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Kattia Boma
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Posted - 2011.05.04 11:49:00 -
[1]
Soon after starting eve I set up a second account and started to duel box. I have never done it often, but am now considering starting another/some more accounts and taking it abit more seriously. I was just wondering where I could find some confirmation on the exact rules regarding bots, firstly to see if setting up hotkeys that would have end results on multiple clients would be classed as botting (making starting the code pretty pointless), or if infact more complicated hotkeys can be set up to preform more elaborate key combinations or sequences, mabey even different ones on different clients. I really have no ideal where the line is drawn in this game so I thought id ask. I know alot of other games take the stand that, as long as the characters actions are a result of an actual human key press all is good. I hope this is the case in EVE. I also know other games are fine with anything that doesnt incorporate delay timers.
Any confirmation or direction to that confimation would be great. Thankyou
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foksieloy
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.05.04 12:07:00 -
[2]
Edited by: foksieloy on 04/05/2011 12:08:50 As far as i know official stance is, if you have to be present at your computer for your macro keybinds to work, it is allowed.
There was a topic a while back about a guy actually ducktaping many mouses and keyboards, and controling 8 ships at the same time because devs told him he cannot use macros (he wanted to prove a point). Then the ruling was changed, and he was allowed to use one mouse and keyboard to control multiple accounts.
I think he is still around flying a blob of ravens solo.
Anyway as long as you have to be present, and your key press doesn't let your clients work for hours on end alone, it is allowed.
If i am wrong, i am sure someone from CCP or a ISD member will correct me.
EDIT: Story: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20002273-1.html _______________________ The best thing in EvE is Barrage M. |
I'thari
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.04 12:19:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kattia Boma I really have no ideal where the line is drawn in this game so I thought id ask. I know alot of other games take the stand that, as long as the characters actions are a result of an actual human key press all is good. I hope this is the case in EVE. I also know other games are fine with anything that doesnt incorporate delay timers.
Basicly that's the rule for every game out there: as long as you don't use thirdparty programm to automate your actions, you're fine. Other thing is that everyone understands it however they feel like up to "let's ban for mouse driver use"/"if I have to press a key that launches bot I'm not breaking rules".
With EVE: standard drivers are fine, your self-made program that sends commands to multiple clients - not so much. Never really saw GM post actual borderline "this one is what we'll ban for, and this one is fine to use" so it's up to them - case-to-case basis, so to speak. Tho, as long as you don't play 23.5/7 I doubt there'll be evidence enough for CCP to ban you. |
Kattia Boma
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Posted - 2011.05.04 12:42:00 -
[4]
Well I do play about 20 hours a day :p Does that make me a bot ?
I wasn't planning on anything too serious, just 2 or 4 (not decided) duplicated alts all doin the same thing.
does anyone know if it is possible to play an account now entirley with keyboard? I was thinking of keys to automate all alts tabbing through overview to the same point and targeting, but the more i think about it the more messy its gonna get.
Anyway, thanks for you help.
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foksieloy
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.05.04 13:10:00 -
[5]
Targeting, among other things, requires mouse use as far as i know. _______________________ The best thing in EvE is Barrage M. |
Kattia Boma
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Posted - 2011.05.04 13:13:00 -
[6]
alt+space (i think) should set focus on overview, up and down will navigate from there, and target is a programable shorcut in eve, so i think it could be done.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.05.04 13:18:00 -
[7]
Alt+Space to select overview, up/down arrows to select, press Ctrl to target - no click is necessary. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
kriot Thellere
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Posted - 2011.05.04 14:45:00 -
[8]
there was a presentation help by ccp abot account security and botting at fanefst this year. womeone asked the same question you did and it was stated that so long as you have to be present at your computer to input the comand its within rules. so using a marco keybiding to turn one keystroke into 10 is ok, however using a script automaticaly triger that keybinding is not.
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gfldex
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Posted - 2011.05.04 15:51:00 -
[9]
You have to file a petition and ask a GM. In case you get banned a GM will kindly ignore any forum post. 22:29:48 Notify Capital Armor Repairer I is too big to be fitted on Apocalypse Imperial Issue |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.05.04 19:35:00 -
[10]
One of the problems you have here is that the more automated you make something the closer you come to getting into trouble.
There are as many different ways of doing something as there are people - so - you're not going to get a blanket approval for whatever it is you do from CCP - just general guidelines, like being at your computer.
