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Kingwood Amarr Genos Occidere	Posted - 2011.05.01 15:09:00 - [121] Originally by: Mark Hamill To risk bastardizing a modern cliche'... PVP in EVE is like a box of chocolates... and THAT alone is what makes it great. I'm sure if they'd all been flying a Curse, you'd be whining about nerfbatting neuts. Deal with it. You can kill a Curse in a Hurricane no problem. Heck, there's a lot of ships which have a fighting chance against a Curse + gang. Run into a Falcon + gang and it's lol-Permajam. Can try to bump him for some lolz tho.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.05.01 17:55:00 - [122] Edited by: Gypsio III on 01/05/2011 17:59:06 Originally by: Suitonia Bringing a tackleless sniper Apocalypse is just not something that is feasible ... much more survivability than lugging around a glass cannon apoc with your roaming gang... Quote: Caracal, Moa (well), Ferox, Hurricane, Drake, Eagle, Cerberus, Muninn, Zealot, Manticore. Off the top of my head, all of these ships are capable of applying DPS at ~100 km and fitting an ECCM to boot. Note the absence of battleships. All are reasonably mobile ships. Frankly, I expect more intelligence from a Genos pilot.
Alnev Xadi	Posted - 2011.05.01 18:03:00 - [123] Originally by: Kingwood You can kill a Curse in a Hurricane no problem. Heck, there's a lot of ships which have a fighting chance against a Curse + gang. Run into a Falcon + gang and it's lol-Permajam. Can try to bump him for some lolz tho. So the problem is basically "thing I can't kill in my hurricane are OP," gotcha. Because shield-buffer autogank with a possible nano in the lows is the empitome of skill in EVE and how dare any weapons or ewar force it to degress? Note that I said 'degress' and not 'kill' because unless you're a completely incompetent **, you still won't die. GTFO mommy's ** and fly something else sweetheart. Rock, paper, cryontheforums?
ValentinaDLM Minmatar Zaratha Zarati Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.01 19:06:00 - [124] Thin thread made me lol a bit, Maybe it is time to train those info warfare links and bring an unprobable proteus into amamake to help with my unstoppable falcon army. But in all honesty fleet composition wasn't similar really. You had battlecruisers and some logi, they had battlecruisers for DPS, some frigs for tackle, some bombers for cloaky warp ins or ranged DPS, and they had a zealot and cerb for sniping. Even ignoring the commentary by the pilots involved about how they had time to prepare, an all battlecruiser gang just isn't the same as a gang with focused roles. Bring a BB, some tackle, maybe even a rapier and an arazu and have a few less battlecruisers, you would do alot better. It isn't so much that ECM is overpowered as battlecruisers can't do everything.
Multimorph Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2011.05.01 19:11:00 - [125] Funny, I was away from EVE for some time, but some discussions are still the same. I did some calculations on ECM back then, maybe they are still of interest for some people today: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/870370/page/1
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.05.01 20:35:00 - [126] Edited by: Mag''s on 01/05/2011 20:36:59 Originally by: Multimorph Funny, I was away from EVE for some time, but some discussions are still the same. I did some calculations on ECM back then, maybe they are still of interest for some people today: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/870370/page/1 Your actual figures are not welcome in this thread. These ECM whiners demand 100% perma-jamming and that ECCM is completely useless for Christ's sake. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Kingwood Amarr Genos Occidere	Posted - 2011.05.01 20:44:00 - [127] Edited by: Kingwood on 01/05/2011 20:44:12 Originally by: Alnev Xadi Originally by: Kingwood You can kill a Curse in a Hurricane no problem. Heck, there's a lot of ships which have a fighting chance against a Curse + gang. Run into a Falcon + gang and it's lol-Permajam. Can try to bump him for some lolz tho. So the problem is basically "thing I can't kill in my hurricane are OP," gotcha. Because shield-buffer autogank with a possible nano in the lows is the empitome of skill in EVE and how dare any weapons or ewar force it to degress? Note that I said 'degress' and not 'kill' because unless you're a completely incompetent **, you still won't die. GTFO mommy's and fly something else sweetheart. Rock, paper, cryontheforums? Deimos good enough or is it too much FOTM for you also? Post with your main you dumb ****. http://genos.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9554116
