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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
528
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 15:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have seen mining threads coming from many different directions.
Make asteroid belts dangerous, (less dangerous to mining ships specifically) Make mining interactive and more challenging. Get rid of high heels on miners, (at least the male ones) Make bots unhappy without making players sad.
And last but not least: Rogue drone's drops compete with mining. (Yes, I know CCP already handled this as a problem, it just inspires this idea)
So I thought: Is there a way to tie all of these together?
Introducing the Bee Keeper Mining Plan.
You can mine directly, current system, or you can let the rogue drones do it for you.
To begin mining, anchor a Drone Caller, DC, onto an asteroid. This simple device emits a subspace signal that rogue drones identify as a scout reporting back a healthy source of ore.
At that point a hive base somewhere in the galaxy opens up a drone bridge, with the DC acting as the cyno beacon. The first drones through are not directly useful, but you must let them work before you can make your ISK.
These first drones immediately begin constructing an outpost hive. This could be seen as the drone equivalent of a POS. This outpost hive produces three items: Gatherer drones (they do the mining) Transport drones (they have jump drives to bring home the ore) Guardian drones (they protect the outpost hive)
Here is how the main activity works: The outpost hive sends out the gatherer drones to the asteroids. The gatherer drones mine the asteroids, and return to the hive. Here a basic processing is performed to produce drone ores.
The drone ores are then loaded onto the transport drones. The transport drones fly out to a cleared area, where a 2 minute timer begins on them. At the end of the 2 minute timer, the drones jump drive takes them somewhere...
Meanwhile: The guardian drones patrol all activity within 250Km of the outpost hive. Any non drone ship detected is automatically swarmed. Multiple ships results in the swarm splitting up based on ship size. (Bigger ships are attacked by more or larger drones) A well developed hive can have cruiser or even BS equivalent drones. (That familiar image of the swarm Dominix comes to mind)
So HOW do we mine THAT??
To get that ore from the drones, simply let them think you belong there. Your mining barge has a module called a SwarmKeeper. This is what you used to anchor the Drone Caller described above. It also emits to the drones the IFF of the scout drone they believe located the belt, and they expect to see you. They think you are friendly.
All you need to do is scan that transport drone with your ORE scanner. Once you determine it has the ore you want, chase it down to the cleared area where it prepares to jump home. As it sits on the two minute timer preparing to jump, it transfers all power to it's jump drive. During this period, the drone itself can be accessed like a container, and you can transfer all the ore to your ore hold. (You can cross transfer to a jetcan as well, but do so at your own risk) The drone is focused on it's jump, and ignores all contact from other drones like you.
Notes: This WILL make asteroid belts dangerous to non mining ships, as they cannot mount a SwarmKeeper module. Drones see any weapons fire on friendly drones to represent either hostile presence or defective drones. They immediately seek to eliminate the aggressor in both cases. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
66
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 16:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ok, I'll bite.
How is this not overpowered in that the miners now have body guards in the form of those drones? |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
528
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 16:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:Ok, I'll bite.
How is this not overpowered in that the miners now have body guards in the form of those drones? Two ways:
First: the miners need to follow the transport drone away from the security of the hive before they can access it. They will still be protected, but the delay in the guardian drones being able to reach them is a level of risk.
Do they risk chasing the ore, and exposing themselves to hostiles that might be nearby?
Second: the SwarmKeeper module is not specific to any hive, so ANY mining ship can show up and start grabbing ore from these transport drones. When was the last time someone was able to take ore from a miner, without risk of can flipping or other consequence?
(A miner could have transferred ore to a jetcan, as explained in the OP. Can flipping penalties of course would apply here if appropriate) Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
89
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 16:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sorry, allowing for automated mining would literally make a lateral shift from illegal botting to legal botting. You do not change the overall botting dynamic.
