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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2011.04.25 13:26:00 -
[1]
Hello industry guys I am thinking about setting up a medium POS for research and invention, but I have no experience with POS at all. I'm not even sure if it's worth time spent or not. Have some questions and I'd really appreciate your help
1) First of all POS type. it should be caldari or gurista POS I suppose? they have most CPU 2) What should I research? you won't tell me you secrets I suppose, but at least point to right direction 3) How fast will a POS become profitable? When will I be able to cover initial expenses including BPO(s) cost? 4) How passive income is? More or less similar to PI? 5) Is 0.0 POS > lowsec > Hisec? why? 6) what is expected income from a properly set up POS?
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2011.04.25 13:54:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Greg Huff on 25/04/2011 13:58:04
Originally by: Tub Chil 1) First of all POS type. it should be caldari or gurista POS I suppose? they have most CPU
Caldari (typically) for high-sec
Originally by: Tub Chil 2) What should I research?
Whatever you want. Ships take the most research time so are done often. But it all depends on what you want to do... production, BPC sales, invention, Researched BPO sales... and how intensely you work everything.
Originally by: Tub Chil 3) How fast will a POS become profitable?
Depends what you do with it. If you're running 1 lab and only using a few slots it may never become profitable.
Originally by: Tub Chil 4) How passive income is? More or less similar to PI?
POS's really don't fall under passive income. If you get a routine set up for rotating copies/production/research it can be low attention, but never forget to monitor all your slots and fuel levels.
Originally by: Tub Chil 5) Is 0.0 POS > lowsec > Hisec? why?
Not sure what you're asking. Cost? Possible income? ?? You can do things in 0.0 that you cannot do in low-sec or high-sec. There are things you can do in low that you can't in high. If you're focus is going to be research and invention you will probably want to stay in high-sec.
Originally by: Tub Chil 6) what is expected income from a properly set up POS?
42
Yes, these answers are quite vague but that because it really is all dependent on what and how you do it. Can you get extremely wealthy? Yes. Can you lose billions? Yes (you can even do both)
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Kate Yeats
Caldari Drone Reprogramming Center
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Posted - 2011.04.25 15:57:00 -
[3]
Adding a little more into Greg's replies
Originally by: Tub Chil 1) First of all POS type. it should be caldari or gurista POS I suppose? they have most CPU
Guristas and Dread Guristas will offer the same CPU but more shielding and lower fuel costs. They are much more expensive though. Follow Greg's recommendation and go with a straight Caldari tower, at least until you know if this whole research thing will pan out for you.
Originally by: Tub Chil 2) What should I research? you won't tell me you secrets I suppose, but at least point to right direction
As Greg says, you need to go with what your expectations are, ship prints usually have at least a month of research on them to attract a sale, can you wait that long to turn a profit? Ammo prints can be researched much quicker, but you might not find a market for them. Try to find a gap, Projectile prints in Amarr, Missiles in Hek and fill it.
Originally by: Tub Chil 3) How fast will a POS become profitable? When will I be able to cover initial expenses including BPO(s) cost?
Count on enough ISK to cover set up, fuel and BPOs to run for 3 months. If you aren't making a profit by then, give up and move on.
Originally by: Tub Chil 4) How passive income is? More or less similar to PI?
Depends on what you research, if you're researching fast prints, you'll be logging on every day or two. Don't forget you'll want to fill your POS slots, so that means 2-3 characters on a small, more on mediums/larges which can be a lot of re-logging and clicking. Changing jobs every couple of weeks for ship or cap BPO research can be much more attractive.
Originally by: Tub Chil 5) Is 0.0 POS > lowsec > Hisec? why?
In terms of research a hi-sec POS is far more preferable due to being safe unless war dec'd. POSes have other benefits in low-sec and 0.0 that extend beyond just research.
Originally by: Tub Chil 6) what is expected income from a properly set up POS?
Take your fuel bill (you have worked out your monthly fuel bill already, right?) and you should expect at least that back in profit. Now keep in mind that is based on the assumption you know what you are doing, have researched the blueprint market, run your slots near 24/7, research prints people want and find buyers for those prints.
As Greg pointed out, yes there is the potential to make good money from a POS, but there are also plenty of people who lose a lot of money with them as well.
|Drone Reprogramming Center - Currently Recruiting| |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
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Posted - 2011.04.25 16:10:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 25/04/2011 16:12:44
Originally by: Tub Chil 1) First of all POS type. it should be caldari or gurista POS I suppose? they have most CPU
There really is little point to anything other than a Caldari-type control tower in hisec.
