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Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.05.10 15:13:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/05/2011 15:14:29 Personally, if you truly feel that something in the ECM/ECCM mechanics are broken, I would grab a Falcon and do some testing of my own. With ECCM, without ECCM, with implants, without implants, etc.
It would significantly increase your knowledge of the mechanics, your position in this thread, and any bug report you may turn in.
It is entirely possible that some bug is affecting one of the involved factors (implants for example), which can be difficult to detect. It is also entirely possible that you just had a run of bad luck.
Run a series of thorough tests, it's the only way to be reasonably sure.
That said, yes, there are effective counters beyond ECCM. As mentioned above having a staged (cloaked) stealth bomber or two with damps is one of my favorites... especially if you have an uber fast tackler that can redirect to ram him between jams and allow the volley of torps to cover the distance before he warps off. This is one reason that I prefer using two rigs that increase missile speed instead of one for speed, one for flight time. But I digress.
===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
dgastuffz
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2011.05.10 15:15:00 -
[92]
Originally by: To be honest if I were to bring my rook to a fight, these kinds of whines would still emerge, a rook does not cloak but easily have double the jamming strength of a falcon.[/quote
? rook falcon gets the same bonus !
jamming strength of both should be around 14.2
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E man Industries
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Posted - 2011.05.10 15:15:00 -
[93]
I agree but for a diffrent reason.
ECM dominates E-war...to the point that it is E-war.
Other forms simple are not as good. They do not work on all ships under all situations. ven under ideal situations they only equal ECM and are easier to counter..of tracking disrupted, lower transversal, fit tracking comps.
ECCM fails in so many ways and offers not other benifits. Other counters to other e-war have other benifits such as (sensor boosters are usfull not just to counter damps, tracking PC usefull even when not disrupted for example)
ECM needs a nerf or other e-war needs a boost. Or something in between. ______ Hello WoW players. Look at your toon, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me, but if it wasn't simplistic pre scripted linear mono dimensional game you could look like me. I'm in a Paladin |
Captain Futur3
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Posted - 2011.05.10 15:17:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 10/05/2011 15:21:44 I always use a Sensor strength booster on my Cane when i do low sec pvp. My strength is something over 30 and still the chance to jamm me is way over 50% for one jammer (at least thats the practical experience i had in combat in several fights). Also its a wrong mechanic that you have to force all of your ships to put counter ECMs on them to counter one single ship in the game. Compare it to weapon damage types: if you know there is one ship that does thermal damage in eve and all others do not, not all of your ships in your fleet have to waste slots for thermal resis to be prepared. With a falcon, you have, because one falcon can jamm 4 ships at the same time without getting in combat range for 90% of the ships that are involved. Its also all the time in warping range, so not in danger. Also compare the falcon to the other pendants like tracking jammer ships. Its a big joke. No one flies them but everyone flies a falcon.
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Drykor
Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.05.10 15:35:00 -
[95]
Falcons don't jam NEARLY as often as many people in this thread make it out to be. The only reason people dislike them so much is because it's extremely frustrating to even be jammed once.
But I definitely call BS on the OP's story, to even jam all of those ships just once in a fight would need extreme luck or a fight lasting like 30 minutes. 120 sensor strength is WAY too much for a Falcon. Though it's technically possible to be so unlucky, it's by no means a situation to judge Falcon balance by. But permajammed? No way.
--- Drykor - AHARM |
JC Anderson
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.05.10 15:57:00 -
[96]
Edited by: JC Anderson on 10/05/2011 16:00:55 True... As I said, even with Max skills I end up with far more failed jams than the OP would be led to believe. At which point I'm likely going to try and pull off a cross jam with another Racial. And my chances then are even lower.
As for the post a couple above mine about the cane... Minmatar ships are sadly much easier to jam than the other races. It's one reason why I don't even bother fitting a Min racial jammer on my Falcons and Rooks and instead just loadout 2 caldari. (Due to the abundance of Drakes.) For Min I often just use another ecm type and go for a cross jam off the bat.