There is no golden bullet, though I will refrain from pointing out the idiocy of the 'philosopher stone mentality of a single solution solving everything' mentality. CCP already does regular purges of botters. And as far as my afk mining is concerned I do it while writing, reading, or painting and accept that once in a while I need to check if the lasers still have a target. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
528
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 16:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
FireT wrote:Sorry, allowing for automated mining would literally make a lateral shift from illegal botting to legal botting. You do not change the overall botting dynamic.
There is no golden bullet, though I will refrain from pointing out the idiocy of the 'philosopher stone mentality of a single solution solving everything' mentality. CCP already does regular purges of botters. And as far as my afk mining is concerned I do it while writing, reading, or painting and accept that once in a while I need to check if the lasers still have a target. Noone is automating anything here.
The ore being collected by the drones won't go to your ore hold without your specific actions taking place first.
If you ignore the activity too long, you could completely miss out on a rare ore type before it jumps out of the system.
You now would need to worry about other miners showing up, and harvesting the ore in your place. Taking advantage of your efforts to set up this hive, they could reap the rewards instead of you.
If anything, this system would expose you to greater risk, and opportunities for competing miners to get to those transport drones.
Bring guns to fight them off. Possible explosions to follow. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
90
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
You are still automating the actual mining process. While I do understand your idea, the essential problem is that you yourself are ignoring that it will eliminate the need for Mining barges / Exhumers since there is a degree of automation there now. And following the path of least resistance players will switch to it. Only botters might do both instead.
Following your line of thought about transportation: maybe Orcas would be the only ones remaining. Also, the fighting off would encourage even more harassment since suddenly people have automated jet canning, sorry for the lack of a better term, available to create aggro.
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
528
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
FireT wrote:You are still automating the actual mining process. While I do understand your idea, the essential problem is that you yourself are ignoring that it will eliminate the need for Mining barges / Exhumers since there is a degree of automation there now. And following the path of least resistance players will switch to it. Only botters might do both instead.
Following your line of thought about transportation: maybe Orcas would be the only ones remaining. Also, the fighting off would encourage even more harassment since suddenly people have automated jet canning, sorry for the lack of a better term, available to create aggro. Details are important.
Like strip mining modules, only barges and exhumers can mount a SwarmKeeper module. I apologize if I left this detail unclear. In the OP example I specified a mining barge.
Orcas and Rorquals cannot safely get within 250Km of a hive without being attacked. The drones would pop a transport like a cheap pinata. Only barges and exhumers with the SwarmKeeper can operate in the hive vicinity. Their enhanced ore holds make them more practical for this since the update.
The automation you refer to, using current system comparisons:
Current system: You lock onto your target, and activate your strip miners. Ore flows into your hold. Done.
Drone keeper system: You watch for the transport drones. Assuming you are looking for specific ore, you use a survey scanner to see what is present. (The Transport will possibly have more than one type, causing it to be listed twice) You follow the transport drone away from the safety of the hive, to the cleared area. The drone stops, and begins its two minute jump prep. You can now take the ore. Anyone can take the ore, without consequence since no player owns it yet. If noone took the drone's cargo of ore during it's jump prep, the drone and it's ore cargo are now gone. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
67
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 18:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Mary Annabelle wrote:Ok, I'll bite.
How is this not overpowered in that the miners now have body guards in the form of those drones? Two ways: First: the miners need to follow the transport drone away from the security of the hive before they can access it. They will still be protected, but the delay in the guardian drones being able to reach them is a level of risk. Do they risk chasing the ore, and exposing themselves to hostiles that might be nearby? Second: the SwarmKeeper module is not specific to any hive, so ANY mining ship can show up and start grabbing ore from these transport drones. When was the last time someone was able to take ore from a miner, without risk of can flipping or other consequence? (A miner could have transferred ore to a jetcan, as explained in the OP. Can flipping penalties of course would apply here if appropriate) Ok, you are suggesting that the drones distance is a limiting factor to their threat.
Noone get's ore from drones if they don't leave safety behind.
