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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.05.08 00:03:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 08/05/2011 00:06:15
Originally by: Kingwood When Genos was in PL I joined 2-3 PL fleet ops (them fleets being the size of what is apparently a small gang to others..) and they used Dictors mostly. I should know because I was one of the dictors.
Finally found the BR I was looking for, F-D, I was here (as a member of RAGE).
100 dudes, nearly 20% of them in recons. But recons are bad in gangs larger than 30?
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.08 00:09:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Mfume Apocal Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 07/05/2011 23:53:37
Originally by: Kingwood Edit: I quite like how you're not including ECM boats tho.
You said recons. If you'd said "ECM boats" I'd show you BRs with massive amounts of Scorpions on the winning side. Nobody uses Falcons or Rooks in larger fights because a Scorpion is cheaper (insurable) and more survivable.
Yes, I meant the Caldari recons of course. So basically you proved my point by stating that they are not used in fleet fights due to survivability and that ECM works "as intended" in medium sized gang engagements which I didn't doubt nor did I state otherwise.
This is a complete derail though, because I'm talking about how ECM screws solo/small gang PvP'ers over. Fleet fights don't concern me at all, all I stated was that once gang size hits a certain threshold adding a DPS ship is a better option than a Recon.
If your fleet runs into a solo-roamer you alpha him - no recon needed. If your fleet runs into another fleet they obviously want to fight because they will have scouts and engagements like that don't just happen by accident. You don't need a Recon which reduces the fighting ability of another ship if you can alpha the ship straight away. Dictors provide needed tackle.
Once a fleet hits a certain size EWar is pretty much a non-factor. I'd still be interested in those Scorpion fleet battles though, just out of interest. Link?
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Kingwood
Amarr Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2011.05.08 00:18:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Kingwood on 08/05/2011 00:19:54
Originally by: Mfume Apocal Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 08/05/2011 00:06:15
Originally by: Kingwood When Genos was in PL I joined 2-3 PL fleet ops (them fleets being the size of what is apparently a small gang to others..) and they used Dictors mostly. I should know because I was one of the dictors.
Finally found the BR I was looking for, F-D, I was here (as a member of RAGE).
100 dudes, nearly 20% of them in recons. But recons are bad in gangs larger than 30?
Thundercats fight
Shrug, this was one of the fights I was involved in - not a lot of Recons here (apart from a few Huginns), only Dictors.
I'm still saying that Dictors are a better option than Recons in a pre-planned engagement. Anywho, I'm not here to discuss fleet fights and it's time to go to bed.
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.05.08 00:53:00 -
[214]
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 08/05/2011 00:55:33
Originally by: Kingwood This is a complete derail though, because I'm talking about how ECM screws solo/small gang PvP'ers over. Fleet fights don't concern me at all, all I stated was that once gang size hits a certain threshold adding a DPS ship is a better option than a Recon.
Agreed it's a derail. I can agree to disagree on the bolded part. And I never disagreed the ECM in solo/very small gang situations has a disproportionate effect on the battle. I just can't think of any way of balancing it in such a way it's still useful are the larger end of the spectrum while not being an "I-Win" button on the smaller scale.
Quote: Once a fleet hits a certain size EWar is pretty much a non-factor. I'd still be interested in those Scorpion fleet battles though, just out of interest. Link?
BR: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=9306161 YouTube (raw): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHwM3mHD-Z0
tl;dr: Without Scorpions shutting down AHAC DPS, their Maelstroms would have been melted in seconds when they were fighting inside multifreq range.
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Jamradar
Minmatar Autocannons Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.05.08 12:32:00 -
[215]
Thread was tl;dr But it's very very satisfying to see people QQ'ing over ecm. It makes our jobs much more rewarding. Of course, it blows hard if ecm gets rained down upon me, but that's how the world turns.
Also, those canes have an extra mid slot after prop/point/and(or)web, either have some of the canes set with eccm or have them remote eccm the logis. Also, I don't see any fast ships in your fleet, which probably added more woe to your situation as no one could've burned out to them ecm boats sitting 100 off.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.05.08 17:27:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Kingwood Once a fleet hits a certain size EWar is pretty much a non-factor.
This is nonsense, and can be proven to be nonsense via simple logic as well as by the reality of Scorpion spam.
If an ewar module reduces an enemy's DPS by n% in a small gang fight, then it also does so in a fleet fight. The counter-argument goes that the ewar boat(s) get killed immediately and hence has no effect.
But this is specious. It's correct when applied to single ewar boats, as a single ewar boat cannot hope to degrade the incoming DPS of an entire fleet to any significant degree, but not when applied to ewar on the fleet scale. This is the same principle as stating that while personal EHP may not save you when a fleet shoots you, the actual fleet fight, ignoring all RR and other tactical issues, can be described by sigma-DPS vs sigma-EHP.
Sufficient ewar boats - as in Scorpion spam, but also as Drake blobs each with a single TD fit - are capable of applying sufficient ewar to significantly degrade the DPS projection of an opposing fleet, tipping the balance of DPS vs. EHP vs. RR. There are certainly problems with distributing the ewar correctly - you can't call a primary for ewar, clearly, but these are not insurmountable. You can simply instruct your pilots to apply their ewar to a pilot whose name starts with the same letter as theirs.
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