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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2011.04.27 18:21:00 -
[1]
Everyone knows that the Tengu is certainly the best unprobeable mission runner against kinetic-weak enemies.
However, my limited playing around in EFT has shown that there's a bit more competition against non-kinetic weak enemies, especially when the sometimes significant damage reduction due to defenders is taken into account. Though I'm not positive that there is better ship than the Tengu, I'm curious if anyone else knows for sure.
Is there a better unprobeable ship for lvl 4 missions? Preferably one with fully selectable damage types, but em/therm would be acceptable if someone could make a legion come out ahead. I'd prefer to avoid sensor strength implants, a sig-radius reducing loki is a possibility but one that I'd also prefer to avoid if at all possible.
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ValentinaDLM
Minmatar Zaratha Zarati Shaktipat Revelators
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Posted - 2011.04.27 18:32:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Pharos Pharos Everyone knows that the Tengu is certainly the best unprobeable mission runner against kinetic-weak enemies.
However, my limited playing around in EFT has shown that there's a bit more competition against non-kinetic weak enemies, especially when the sometimes significant damage reduction due to defenders is taken into account. Though I'm not positive that there is better ship than the Tengu, I'm curious if anyone else knows for sure.
Is there a better unprobeable ship for lvl 4 missions? Preferably one with fully selectable damage types, but em/therm would be acceptable if someone could make a legion come out ahead. I'd prefer to avoid sensor strength implants, a sig-radius reducing loki is a possibility but one that I'd also prefer to avoid if at all possible.
Well, you could do selectable damage with the drone subbed legion or proteus, but since you can probe drones out you would have to recall them every time someone entered local, and at that point why not just fit a cloak and warp to a safe rather than be unprobable.
TBH, I have a hard time imagining a unprobable legion that does better than a tengu shooting thunderbolt missiles. The loki doesn't have much range or doesn't have much damage depending on the fit, so I would still think the tengu would do better in PVE applications being unprobable.
Now if you want to operate deep in 0.0 without having to loot your missions or mine for minerals to make ammo, then the legion is your only choice good, for everything else it is hard to imagine it being better than the tengu. I mean I looked on EFT alot, and I never came up with a setup that beats the tengu as an unprobable mission runner against amarr rats (for sansha's missions) but I will concede it is possible I missed something.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.27 18:57:00 -
[3]
I would say no there isn't a better option then a Tengu for a really basic reason, namely Range(tm). The Tengu's cruiser sized HMLs have battleship like range which means you can start applying damage sooner than any other cruiser based weapon system. So even if other weapons have more DPS, the HML's ability to hit first often makes up the DPS difference and then some.
Following closely is damage at range. Missiles do consistent damage at short and long range (i.e. no falloff or transversal to worry about,) which gives you the freedom to maneuver however you want. This makes speed tanking a breeze in the Tengu. The only drawback is that long range makes volley counting a little more difficult.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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I Be Sad
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Posted - 2011.04.27 19:08:00 -
[4]
Getting a decent legion fit on par with any tengu is asking the impossible (literally), and you may rest assured that a tengu firing em missiles will do a better job in most cases.
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Kneebone
K-H Light Industries
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Posted - 2011.04.27 19:33:00 -
[5]
Unprobable Claymore maybe? |
Captain Nares
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Posted - 2011.04.27 20:24:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Captain Nares on 27/04/2011 20:24:19
Originally by: Pharos Pharos
Tengu with non-kinetic missiles. And unfortunately this isn't a joke.
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2011.04.27 20:25:00 -
[7]
What about the loki? I'm assuming the proteus is right out. Command ships do seem like an interesting alternative. I'll throw up the EFT numbers for the legion fit I had when I get back from work, they seemed shockingly decent.
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Captain Nares
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Posted - 2011.04.27 20:40:00 -
[8]
Non-kinetic Tengu 600 dps @ 100 km. Loki 700 dps @ 2+20 km + pack of lights. Proteus 750 dps @ 2+10 km + pack of lights/mediums.
Now lets remember that drones are probed easily. And choose Tengu...
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Adrie Atticus
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
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Posted - 2011.04.27 20:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kneebone Unprobable Claymore maybe?
You can play more with a Claymore!
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2011.04.27 21:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Captain Nares Non-kinetic Tengu 600 dps @ 100 km. Loki 700 dps @ 2+20 km + pack of lights. Proteus 750 dps @ 2+10 km + pack of lights/mediums.
What exactly are the fits you're looking at there? Even with Furies, which make the Tengu rather weak on the tank, a quad faction BCU tengu with six launchers only hits 568 for me. Without furies, it has a measly 444. Are you counting implants?
Meanwhile, the legion gets 521@52+6.5 and is faster - and I'm inclined to believe that the faster time to kill versus frigates and lack of DPS loss to defenders makes this more equal than it first appears.