What happens if I want to mine normally? |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
528
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 18:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:Ok, you are suggesting that the drones distance is a limiting factor to their threat.
Noone get's ore from drones if they don't leave safety behind.
What happens if I want to mine normally? You either need to be over 250Km from the hive OR you need to mount a SwarmKeeper replacing a strip miner OR you can let them attack you, and hope your tank is good enough.
A procurer / skiff with only one high slot has the best chance of tanking, although a hive could likely develop past this ability in time. The other barges / exhumers would be able to mine in range with their remaining strip miners, trading lost ore collection speed for better safety.
Question is, does it satisfy your risk vs reward interests to slow down your ore collection, just to have the relative safety of a rogue drone hive nearby?
Rogue drones are not concord, determined players can still get at you. They just have a need to be careful about how they do it. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
68
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 18:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Mary Annabelle wrote:Ok, you are suggesting that the drones distance is a limiting factor to their threat.
Noone get's ore from drones if they don't leave safety behind.
What happens if I want to mine normally? You either need to be over 250Km from the hive OR you need to mount a SwarmKeeper replacing a strip miner OR you can let them attack you, and hope your tank is good enough. A procurer / skiff with only one high slot has the best chance of tanking, although a hive could likely develop past this ability in time. The other barges / exhumers would be able to mine in range with their remaining strip miners, trading lost ore collection speed for better safety. Question is, does it satisfy your risk vs reward interests to slow down your ore collection, just to have the relative safety of a rogue drone hive nearby? Rogue drones are not concord, determined players can still get at you. They just have a need to be careful about how they do it. It sounds like this is no replacement for a fleet op then.
At best, this might be a good trade off for less than ten miners. Probably the point where it is worth it for one of them to switch out a hulk for a orca or rorqual for boosting to get more ore / ice overall.
For this small grouping, it might make sense. I can see this being a challenge for a solo miner, trying to catch cargo from leaving without getting popped or stolen by clever competition.
Still, it sounds more interesting than watching my strip miners cycle endlessly. |
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
529
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 19:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:Still, it sounds more interesting than watching my strip miners cycle endlessly. Annd that's one of the big pay offs to this.
It makes mining worth the effort to pay attention to. It definitely makes mining more interactive.
It also makes the mining experience slanted towards mining ships. Sure, other ships can show up and try things, but they will need to deal with hostile rogue drones attacking them.
It creates additional interest in having defensive ships as well. Deter other miners from taking ore.
These are rogue drones, not Concord, defensive ships may be less needed for protection, but they are far from an absolute defense. Being solo is never safe. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
68
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 21:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Oh I just had a nasty idea.
Find some semi AFK miner, and plant a hive near them.
Maybe they notice in time, maybe the rogue drones chew em up.
Ok, I like the idea now that I can see a way to screw with people using it.
Seriously, who plays this game so they can be nice? |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
90
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 00:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote: You either need to be over 250Km from the hive OR you need to mount a SwarmKeeper replacing a strip miner OR you can let them attack you, and hope your tank is good enough.
Right here is where you essentially mined an entire belt AND negated everything the current mining barge buff from CCP did. For those two reasons your idea will never be practical. Not only did you mine the entire belt but you did not put a limitation on how many a player can have, thus allowing nearly infinite seeding 'wars' to occur right after the server starts. Similarly you encouraged a new form of botting that negates the last improvement to the mining ships. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
529
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 01:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
FireT wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote: You either need to be over 250Km from the hive OR you need to mount a SwarmKeeper replacing a strip miner OR you can let them attack you, and hope your tank is good enough.
Right here is where you essentially mined an entire belt AND negated everything the current mining barge buff from CCP did. For those two reasons your idea will never be practical. Not only did you mine the entire belt but you did not put a limitation on how many a player can have, thus allowing nearly infinite seeding 'wars' to occur right after the server starts. Similarly you encouraged a new form of botting that negates the last improvement to the mining ships. You are assuming details, if I take what you wrote as is.