However, I can vouch that a Minmatar tower is a good second choice, as it is well balanced in regard to the amount of shield, CPU, and grid it has. It also has 50% EM resist and 25% thermal resist, which are the two primary ones used to attack a POS with (lasers). Minmatar control towers can easily be made into deathstars.
I don't recommend faction control towers because of their steep initial cost; you are better-off buying a regular control tower and investing your savings in BPO or materials.
I've owned a Dread Gurista medium, Domination large, and now a Caldari large setup as an EWAR-star.
Originally by: Tub Chil 5) Is 0.0 POS > lowsec > Hisec? why?
I'd like to add that hisec industry has one big advantage over lowsec and nulsec: in hisec you don't need any POS defenses online until your corp is wardec'd, so the full grid and CPU of the control tower is available for industry.
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Amaha Masane
Caldari Avalon Advanced Research and Development Eclectic Collective
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Posted - 2011.04.25 18:19:00 -
[5]
As everyone else stated, Caldari towers pretty much have everything you'll need for hi-sec research and would be the best choice.
That being said, a good second choice might be a tower matching the faction space you're in. If you're only intending to have one tower(and for hisec I don't see why you wouldn't) supplying your own fuel via PI/ice mining near your POS might help mitigate some of the cost. Note that I said MIGHT; do the math/research. If PI'ing/mining your fuel can save you money versus just selling the damn stuff, go for it.
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Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
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Posted - 2011.04.25 18:30:00 -
[6]
If a POS is destroyed, is the actual control tower guaranteed to be destroyed or is it potentially lootable, like anchored modules?
I ask because I'm curious if a faction control tower is a more attractive wardec target than a regular ol' Caldari Large. I'm not quite at the point where I can set up my own POS, but I will be soon.
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Proton Power
Amarr Retirement Retreat
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Posted - 2011.04.25 18:49:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kethas Protagonist If a POS is destroyed, is the actual control tower guaranteed to be destroyed or is it potentially lootable, like anchored modules?
I ask because I'm curious if a faction control tower is a more attractive wardec target than a regular ol' Caldari Large. I'm not quite at the point where I can set up my own POS, but I will be soon.
Going to be nice and respond a bunch of jibber jabber, deal with it and you may learn to make a few isk :)
To answer this question go with Caldari Large, 1st there are no more Faction POS BPC's dropping right now, meaning they are stupidly expensive and would take a very long time to pay for themselfs in fuel cost.
If I was a pirate corp I would go after faction towers first, harder to kill maybe, but the target has a lot more to lose, 1bil isk faction tower or 200mil isk large.
If you do get attacked put online lots of EW (Jammers), few hardners, few large guns, tons of medium and fill the rest with small. For a corp to attack a pos setup like this in high sec is a pain and not worth ther time for almost nothing.
No they can not get the tower unless you unanchor it. They can however get any modules you have on the POS.
Do not put your BPO's into the POS, keep them in the station. So at most you lose some reserach time, some labs and 1 large 150-200mil isk tower. May seem like a lot but all of that is much cheaper than 1 faction tower.
Also once your tower goes into reinforced mode your EW will turn off, have extra guns already anchored to online to make it difficult again for them to attack.
Research: I found that starting off Ammo Sets like L/M/S Hybird / Projectile / Crystals sold really well and a very nice markup, and cheap to start off with. The Racial Comp sets sell well, missile sets, rig sets. If you see what the idea is here, its all about sets of bpo's that are used daily. Ammo will always be needed.
If you have isk you could reserach bc bpo's and capital comp bpo's. YOu need to be patiant with these and sell to people that want them, nto people that want to re-sell them to make isk out of it. Not as much work doing these either.
Copying: You can do 1 of 2 things, make one of each of those ammo sets I mentioned above for you to copy, make copies and sell the sets. (I am not sure its worthwhiel anymore to do this tbh since bpo's are so cheap in todays age). Other option is copy things that are being invented. These normally sell for 100-200k each. Do a bit of research here adn be ready to change on a moments notice.
Hope this helps some.
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Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
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Posted - 2011.04.25 20:27:00 -
[8]
Thanks for the (quite thorough) reply. It mostly lines up with what I've read in the various POS resource threads.
