Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
FT Diomedes
Gallente The Fimbriani Shadow of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 08:54:00 -
[181]
Originally by: DingoEating Baby For the duration of this post, "small gang" will refer to "fleets of fewer than 10 pilots." ... ECM is broken in solo and small gang fights. One Falcon can effectively shut down an entire small gang that isn't sacrificing multiple mid slots to ECCM (and subsequently putting themselves at a severe disadvantage against a fleet that doesn't rely on a falcon).
WTB, Falcon with 10 mid-slots...
In the alternative, I'm still looking for that solopwnmobile Falcon setup. You know, the one that can kill a competently-piloted PVP ship 1v1?
As the OP learned the hard way, if you have a fleet of 10 ships that doesn't have the ability to hit at medium range, then you are doing it wrong. The days of the Falcon alt warping in and jamming a few ships from the relative safety of 200 km are long past us. The damn things are much closer these days - and therefore more vulnerable.
Eve is a mid-range game these days. Heavy missiles, Scorch, and barrage dominate most "small gang" PVP situations. The new Falcon functions effectively at mid-range, but so does everything else. If you cannot hit a Falcon with one of your ten ships, you are doing it wrong.
Eve is also all about alts these days (has been for a long time, tbh). Good luck actually finding a "solo" fight. These days "solo" actually means a nimble, high-DPS BC/T3, plus your unprobable-gang-boosting alt, your scouting alt to keep an eye out for the rest of my friends, and etc. If you do find a true solo fight, a solo Falcon cannot kill your PVP ship unless your e-honor won't let you disengage, EVER.
ECM is obviously proportionately more effective in a smaller gang. If a gang chooses to go with less gank and tank in favor of a more specialized setup, that should help them in a 2v2 or a 3v3. It may make it possible for them to win a 3v5. There is nothing wrong with that. It should work that way because EW (and logistics ships) are force multipliers. That's what makes PVP in Eve more complicated than mere numbers (excluding the huge mega-fleets where the deciding factor is who has to jump into the system and die in the lag).
My rule of thumb is that at least 1/4 of a fleet should support the fleet in some other way than gank and tank. If I have a roaming cruiser/BC gang with 6 ships, one will be ECM and one will be a logistics ship. Anything less is an unbalanced fleet that deserves to die in a fire. --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne |
Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 09:43:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Pod Amarr
Originally by: Suitonia The last page on this thread is a very good example of why it's incredibly hard to have a balanced discussion about ECM. Too many incredibly stupid or terribly bad trolls.
1 It is not trolling that people have different opinions and think that your opinions [not personal] but presented by the members of your corporation are hypocritical. 2 This thread continues in a fine tradition of nonsensical whines that has been going on for a long time. http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1036387/page/1
It is trolling when you respond to several points with massive derails and attempt to steer the conversation massively by simply responding to something which was never written. Read all of the posts you responded to on page 6, then read your answers. I am sorry if English is not your native language but it seems to me that you are trolling. Especially given that you have some very well worded posts which would indicate that your grasp on the English language is fine.
Your first two posts on the page don't really make sense, you post a personal attack/flame to a response to an obvious flame/troll, you then respond to my response which has nothing to do with ECM at all and just a poke at some ******ed troll whos massively out of date telling him we don't fly angel gangs for a year (Aside from the occasional Machariel gang) and you respond with some complete logical fallacy comparing the balance of Angels ships to ECM, even though I agreed in the same post that Angel ships ARE overpowered.
Third post, you respond to "try flying solo with ECCM, it doesn't work" you respond with, give me a solo falcon fit. Another, seemingly purpose massive reading comprehension fail or troll. And finally, are you seriously trying to compare a thread with at least some reasonable and well thought out discussion in it to a meme spam joke thread. Really? You're also posting on an anonymous forum alt, so your ingame experience is left to question.
My conclusion is that you're either a troll or incapable of balanced discussion. ---
|
TaluxA
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 10:27:00 -
[183]
Quote: It should work that way because EW (and logistics ships) are force multipliers.