Mining AFK - is allowed. You fly your miner out there - start it mining then do something else for a while. Then when you come back and check you find the asteroid depleted or your cargo hold full - and YOU target another asteroid or take measures to free up space in your hold.
Most KB/Mouse drivers lack enough programability to be considered bots.
One thing I can't see - is how you would tell that the asteroid is depleted or that your cargo hold is full - without a full blown bot. So - if you're not doing that - and just initiating the locking process with a KB Macro you're probably fine.
However - if you are on 20 hours a day - every day - for months - then you might well attract CCP's attention. If you get banned - then you're in the position of having to prove yourself innocent which you may not be able to do.
You see there's also another side to this - which is that it is illegal to share accounts.
We had someone else on a good bit of time ago who was talking about how he and his family all shared an account and they'd use the account at different times of the day - so that while each of them wasn't playing some kind of death march hours - the account was. That is illegal too - and if they notice they'll do something about it.
In short - if you start doing something that isn't "humanly" possible - then you're going to get looked at - and most humans aren't able to play 20 hours a day for an extended period of time.
For someone to play for an extended period of time on occasion isn't all that uncommon but to do it every day is.
So - as long as you aren't using a bot and avoid what most people would consider extreme behavior you'll probably be fine.
. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.05.04 21:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kattia Boma à firstly to see if setting up hotkeys that would have end results on multiple clients would be classed as botting (making starting the code pretty pointless)
Programs like "Synergy" have been okay so far, where all they do is broadcast your keystrokes to all your computers (or EVE instances).
Originally by: Kattia Boma more complicated hotkeys can be set up to preform more elaborate key combinations or sequences, mabey even different ones on different clients.
That would just be like having Logitech G15s connected to each computer running different keysequence macros, right? I don't see a problem there.
Quote: I really have no ideal where the line is drawn in this game so I thought id ask.
Originally by: kriot Thellere there was a presentation help by ccp abot account security and botting at fanefst this year. womeone asked the same question you did and it was stated that so long as you have to be present at your computer to input the comand its within rulesà
CCP Sreegs stated unequivocally that from now on, they will be enforcing the letter of the EULA, TOS and Terms of Use. If what you want to do sounds like it might cross the lines defined in those documents (as grey and fuzzy as they are), I'd suggest not doing that. When the question about Synergy was asked, CCP Sreegs didn't say, "Synergy is okay" - he waffled about the Terms of Use, TOS and EULA. Then the question was asked a second time, and he said the same thing.
The impression I got was CCP Sreegs wasn't actually sure that Synergy is okay.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Kattia Boma
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Posted - 2011.05.04 23:07:00 -
[12]
Yeh, just as I thought.
This issue is clear as mud. Im guessing if I was useing a couple of computers with the keyboard duplicated accross accounts to clear a C6 every day or something like that with my own personal army of tengus it would become a problem.
Thats not my plan (far too grand for me) but I would like to think that if it was, and I was useing the isk inside the game for gamings purposes that wouldn't be a problem.
Besides, I mainly want to multibox for pvp, and Im yet to hear of a bot that can pvp successfully.
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Enu Zembasi
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Posted - 2011.05.05 09:12:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kattia Boma Besides, I mainly want to multibox for pvp, and Im yet to hear of a bot that can pvp successfully.
Maybe there ain't any, but as a programmer I don't see why that would be hard. In fact, such bot could be much more successful than man manned fleet. Maybe it would have to be slightly assisted by a human, but otherwise it would be able to make extremely well timed maneuvers and even actual working formations. He would be able to calculate when some ship needs to move back for repairs, decision making in a split of a second and such. Human would just need to supervise and maybe make some general decisions, like "move to system X, retreat, engage" and so on.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.05.05 11:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kattia Boma Thats not my plan (far too grand for me) but I would like to think that if it was, and I was useing the isk inside the game for gamings purposes that wouldn't be a problem.
How is getting ISK at a faster rate than one person playing each character "normally", not going to be a problem?
Using Synergy to move the mouse pointer over to the second (or third, or twelfth) computer is already borderline IMHO. If you had 12 computers without remote control software, it would certainly be taxing to play each one normally, wouldn't it?
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Rez River
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Posted - 2011.05.06 06:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mara Rinn Edited by: Mara Rinn on 04/05/2011 22:09:03 Does someone using Synergy (or a mechanical equivalent such as duct-taping mice together) to broadcast keystrokes to his fleet of 15 drakes have an accelerated rate of acquisition of ½stuff+ compared to someone trying to fly 15 drakes without software or mechanical aid?