I may still opt for a faction tower (specifically, a large Dread Guristas) but I'll be careful to do the math on the fuel savings and figure out the equivalent ROI.
Obligatory footnote directed at hisec pirate corps: yes, a more expensive tower makes me more vulnerable to extortion even if the attackers can't actually loot the tower, but I'll give the isk to mercs to chase you off, not you.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.04.25 20:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kethas Protagonist Thanks for the (quite thorough) reply. It mostly lines up with what I've read in the various POS resource threads.
I may still opt for a faction tower (specifically, a large Dread Guristas) but I'll be careful to do the math on the fuel savings and figure out the equivalent ROI.
Obligatory footnote directed at hisec pirate corps: yes, a more expensive tower makes me more vulnerable to extortion even if the attackers can't actually loot the tower, but I'll give the isk to mercs to chase you off, not you.
I will offer some advice that you may or may not take:
If you're new to invention don't go putting up a large POS in the beginning. Your first month or so (maybe less if you hit on a good market) should be with a small tower, with perhaps 1 advanced and 1 ordinary mobile lab plus one assembly array. With these you can try out products to get the hang of it at minimal cost. Once you find yourself some good products, i.e. things you've copied/researched/invented/built/sold yourself and have run the numbers on your spreadsheet (including thinking about the volume of sales too), then you can think about selling up the small POS and upgrading to a medium or large.
When it comes to the POS itself, I would go for one that uses the isotopes in nearby ice-fields, rather than a straight Caldari, unless your intention is to totally max out on labs (!) - assuming you aren't in Caldari space already ofc. Then you can mine the ice (for me it's a few hours a week), refine it and ship it to your POS without paying over the odds. Also if it's high sec and your corp is not one that gets war-decced a lot, you can set up without defences - but be prepared to strip it down and dock it up if you get a dec. This is another reason to keep the POS away from major hubs, so it's less likely to get attention.
I don't know if other people agree with me on this, but it's what I've found works best for me :p.
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Hockston Axe
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.25 22:23:00 -
[10]
ItÆs my opinion that if you arenÆt at the point where you go, æwow I could really benefit from a POS with what IÆm doingÆ that you arenÆt ready for one. ThereÆs a lot of decent advice in the replies, but if youÆve got to ask how to make money off it, youÆre probably going to lose money with it.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.04.25 22:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hockston Axe ItÆs my opinion that if you arenÆt at the point where you go, æwow I could really benefit from a POS with what IÆm doingÆ that you arenÆt ready for one. ThereÆs a lot of decent advice in the replies, but if youÆve got to ask how to make money off it, youÆre probably going to lose money with it.
The one reason you might want to invest in a small right from the start is because making BP copies is a giant pain in the behind in empire, plus you get time bonus from the labs. It's an investment in R&D in the truest sense, as long as the commitment isn't open-ended of course.
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2011.04.26 10:13:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Celia Therone on 26/04/2011 10:13:58
Originally by: Kethas Protagonist
I may still opt for a faction tower (specifically, a large Dread Guristas) but I'll be careful to do the math on the fuel savings and figure out the equivalent ROI.
Obligatory footnote directed at hisec pirate corps: yes, a more expensive tower makes me more vulnerable to extortion even if the attackers can't actually loot the tower, but I'll give the isk to mercs to chase you off, not you.
One benefit of a faction tower is less *time* spent hauling fuel. Hauling fuel sucks, so this is a good thing. Obviously how good a thing depends on the size of your wallet. ;)
Also, don't post on the character that is going to set up a tower, that's just asking for trouble.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.04.26 12:13:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Celia Therone
One benefit of a faction tower is less *time* spent hauling fuel. Hauling fuel sucks, so this is a good thing. Obviously how good a thing depends on the size of your wallet. ;)
One trip to market in a freighter and/or orca per month. It isn't as if it's going to be in a WH with a low-sec static. At least I don't think it is.
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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2011.04.26 13:16:00 -
[14]
Thanks guys didn't expect so many useful answers. already set up large caldari tower on SISI, let's see how it goes
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.26 15:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tub Chil Thanks guys didn't expect so many useful answers. already set up large caldari tower on SISI, let's see how it goes
This is good. Friends don't let friends set up medium or small POS's. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.04.26 16:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Tub Chil Thanks guys didn't expect so many useful answers. already set up large caldari tower on SISI, let's see how it goes
This is good. Friends don't let friends set up medium or small POS's.
