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Lord Booya
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2012.09.04 16:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
I know, "make one yourself" well i cant. so someone please put out some good footage of larger ships fighting outnumbered? This flood of frig crap is terrible. thank you |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
755
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 16:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
I, for one, also share your concern. 14 |
Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant Tribal Band
126
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Posted - 2012.09.04 16:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
All you need to do is get 30+ people to do a frig roam. Hilarity ensues, especially when they're T1 fitted They cost ~1Mil apiece, cheaper if you can get your alliance's industrial guys to get you a large batch I Endorse this Product and/or Service Source Recorder-esque tool for EVE |
Recoil IV
Far From Sober
15
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Posted - 2012.09.04 17:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:I, for one, also share your concern.
theres the problem is isk these days.its little and big ships are very expensive.at leasy i know i cant afford a 250m rokh hull |
Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
194
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
lol What is this I don't even... Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
2735
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 18:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Give me some ships and I will make a vid in anything you want. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Corwain
Tea And Sympathy Ltd. Liability Reckless Ambition
1
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Posted - 2012.09.04 18:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Super old, but it's not a frig. :-P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epanvo0XZZQ
Some Pirate Alt no holds barred balls to the wall I lost a lot of ships making this but still had a 4:1 destroyed value to lost value ratio.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Corwain/Janus-Dangerous_Business.wmv
And some random montages that I didn't bother to theme or really refine.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0704/Corwain-domi.wmv
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Corwain/Distortion2preview.wmv <- Will probly never be finished. Enjoy the music you freaking elves.
I took a yearlong sabbatical so I'm still figuring out the new lay of the land. Solo feels harder nowaday but I'm probly just rusty. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
755
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 18:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Damn, I'm really envy of those with main obstacle for PvP (aside from RL, ofc) being mere isk.
I'm personally driven off by crappy game mechanics and proliferation of boring cheap-ass ammo-wasters like Drakes etc. 14 |
Corwain
Tea And Sympathy Ltd. Liability Reckless Ambition
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 18:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Damn, I'm really envy of those with main obstacle for PvP (aside from RL, ofc) being mere isk.
I'm personally driven off by crappy game mechanics and proliferation of boring cheap-ass ammo-wasters like Drakes etc.
Land a plated blasterboat on top of a solo Drake and watch it melt. It's a bit of a trick to pull off but when a plan comes together it's orgasmic to watch the destruction play itself out. PvP in EVE is such a rush. I miss the quickening. THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE! |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
755
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 19:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
The thing is, both plated blasterboats and lonely victims are utterly boring. There's literally no room to get mental challenge out of there. 14 |
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Corwain
Tea And Sympathy Ltd. Liability Reckless Ambition
1
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Posted - 2012.09.04 19:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:The thing is, both plated blasterboats and lonely victims are utterly boring. There's literally no room to get mental challenge out of there.
Farjung you are not. It's attitudes like that that make everyone stay home playing spin the faction BS in the station. |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
2735
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 19:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:The thing is, both plated blasterboats and lonely victims are utterly boring. There's literally no room to get mental challenge out of there. I don't really have the time to do anything but run around like suicidal cannon fodder hence the frigs and infrequent play time these days.
Mechanics have changed, partly for the worse but it really does get worse the larger the ships you undock in (solo). Hence the proliferation of frig stuff. It has an immediacy, low cost, and you don't have to deal with ECM, logi and blob horseshit nearly as much. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
755
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 20:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Dunno, each one surely has his own idea of fun, but I'd rather not PvP at all than have ersatz-PvP of frigs. There are many other games, for instance I'm loving Civ5 multiplayer after Gods&Kings add-on - all you need is joining right community (like No Quitters group). A typical weekend game of 4-6 players takes about 5 hours - just like a regular EVE roaming, huh , but fun is pretty much guaranteed. 14 |
Lord Booya
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 21:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
So what im getting from the replies is..... EVE is too expensive now for big ships, the only thing you are going to see is frig / destroyer 1 vs 1 bullshit!
This royally sucks |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
755
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 21:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Well, introduction of ASB was the last straw - why bother with faction battleships when every tard can put a 6-mil mod on and tank like a mofo? I've had fights where I was literally working my ass off to score a one single kill - if they had an ASB option back then, I wouldn't have killed a crap. Just re-watch ...Disciples, the second fight. 14 |
Zach Donnell
The Tuskers
73
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 21:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
I love this entitlement that you have, that people should make you the videos you wan't to see. For no reason other than because you want to see them.
Go make them yourself if you see such a void. |
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
180
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 23:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zach, I think the discussion was pretty clearly showing the state of videos reflects the state of the meta, rather than just what people want to see. BSs and non tier3 BCs are struggling to find any place in the game outside blobs, especially armour ones. People say they would make vids if it was worth the gametime required to find a decent fight and have fun doing so. Makers aren't having fun and hording the fraps for themselves, there's just a lack of fraps from a lack of fights. |
Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
194
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 17:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Also perhaps there is a lot of frig stuff because there is a surge of new video makers, and frigates are an attractive option for newer pvpers.
This doesn't all come down to one module. And it's way too early to say that this is some permanent thing.
But I agree ASB's have created a stale pvp environment to a certain extent. Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |
Zach Donnell
The Tuskers
74
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 21:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Laktos wrote:But I agree ASB's have created a stale pvp environment to a certain extent.
It was "stale" long before ASBs. If anything Kovorix demonstrated how beneficial they can be for solo. They hurt the ~honour~ 1v1 fights because they make the entire engagement tedious and long, but overall I don't see how it it has hurt the larger solo environment as definitively as people are suggesting.
The 'issue' (if you want to call it that) is that on average the eve player base is more competent now. Or, at the least, is less behind on the meta curve. Which I am not sure is an issue, because despite what anyone says, in my opnion, eve mechanics are not, and never really were intended for solo pilots to succeed. It is an mmo after all. It is typically the stupidity of the player base that has fostered solo pvp, nothing else.
If you can't, or are unwilling to keep up, think, and adapt to the changes then fine, but call it what it is - Don't blame it on a ******* shield booster. If anything eve needs more frequent additions / changes such as the ASB for soloers (theory crafters in general). Forcing, or allowing depending on your perspective, the forward thinkers to stay one step ahead. Only when the the 'average' player is at the same point along the meta curve as the best of the best will players have a legitmate concern to the viability of solo. If there are any soloers left to care at that point.
I am done now |
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
183
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 21:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tier3s were a problem far before ASBs. Canes and Drakes were OP before them. Tengus, Angels, ECM, we know the list of broken stuff in this game.
While I agree in theory that new things would be great for the game to keep it lively and people thinking up the new counter, CCP must avoid power creep. For a new module/ship to be used once introduced, it must be superior in some way, beyond some utterly niche situation. Witness the new armour resist module, no one uses it because it's not good enough, even though it's a change/addition to the options and could have made people far more challenged by armour tankers. Meanwhile the ASB is used everywhere far beyond any intended 'sandbox' scope because it is overpowered. EHP creep has been an issue for long enough. And the advantage of the speed of things like tier3 BCs plus the penalties of armour mods & rigs as well.
In order to create a space for new different things, nerfs are needed too else everything will simply remain just as good because nothing really changed, or creep faster/tougher/worse for those wanting to actually explode spaceships. I am of course assuming that balance needs to strongly consider the mythical same-hull-size 1v1 as a starting point. Thus most likely needed is EHP and speed/tackle nerfs to those that have too much that they distort the balance of fitting & flying tradeoffs. A speed tank is meant to cost you EHP as well as DPS. Otherwise it's just a shield tank that doesn't care that it's a bit easier to hit as it just runs away to not die so who cares that you hit it for a few % more which it just regens for free. Giving up your lowslot DPS modules for a viable (ORLY) active armour tank is meant to be sane because having hard tackle would be a threat to (slightly) fast(er) ships. Not something to only be unlucky or be very stupid to be threatened by but then effectively ignored.
Perhaps non-injected ships can mwd too much? Once at safe range they can maintain it via pulsing for too long compared to slower ships such that they have no risk of losing the GTFO option? For shields, fitting an injector would be a choice of EHP vs speed tank. For armour it would be chasing endurance vs harder tackle. Injected active tankers wouldn't be hit so hard by an increase in mwd penalties. (Dual) ASBs would have a more pronounced tradeoff, nos and cap batteries would have more of a use. |
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Zach Donnell
The Tuskers
74
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 22:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Good post. However you cover an interesting mix of statements that I agree and disagree with. Makes it hard for me to come up with a reasonable response, without looking like I am attempting to pick your statements apart on a needlessly small scale.
I think maybe you misinterpreted my general message (or I did not make it clear enough?) . I wasn't as much suggesting that the state of the game is perfect, as I was insisting that people are bitching and flinging excuses because they can and it's laughable to me. I lump the group of people who don't solo and say BECAUSE ASB into the same category as those who have been claiming "Solo is dead!" for the past... forever.
But despite that, I have been pondering your final suggestions and comments for a while, and I have to say all I see needing to happen is the following:
- Nerf drake CPU some
- Give us 90% webs back
That would do a lot of fun stuff to almost everything you complained about there. If you are really really concerned about dual ASBs, you could (with my above suggestions) nerf tracking and explosion radius/velocity (across the board) for obvious reasons.
Or alternatively I think I suggested at some point that they increase the cycle time of ASBs by a factor of 2 or 3, as well as increase the boost amount by the same factor. This does a couple of things. First makes you incredibly vulnerable to alpha, and also will likely lead you to 'overboost' on boost bonused ships. But still retains the heavy tank that I think is so inspring for solo. |
Cheiftan
Shinryaku Jakkaru Reikon
15
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 22:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Personaly speaking, i am very new to the video making scene and even with my lack of exsperience in this field i already face a barrage of problems when trying to get footage.
Looking beyond the ASB, Tier 3 BC's, Links etc..
Im finding that ECM drones are making it really ***** to find good fights, EvE has become a kiters game.
I once had a fight with 3 drakes in a ferox, i would catch one scram it and rip into it, i would then get jammed by ECM drones, thus being forced to watch that drake gain distance, too many mechanics create a risk averse enviroment.
These days its just easy for me to roam solo in a wolf, purly because its mobile enough to pick and choose my engagments, rather then be blobed to high heaven by mr drake fleet and their 30 ec-300s.
Rant over...
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
755
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 23:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
How can anyone sane claim overtank to be inspiring for solo when you have to fight against it yourself, too? The thing is, small-scale PvP by definition means fighting against superior numbers and the only thing allowing to do that is gaining a temporal advantage here or there, which mostly comes from the maneuver. This temporal advantage may or may not be enough to get things done (that is: score kills), but in general it should be quite obvious that heavier tank means lesser opportunities to gain kills. Put it to the extreme and imagine ships in EVE having 10x EHP of today and also burst-tanking ten times as much - it would be just plain tedious, scoring just two kills in succession becomes pretty much a heroic deed.
I'm far from saying solo is dead and so on, but fitting an OP crap and fighting against the same crap to kill may be one or two ships at most when previously under the same conditions you could kill 5 is simply not what I would call progress or fun.
I do agree with EVE needing more frequent radical balance shifts, though. But still, these shifts should not consist of CCP introducing something so absurdly OP as ASB of today. An opposite example is The Great Nano Fix - instead of creating a single FOTM they created a diversion of ships, setups and tactics while previosly it was just nano or nothing. I was flying my Domi-web Abso and occasionally killing those nano abominations while succumbing pretty much to none, but that wasn't all that fun. It's more or less the same today. 14 |
F4bske
Matari Exodus
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 00:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
I love to fly something different and bigger. The only Problem is, that I'm not tempted anymore to take engagements that require alot of good maneuvers. I don't want to risk expensive ships (like a Nanopest or Hyperion) anymore. There is better stuff to do then carebearing 6 days and pvp 1 day. Maybe I'm just a terrible pilot or coward. It's amazing what amounts of isk Fon Revedhort risks, i barely get over 5b in ships. Back on Topic: I think what is fitting best your desires are the Vids of Kovorix, if you want to see more, convo him and send him isk/ships. he burns alot each month. |
Noisrevbus
220
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 01:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
There are so many things to discuss on this topic, but there is something in particular i want to lift out:
As you lapse back to bottom-line ships it just put so much more focus on what you can do with them. A mediocre movie in a risky setting will always be more appealing than a mediocre movie in a mediocre setting. Few of the movies that come out today, a good year later, have the piloting quality of "Podcat's Dishonour" for example.
That tie back to the whole "many things" part again. It's difficult being unique but there's always room for something unexpected or some sort of rarity (it doesn't have the be the ship or it's pricetag). When the solo-revival and initial the tech I frig movies of this era came out, they were just that. Today it's staple, and it is such within a very undaunting setting.
I guess you can see it as two sides of a coin. On one side i'd like to think that the solo-revival movement have been extremely positive for the game, and while it was more sorely needed when it first came out, i think it's positive that it continues to influence newer players today, letting you know that "it's as easy as this".
At the same time, other things are more exotic today and within standards you need to shine extra gleaming to stand out.
There's so much to say, i'll just silence myself not to run off-topic. |
Euphonus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 02:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ships and modules are way too ******* expensive now, that is all. Fix that (just roll us back pre-*******-incursions) and PvP will become possible again [no, PvP is NOT feasible when a god damn battleship costs 400+mill to buy and t2 fit- even if you are buying isk by selling plex it isn't feasible].
Sure modules need to be fixed as well, and balance issues addressed, but that is secondary to the ridiculous cost of PvP as it currently stands. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
755
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 02:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:There's so much to say By all means, do it.
Forums lack intelligent discussions. Also, discussing problems associated with movie-making can hardly be treated as off-topic in such a thread and section. Where else could we talk, then? 14 |
Inggroth
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
18
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 04:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
Zach Donnell wrote: For the record, I think the only legitimate complaint here is the cost of a fit ship. Make hulls cheaper and module price more dynamic (with t2 being much more expensive).
While your suggestion is legit, i would argue that cost is not an issue - the main issue is the time investment.
Since the introduction of tier3s and ASBs there are even more obstacles to get around before gaining a chance of an interesting engagement in a bigger ship. Not only do you need to deal with ECM drones - you also have to deal with potential for ridiculous tank on every shieldtanking ship AND with massive amounts of DPS from outside of point range. These things put close-range brawling (and with it 95% of armor setups) right into the dumpster, which is a pity.
Also on the subject of "frig crap" - there are 2 things to say about this: 1. there are obviously different opinions of what is interesting to watch, which depend heavily on what the viewer PvP experience is. I personally dont consider for example battleships brawling scrub camps down in lowsec or linked 100mn AB missile spamming Tengus worth my time. 2. In an environment progressively more hostile to soloers frigates are the most casual way to still solo and get engagements. You pay for that with limited target and tactic selection, but nothing is free in eve. |
Zach Donnell
The Tuskers
74
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 05:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Inggroth I am too tired at the moment to articulate an intelligent response to you.
But briefly touching back on the larger discussion, I, as some may recall, have a pretty serious love for frigs. I discovered over years pvping though that it is for a primary reason. In a game where losses actually mean something, it's stressful for me to fly an expensive ship, granted expensive is relative, but still. For someone like me, coming home from a stressful day at work/class the last thing I want to do is stress myself out further flying something expensive. Thus frigates (or maybe BC or two on a good day) let me relax while pvping. This is often the largest factor in the ship I choose to pvp in for the day.
I am not sure if anyone else experiences this, but I would certainly be surprised if I am the only one.
I do really have high hopes for this thread, keep the thoughtful discourse up |
Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
194
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 07:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:How can anyone sane claim overtank to be inspiring for solo when you have to fight against it yourself, too? The thing is, small-scale PvP by definition means fighting against superior numbers and the only thing allowing to do that is gaining a temporal advantage here or there, which mostly comes from the maneuver. This temporal advantage may or may not be enough to get things done (that is: score kills), but in general it should be quite obvious that heavier tank means lesser opportunities to gain kills. Put it to the extreme and imagine ships in EVE having 10x EHP of today and also burst-tanking ten times as much - it would be just plain tedious, scoring just two kills in succession becomes pretty much a heroic deed.
I'm far from saying solo is dead and so on, but fitting an OP crap and fighting against the same crap to kill may be one or two ships at most when previously under the same conditions you could kill 5 is simply not what I would call progress or fun.
I do agree with EVE needing more frequent radical balance shifts, though. But still, these shifts should not consist of CCP introducing something so absurdly OP as ASB of today. An opposite example is The Great Nano Fix - instead of creating a single FOTM they created a diversion of ships, setups and tactics while previosly it was just nano or nothing. I was flying my Domi-web Abso and occasionally killing those nano abominations while succumbing pretty much to none, but that wasn't all that fun. It's more or less the same today.
This, this, many times this.
Don't get me wrong Zach. I don't mean to say that EVE was fantastic before and now ASB's have ruined everything. Restricted to 1 asb module per ship I think the module is in many ways an exciting, dynamic module that adds a lot of flavour.
But when almost every single soloer flying around today is fitting asb's on everything, even stuff that is usually armor buffer tanked, simply because its better than everything. Well that to me is an example of a stale environment. Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |
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