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Renarla
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Posted - 2011.04.24 07:55:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Renarla on 24/04/2011 07:55:53 http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=9506552
Two fleets of similar size and ship class composition engaged at a belt. We had RR, they did not. They had ECM, we did not. It wasn't close. They lost their one frigate, our entire gang was destroyed. Was it because of a lack of organization? No. Was it because of numbers? Not significantly. Two ships; One Falcon, one Blackbird, kept every single one of our 9 Hurricanes and two Scimitars perma-jammed. They would sit ~100km from us, and when we tried to burn for them they would simply warp off - now we are out of range of the rest of their gang, and they warp back in 100km from us again, and we're sitting ducks. If we hadn't gone after them we would have just there with our thumbs up our butts while we hoped that they would miss a cycle. The fact that there is no counter to ECM without planning ahead of time in fitting means that if you aren't prepared to fight against it, you will lose to it. 100% of the time. If their gang had been half of that size, while keeping the Falcon and Blackbird, I'm fairly confident that the outcome would not have been much different. Our gang was effectively composed of 3 Drakes and an Arbitrator, because the majority of it was removed from the fight entirely before it even began. Any half-witted Falcon pilot will never lose a ship, and will be the sole cause for many victories that a gang would not have otherwise achieved.
In short, ECM is broken.
Proposed fixes (Not all of them, just one): - ECM should break lock, but not prevent locks. To compensate, the cycle time should be reduced. - ECM's strength should be greatly reduced so that it will not be possible for a single module to keep a ship permanently jammed. - Make Sensor Dampening only have one of its two current functions, and give the other function to ECM, and increase the strength of both.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.24 08:04:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Renarla Edited by: Renarla on 24/04/2011 07:55:53 http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=9506552
Two fleets of similar size and ship class composition engaged at a belt. We had RR, they did not. They had ECM, we did not. It wasn't close. They lost their one frigate, our entire gang was destroyed. Was it because of a lack of organization? No. Was it because of numbers? Not significantly. Two ships; One Falcon, one Blackbird, kept every single one of our 9 Hurricanes and two Scimitars perma-jammed.
so they brought a counter for your RR and you didn't bother bringing either ECCM or your own ECM.
working as intended. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Renarla
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Posted - 2011.04.24 08:05:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Renarla on 24/04/2011 08:06:24 Neither gang had prepared specifically for the other gang, it just happened to be that way. Ignore the fact that ECM is effectively a counter to RR, let's say we didn't have the Scimitars and instead had two more Battlecruisers, or any non-Caldari Recon. Would that have made any difference in the outcome? No. Because ECM counters everything.
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Loraine Gess
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Posted - 2011.04.24 08:22:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Renarla Edited by: Renarla on 24/04/2011 08:06:24 Neither gang had prepared specifically for the other gang, it just happened to be that way. Ignore the fact that ECM is effectively a counter to RR, let's say we didn't have the Scimitars and instead had two more Battlecruisers, or any non-Caldari Recon. Would that have made any difference in the outcome? No. Because ECM counters everything.
Except ECCM.
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Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.04.24 08:38:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Loraine Gess ...Because ECM counters everything.
Except ECCM.
ECCM is trash. I take it you are talking out of your arse rather than from combat experience.
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Noz Khan
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Posted - 2011.04.24 09:01:00 -
[6]
I'm sorry, but your post is totally irrelevant to the problem at hand. The problem is, in the words of a certain commander in CSII
ôTheyÆre in System. Arrival is imminent and the fleet composition is poor. TheyÆll not win this fight!!ö
They had the gear to disrupt your RR gang. You chose not to use any ECM yourselves. You chose not to use any ECCM to counter their ECM. You didnÆt get the hell out of Dodge when you knew it was a lost cause, knowing that your target locks would be compromised on both hostile and friendly targets and that you broke your formation trying to burn to ships that you would / should have known, that you would have little hope in getting too.
Either their prior knowledge of your fleetÆs composition, or their ability to get the information on your fleetÆs composition, led them to forming a fleet that would be able to counter your fleet, and led to you getting a butt beating.
Even a complete novice to fleet fights and PvP in general like me, can see that this was going to be a complete one sided fight, which was never going to go your way.
Sympathy vote = -10
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.24 09:02:00 -
[7]
For a logistics pilot to work acceptably under ECM pressure, it needs at least two sources of ECCM, be that midslot local (lowslot doesn't count. The bonus is so small as to be unnoticeable), implants, or projected ECCM.