ErrorlessQuaak	Posted - 2011.05.01 21:00:00 - [128] This is why I'm training for the falcon. OP's delicious tears are delicious. Nom nom nom.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.01 21:39:00 - [129] Why would he? To give substance to your whining learn how to play. Pod
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2011.05.02 07:58:00 - [130] Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 01/05/2011 17:59:06 Originally by: Suitonia Bringing a tackleless sniper Apocalypse is just not something that is feasible ... much more survivability than lugging around a glass cannon apoc with your roaming gang... Quote: Caracal, Moa (well), Ferox, Hurricane, Drake, Eagle, Cerberus, Muninn, Zealot, Manticore. Off the top of my head, all of these ships are capable of applying DPS at ~100 km and fitting an ECCM to boot. Note the absence of battleships. All are reasonably mobile ships. Frankly, I expect more intelligence from a Genos pilot. And you have already descended into personal attacks. I wasn't directly quoting you or responding to you. I was responding to all of the comments in general. It doesn't really change my point though. If you have 1 person you can bring, to counter ECM, you bring a ECCM'd rook/falcon. There is no better choice. The Moa, Eagle, Zealot, Ferox, Hurricane, Muninn lack DPS at the range required. A standard Falcon fit with 2x SDAs, t2 jamming strength rig, t1 jamming range rig, with 1600 plate. Has just over 15,000 EHP, granted that not a lot of this is sustainable EHP since he will have to warp out sooner if he comes back without any form of Armor reps, but it will still take all of those ships 40+ seconds to force the Falcon of the field the first time. The Cerberus and Drake are waiting 15-20 seconds for their DPS to actually be applied, and in the case of the Drake, will often find itself having to MWD for the Falcon due to lack of range without rigs. Remember that at the same time position for your ships is incredibly important and you want to avoid the enemy ships with your own. Remember, we are talking about small gangs here, I know in bigger sized gangs where you have several LR hacs and longer range engagements become the norm that they are good at destroying and forcing the ECM on the field as soon as it arrives. Essentially, Rook/Falcon usually removes the enemy falcon within 10-15 seconds, everything else takes 40+. Your own Rook/Falcon provides lots more utility and survivability than anti-falcon HACs/whatever, and is arguably more useful when the enemy ECM is gone from the field. Alternatively, fitting ECCM is a better alternative if you don't have an anti-falcon falcon ---

Fon Revedhort Monks of War DarkSide.	Posted - 2011.05.02 09:45:00 - [131] Originally by: Suitonia Your own Rook/Falcon provides lots more utility and survivability than anti-falcon HACs/whatever, and is arguably more useful when the enemy ECM is gone from the field. Pretty much this. Why bother defending yourself in such a clumsy way as ECCM/Sniper (in a small gang? really?) usage when you can go for an offensive ECM setup youself which also 'counters' enemy ECM?
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2011.05.02 11:29:00 - [132] Originally by: Alnev Xadi So the problem is basically "thing I can't kill in my hurricane are OP," gotcha. Because shield-buffer autogank with a possible nano in the lows is the empitome of skill in EVE and how dare any weapons or ewar force it to degress? LOL shield ac canes are some of the easiest ships to kill, but you wouldn't know anything about that because you're an idiot. Seriously anyone trying to argue ecm is fine is a cretin. I'd just flatly remove it from the game. Modules, drones, the whole lot. Change the caldari recons into damping/target painting, who cares even. But we won't ever see this because ecm, being broken, is naturally supported by ccp who already introduced such lovely novelties as faction warfare, planetary interaction and incursion, which is arguably the worst idea introduced into eve ever and makes ecm look almost reasonable in comparison.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.05.02 11:41:00 - [133] Originally by: Suitonia Essentially, Rook/Falcon usually removes the enemy falcon within 10-15 seconds, everything else takes 40+. Your own Rook/Falcon provides lots more utility and survivability than anti-falcon HACs/whatever, and is arguably more useful when the enemy ECM is gone from the field. All this is does is to restrict your own ECM boat into attempting to keep jammed a high-sensor strength opponent, severely limiting your application of ECM to other enemy ships. Meanwhile, your opponents, being competent, are applying DPS to your Falcon, resulting in your Falcon having to warp out and the enemy having won the ECM battle, followed rapidly by the rest of the fight.