The falcons I see are most often used to kill solo roamers or pairs of people with zero losses. They don't really get used as force multipliers very often, instead they tend to turn relatively one-sided fights into complete ganks. You can argue that scorpions in fleets are force multipliers, which is true, but falcons usually get used to minimise risk.
|
BabyEating Dingo
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 14:41:00 -
[184]
Originally by: FT Diomedes
Originally by: DingoEating Baby "fleets of fewer than 10 pilots." ...
WTB, Falcon with 10 mid-slots...
Thank you for giving such an excellent example of what a "straw man" argument is. I say "less than 10" and you immediately argue against "exactly ten" because you can't counter my argument.
Originally by: FT Diomedes
I'm still looking for that solopwnmobile Falcon setup.
I never said anything about solo falcons in my post. Another straw man.
Originally by: FT Diomedes
As the OP learned the hard way, if you have a fleet of 10 ships... If you cannot hit a Falcon with one of your ten ships, you are doing it wrong.
Straw man ad nauseum.
Originally by: FT Diomedes
Good luck actually finding a "solo" fight.
I get a lot of solo fights. Feel free to check my killboard and post all about how much I suck.
Originally by: FT Diomedes
If you do find a true solo fight, a solo Falcon cannot kill your PVP ship unless...
Again, never said anything about solo falcons. The point I attempted to make is that a falcon makes soloing impossible. A 2v1, or 3v1, hell I've had a few 5v1 fights where I came out ahead against a gang, all of these become virtually impossible to survive for the solo pilot if the gang has a falcon. Note that I said "survive" and not "win", because obviously killing anything is not an option. A solo pilot engaging a combat ship + logi/rapier/curse/arazu has a chance to either fight or escape. A solo pilot engaging a combat ship + ECM boat cannot defend itself against either ship.
ECM is the only weapon in the game that completely removes the ability to fight back. Sensor damps, TDs, neuts and webs can all be compensated for to some degree even by a ship that isn't fit with specific counters to them. ECM cannot be.
Originally by: FT Diomedes
ECM is obviously proportionately more effective in a smaller gang.
I see you were trying to hide the fact that you agreed with me. Well played.
|
FT Diomedes
Gallente The Fimbriani Shadow of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 14:47:00 -
[185]
Originally by: TaluxA
Quote: It should work that way because EW (and logistics ships) are force multipliers.
The falcons I see are most often used to kill solo roamers or pairs of people with zero losses. They don't really get used as force multipliers very often, instead they tend to turn relatively one-sided fights into complete ganks.
That is the definition of a force multiplier. I may not need to use EW to kill you, especially if I already have 2:1 odds, but if I add EW to the mix, it multiplies my force and maybe it becomes 3:1 odds.
Combat isn't about being fair. The last people to claim it was about being fair were the same people who put on shiny armor and rode down peasants on horseback.
Which is actually pretty close to the attitude of many Eve players... they want to put on shiny armor and ride down helpless peasants, but they don't want to scratch that armor or get any mud on it. When someone throws a big gob of mud on their visor and they can't see anything, they cry about overpowered ECM. --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne |
ValentinaDLM
Minmatar Zaratha Zarati Shaktipat Revelators
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 15:11:00 -
[186]
Originally by: BabyEating Dingo
ECM is the only weapon in the game that completely removes the ability to fight back. Sensor damps, TDs, neuts and webs can all be compensated for to some degree even by a ship that isn't fit with specific counters to them. ECM cannot be.
This is just not true, due to things like FOF missiles, Smart bombs, drones, etc. ECM doesn't completely remove your ability to fight, it hinders your ability to fight back effectively. And a smartbomb isn't fitting a specific counter either, but I tell you what when I see even a medium ship with smartbombs MWDing at my falcon I usually have to GTFO.
With statements like that, it makes me wonder if you even have a falcon alt, if not everyone else does, join the party.
|
Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 15:20:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Kingwood on 05/05/2011 15:21:29
Originally by: FT Diomedes
WTB, Falcon with 10 mid-slots...