Whether you consider that balanced or not, it's the current nature of the game. Tell your logis to fit the right implants, or bring support ships to make up the difference.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.24 09:52:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Grimpak on 24/04/2011 09:53:53
Originally by: Renarla Edited by: Renarla on 24/04/2011 08:06:24 Neither gang had prepared specifically for the other gang, it just happened to be that way. Ignore the fact that ECM is effectively a counter to RR, let's say we didn't have the Scimitars and instead had two more Battlecruisers, or any non-Caldari Recon. Would that have made any difference in the outcome? No. Because ECM counters everything.
they came in a more well-rounded game with dps, support and tacklers. you decided to bring RR ships and nothing else.
they also used ECM as a force multiplier, which nullifies any advantage you had in terms of firepower, since that is what ECM is supposed to do.
fair? no, but who said EVE was fair? next time pack 1 ECCM and/or implants on the scimis and you won't have that much trouble, or bring your own ECM.
Originally by: Lady Spank ECCM is trash. I take it you are talking out of your arse rather than from combat experience.
combat experience says that logis with ECCM makes wonders.
beyond that only recons, battleships, drakes or T3's benefit from it, that I agree. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Conor Todaki
1st. Pariah Malefactor corp.
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Posted - 2011.04.24 10:48:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Conor Todaki on 24/04/2011 10:48:22 I have to admit, I really hate falcons. Like reaaaalllyyy hate them but they are an intended game mechanic and I agree that there are plenty of ways to counter if you take the time. (Or a couple of mid-slots for that matter)
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.24 10:52:00 -
[10]
Bunch of newbs think that can just win EVE with 9 canes and drakes.
Wake up already.
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Diablo Ex
Caldari Reasonable People
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Posted - 2011.04.24 10:53:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Diablo Ex on 24/04/2011 10:56:35
Oh the wonders of it all..... They brought ECM!
Let me tell you of an encounter I had with a Falcon. I was flying along in lowsec with my Drake, headed out to run a mission (yes PvE fitted). I was jumped by a falcon, who immediately got a point on me and started jamming me with ECM. I had an ace in the hold (cargo hold that is), I make it a practice of carrying F.O.F. missiles. Those little gems are so underestimated, and so rarely seen in use. I re-armed my launchers, as my passive shield tank was buying me time, and 10-seconds later I was putting DPS on target while perma-jammed. It became a slug-fest, and the Falcon broke off and ran away. As I was PvE fit, with no point of my own, all I could do was watch him leave.
The Morale of the story, pack a few volleys worth of F.o.F. missiles in that cargo hold.
---
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Warzon3
Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2011.04.24 11:19:00 -
[12]
ok let's see 9 canes and 2 simitars perma jammed by a falcon and blackbird so they would have atleast 11 jammers if what you say is true. Thses jammers should have been minmatar jammers so that means they had intel on your gang like as if they knew what ships you were flying o.0 that's some wicked stuff right there.
Now let's see if I can point you to atleast one flaw in your fleet.
Warzon3 shuffles trough the killmails.
Ow yeah found it right here http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9506502 Scimi has no ECCM wich makes scimi a sad scimi if enemy has ecm. Now because one of you scimitars could NOT lock the other scimitar (the other had eccm so atleast had a chance to lock) they were both dead anyway.
now I have no idea who FC was but if I have over half of my fleet being jammed out of a fight I usually call a retreat and rethink my fleet setup.
In short ECM isn't overpowerd you just need to find out how you can counter it. Personally I'd replace the warp disruptors on some of the hurricanes by sensor dampners with range damp scripts 2 or 3 should force the blackbird and falcon to either sit there useless or move in closer to be able to lock again. ----
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Downtime is now extended to 19:00 for patch file verification. This is a very important step that must be done to make sure clients are being corrupted.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.04.24 14:19:00 -
[13]
So a bunch of fools and their one-dimensional gang, possessing no anti-ewar or force projection capabilities, got killed by a superior enemy? Nothing new there, really.
But what is new here is that instead of attempting to learn from their mistakes - to avoid one-dimensional gank 'n' spank gangs, to bring a balanced fleet with the ability to project force across the field - they can only whine about how unfair life is. Sad really.