Proteus seems out because rails are awful and drones won't work for obvious reasons. I'll see how the loki can do then look at commmand ships.
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Adian Grey
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Posted - 2011.04.27 21:30:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Adian Grey on 27/04/2011 21:34:17
Originally by: Pharos Pharos
Originally by: Captain Nares Non-kinetic Tengu 600 dps @ 100 km. Loki 700 dps @ 2+20 km + pack of lights. Proteus 750 dps @ 2+10 km + pack of lights/mediums.
What exactly are the fits you're looking at there? Even with Furies, which make the Tengu rather weak on the tank, a quad faction BCU tengu with six launchers only hits 568 for me. Without furies, it has a measly 444. Are you counting implants?
Meanwhile, the legion gets 521@52+6.5 and is faster - and I'm inclined to believe that the faster time to kill versus frigates and lack of DPS loss to defenders makes this more equal than it first appears.
Proteus seems out because rails are awful and drones won't work for obvious reasons. I'll see how the loki can do then look at commmand ships.
T2 ROF rig + 4 faction BCU's with ZMM1000 and ZMH2000 implants = 650ish DPS with Thunderbolt Fury. Drop 4th BCU for Backup Array and you still get about 620ish DPS.
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2011.04.27 21:48:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Pharos Pharos on 27/04/2011 21:49:39 Hmmm and with similar levels of shiny the Legion can only get 630@37+13 or 572@44+13 and is down to 500 at 50k+.
Perhaps I'll have to try both to see if the legion's pluses - no reload time, easier engagement of frigates, higher dps up close, and no defenders - make up for the range disadvantages.
Interestingly, the dps calculations are actually in the Legion's favor when reload time is taken into account, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that will really make.
Edit: Didn't even see the mention of implants needed for furies above, which I'd prefer to avoid - that makes those Tengu dps numbers look a lot less attractive, especially since I'm not sure on the cost-benefit of faction missiles.
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Mavnas
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Posted - 2011.04.27 22:10:00 -
[13]
Should also account for the reduced chance of wasting volleys in a Legion. I know with my NH, for every 22km a target is out from me I have to turn off the launchers one volley earlier. This gets pretty stupid killing cruiser/BC sized ships at max range. (I might fire 6 times into an enemy that only needs 3 if I'm not paying attention.) This isn't something that happens with turrets.
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Sjugar
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Posted - 2011.04.27 23:23:00 -
[14]
Well if it's only about being unprobable......try an unprobable machariel, works fine.
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Judicator Saturnius
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2011.04.27 23:36:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mavnas Should also account for the reduced chance of wasting volleys in a Legion. I know with my NH, for every 22km a target is out from me I have to turn off the launchers one volley earlier. This gets pretty stupid killing cruiser/BC sized ships at max range. (I might fire 6 times into an enemy that only needs 3 if I'm not paying attention.) This isn't something that happens with turrets.
That waste is pretty trivial considering the alternative, which is operating at scorch optimal for long range and using mf+web to try and swat web/scram frigs that get in close.
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2011.04.28 00:22:00 -
[16]
Like I said, I'd prefer to avoid implants, so Nightmare and Mach are sadly off the table from what I can work out. And from my experience taking out scram/web frigates at range isn't a real problem with Scorch, so if wasted volleys and reloads eat into my dps even more with a tengu the legion continues to look better and better.
I'll most likely have an unprobeable dram/other frigate to swat tacklers/occasionally draw aggro if it proves necessary.
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Judicator Saturnius
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2011.04.28 00:53:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Judicator Saturnius on 28/04/2011 00:54:01
Originally by: Pharos Pharos Like I said, I'd prefer to avoid implants, so Nightmare and Mach are sadly off the table from what I can work out. And from my experience taking out scram/web frigates at range isn't a real problem with Scorch, so if wasted volleys and reloads eat into my dps even more with a tengu the legion continues to look better and better.
I'll most likely have an unprobeable dram/other frigate to swat tacklers/occasionally draw aggro if it proves necessary.
I'll assume you're trolling at this point. Have fun in your legion if reason cannot sway you. I do admit it's the best looking t3, but functionally there's not a single thing it is good at compared to the tengu besides running armor ganglinks.
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2011.04.28 01:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Judicator Saturnius Edited by: Judicator Saturnius on 28/04/2011 00:54:01 I'll assume you're trolling at this point. Have fun in your legion if reason cannot sway you. I do admit it's the best looking t3, but functionally there's not a single thing it is good at compared to the tengu besides running armor ganglinks.
I certainly started off expecting to be using a tengu, but 580 dps@40+10 as compared to 537@100 with CN thunderbolts (since implants, and thus furies, are off the table) really doesn't seem like that bad of a tradeoff, given the downsides of missiles. If you can show me where I'm wrong with those numbers, I'd gladly save money and use the tengu that I've got.