In the alternative, I'm still looking for that solopwnmobile Falcon setup. You know, the one that can kill a competently-piloted PVP ship 1v1?
As the OP learned the hard way, if you have a fleet of 10 ships that doesn't have the ability to hit at medium range, then you are doing it wrong. The days of the Falcon alt warping in and jamming a few ships from the relative safety of 200 km are long past us. The damn things are much closer these days - and therefore more vulnerable.
Eve is a mid-range game these days. Heavy missiles, Scorch, and barrage dominate most "small gang" PVP situations. The new Falcon functions effectively at mid-range, but so does everything else. If you cannot hit a Falcon with one of your ten ships, you are doing it wrong.
Eve is also all about alts these days (has been for a long time, tbh). Good luck actually finding a "solo" fight. These days "solo" actually means a nimble, high-DPS BC/T3, plus your unprobable-gang-boosting alt, your scouting alt to keep an eye out for the rest of my friends, and etc. If you do find a true solo fight, a solo Falcon cannot kill your PVP ship unless your e-honor won't let you disengage, EVER.
ECM is obviously proportionately more effective in a smaller gang. If a gang chooses to go with less gank and tank in favor of a more specialized setup, that should help them in a 2v2 or a 3v3. It may make it possible for them to win a 3v5. There is nothing wrong with that. It should work that way because EW (and logistics ships) are force multipliers. That's what makes PVP in Eve more complicated than mere numbers (excluding the huge mega-fleets where the deciding factor is who has to jump into the system and die in the lag).
My rule of thumb is that at least 1/4 of a fleet should support the fleet in some other way than gank and tank. If I have a roaming cruiser/BC gang with 6 ships, one will be ECM and one will be a logistics ship. Anything less is an unbalanced fleet that deserves to die in a fire.
Another (intentional?) reading comprehension fail.
Noone said anything about a solo falcon - nice use of a straw man argument there.
Maybe I should also define what I mean by "solo", since you and others seem to lack the ability to understand it properly or intentionally misunderstand it in order to help you argument for ECM.
Solo means going out solo (by yourself) fully expecting to run into an enemy gang. Noone is complaining about dying to a gang. We fully know that we will die at some point on our solo roam (note that I do not use a scout alt nor do I use any booster alts). It is our way of playing Eve because it's the most fun for us - the probability of dying is virtually 100% and we all know it and accept it. Fighting outnumbered is what makes Eve fun.
Jump into a 20-man or more gatecamp? I will die, with or without them having recon support. I don't complain.
Jump into a 10-man gatecamp? I will very likely die if they have any recon support at all, if it's a fail gatecamp I might also make it back to gate and get out. I don't complain about dying either.
Jump into a 2-10 man gatecamp or see them in system? This is where it gets interesting - I can choose to engage or run depending on their gang makeup. This is where the Falcon turns a one-sided fight into a complete gank if I don't make it out. While other Recons very likely make it a sure win for the other side I still have the ability TO DO SOMETHING. I can neut the tacklers off, I can decide to take someone down with me (like the Recon) or I play the kiting game trying to split them up. It's a skill game and I'll gladly play it and I do not complain at all if I **** it up and die.
(continued)
|
Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 15:23:00 -
[188]
reserved
|
Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 15:56:00 -
[189]
Originally by: ValentinaDLM
Originally by: BabyEating Dingo
ECM is the only weapon in the game that completely removes the ability to fight back. Sensor damps, TDs, neuts and webs can all be compensated for to some degree even by a ship that isn't fit with specific counters to them. ECM cannot be.
This is just not true, due to things like FOF missiles, Smart bombs, drones, etc. ECM doesn't completely remove your ability to fight, it hinders your ability to fight back effectively. And a smartbomb isn't fitting a specific counter either, but I tell you what when I see even a medium ship with smartbombs MWDing at my falcon I usually have to GTFO.
With statements like that, it makes me wonder if you even have a falcon alt, if not everyone else does, join the party.