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2011.05.10 16:03:00 -
[97]
With sensor strength 120 (and one assumes it would be higher as why wouldn't you overload?) absolute maxed falcon with race specific legion jammers overloaded (for the whole minute that is possible)and maxed proteus gang boost would on average have a SINGLE guardian jammed for 71% of time. That shows just how unlikey the ops story is of this falcon (which if so fit would only have 6k ehp unless fitting slaves) permajamming 5 such ships simultaneously.
I can honestly say I have never been jammed by a falcon in my own logi which usually has lower sensor strength than that. Waves of ecm drones on the other hand seem to get jams in regardless.
Most likely the op was cycle jammed by a very skilled (and lucky) falcon pilot who also had some damping back up and the op is counting lock time as jam time.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.05.10 16:05:00 -
[98]
This may still be relevant here.
[Statistics] ECM and ECCM: Facts instead of feelings.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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Rustynail79
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Posted - 2011.05.10 16:34:00 -
[99]
Originally by: E man Industries I agree but for a diffrent reason.
ECM dominates E-war...to the point that it is E-war.
Other forms simple are not as good. They do not work on all ships under all situations. ven under ideal situations they only equal ECM and are easier to counter..of tracking disrupted, lower transversal, fit tracking comps.
ECCM fails in so many ways and offers not other benifits. Other counters to other e-war have other benifits such as (sensor boosters are usfull not just to counter damps, tracking PC usefull even when not disrupted for example)
ECM needs a nerf or other e-war needs a boost. Or something in between.
I completely disagree with this as it goes against the whole mechanic of balacne for the factions. If you nerf ECM you would have to do some seriouse work on the caldari as they would be even more underpowered than they are now. Basically the way it is at the moement for raw firepower the amarr and minmatar have the most firepower but have the weakest ewar. Were as the Caldari and Gallanttee have the best ewar but are lacking in the firepower department (not counting nyx).
If you go nerfing ECM what is the point of the caldari. Shield tanking is rubbish, delayed damage of missle is no good in pvp, rails are a joke. Except for the drake which is probably going to get the nerf to with all the moaning what exactly do the caldari have to offer besides ECM.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2011.05.10 17:28:00 -
[100]
Sounds like a "I royally ****ed up on the logistics and want to blame something else" thread to me!
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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GateScout
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Posted - 2011.05.10 17:45:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Nemu Endoras 1 falcon had 2 guardians permajammed with double ECCM and grail implants, along with permajamming a BS and T3
A single falcon "permajammed" 4 ships? 2 ECCM backed guardians, a BS and a T3?
I think you need to define "permajammed" because while this is theoretically possible, the chances of it happening (assuming ECM mechanics are still working properly) are incredible low.
If permajammed means a few minutes of being jammed (rather than a cycle), I'd buy a lottery ticket if I were you...
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2011.05.10 17:47:00 -
[102]
OP's a virtual cut and paste from a thread made months ago.
Also, I only successfully invented three of eight jobs as opposed to the usual four of eight. Is this the place where I should be posting? -- Need a break from EVE? |
Spurty
Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.05.10 17:56:00 -
[103]
So the accepted counter to one ship mods and role is a blob of randomly theoretically fit ships you would never use except for this one encounter.?
Eh?
*roles eyes *
Fizzt!
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Generals4
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Posted - 2011.05.10 18:05:00 -
[104]
Am i the only one who thought about this upon reading the title?
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Waaaaaagggh
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Posted - 2011.05.10 18:12:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 10/05/2011 18:14:32 I posted on page 2 asking you to calculate the chances before you whine.
Did you calculate yet? Take a standard falcon fit to eft, all lvl 5's, and see what probibility you come up with.
Don't start whining and asking to nerf ecm just because your roam ended up getting killed off. I've gotten murdered by plenty of falcon alts. Doesn't make them broken
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Captain Futur3
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Posted - 2011.05.10 18:54:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 10/05/2011 18:53:54
Originally by: Waaaaaagggh Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 10/05/2011 18:14:32 I posted on page 2 asking you to calculate the chances before you whine.
Did you calculate yet? Take a standard falcon fit to eft, all lvl 5's, and see what probibility you come up with.
Don't start whining and asking to nerf ecm just because your roam ended up getting killed off. I've gotten murdered by plenty of falcon alts. Doesn't make them broken
What uses you the best math, if in game falcons rule in comparison to other comparable ships? Nothing. I am not the OP, but i know and remember what i have encountered in low sec and i KNOW that EVERY single fight with ONE falcon on the other side was like self destructing our ships. No matter if we had more ships (small groups of <6) or if we had the better ships. So your arguement is good on the paper, but not in game.
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Ludacrys
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Posted - 2011.05.10 20:03:00 -
[107]
>Engage random solitary ship >ship scrams you >falcon uncloaks 80km away and jams you
how is that not overpowered? its basically a win all fights alt
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2011.05.10 20:33:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Captain Futur3 Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 10/05/2011 18:53:54
Originally by: Waaaaaagggh Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 10/05/2011 18:14:32 I posted on page 2 asking you to calculate the chances before you whine.
Did you calculate yet? Take a standard falcon fit to eft, all lvl 5's, and see what probibility you come up with.
Don't start whining and asking to nerf ecm just because your roam ended up getting killed off. I've gotten murdered by plenty of falcon alts. Doesn't make them broken
What uses you the best math, if in game falcons rule in comparison to other comparable ships? Nothing. I am not the OP, but i know and remember what i have encountered in low sec and i KNOW that EVERY single fight with ONE falcon on the other side was like self destructing our ships. No matter if we had more ships (small groups of <6) or if we had the better ships. So your arguement is good on the paper, but not in game.
Proof or STFU and even if you post links to battles where you lost a gang to another with 1 falcon I bet there are plenty more you lost when they didn't have one!
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.05.10 22:17:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Ludacrys >Engage random solitary ship >ship scrams you >falcon uncloaks 80km away and jams you
how is that not overpowered? its basically a win all fights alt
Engage random solitary ship >ship scrams you >Maelstrom uncloaks 80km away and gives you an 8k RF Fusion enema
how is that not overpowered? its basically a win all fights alt
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.05.10 22:52:00 -
[110]
In case anyone didn't get the point, 2 ships are usually > 1 ship.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.05.10 22:55:00 -
[111]
Incidentally, you can do the same demonstration with pretty much any ship that can project at 80Km, including the other recons (A Rook is actually better than a Falcon because it can do ~300 DPS as well), almost any battleship, most HACs, heck, even a Drake.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Fix Lag
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Posted - 2011.05.10 23:55:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Malcanis In case anyone didn't get the point, 2 ships are usually > 1 ship.
Counterpoint: Echelon.
Fix Lag! |
Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:32:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Nemu Endoras
Originally by: Discrodia
Originally by: Nemu Endoras I know that whining on the forums is a recipe for flames, but as of right now i dont care. Me and my corp (yes, an alt. Get over it) lost another fight, that should have been in our favour, because of a single falcon. As far as I'm aware, no single ship should be able to decide the fate of an entire fight.
2 things.
1. BECAUSE OF FALCON.
2. The point of EWAR is to unbalance fair fights. Get over yourself.
Fair enough. But there's a difference between unbalancing a fair fight, and instant win. Please tell me what we could have done to counter the falcon more than we did. I would love to hear. Especially as it held 4 people at once.
Sure, 1 thing? Bring your own Caldari pilot.
1. Fly toward falcon. 2. Load FOF's. 3. Watch falcon run or pop.
The one thing you are forgetting to mention about a Falcon, it's actual tank is non-existent. I've personally sat there permajammed by Falcons and Blackbirds and shot them to pieces with FOF's. Rooks are a bit tougher to deal with but they can be handled in the same way.
If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
Captain Futur3
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Posted - 2011.05.11 01:07:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson
Originally by: Captain Futur3 Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 10/05/2011 18:53:54
Originally by: Waaaaaagggh Edited by: Waaaaaagggh on 10/05/2011 18:14:32 I posted on page 2 asking you to calculate the chances before you whine.