Noisrevbus	Posted - 2011.05.02 12:47:00 - [134] Originally by: Suitonia Remember, we are talking about small gangs here, I know in bigger sized gangs where you have several LR hacs and longer range engagements become the norm that they are good at destroying and forcing the ECM on the field as soon as it arrives. Essentially, Rook/Falcon usually removes the enemy falcon within 10-15 seconds, everything else takes 40+. Your own Rook/Falcon provides lots more utility and survivability than anti-falcon HACs/whatever, and is arguably more useful when the enemy ECM is gone from the field. Alternatively, fitting ECCM is a better alternative if you don't have an anti-falcon falcon Once you start talking about Rooks you are almost in that same bracket when longer range engagements become the norm already. In a small gang without Logi support, a single Scimi or w/e, a Rook who isn't at range is at relative risk, and assuming you start looking at multiple logis it doesn't really have the core buffer to operate outside of range in such an environment either. Short said, a good Rook is a ranged Rook (and no ranged ship "magically appears"). With that, a Rook is usually a quite flimsy and poor ship to bring to a small SR roam (1500m/s, no cloak, below group-average buffer), while it's a very good ship in an LR gang, which utilize tactics and group in a manner that suit the ship. Hence, small (-fast) short-ranged gangs tend to have a Falcon or no ECM at all. As for the Falcon, yes, you have an option to jam hostile ECM. However in these small gangs you refer to that's probably second to jamming both charging tackle and tackling recons, as well as hostile logistics, assuming your small Falcon-supported gang is something along the lines of fast HACs (after all, a small roaming gang usually see itself undermanned and initially quite defensive in an engagement). Then we're at a level in the "anti-Falcon Falcon" argument where you could argue similarily to most Recons and all Logistics. You don't necessarily use Logi to counter Logi, but it's needless to say that one side using that ship class well while one side choose to not use it at all, make things appropriately onesided. If two fast HAC gangs clash, it's quite an advantage to be the side with the Rapier or Huginn. For the same reason it's a good idea to use a Falcon, but that it can/should only be countered by "more ECM" is a fallacy. Your primary role in a small-gang Falcon post ECM-nerf is to get into position, so you are not as easily killed or pushed off, to make your ECM count; followed by making sure your friends are not tackled and/or pinned out of position. Past that you may switch to an offensive outlook where you seek to break hostile EW or Logi superiority. Assuming you go for hostile ECM while your friends are scrammed, webbed and can't break hostile logi-buffers, you are clearly doing it wrong.
TaluxA	Posted - 2011.05.02 13:21:00 - [135] People still get the concept of 'small gang' mixed up. For a lot of non-alliance players and corps like genos and podla small gang means 2-5 people. In those situations ecm extremely powerful and will save people from situations where they should've died due to bad piloting. For gangs of that size an ecm boat with eccm is by far the best counter to an enemy falcon. Once you start hitting gangs of ten or so it's reasonable to have a sniper or two that can get rid of recons. If the OP had one cerb they could've changed the fight completely. The problem with rooks and falcons now is that they are very often used just to gank solo/very small gang players. If the small gang knows about the falcon (they will after getting falconised once) it's quite likely they'll never engage that person at all, ever again. So falcons end up preventing quite a huge number of fights from ever happening, or turn potentially interesting conflicts into one-sided ganks.
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.05.02 15:00:00 - [136] Originally by: KingwoodPost with your main you scrub.[/quote i proudly altpost. moreover, i SILHOUTTE altpost. mostly because i just want to see what ccp does to all the shadow portraits when incarna rolls out. besides, any idiot could figure out my main. i have a very unoriginal altname. Originally by: CCP Shadow The trolls have been vanquished.