ValentinaDML
Kills Losses 21 Lifetime 19
I hope you're an alt.
|
Mfume Apocal
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 22:22:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Kingwood ECCM requires a midslot, thus is actually only viable on armor tankers. Armor tankers however are slow, align slow and thus very very vulnerable especially in 0.0. That's the reason you will not find a lot of armor tankers in 0.0 (except for some hardcore gamers like Prom). Shield tankers do not have a spare slot for ECCM without seriously gimping their fit in such a way that you don't even need to go roam. Combine that with the fact that ECCM only changes the probability from being permajammed to about 50-60% chance for a single ECM module (which is the same as being permajammed) and you'll see why ECCM is completely useless for a solo/small gang roamer. You cannot even hope to engage outnumbered anymore.
If only there was a low-slot sensor strength boosting module...
Quote: A Falcon has a place in medium-sized gangs, like all other Recons, but unlike the other Recons it completely dominates small-scale PvP. There's nothing which kills Solo/Small-gang PvP off so completely but ECM.
Just so I have your viewpoint straight in my mind, it's the Falcon specifically or ECM in general? Suitonia is saying one thing, but you're focusing much more specifically on Falcons.
Quote: I do not expect CCP to do anything about ECM since they haven't said anything about ECM since the "nerf", so ECM is probably fine for them (same way Hybrids are fine).
It's a delicate balance issue, I don't think anyone has implied otherwise.
|
|
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 22:28:00 -
[191]
ECM is powerful but it is not very fun to fly. I would normally only pull it out if I am station camped by a larger force. It allows you to fight other groups when they have more numbers than you. If you nerf it, then you have even fewer options to fight against a numerically superior enemy.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
|
Posted - 2011.05.05 23:30:00 -
[192]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 05/05/2011 23:36:41
Kingwood has written an awesome review, I'd say everyone willing to act as a ECM proponent should read Kingwood's post as many times as it will need him to finally understand it.
btw, LOL @ low-slot sensor strength boosting module.
|
ValentinaDLM
Minmatar Zaratha Zarati Shaktipat Revelators
|
Posted - 2011.05.06 01:14:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Kingwood
Originally by: ValentinaDLM
Originally by: BabyEating Dingo
ECM is the only weapon in the game that completely removes the ability to fight back. Sensor damps, TDs, neuts and webs can all be compensated for to some degree even by a ship that isn't fit with specific counters to them. ECM cannot be.
This is just not true, due to things like FOF missiles, Smart bombs, drones, etc. ECM doesn't completely remove your ability to fight, it hinders your ability to fight back effectively. And a smartbomb isn't fitting a specific counter either, but I tell you what when I see even a medium ship with smartbombs MWDing at my falcon I usually have to GTFO.
With statements like that, it makes me wonder if you even have a falcon alt, if not everyone else does, join the party.
ValentinaDML
Kills Losses 21 Lifetime 19
I hope you're an alt.
You know, in the start of this thread, I was just here stating an opinon that I believe, but then the tears were too good to pass up, knowing that you spent the time to look up this char's kill record and completely ignored the fact of what I said that CCP does give you ways to fight back even if they aren't super effective (if they were what would the point be in ECM after all) just made the tears from this thread totally worthwhile. You know what I think I need a second falcon alt after all this.
Please, keep crying, it sustains me.
|
Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2011.05.06 07:46:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Kingwood on 06/05/2011 07:51:14
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Kingwood ECCM requires a midslot, thus is actually only viable on armor tankers. Armor tankers however are slow, align slow and thus very very vulnerable especially in 0.0. That's the reason you will not find a lot of armor tankers in 0.0 (except for some hardcore gamers like Prom). Shield tankers do not have a spare slot for ECCM without seriously gimping their fit in such a way that you don't even need to go roam. Combine that with the fact that ECCM only changes the probability from being permajammed to about 50-60% chance for a single ECM module (which is the same as being permajammed) and you'll see why ECCM is completely useless for a solo/small gang roamer. You cannot even hope to engage outnumbered anymore.
If only there was a low-slot sensor strength boosting module...