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:00:00 -
[14]
ECM has many counters
FOF's. Drones. ECCM. ECM. Damps. Neuts. Smartbombs among others.
On the other hand, there are many other ships with less counters. for example
Super capitals
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Zsebbe Zseton
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:12:00 -
[15]
Use ECCM. Use sensor-strengthening LG implants. Use sensor backup arrays. Stop whining.
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Berendas
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:21:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Berendas on 24/04/2011 15:21:20
Originally by: Straight Edged ECM has many counters
FOF's. Drones. ECCM. ECM. Damps. Neuts. Smartbombs among others.
You must be joking, most of those things don't even come close to countering ECM.
FOF's are complete trash, for even suggesting them you just show how desperate you are to defend ECM. Drones are passable, but they take a decent amout of management and even then their AI is clunky at the best of times. ECCM is very weak and you need loads of it to counter even a single jamming ship. ECM - You can't counter something by bringing more of it yourself, that's not what a counter is. Damps are woefully underpowered, at most they will make an ECM ship warp out and come back, which they do anyway. Neuts don't have close to the required range to counter ECM. Smartbombs - same case as FOF's. except worse. "Let's counter 100km jammers with 5km smartbombs! Genius!"
People who try and claim ECM 'has counters' must not play this game... At all...
Edit: Or I must just be getting trolled, but I've seen enough serious posts like my quote that I believe my posting is justified.
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Trader20
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:29:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Trader20 on 24/04/2011 15:34:45 Dam ecm is op. I just use it to get on the killmail.
Edit: Where's all ur ecm?
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Trader20
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:41:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Trader20 on 24/04/2011 15:41:53 ddbl post
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:55:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Berendas Edited by: Berendas on 24/04/2011 15:21:20
Originally by: Straight Edged ECM has many counters
FOF's. Drones. ECCM. ECM. Damps. Neuts. Smartbombs among others.
You must be joking, most of those things don't even come close to countering ECM.
FOF's are complete trash, for even suggesting them you just show how desperate you are to defend ECM. Drones are passable, but they take a decent amout of management and even then their AI is clunky at the best of times. ECCM is very weak and you need loads of it to counter even a single jamming ship. ECM - You can't counter something by bringing more of it yourself, that's not what a counter is. Damps are woefully underpowered, at most they will make an ECM ship warp out and come back, which they do anyway. Neuts don't have close to the required range to counter ECM. Smartbombs - same case as FOF's. except worse. "Let's counter 100km jammers with 5km smartbombs! Genius!"
People who try and claim ECM 'has counters' must not play this game... At all...
Edit: Or I must just be getting trolled, but I've seen enough serious posts like my quote that I believe my posting is justified.
let me give you a good counter that either pulls ECM out of the field, or totally ****s it up:
cerberus. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Berendas
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:57:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Berendas on 24/04/2011 15:57:55
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Berendas Edited by: Berendas on 24/04/2011 15:21:20
Originally by: Straight Edged ECM has many counters
FOF's. Drones. ECCM. ECM. Damps. Neuts. Smartbombs among others.
You must be joking, most of those things don't even come close to countering ECM.
FOF's are complete trash, for even suggesting them you just show how desperate you are to defend ECM. Drones are passable, but they take a decent amout of management and even then their AI is clunky at the best of times. ECCM is very weak and you need loads of it to counter even a single jamming ship. ECM - You can't counter something by bringing more of it yourself, that's not what a counter is. Damps are woefully underpowered, at most they will make an ECM ship warp out and come back, which they do anyway. Neuts don't have close to the required range to counter ECM. Smartbombs - same case as FOF's. except worse. "Let's counter 100km jammers with 5km smartbombs! Genius!"
People who try and claim ECM 'has counters' must not play this game... At all...
Edit: Or I must just be getting trolled, but I've seen enough serious posts like my quote that I believe my posting is justified.
let me give you a good counter that either pulls ECM out of the field, or totally ****s it up:
cerberus.
Missile travel time pretty much negates that, as the missiles get close the ECM ship can just warp out and warp back in
Edited for grammar.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.24 16:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Berendas
Missile travel time pretty much negates that, as the missiles get close the ECM ship can just warp out and warp back in
Edited for grammar.
every second that ECM ship is out of the battlefield is a second more you win to either escape or win over the situation. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Doddy
Excidium.