The rate of exchange from asteroid to mined ore is something only CCP can balance. The suggestion that entire belts will be mined is no more likely under this system than the current one. (and this is already occurring with many smaller belts scanned down on a regular basis)
It is an issue of balance whether the drones will persist in presence or activity in the absence of the pilot who placed the initial Drone Caller. It may be decided they will leave if this pilot logs out. Maybe they will simply stop mining, and leave if the pilot is off grid more than 15 minutes.
If it is decided that belt sabotage is a valid game tactic, then the drones won't leave, or an allowance will permit a means to let the drones eliminate ore just so others cannot have it.
It is entirely reasonable that the hive itself can be destroyed or otherwise removed, allowing for the ore in it's construction to be partially reclaimed as loot. An activity that also can be fun and challenging for groups. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
529
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 01:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:Oh I just had a nasty idea.
Find some semi AFK miner, and plant a hive near them.
Maybe they notice in time, maybe the rogue drones chew em up.
Ok, I like the idea now that I can see a way to screw with people using it.
Seriously, who plays this game so they can be nice? It is definitely an aggressive tactic.
I would expect, however, that the initial hive just starting up would be easy to stop or destroy.
I think it would gradually build up and increase in size and power.
Possibly more growth speed could be inspired by multiple Drone Callers used together by fleeted miners. A bonus for using an exhumer over a barge is also possible. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
68
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 13:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:If it is decided that belt sabotage is a valid game tactic, then the drones won't leave, or an allowance will permit a means to let the drones eliminate ore just so others cannot have it.
It is entirely reasonable that the hive itself can be destroyed or otherwise removed, allowing for the ore in it's construction to be partially reclaimed as loot. An activity that also can be fun and challenging for groups. THIS THIS THIS
oh yeah one more thing
THIS
Miners don't need combat ships hunting them, we are MORE than happy to mess with each other! |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
90
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 14:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
So you wish for a way to shoot / harass other players without any aggro or punishment? You essentially ignored the choices / punishment of Eve's core idea. |
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
69
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 15:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
FireT wrote:So you wish for a way to shoot / harass other players without any aggro or punishment? You essentially ignored the choices / punishment of Eve's core idea. Are you joking?
Mining is a passive aggressive hostility occupation already. Every time you scan down the hidden belts after server comes back up, you are racing to take that ore before the next miner.
We don't share. We grab, and whoever grabs faster gets more.
If I see a rare ore, I am locking my strip modules onto it, and I don't care who else wants it. Guess what, they do the same thing too!
If you expected Ms Manners, go play a different game.
We are already harassing each other. We are looking for ways to up the ante on this too. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
530
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 15:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Competition for ore would be served by driving off your fellow miners. (At least, outside of corp fleets where you are working together for the corp)
The less ore on the market, the more each unit is worth. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
70
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 17:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Competition for ore would be served by driving off your fellow miners. (At least, outside of corp fleets where you are working together for the corp)
The less ore on the market, the more each unit is worth. I don't even need to drive them off. Just forcing them to lose a strip miner in order to mount that swarmkeeper instead cuts them.
Making them pay attention or miss out on snagging ore from the drones makes it interactive and competitive. I can see a Bustard warping to a cloaked scout so it can grab that ore, and warp out again. Yeah, the cloaked scout would need to bug out if it got decloaked, but that's nothing compared to outracing a half afk competitor to get the ore so they can't.
Oh, yeah, and I can sell it instead of them too. Mining not being a snoozefest would be huge! |
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
530
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 20:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
This sounds like a win to me.
Considering that CCP has many options to balance this as they like, is it likely they will consider belt sabotage a valid tactic and allow this to occur? Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
530
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 13:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bump... the rogue drones made me do it. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
531
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 13:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
(Planting a drone caller, maybe they might have a few comments....) Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
537
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 23:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:(Planting a drone caller, maybe they might have a few comments....) Message from the drones: Send more ore! \#/ ^^^ That's a drone waving! Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
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