Quote: A Falcon has a place in medium-sized gangs, like all other Recons, but unlike the other Recons it completely dominates small-scale PvP. There's nothing which kills Solo/Small-gang PvP off so completely but ECM.
Just so I have your viewpoint straight in my mind, it's the Falcon specifically or ECM in general? Suitonia is saying one thing, but you're focusing much more specifically on Falcons.
Quote: I do not expect CCP to do anything about ECM since they haven't said anything about ECM since the "nerf", so ECM is probably fine for them (same way Hybrids are fine).
It's a delicate balance issue, I don't think anyone has implied otherwise.
Low-Slot SB mod is useless.
I use Falcons/ECM pretty much interchangeably, thanks for pointing that out. Of course my issue is with ECM in general, but you'll pretty much only see Falcons in gangs - there's not much ganking to be had if the roamer can actually see that you have an ECM boat in gang. Not that it matters much for someone like me who doesn't use a scout alt and jumps into a gatecamp.
Originally by: ValentinaDLM
You know, in the start of this thread, I was just here stating an opinon that I believe, but then the tears were too good to pass up, knowing that you spent the time to look up this char's kill record and completely ignored the fact of what I said that CCP does give you ways to fight back even if they aren't super effective (if they were what would the point be in ECM after all) just made the tears from this thread totally worthwhile. You know what I think I need a second falcon alt after all this.
Please, keep crying, it sustains me.
I was trying to see where you come from. I can't take someone with a non-existant PvP record seriously. Post with your main or prove that you know what you're talking about. Someone with 21 kills and 19 losses is a new player with no clue. You're welcome to keep trolling though.
Originally by: Cearain ECM is powerful but it is not very fun to fly. I would normally only pull it out if I am station camped by a larger force. It allows you to fight other groups when they have more numbers than you. If you nerf it, then you have even fewer options to fight against a numerically superior enemy.
You can fight outnumbered just fine, be it solo or in a small gang against a larger gang.
You have force multipliers in form of the other recons - I'm not sure why you're ignoring them and focusing on the Falcon completely.
|
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
|
Posted - 2011.05.06 22:11:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Cearain ECM is powerful but it is not very fun to fly. I would normally only pull it out if I am station camped by a larger force. It allows you to fight other groups when they have more numbers than you. If you nerf it, then you have even fewer options to fight against a numerically superior enemy.
I don't remember when I saw ecm used as means of fighting numerically superior enemy, it's almost always the opposite. You can theorycraft this all you want, but in reality it's simply not true.
|
EhWocksEd
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2011.05.06 23:29:00 -
[196]
the 'ECM lets me fight outnumbered' thing is a logical fallacy It let you fight outnumbered if enemy dont have ECM. if they have equal ECM to you but more number, they win in theory. It's like saying it ok to make Dominix overpowered because you can take on a bigger fleet without Dominix with your smaller fleet with Dominix.
|
Noisrevbus
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 02:41:00 -
[197]
Originally by: EhWocksEd the 'ECM lets me fight outnumbered' thing is a logical fallacy
It's not as much ECM letting you fight outnumbered, as using every tool at your disposal.
A better composition (better preparation, execution...) is usually what let a smaller gang fight undermanned.
Your logical fallacy is a bit blunt, but not necessarily false.
|
Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 12:00:00 -
[198]
While a flawed analogy, it is more or less accurate, any presence of ECM usually means that a smaller fleet cannot fight a larger one, and often removes absolutely everything else that is skill based and important such as positioning, neuting, other forms of ewar etc. Read Kingwoods post. The problem that ECM imposes is on small gangs is completely overwhelming to the point where it just creates stalemates.
---
|
Noisrevbus
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 14:13:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Suitonia While a flawed analogy, it is more or less accurate, any presence of ECM usually means that a smaller fleet cannot fight a larger one, and often removes absolutely everything else that is skill based and important such as positioning, neuting, other forms of ewar etc. Read Kingwoods post. The problem that ECM imposes is on small gangs is completely overwhelming to the point where it just creates stalemates.