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Posted - 2011.04.24 16:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Renarla They had ECM, we did not. Was it because of a lack of organization? No.
Does not compute. Also if you didn't have eccm on your scimis you desrved to die.
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Doddy
Excidium.
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Posted - 2011.04.24 16:27:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Berendas
ECCM is very weak and you need loads of it to counter even a single jamming ship.
This is nonsense, single eccm will keep a logi up vs a random ecm boat for most of the fight. Add 2 projected onto that if its an ecm heavy gang that focuses on logis and again you will be up most of the fight, or the dps boats will be unjammed and kill them. Ecm only beats people who either didn't consider it from the start or who have failed in some other way (if you are jammed and can't jump out/dock you failed for engaging ewar you weren't prepared for in the open. If you cant hit or catch ewar boats you failed at range dictation).
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Diablo Ex
Caldari Reasonable People
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Posted - 2011.04.24 16:58:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Berendas
You must be joking, most of those things don't even come close to countering ECM.
FOF's are complete trash, for even suggesting them you just show how desperate you are to defend ECM.
People who try and claim ECM 'has counters' must not play this game... At all...
Oh... right, F.O.F.'s are trash...keep thinking that way. And, yes...I don't play this game ---
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Cartheron Crust
Matari Exodus
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Posted - 2011.04.24 17:22:00 -
[25]
As said one of your scimi's didnt even have ECCM fitted, but did have pro killmail whoring frigate gun. Nice priorities. You also fight on their home turf meaning they could fit their ecm ships to exactly counter your ewar/RR ships. I don't know if they did that, but it would make sense seeing as I never saw Hawk and Lion regularly running round (and so fitting a variety of racial jammers) in ECM ships when in Gal mil.
PS - ECCM does work (at least against the ships, WTFOMGOP ecm drones are another matter). Ignore the whiners in the thread. |
Theodoric Darkwind
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.24 17:29:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Theodoric Darkwind on 24/04/2011 17:30:22 Not much to whine about, the 2 ECM boats they brought perfectly countered the 2 logi boats you brought. Next time bring more logi and your own ECM. Also try to force the engagement to where the ECM boats cant sit out at their optimal.
A falcon and a BB aren't keeping your entire gang jammed, but they can certainly keep both of the logis you brought jammed.
Given both comps even without the ECM they probably would have won, though may have taken a few more losses, they would have just primaried your logi first rather than jam the logi and pop all the canes first.
looks almost like they set up to counter you perfectly, if your arbi was carrying TD it would have done a whole lot of nothing against all those drakes.
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Doddy
Excidium.
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Posted - 2011.04.24 17:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Cartheron Crust
PS - ECCM does work (at least against the ships, WTFOMGOP ecm drones are another matter).
A couple of medium smartbombs between the whole gang deals with any ecm drone blob on the logis. Having them on the logi anchor so the logis can orbit him at 1k or something works well.
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2011.04.24 17:53:00 -
[28]
I don't get these ECM whines.
Just bring one LR HAC or BS. ECCM and/or implant pimped and - more important - bring it slightly delayed. It's the same tactic ECM pilots use. When the ECMs are busy and have targets locked warp in, at range. Note: HACs and BSs have high sensor strength naturally. They will greatly benefit from ECCM.
Guess what happens to the BB or Falcon when facing a 100km Zealot, Cerb, Muninn, snipe Geddon, arty Tempest? If the ECM boat warps off an comes back...just do the same if you're jammed. Game of cat-and-mouse. Just keep them busy and allow your gang to fight the opposing fleet.
Btw...this long range boat can be handy even if no ECM is in sight. -
Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S
R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
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Simply Non Hetero
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Posted - 2011.04.24 18:54:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Straight Edged Bunch of newbs think that can just win EVE with 9 canes and drakes.
Wake up already.
Not empty quoting.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.04.24 20:04:00 -
[30]
There is something going on here that you aren't telling us.
Even with your logi jammed out it shouldn't have been impossible to kill some of the enemy battlecruisers, or their ewar ships.
Did they have logis you aren't telling us about that didn't killmail *****? Did you come in peicemeal? Did you let them kite you at range (say 50km) with drakes? Did you call and follow primaries? Did you tackle targets? I mean I see tackle on your ships.
I'll buy that a falcon and a blackbird jammed 2 scimitars. I won't buy that they were able to jamn everything else.
YOU ****ed up somehow.
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