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Shadowed Figure
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Posted - 2011.05.16 00:31:00 -
[1]
Hi there. I run a hisec industrial corp and we're about to place our first POS. I'm trying to figure out where to set up camp.
Here's what I've been considering when looking at systems:
Proximity to trade hubs (closer is better)
For non-Caldari space: Proximity to Jita <-> (local trade hub) pipe (closer is better)
Security level's complicated: Higher is better, less competition for moons Higher is better, weaker belt rats for easier afk mining Lower is better, better asteroid belts
Number of asteroid belts (more is better)
Proximity to multiple region boundaries (more is better, easier to check up on markets in multiple regions)
Number of NPC stations (1+ is infinitely better than 0; I'm not sure how many matters once you have at least one)
And, of course, availability of an existing open moon is nice.
Anything I'm missing? Sorry for posting on an alt, but I don't want the forums to have a giant glowing beacon pointing out where our corp's POS is (or rather, will be) to people looking us up.
*********
Also: we're trying to decide between Caldari and Dread Guristas (large). We have the funds for the faction tower if we decide it's a better choice, but I'm having trouble picking. The benefits of a faction tower (that I'm aware of) are:
More shields and armor
Lower fuel requirements
Faster anchoring/unachoring
Faction tower BPCs might have stopped dropping, so the tower itself might appreciate as an investment
A Caldari large is in the realm of 260-280M/month for fuel; a Dread Guristas large is 210-215M/month. At 2.8B on contracts, so a 2.6B premium over a Caldari large, it'll pay for itself in... about four years before appreciation. We have way better uses for capital.
If a random hisec pirate corp notices a large Dread Guristas (with no obvious blingy faction modules, labs, etc. anchored) do they think "that's tougher than a Caldari and it'd be a bigger hassle to take out, let's move on" or "hey, those guys must be rich, their hangars might have good stuff in them" ? Basically, which should we go with?
*****
Thanks in advance, picking a system + potentially picking a really expensive faction tower are big, long-term decisions, and I'd like to get them right. |
Hockston Axe
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.16 02:48:00 -
[2]
The ideal station will include manufacturing slots, 50% refine, repair and maybe medical although medical in another station in system will do. A corp you can get standings with for fee reduction is nice too.
To me a good low profile system would be one with room to spare in offices/moons/manu slot use. A handful of jumps away from the hubs/pipes can get you a lot of quiet while still being not too long of a haul. Also consider the neighborhood. You can mine in the next system over or run missions a couple jumps away.
If you can afford it (by considering it a loss the moment itĘs launched and not minding ū as with anything in space) the faster setup and lower fuel hauling/longer duration fuel bay are priceless with the rest being bonus. From the short dev answer in the answer thread I think the faction tower bpcs will drop again and that they were throttled back to avoid having nearly every tower end up a faction tower.
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Adrian Idaho
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Posted - 2011.05.16 05:44:00 -
[3]
You seem to be focused on mining. There are only very few reasons why you'd want to set up a POS in highsec:
- ME research
- copying/invention
- reverse engineering/T3 hull production
(did I miss any?)
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
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Posted - 2011.05.16 06:31:00 -
[4]
Stations: * Rent. * Services: repair, clones, mission agents, manufacturing.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.05.16 06:41:00 -
[5]
"If a random hisec pirate corp notices a large Dread Guristas"
If you're in hi-sec, they have to wardec you, which means you've got 24 hours to offline, un-anchor and dock it back up again. So there's absolutely no need to spend 1 bill on a tower and there's absolutely no need to buy any guns or defences. The chances of this happening are slim, depending on where the tower is (1 jump from Jita is probably not a good idea) and whether your corp is regularly wardecced.
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Liriel Grey
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Posted - 2011.05.16 09:34:00 -
[6]
In highsec a POS is mostly good for BPO related stuff. Mostly ME and PE researching, copying and inventing, with T2/T3 manufacture as an option.
The first big thing to consider when planting a POS is 'what am I going to do there?'
If the POS is only a roid store you should avoid station systems altogether otherwise you will want a station you can rent an office in, preferably cheap. Medical should preferably be somewhere (3-4 jumps) nearby but is not important. If you are going to be doing a lot of mining, having an efficient refinery there (and someone who can use it in corp) is a big plus.
If you are only going to be doing ME, PE, copy and invention work there then the station should have a factory. The downside to a station factory is that the station is desirable (read: more expensive to rent) and the factory slots can fill up with other people's (and corps') jobs. Station factory (and lab) slots are also slower than POS array slots. The two things you will want (need) to do at a station factory are T2 shipbuilding and building POS elements.