FT Diomedes Gallente The Fimbriani Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2011.05.02 15:04:00 - [137] ECM, like logistics, is a force multiplier. On its own the ECM ship is useless. As part of a gang, it makes the gang better (assuming the rest of the gang is properly fit). The existence of ECM makes Eve an interesting game. Eve would be a deplorably bad game without different varieties of Electronic Warfare, including ECM. The ability to make my 5 ships better than your 5 ships simply based off my fleet composition is an essential part of Eve. To me, ECM works just fine in most situations. Sure, it sucks to be you when you think you have a two vs two and one of them ends up being a Falcon and you die horribly unable to do anything. I'm a US Marine. I don't **ing fight fair. ** E-honor. Charging into machine gun fire is stupid. If I can find a way to kill you where you don't stand a chance, I'm gonna do it. EVERYTIME. Learn to improvise, adapt, and overcome. If that means bringing your own EW boat to even the odds in your favor, then do that, just know that the next time I'm going to do something different to try to keep my edge. The only problem I have with it is that I would like to see Gallente Recons get some love from CCP. Give me another way to ruin your day. It is annoying to not be able to target anything. Just as it is annoying when your nice, expensive tank gets turned off by a Curse that tackles you while you are ratting and your girlfriend calls. Just as it is annoying when you almost have an enemy carrier dead and his friends manage to rep him at the last second. It is annoying whenever your enemy does something that "seems unfair." But would it be any fun at all to have every fight consist of two fleets sailing parallel to each other blasting away with cannons? --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne
Noisrevbus	Posted - 2011.05.02 16:05:00 - [138] Originally by: TaluxA People still get the concept of 'small gang' mixed up. For a lot of non-alliance players and corps like genos and podla small gang means 2-5 people. In those situations ecm extremely powerful and will save people from situations where they should've died due to bad piloting. For gangs of that size an ecm boat with eccm is by far the best counter to an enemy falcon. Once you start hitting gangs of ten or so it's reasonable to have a sniper or two that can get rid of recons. If the OP had one cerb they could've changed the fight completely. The problem with rooks and falcons now is that they are very often used just to gank solo/very small gang players. If the small gang knows about the falcon (they will after getting falconised once) it's quite likely they'll never engage that person at all, ever again. So falcons end up preventing quite a huge number of fights from ever happening, or turn potentially interesting conflicts into one-sided ganks. I don't disagree with you, though i don't think anyone get the notion of "small gang" mixed up. Let's assume Genos and Podla consider 2-5 to be a "small gang", while most sov-pets consider 40-50 a "small gang", they represent two extremes. Somewhere losely inbetween is reasonably a better example. A 10 man gang per definition can not be anything else than a small gang, while still being far closer to the presumed Genos-Podla definition; yet still fall into the "reasonable to have a sniper" department to cement the argument that a sniper is a reasonable counter in most small-gang action. If you want to argue that "small-gang" only entail yourself, your tech III booster and your friend Bob - then you are being quite narrowminded. Other than that, i kind of agree with you Talux. ECM as it stands have 3 larger issues: 1. Engagements small enough where 1x ECM ship have enough ECM mods to blanket the hostiles. 2. Engagements where you outnumber your opponent enough to blanket them with ECM mods, while you still manage comparable tackle, damage and tank. 3. Defensive engagements (where you can stack racial mods according to hostile racial composition) vs. offensive engagements where you are preset for an average. Most of us understand that 1 is an issue for a select portion of the playerbase, but hardly something to balance the game around. Most of us understand that 2 is an issue in any situation where gang sizes are still small enough that micromanaging ECM modules and thus bringing ECM ships is useful along with other similar modules, like points over bubbles etc. (ie., small-medium gangs). It does however say more about "blobbing" than it does about ECM. Finally, number 3 is the only issue directly tied to mechanics, because as long as you have an unscripted racial system, it's going to be far more powerful to have the perfect situational setup (ie., all Caldari jammers vs. Podla Drakes) over multispecs or a levelled racial setup. The reason that is pretty crap, is that it favours defensive gameplay, where you can dock up and adapt (favouring defensive lowsec use, or sovholding defenders).