Did you calculate yet? Take a standard falcon fit to eft, all lvl 5's, and see what probibility you come up with.
Don't start whining and asking to nerf ecm just because your roam ended up getting killed off. I've gotten murdered by plenty of falcon alts. Doesn't make them broken
What uses you the best math, if in game falcons rule in comparison to other comparable ships? Nothing. I am not the OP, but i know and remember what i have encountered in low sec and i KNOW that EVERY single fight with ONE falcon on the other side was like self destructing our ships. No matter if we had more ships (small groups of <6) or if we had the better ships. So your arguement is good on the paper, but not in game.
Proof or STFU and even if you post links to battles where you lost a gang to another with 1 falcon I bet there are plenty more you lost when they didn't have one!
No, YOU stfu or proof me the reverse! Also i dont care what you think. There are always a lot of people who dont want their stuff to be nerved, even if they know that its overpowered. I bet you also think the drake is absolutely balanced while facts in game and stats prove its not. I am minmatar, but i also skilled the drake and yeah.. i still think its too powerful in comparison to other ships.
Btw, just because you CAN counter a ship does not make it balanced. Balanced means that with a comparable amount of ISK and players/skill, you have nearly equal results on both sides. This is practical not possible, but there are some extrema in nearly every game. Falcon is one in eve. Face it.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.05.11 02:22:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Captain Futur3 Btw, just because you CAN counter a ship does not make it balanced. Balanced means that with a comparable amount of ISK and players/skill, you have nearly equal results on both sides. This is practical not possible, but there are some extrema in nearly every game. Falcon is one in eve. Face it.
EVE is a rock/paper/scissors game, not a "balanced ships" game. If all ships were balanced against each other, why would you fly T2 ships instead of T1 variants?
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Captain Futur3
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Posted - 2011.05.11 12:06:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 11/05/2011 12:07:30
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Captain Futur3 Btw, just because you CAN counter a ship does not make it balanced. Balanced means that with a comparable amount of ISK and players/skill, you have nearly equal results on both sides. This is practical not possible, but there are some extrema in nearly every game. Falcon is one in eve. Face it.
EVE is a rock/paper/scissors game, not a "balanced ships" game. If all ships were balanced against each other, why would you fly T2 ships instead of T1 variants?
And what is the point of your arguement? Did i (or anyone else in this thread) said anything about ships beeing balanced against all other ships, or that we want this? No and this is good, but still there must be a balancing between all ships and a game design where one single ship class can ruin nearly all small gang pvp is definately not balanced.
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Outouchmatralala
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Posted - 2011.05.11 12:27:00 -
[117]
ecm is overpowered <~~~ yes knew that already
eccm doesn't do much <~~~ yea we knew that too
Conclusion??? oh you're just whining, k thx
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2011.05.11 12:35:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Herrring Edited by: Herrring on 09/05/2011 23:39:47 damn that falcon pilot should go out and buy a lottery ticket right now.
This .
Originally by: Doddy Waves of ecm drones on the other hand seem to get jams in regardless
And this .
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DasDizzy
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2011.05.11 12:39:00 -
[119]
It's because of Falcon
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DarkAegix
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Posted - 2011.05.11 12:56:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Ludacrys >Engage random solitary ship >ship scrams you >falcon uncloaks 80km away and jams you
how is that not overpowered? its basically a win all fights alt
Engage random solitary ship >ship scrams you >Maelstrom uncloaks 80km away and gives you an 8k RF Fusion enema
how is that not overpowered? its basically a win all fights alt
>Ship scrams you >Maelstrom uncloaks 80km away and can't target because of sensor calibration time >Timer is up, and enemy kills the tackler. Maelstrom manages to deal <8k damage. Not enough to alpha even a cruiser. >Enemy is still alive. Enemy can fight back & get under guns. Enemy can flee. Maelstrom doesn't have anything to do. Waits for arty cycle.
Meanwhile, a Falcon can effectively disable 3+ ships with no decloak penalty.
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