I highly disagree, if you recommend me reading past posts you should respectively read mine to see my standpoint in summary. I'm definately not against changing the ECM effect into something more enjoyable for everyone, with better scaling. I just disagree with alot of the arguments thrown around and the blunt self-serving conclusions drawn.
This discussion is still stuck in a discretional use of the term "small gang". ECM does not "impose completely overwhelming or stale gameplay" on small gangs. It does to some degree on solo/pair play, or when you are completely outnumbered. The distinctive factor tend to be when they have enough numerical superiority to blanket your team with ECM while still maintaining a comparable overall (tackle, tank, damage etc).
Assuming a 10-man gang still considered small by most definitions, ECM does not do what you describe.
I've read Kingwood's posts and i'm not especially impressed. This discussion was more interesting on page two or so, before it delved into repetition of complaints and demands for killboard stats.
|
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 14:26:00 -
[200]
So any gang less of 10 is by definition not allowed to exist and just is to be shred apart by anything ECM-infested? Have I got it right?
|
|
Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 14:30:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Kingwood on 07/05/2011 14:33:01
Originally by: Noisrevbus Edited by: Noisrevbus on 07/05/2011 14:17:01
Originally by: Suitonia While a flawed analogy, it is more or less accurate, any presence of ECM usually means that a smaller fleet cannot fight a larger one, and often removes absolutely everything else that is skill based and important such as positioning, neuting, other forms of ewar etc. Read Kingwoods post. The problem that ECM imposes is on small gangs is completely overwhelming to the point where it just creates stalemates.
I disagree. If you recommend me reading past posts you should respectively read mine to see my standpoint in summary. I'm definately not against changing the ECM effect into something more enjoyable for everyone, with better scaling. I just disagree with alot of the arguments thrown around and the blunt self-serving conclusions drawn.
This discussion is still stuck in a discretional use of the term "small gang". ECM does not "impose completely overwhelming or stale gameplay" on small gangs. It does to some degree on solo/pair play, or when you are completely outnumbered. The distinctive factor tend to be when they have enough numerical superiority to blanket your team with ECM while still maintaining a comparable overall (tackle, tank, damage etc).
Assuming a 10-man gang still considered small by most definitions, ECM does not do what you describe.
I've read Kingwood's posts and i'm not especially impressed. This discussion was more interesting on page two or so, before it delved into repetition of complaints and demands for killboard stats.
I actually pay close attention to the guy's PvP experience before getting into an argument about PvP balance - someone posting with an alt or his main with ZERO PvP experience at all is a non-factor and someone who I don't take seriously.
I consider anything up to 5 a small-gang. Between 5-10 it's a grey territory leading up to medium sized gangs. 5 and above is also the area where a SINGLE Falcon does not insure a safe gank and becomes vulnerable. Solo/pair roaming (and even 3 man gangs to some extent) are extremely vulnerable to a single Falcon. That is what should be changed - player skill should not be taken out so extremely by a ******ed game mechanic.
I've also killed Falcons solo or when duo roaming, but that was more due to the fact that most players who fly and/or use Falcons are bads. Killing bads does not imply that ECM is fine the way it is.
I've also seen more and more gangs use dual Falcons - how do you propose to counter that with anything less than 10 in gang?
|
Noisrevbus
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 14:44:00 -
[202]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 07/05/2011 14:46:54
Originally by: Fon Revedhort So any gang less of 10 is by definition not allowed to exist and just is to be shred apart by anything ECM-infested? Have I got it right?
Indeed, troll on.
Either that, or ask your corpmates how they percieve the balance of ECM in their 10-15 man small LR Drake gangs with Falcon-support that roam the north.
Your attempt to twist that around and insinuate i'm being narrowminded because i ask them to broaden their perspective is a pretty cheap shot.