TaluxA	Posted - 2011.05.02 16:51:00 - [139] Quote: Sure, it sucks to be you when you think you have a two vs two and one of them ends up being a Falcon and you die horribly unable to do anything. I'm a US Marine. I don't **ing fight fair. ** E-honor. Charging into machine gun fire is stupid. If I can find a way to kill you where you don't stand a chance, I'm gonna do it. Eve isn't real life. You respawn when you die. Let's say you falcon the other guys in a 2vs2 and you win. They'll never engage you again without ecm or a blob. Your falcon alt will probably be noted down and set orange by their corp. In essence you've just prevented several fights from happening in the future. So now you have to wait longer between fights, at least until the next couple of unsuspecting players come along. Eventually you end up with ridiculous situations - like people sitting alt-tabbed on titan bridges for hours and hours, waiting for a cyno alt to drop them on something whilst they play a better game. People like to win I guess, even if it means making the game more boring for everyone.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.02 17:04:00 - [140] Cerberus waiting 15 to 20 seconds to apply DPS? Since when ? Put all 5 toon in cerb with 2 bay thruster rigs. Look at the missile speed. Hell for the fun of it you can even add implants. I think it is over 11000 m/sec. Also when it gets applied it is almost double of the damage all other ships are capable at that range. Pod

Elmer Dunley Horsekoch	Posted - 2011.05.02 17:06:00 - [141] What does :falcon: have to do with this, in general? You get rediculous :solo: (lol?) situations all the time in EVE because everyone and their stupid jersey cousin has an alt for all occasions following them around. It isn't just the damn falcon, it's a loki, tengu, legion, rapier, etc. etc. etc. all of these have more than enough potential to skew a :gudfite: (lol?????????) to "gank" status in a hurry. If you can't be arsed to figure out wether or not your target has an alt recon or some other ship in local or surrounding systems you're just asking to get ****ed. Yeah, blobbing sucks, w/e blob comes to kill you = noskillzzz qqq. Fact is, that's the game you're playing. Get your own alt or get some friends. Actual :solopvp: is rare as hell and you should never, ever, ever count on that being the case.
Gavjack Bunk Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2011.05.02 17:41:00 - [142] Originally by: FT Diomedes I'm a US Marine. Leave your murders and war crimes for The Hague, this is Eve Online.
Digger Nicks	Posted - 2011.05.02 17:48:00 - [143] Originally by: FT Diomedes I'm a US Marine. I don't **ing fight fair. ** E-honor. Charging into machine gun fire is stupid. If I can find a way to kill you where you don't stand a chance, I'm gonna do it. EVERYTIME. Learn to improvise, adapt, and overcome. If that means bringing your own EW boat to even the odds in your favor, then do that, just know that the next time I'm going to do something different to try to keep my edge.
Shiroi Okami Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2011.05.02 21:46:00 - [144] Edited by: Shiroi Okami on 02/05/2011 21:48:20 Originally by: Elmer Dunley Horsekoch Get your own alt or get some friends. This is the dumbest line that blobtards spew again and again to defend blobbing Originally by: Elmer Dunley Horsekoch Actual :solopvp: is rare as hell and you should never, ever, ever count on that being the case. It might be rare but we who enjoy it arent going to drop our standards because of bad game design and human *gotry. At the end of the day falcons are not a force multiplier, which was their intended role. Logistics are a force mutiplier as they are effective in small to large gangs in giving that gang the ability to compete with a larger gang. As soon as a falcon comes up against more targets than it can permajam, it's dead. As such they only see use in situations where no force multiplier is needed. IE blobbing soloers or blobbing an already outnumbered small gang. Or saving ****ed players from their own stupidity when they're losing a machariel to a hurricane and need a falcon to save them. The entire mechanic is broken and way too effective for what it is. ------ My latest pvp video - Freestyle
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.02 22:02:00 - [145] Quote: The entire mechanic is broken and way too effective for what it is. As a bitter Gallente pilot, I was going to say the same thing about the entire Minmatar ship lineup! Thankfully they have one weakness (ECM) that can be exploited.
Kingwood Amarr Genos Occidere	Posted - 2011.05.02 22:21:00 - [146] Originally by: X Gallentius Quote: The entire mechanic is broken and way too effective for what it is. As a bitter Gallente pilot, I was going to say the same thing about the entire Minmatar ship lineup! Thankfully they have one weakness (ECM) that can be exploited. Should learn how to PvP without a Falcon then
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.03 01:21:00 - [147] Edited by: X Gallentius on 03/05/2011 01:24:49 Only trolling a little bit. Getting kited nonstop by Minmatar ships with no option to GTFO other than EC- drones has made me bitter. As with going against Falcons, eventually you learn to avoid engagements (like against Cynabals with your T1 cruiser) you have no chance at winning and move on.
Minigin YOU JUST ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2011.05.03 01:57:00 - [148] im a us marine... i know how to balance video games! . color poastar. Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Noisrevbus	Posted - 2011.05.03 02:00:00 - [149] Originally by: Kingwood You should learn how to PvP proper then. If you can't beat a Falcon...
Elmer Dunley Horsekoch	Posted - 2011.05.03 02:09:00 - [150] Oshi.. butthurt genos-gasm in here. "Bawww, my angel ships aren't pwnrolling everyone I come across. CCP, please nerf the bad falcon pilots!"



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