Trying to do as much as possible at your tower is IMO a good idea, with a full array of labs and assembly arrays mounted and running. There are of course security drawbacks to this (people stealing job output etc), it is not cheap to set up and if you are doing T2 shipbuilding the arrays have a materials penalty. You will want to keep a balance between the number of standard and advanced labs and the various types of manufacturing arrays. Having a component array there, for instance, is a virtual requirement to any T2 construction but a drone array is only good for building drones.
Location of course is everything, though if you want good mining and proximity to markets you will probably be disappointed. In that case setting your big tower up near a market/pipe and a secondary small tower (with a corp hangar and a large ship assembly array as ore store) in a better (and stationless) mining system is probably a better idea. Last time I looked, plenty of systems in amarr space qualified.
Faction towers IMO aren't worth their keep in highsec.
Hope this helps.
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Joahna Gramer
Gallente Advanced Laser Technologies Confederate Economic Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.05.16 09:48:00 -
[7]
You want to have at least one station in the system where you're placing your POS and an office there. This way you can do research on BPO's out of the corp hangar on the station without the need to store some really valuable BPO's in you POS for research. Further it's pretty good to have a quiet system with manufacturing slots in the system or nearby. If you have high enough standing then take a look on the 0.6 and 0.7 systems as most people will go for the 0.5 systems due to no patience/need of grinding more standing and therefore most 0.5 systems near the tradehubs have rarely a spare moon. A good place are pocket constellations near a tradehub and it doesn't have to be Jita, try to consider other places, do a good market research upfront and make some calculations, many places offer a better profitmargin. This is ofcourse if you want to do R&D and production, in my opinion there is no need for a mining POS in HiSec space. A good overview of the systems is given by the 2D EveMaps.
Hope i could help a bit.
Best Regards, Joahna Gramer
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2011.05.16 10:53:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Greg Huff on 16/05/2011 10:54:42
Add me to the group that says no to the faction tower. It's not worth it.
Picking a station you also want to consider rent. Having multiple vacant offices will keep the rent low. Our corp relocated over 1.5 years ago and rent has never been over 10k.- Decent amount of belts
- 1 jump from ice
- 1 jump from medical
- 2 jumps from school (skill books)
- Far enough from regional hubs to sell at higher prices
- Freighter to Jita in less than 10 minutes
The only negative is that our station has 35% refining. We compensate this by dropping ore in another station (Level 4 mission hub) and moving the minerals back home. It's a very minor inconvenience for having the rent at rock-bottom.
Summary: Consider what's in the neighborhood, not just your station.
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Adrian Idaho
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Posted - 2011.05.16 10:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Liriel Grey If you are going to be doing a lot of mining, having an efficient refinery there (and someone who can use it in corp) is a big plus.
Refining ore in a POS in highsec is plain stupid. Get a freighter and ship your stuff to a nearby system with stations.
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2011.05.16 11:07:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Adrian Idaho
Originally by: Liriel Grey If you are going to be doing a lot of mining, having an efficient refinery there (and someone who can use it in corp) is a big plus.
Refining ore in a POS in highsec is plain stupid. Get a freighter and ship your stuff to a nearby system with stations.
I disagree. Using a Refining Array at your high-sec pos is brilliant. Not to mention you would be the envy of all carebears.
Translation: You can't place a refining array in high-sec
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Zifrian
Deep Space Innovations
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Posted - 2011.05.16 13:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Adrian Idaho You seem to be focused on mining. There are only very few reasons why you'd want to set up a POS in highsec:
- ME research
- copying/invention
- reverse engineering/T3 hull production
(did I miss any?)
This
Only other consideration is how much a corp hanger is to rent so you can do industry research and copying from station.
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Adrian Idaho
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Posted - 2011.05.16 14:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Greg Huff
Originally by: Adrian Idaho
Originally by: Liriel Grey If you are going to be doing a lot of mining, having an efficient refinery there (and someone who can use it in corp) is a big plus.
Refining ore in a POS in highsec is plain stupid. Get a freighter and ship your stuff to a nearby system with stations.
I disagree. Using a Refining Array at your high-sec pos is brilliant. Not to mention you would be the envy of all carebears.
Translation: You can't place a refining array in high-sec
Hehe, you're right. Let me rephrase that: refining ore at a POS is stupid anywhere but WH space ū even 0.0 is littered with stations (alternatively, use that Rorqual at your POS to compress the ore).
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TravisWB
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Posted - 2011.05.16 18:01:00 -
[13]
Edited by: TravisWB on 16/05/2011 18:03:10 Hisec pos for indy corp? We have one of those, OFFLINE.
They are useless my friend. All you can really do is ME PE and copy. NPC invention and actually PE slots are almost always available.
It does not take long to have a large collection of over-researched BPOs that enable you to make stuff on the speculation that somebody might buy it.