Originally by: I consider anything up to 5 a small-gang. Between 5-10 it's a grey territory leading up to medium sized gangs. 5 and above is also the area where a SINGLE Falcon does not insure a safe gank and becomes vulnerable. Solo/pair roaming (and even 3 man gangs to some extent) are extremely vulnerable to a single Falcon. That is what should be changed - player skill should not be taken out so extremely by a ******ed game mechanic.
|
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 15:01:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 07/05/2011 15:01:53 Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 07/05/2011 15:00:56
Originally by: Noisrevbus Edited by: Noisrevbus on 07/05/2011 14:46:54
Originally by: Fon Revedhort So any gang less of 10 is by definition not allowed to exist and just is to be shred apart by anything ECM-infested? Have I got it right?
Indeed, troll on.
Either that, or ask your corpmates how they percieve the balance of ECM in their 10-15 man small LR Drake gangs with Falcon-support that roam the north.
Your attempt to twist that around and insinuate i'm being narrowminded because i ask them to broaden their perspective is a pretty cheap shot.
As cheap as posting from a nameless alt?
How the hell do 'my corpmates' with their gangs of 10-15 relate to gangs of, say, 2-5?
So, yet again: gang of less than 10 is to be pwnt by anything with ECM - c/d?
|
Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 15:18:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Kingwood on 07/05/2011 15:22:47
Originally by: Noisrevbus
I consider anything up to 30 a small gang, if you ask some big coalition player he probably considers a 50-man gang small, but our personal oppinions doesn't make for much entertaining discussion, now does it? The important bit is rather that i consider anything down to essentially solo play to be a small gang as well, so the entire scope is part of my perspective and there's some congruence for discussion of the more intricate bits (discussing the influence of ECM, rather than personal definitions of group sizes).
That also mean we agree that single ECM ships does not ensure safe ganks at your example of 5+ and we additionally agree that ECM mechanics are an issue in solo/pair play. Yet we do not agree on the assumptions that it ruins small gang gameplay as a whole or that it does not account for player skill. If you once again give some leeway for a perspective outside your own, it could easily be argued that ECM add dimension and complexity (~skill), in an environment that does not entail being alone or completely outnumbering your opponent. The latter hardly ever provide much challenge.
Instead of arguing about differing definitions of gang size we can just agree on ship numbers.
How does ECM add dimension and complexity if you're permajammed? Sorry, but being able to do exactly NOTHING is not what my definition of skill is. You can watch me skillfully make a coffee though while my ship is slowly being shot to pieces while being permajammed (I've done that).
I could also skillfully bump someone. Or skillfully double-click in space trying to align somewhere in the vain hope that somehow the webs and scrams turn off. Arguing that ECM adds skill is really dumb and I have no idea how you're coming to that conclusion.
|
Noisrevbus
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 15:30:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Fon Revedhort
So, yet again: gang of less than 10 is to be pwnt by anything with ECM - c/d?
I do c/d, but you seem afraid to open up to the ~d~ .
|
Mfume Apocal
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 22:48:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Kingwood Edit: Btw, in your stated small gang of 30 people (lol) DPS is a better option than a Recon.
lol no it's not.
|
Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 22:52:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Kingwood Edit: Btw, in your stated small gang of 30 people (lol) DPS is a better option than a Recon.
lol no it's not.
lol yes it is.
Would you rather alpha a ship outright or just reduce it's fighting ability? Dictors provide tackle.
|
Mfume Apocal
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 23:29:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Kingwood lol yes it is.
Would you rather alpha a ship outright or just reduce it's fighting ability? Dictors provide tackle.
Thundercats have no Huginns and Lachs?
|
Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 23:35:00 -
[209]
When Genos was in PL I joined 2-3 PL fleet ops (them fleets being the size of what is apparently a small gang to others..) and they used Dictors mostly. I should know because I was one of the dictors.
|
Mfume Apocal
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
|
Posted - 2011.05.07 23:51:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 07/05/2011 23:53:37
Originally by: Kingwood Edit: I quite like how you're not including ECM boats tho.
You said recons. If you'd said "ECM boats" I'd show you BRs with massive amounts of Scorpions on the winning side. Nobody uses Falcons or Rooks in larger fights because a Scorpion is cheaper (insurable) and more survivable.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |