific counters to them. ECM cannot be.
This is just not true, due to things like FOF missiles, Smart bombs, drones, etc. ECM doesn't completely remove your ability to fight, it hinders your ability to fight back effectively. And a smartbomb isn't fitting a specific counter either, but I tell you what when I see even a medium ship with smartbombs MWDing at my falcon I usually have to GTFO.
With statements like that, it makes me wonder if you even have a falcon alt, if not everyone else does, join the party.
ValentinaDML
Kills Losses 21 Lifetime 19
I hope you're an alt.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.06 07:46:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kingwood on 06/05/2011 07:51:14
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Kingwood ECCM requires a midslot, thus is actually only viable on armor tankers. Armor tankers however are slow, align slow and thus very very vulnerable especially in 0.0. That's the reason you will not find a lot of armor tankers in 0.0 (except for some hardcore gamers like Prom). Shield tankers do not have a spare slot for ECCM without seriously gimping their fit in such a way that you don't even need to go roam. Combine that with the fact that ECCM only changes the probability from being permajammed to about 50-60% chance for a single ECM module (which is the same as being permajammed) and you'll see why ECCM is completely useless for a solo/small gang roamer. You cannot even hope to engage outnumbered anymore.
If only there was a low-slot sensor strength boosting module...
Quote: A Falcon has a place in medium-sized gangs, like all other Recons, but unlike the other Recons it completely dominates small-scale PvP. There's nothing which kills Solo/Small-gang PvP off so completely but ECM.
Just so I have your viewpoint straight in my mind, it's the Falcon specifically or ECM in general? Suitonia is saying one thing, but you're focusing much more specifically on Falcons.
Quote: I do not expect CCP to do anything about ECM since they haven't said anything about ECM since the "nerf", so ECM is probably fine for them (same way Hybrids are fine).
It's a delicate balance issue, I don't think anyone has implied otherwise.
Low-Slot SB mod is useless.
I use Falcons/ECM pretty much interchangeably, thanks for pointing that out. Of course my issue is with ECM in general, but you'll pretty much only see Falcons in gangs - there's not much ganking to be had if the roamer can actually see that you have an ECM boat in gang. Not that it matters much for someone like me who doesn't use a scout alt and jumps into a gatecamp.
Originally by: ValentinaDLM
You know, in the start of this thread, I was just here stating an opinon that I believe, but then the tears were too good to pass up, knowing that you spent the time to look up this char's kill record and completely ignored the fact of what I said that CCP does give you ways to fight back even if they aren't super effective (if they were what would the point be in ECM after all) just made the tears from this thread totally worthwhile. You know what I think I need a second falcon alt after all this.
Please, keep crying, it sustains me.
I was trying to see where you come from. I can't take someone with a non-existant PvP record seriously. Post with your main or prove that you know what you're talking about. Someone with 21 kills and 19 losses is a new player with no clue. You're welcome to keep trolling though.
Originally by: Cearain ECM is powerful but it is not very fun to fly. I would normally only pull it out if I am station camped by a larger force. It allows you to fight other groups when they have more numbers than you. If you nerf it, then you have even fewer options to fight against a numerically superior enemy.
You can fight outnumbered just fine, be it solo or in a small gang against a larger gang.
You have force multipliers in form of the other recons - I'm not sure why you're ignoring them and focusing on the Falcon completely.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.07 14:30:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kingwood on 07/05/2011 14:33:01
Originally by: Noisrevbus Edited by: Noisrevbus on 07/05/2011 14:17:01
Originally by: Suitonia While a flawed analogy, it is more or less accurate, any presence of ECM usually means that a smaller fleet cannot fight a larger one, and often removes absolutely everything else that is skill based and important such as positioning, neuting, other forms of ewar etc. Read Kingwoods post. The problem that ECM imposes is on small gangs is completely overwhelming to the point where it just creates stalemates.
I disagree. If you recommend me reading past posts you should respectively read mine to see my standpoint in summary. I'm definately not against changing the ECM effect into something more enjoyable for everyone, with better scaling. I just disagree with alot of the arguments thrown around and the blunt self-serving conclusions drawn.
This discussion is still stuck in a discretional use of the term "small gang". ECM does not "impose completely overwhelming or stale gameplay" on small gangs. It does to some degree on solo/pair play, or when you are completely outnumbered. The distinctive factor tend to be when they have enough numerical superiority to blanket your team with ECM while still maintaining a comparable overall (tackle, tank, damage etc).
Assuming a 10-man gang still considered small by most definitions, ECM does not do what you describe.
I've read Kingwood's posts and i'm not especially impressed. This discussion was more interesting on page two or so, before it delved into repetition of complaints and demands for killboard stats.
I actually pay close attention to the guy's PvP experience before getting into an argument about PvP balance - someone posting with an alt or his main with ZERO PvP experience at all is a non-factor and someone who I don't take seriously.
I consider anything up to 5 a small-gang. Between 5-10 it's a grey territory leading up to medium sized gangs. 5 and above is also the area where a SINGLE Falcon does not insure a safe gank and becomes vulnerable. Solo/pair roaming (and even 3 man gangs to some extent) are extremely vulnerable to a single Falcon. That is what should be changed - player skill should not be taken out so extremely by a ******ed game mechanic.
I've also killed Falcons solo or when duo roaming, but that was more due to the fact that most players who fly and/or use Falcons are bads. Killing bads does not imply that ECM is fine the way it is.
I've also seen more and more gangs use dual Falcons - how do you propose to counter that with anything less than 10 in gang?
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.07 15:18:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Kingwood on 07/05/2011 15:22:47
Originally by: Noisrevbus
I consider anything up to 30 a small gang, if you ask some big coalition player he probably considers a 50-man gang small, but our personal oppinions doesn't make for much entertaining discussion, now does it? The important bit is rather that i consider anything down to essentially solo play to be a small gang as well, so the entire scope is part of my perspective and there's some congruence for discussion of the more intricate bits (discussing the influence of ECM, rather than personal definitions of group sizes).
That also mean we agree that single ECM ships does not ensure safe ganks at your example of 5+ and we additionally agree that ECM mechanics are an issue in solo/pair play. Yet we do not agree on the assumptions that it ruins small gang gameplay as a whole or that it does not account for player skill. If you once again give some leeway for a perspective outside your own, it could easily be argued that ECM add dimension and complexity (~skill), in an environment that does not entail being alone or completely outnumbering your opponent. The latter hardly ever provide much challenge.
Instead of arguing about differing definitions of gang size we can just agree on ship numbers.
How does ECM add dimension and complexity if you're permajammed? Sorry, but being able to do exactly NOTHING is not what my definition of skill is. You can watch me skillfully make a coffee though while my ship is slowly being shot to pieces while being permajammed (I've done that).
I could also skillfully bump someone. Or skillfully double-click in space trying to align somewhere in the vain hope that somehow the webs and scrams turn off. Arguing that ECM adds skill is really dumb and I have no idea how you're coming to that conclusion.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.07 22:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Kingwood Edit: Btw, in your stated small gang of 30 people (lol) DPS is a better option than a Recon.
lol no it's not.
lol yes it is.
Would you rather alpha a ship outright or just reduce it's fighting ability? Dictors provide tackle.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.07 23:35:00 -
[18]
When Genos was in PL I joined 2-3 PL fleet ops (them fleets being the size of what is apparently a small gang to others..) and they used Dictors mostly. I should know because I was one of the dictors.
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.08 00:09:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mfume Apocal Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 07/05/2011 23:53:37
Originally by: Kingwood Edit: I quite like how you're not including ECM boats tho.
You said recons. If you'd said "ECM boats" I'd show you BRs with massive amounts of Scorpions on the winning side. Nobody uses Falcons or Rooks in larger fights because a Scorpion is cheaper (insurable) and more survivable.
Yes, I meant the Caldari recons of course. So basically you proved my point by stating that they are not used in fleet fights due to survivability and that ECM works "as intended" in medium sized gang engagements which I didn't doubt nor did I state otherwise.
This is a complete derail though, because I'm talking about how ECM screws solo/small gang PvP'ers over. Fleet fights don't concern me at all, all I stated was that once gang size hits a certain threshold adding a DPS ship is a better option than a Recon.
If your fleet runs into a solo-roamer you alpha him - no recon needed. If your fleet runs into another fleet they obviously want to fight because they will have scouts and engagements like that don't just happen by accident. You don't need a Recon which reduces the fighting ability of another ship if you can alpha the ship straight away. Dictors provide needed tackle.
Once a fleet hits a certain size EWar is pretty much a non-factor. I'd still be interested in those Scorpion fleet battles though, just out of interest. Link?
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.08 00:18:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Kingwood on 08/05/2011 00:19:54
Originally by: Mfume Apocal Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 08/05/2011 00:06:15
Originally by: Kingwood When Genos was in PL I joined 2-3 PL fleet ops (them fleets being the size of what is apparently a small gang to others..) and they used Dictors mostly. I should know because I was one of the dictors.
Finally found the BR I was looking for, F-D, I was here (as a member of RAGE).
100 dudes, nearly 20% of them in recons. But recons are bad in gangs larger than 30?
Thundercats fight
Shrug, this was one of the fights I was involved in - not a lot of Recons here (apart from a few Huginns), only Dictors.
I'm still saying that Dictors are a better option than Recons in a pre-planned engagement. Anywho, I'm not here to discuss fleet fights and it's time to go to bed.
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