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Judicator Saturnius
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2011.04.28 01:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Pharos Pharos
Originally by: Judicator Saturnius Edited by: Judicator Saturnius on 28/04/2011 00:54:01 I'll assume you're trolling at this point. Have fun in your legion if reason cannot sway you. I do admit it's the best looking t3, but functionally there's not a single thing it is good at compared to the tengu besides running armor ganglinks.
I certainly started off expecting to be using a tengu, but 580 dps@40+10 as compared to 537@100 with CN thunderbolts (since implants, and thus furies, are off the table) really doesn't seem like that bad of a tradeoff, given the downsides of missiles. If you can show me where I'm wrong with those numbers, I'd gladly save money and use the tengu that I've got.
Wrong with the numbers? Nothing is wrong with them at all. They're accurate. What's confusing me is that you're ok with getting less than 50dps (which will actually be harder to apply) for a full 50km loss in range. And that is the tip of the iceberg.
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2011.04.28 02:21:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Judicator Saturnius
Wrong with the numbers? Nothing is wrong with them at all. They're accurate. What's confusing me is that you're ok with getting less than 50dps (which will actually be harder to apply) for a full 50km loss in range. And that is the tip of the iceberg.
Fair enough, as someone who finds applying missile dps more difficult at times I'll just chalk it up to a difference in preference. I'll probably end up trying both and seeing which one I prefer in the end anyway.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.28 02:52:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pharos Pharos
Originally by: Judicator Saturnius Edited by: Judicator Saturnius on 28/04/2011 00:54:01 I'll assume you're trolling at this point. Have fun in your legion if reason cannot sway you. I do admit it's the best looking t3, but functionally there's not a single thing it is good at compared to the tengu besides running armor ganglinks.
I certainly started off expecting to be using a tengu, but 580 dps@40+10 as compared to 537@100 with CN thunderbolts (since implants, and thus furies, are off the table) really doesn't seem like that bad of a tradeoff, given the downsides of missiles. If you can show me where I'm wrong with those numbers, I'd gladly save money and use the tengu that I've got.
HMLs fire every 3.8 seconds. A Legion with an RF afterburner can travel 737m/s, so every 2,800 meters the Legion has to travel to get into range, the Tengu has fired off a volley. The Legion has a 6.4 to 8.8 align time depending on whether the AB is on, so there's an additional volley or two if you have to turn around.
If the Tengu gets off one extra volley, that's 3.8 seconds * 537 DPS = 2,041 damage. The Legion does 43 DPS more than the the Tengu, so that's 2041 damage / 43 DPS = 47s, which means that for every long range volley the Tengu gets off, the Legion has to spend 47 seconds in laser range to catch up to the Tengu's DPS.
If the missile volley is reduced to 5 missiles by a defender, the Legion needs 40 seconds.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Usahina
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Posted - 2011.04.28 19:51:00 -
[22]
Are people seriously considering furies for an unprobable ship?
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.28 21:21:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Usahina Are people seriously considering furies for an unprobable ship?
Yes.
With a couple of ECCM IIs and Talon implants in slots 2-6, Furies are unprobeable and you can use 4xBCUs in the lows. Max firepower at the risk of losing ~600M isk in implants if you're podded.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.28 23:41:00 -
[24]
Answer : Tengu with non-kinetic missiles
Drone cruisers still die in 2 hits 1M bounty BS's still drop in half a minute frigs still get instapopped. Only difference is Battlecruiser needs 3 hits to die instead of two on angel/gurista rats.
All other ships dont come close at all really.
Loki and proteus has no damage projection at all. they simply suk.
I can unprobeable my FURY MISSILE using tengu (6 launcher) with only two ECCM. use implants.
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Captain Nares
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Posted - 2011.04.29 03:54:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Usahina Are people seriously considering furies for an unprobable ship?
You may either use 3 ECCM + pricy fit w/o talons or 2 ECCM and talons to make fury fit unprobable.
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Evolution1979
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Posted - 2011.04.29 06:14:00 -
[26]
What i am wondering, is why would you use the expensive ammo on rats? Obviously its for more dps, but is it really worth it? If you use normal missiles, a mission will take you about 5 minutes longer probably, but will be alot cheaper in ammo.
Or am i incorrect here?
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bartos100
Killer Koalas R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.29 06:57:00 -
[27]
i think it depends on what you plan to do
if you plan to spend long times in locations where it might be hard to get more ammo a legion might be a better idea as the ammo for a legion is a lot smaller then for a tengu and you use a lot less of it (if you go t1 crystals you will never run out :)
but if you have easy access to more reasonably cheap ammo then it depends on personal choise and you go with what you think is best
so if you have the skills and the isk to do it just try both and see what you like best :)
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.04.29 07:06:00 -
[28]
you can do with only 1 ECCM and a backup if you also have a loki with evasive manoeuvring link. it's easy to make boosting loki unprobeable as well
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