IMHO the answer to that question is clearly, "yes!"
I have reservations accepting your argument in this case. Because there are two view points: - Per person, YES, he has an accelerated rate of acquisition of "stuff". - Per account, NO, each account is working like there is one person controlling that account.
CCP already made a precedent for the case for "per account" as each account can have skills on the queue. i.e. the person is acquiring skills at an accelerated rate. Also PI, research, manufacturing, research agents, all things that makes a person have an accelerated rate of acquisition.
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Salpad
Caldari Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2011.05.06 11:23:00 -
[16]
Originally by: kriot Thellere there was a presentation help by ccp abot account security and botting at fanefst this year. womeone asked the same question you did and it was stated that so long as you have to be present at your computer to input the comand its within rules. so using a marco keybiding to turn one keystroke into 10 is ok, however using a script automaticaly triger that keybinding is not.
Human keypresses will come at slightly random intervals, whereas scripted keypresses will only be as random as the script makes them, and I presume he typcail script does not utilize RNG timing at all.
So, I'm thinking, CCP might have something in the client to detect and flag/log keypresses that are too regular. But if a human initiates various script sequences, then the intervals between those initiations will look (and be) random.
-- Salpad |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
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Posted - 2011.05.06 16:23:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/05/2011 16:25:03
You are only allowed to do 1:1 event mapping. Mapping multiple events to a single event is not allowed, as this would give you an advantage over others.
Examples of allowed: * A double-click mouse button event can be mapped to a single click mouse button event. * Any single keypress event can be mapped to any other single keypress event. * A single keypress event can be mapped to a single mouse button event. * A single mouse button event can be mapped to a single keypress event.
If it seems like it is saving you effort, it is probably not allowed.
When in doubt, petition a GM with the question.
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Richmaint
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Posted - 2011.05.13 11:58:00 -
[18]
I run multiple accounts ice mining and can confirm to a reasonable degree that ccp does notice if actions are to consistently periodic. I use a watch with a count down timer that repeats every 410 seconds so that I know when to empty my mackinaw's cargo hold. I don't use any macro's or programmed key strokes at all but I do get tested frequently by CCP. I have been playing Eve for 6 years and have kept a sense of humor about things but am considering taking a break for a month to gain a fresh perspective. My advice to new players would be to go the mission runner route because there are better rewards and fewer frustrations. When I come back and start playing Eve again I might join my Bros 0.0 corp. and go whole hearted into pvp! One of the great things about Eve is you can always change your direction when you get tired of what you have been doing! Have fun!!!
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.05.14 14:49:00 -
[19]
Apologies if someone else mentioned this and I forgot about it or didn't see it ...
But ... one thing about multi boxing - is that if you are running two accounts - you are NOT going to be as effective as TWO PEOPLE.
You do have some advantages in that each character in your fleet knows what all the other characters are going to do (because you are playing all of them) but that in no way makes up for the fact that you've still got to go around and service all those ships.
I mine with a number of ships but mining really lends itself to that as the cargo holds are large and the cycle times on the miners are long.
However, running missions with two ships - I don't really have the ability to control any more - unless I'm using F.O.F. missiles or an auto targeting module. My experience with both is ... mixed. The problem with both is that they won't shoot at what you want them to shoot at. I was getting jammed last night so I loaded my F.O.F. missiles and turned them on - and things went OK for a while ... then the missiles decide there's some evil structure that just needs to be taken out and started shooting that. My last experience with the Auto targeting module - it was locking evil gas clouds ...
So ... while there is some advantage to having multiple accounts ... don't kid yourself that you're creating some kind of a little navy for yourself that is going to go out and really kick ass. You're little fleet is going to be at a severe disadvantage against an equal number of actual players. For PVP - all your tactics are going to have to be structured around that fact.
Multi boxing PVP is not something I would encourage anyone who isn't already a well skilled veteran to try. Get to where you really know what you're doing with just one ship before you try adding another to the mix - or all you're likely to do is find a faster way to burn through ships.
. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.14 15:36:00 -
[20]
The issue is clear as mud, but if you play 20 hrs daily, and you go from 1 client to 4 clients, it's likely to be flagged as a bot. In which case they're likely to ban you.
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Aderata Nonkin
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.16 14:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kattia Boma Well I do play about 20 hours a day :p Does that make me a bot ?
20 hours a day?!
It doesn't make you a bot, however, I suggest you enjoy the sun a little bit while you still have the chance.
ĉIf you are not big enough to lose, then you are not big enough to win.Ĉ |
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