I'm not sure how putting one up on Sisi will simulate market conditions. There are other things to think about here - including alt research, invention and build capacity (largely skill based). There's no point in a large tower with 9 mobile labs if you can only do 10 invention/copy jobs at a time (V/V). So I'm not really too sure what the point of a large tower would be in that case (apart from if you want to actively defend it ofc).
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
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Posted - 2011.04.26 19:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Burnharder
Originally by: Celia Therone One benefit of a faction tower is less *time* spent hauling fuel. Hauling fuel sucks, so this is a good thing. Obviously how good a thing depends on the size of your wallet. ;)
One trip to market in a freighter and/or orca per month. It isn't as if it's going to be in a WH with a low-sec static. At least I don't think it is.
The fuel bay of a large control tower is 110,000 m3 which lasts about 20 days or more, so a freighter can haul a couple of months worth of fuel.
We have 2 regular large control towers in a C5. We have no problems keeping them fueled. We typically get a random wormhole to hisec in our system or the neighboring C5 static about once a week or so.
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2011.04.27 00:59:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: Burnharder
Originally by: Celia Therone One benefit of a faction tower is less *time* spent hauling fuel. Hauling fuel sucks, so this is a good thing. Obviously how good a thing depends on the size of your wallet. ;)
One trip to market in a freighter and/or orca per month. It isn't as if it's going to be in a WH with a low-sec static. At least I don't think it is.
The fuel bay of a large control tower is 110,000 m3 which lasts about 20 days or more, so a freighter can haul a couple of months worth of fuel.
We have 2 regular large control towers in a C5. We have no problems keeping them fueled. We typically get a random wormhole to hisec in our system or the neighboring C5 static about once a week or so.
For a while I was running three low sec large towers without a jump freighter or reliably present corp members. Saving even 10% of the time that it took to fuel them would have added up to hundreds of millions of isk/year. Time is money.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.04.27 09:12:00 -
[19]
you don't have to run it permanently.
I personally only set up POS to do some heavy duty copying for later invention. Medium Caldari tower, 6 AML, 2 alts copying stuff to max number of runs for later invention. Maybe Large Caldari if you have more researchers...
After I do a few thousands of copies (takes a few days) I remove POS and go inventing in the NPC stations. The reasons are following: 1. if you invent in a POS, you have to login more frequently which is very inconvenient for me. Just when I start doing some other stuff the damned alarm whizzles and I have to do another clickfest session... Can't do anything like that. 2. You usually can't invent at night (unless you don't sleep or have a different TZ corpmate) so you basically waste fuel all that time. 3. As you keep your POS up for prolonged period of time, the probability of random wardec increases. Not a problem for a POS but if you run missions somewhere you will be losing money by waiting end of war docked... 4. if you ever want to add another inventor alt, you'll need to increase POS size which means more large investments on additional AML's and more POS fuel. While with NPC stations all you have to do is find another station with free invention slots. 5. if you use guns to ignore wardecs, that means less AMLs and hence lower efficiency.
so I personally don't see a reason to use research POS for anything other than the copying (since there are absolutely no free NPC copy slots in whole empire).
Maybe if something changes and there won't be invention or manufacturing slots either, one would have to own a high-sec POS in order to produce anything .. but not right now.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.04.27 09:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
so I personally don't see a reason to use research POS for anything other than the copying (since there are absolutely no free NPC copy slots in whole empire).
The main reason it's a win is because of the time bonus it gives with the base time multiplier. But it really depends what the turnaround time on your items is, how many you're making, how many you can sell and so forth.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.04.27 10:29:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 27/04/2011 10:30:26 yeah if all you do in EVE is inventing and building stuff, it makes sense. but I assume invention as a kind of side, semi-passive profit, so I can't switch invention jobs all day long - except maybe spend a few days exclusively for invention, once per a few months, to make target number of BPCs.
If I wanted to increase invention productivity I'd rather make a few more invention alts with basic skills (enough for 40% invention probability) and place them in NPC stations. If an item requires more than 40% invention chance to be profitable, it is usually not worth bothering with.
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Zifrian
Deep Space Innovations
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Posted - 2011.04.27 13:56:00 -
[22]
The last few replies are basically my thoughts as well. Unless you want to go full on with production and log in/spend time in game frequently, then a high sec POS is really only good for copies and the occasional ME research. My pos is just max copies and I do everything else at an NPC station because it is 1000xs easier.
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