I suggest you just purchase a LOT of ready to go BPCs if you want to waste time making stuff to sell at a loss.
BUT, if you must do it, all you need is a small tower, 3 labs and that is it. Don't buy anything else for it and just use a basic tower that uses the local ice.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
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Posted - 2011.05.16 19:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: TravisWB I suggest you just purchase a LOT of ready to go BPCs if you want to waste time making stuff to sell at a loss.
I currently have 20 billion invested in materials in manufacturing, and about 15 billion in BPO, so yes, don't go into industry as there is no ISK in it
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TravisWB
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Posted - 2011.05.16 21:02:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: TravisWB I suggest you just purchase a LOT of ready to go BPCs if you want to waste time making stuff to sell at a loss.
I currently have 20 billion invested in materials in manufacturing, and about 15 billion in BPO, so yes, don't go into industry as there is no ISK in it
You prove the point. For that level of isk activity you almost certainly have the unfair advantage of owning unobtainable T2 BPOs.
Cause you sure as ell sure aint a tech 1 multibillionaire.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
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Posted - 2011.05.16 22:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: TravisWB
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: TravisWB I suggest you just purchase a LOT of ready to go BPCs if you want to waste time making stuff to sell at a loss.
I currently have 20 billion invested in materials in manufacturing, and about 15 billion in BPO, so yes, don't go into industry as there is no ISK in it
You prove the point. For that level of isk activity you almost certainly have the unfair advantage of owning unobtainable T2 BPOs.
Cause you sure as ell sure aint a tech 1 multibillionaire.
And you would be wrong. I don't own any T2 BPO. Never want to. Roughly 10% of my manufacturing is currently T1.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.05.16 22:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: TravisWB Edited by: TravisWB on 16/05/2011 18:03:10 Hisec pos for indy corp? We have one of those, OFFLINE.
They are useless my friend. All you can really do is ME PE and copy. NPC invention and actually PE slots are almost always available.
It does not take long to have a large collection of over-researched BPOs that enable you to make stuff on the speculation that somebody might buy it.
I suggest you just purchase a LOT of ready to go BPCs if you want to waste time making stuff to sell at a loss.
BUT, if you must do it, all you need is a small tower, 3 labs and that is it. Don't buy anything else for it and just use a basic tower that uses the local ice.
Err, ok, so if you're going to invent, you'll want one for copying BPC's. Oh and then there's the time bonus you get from the research labs too, which makes them turn their jobs over a lot faster than NPC stations.
My setup for invention was 1 small POS (race matched to local ice, 1 jump away), 2 advanced labs and 2 normal labs. The advanced labs have more copy slots than the normal labs and the normal labs have more invention slots than the advanced labs. 2 of each is just about optimal depending on how many BPO's you want to invent with. Overall very cheap to run because you don't need guns or any crap like that (if you get a wardec, just unanchor it back to your local office) and as it's a small POS it doesn't use a huge amount of fuel.
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Dealth Striker
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.16 23:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Greg Huff Edited by: Greg Huff on 16/05/2011 10:54:42
The only negative is that our station has 35% refining. We compensate this by dropping ore in another station (Level 4 mission hub) and moving the minerals back home. It's a very minor inconvenience for having the rent at rock-bottom.
Maybe have someone train scrapmetal processing to lvl 5? ---------------------
Communication is Key! |
Dealth Striker
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.17 00:03:00 -
[19]
Originally by: TravisWB Edited by: TravisWB on 16/05/2011 18:03:10 Hisec pos for indy corp? We have one of those, OFFLINE.
They are useless my friend. All you can really do is ME PE and copy. NPC invention and actually PE slots are almost always available.
It does not take long to have a large collection of over-researched BPOs that enable you to make stuff on the speculation that somebody might buy it.
I suggest you just purchase a LOT of ready to go BPCs if you want to waste time making stuff to sell at a loss.
BUT, if you must do it, all you need is a small tower, 3 labs and that is it. Don't buy anything else for it and just use a basic tower that uses the local ice.
Found this all out the hard way ---------------------
Communication is Key! |
Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.05.17 02:29:00 -
[20]
Originally by: TravisWB
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: TravisWB I suggest you just purchase a LOT of ready to go BPCs if you want to waste time making stuff to sell at a loss.
I currently have 20 billion invested in materials in manufacturing, and about 15 billion in BPO, so yes, don't go into industry as there is no ISK in it
You prove the point. For that level of isk activity you almost certainly have the unfair advantage of owning unobtainable T2 BPOs.
Cause you sure as ell sure aint a tech 1 multibillionaire.
What a dumbass. I've got 15 to 20 billion in T1 BPOs and I make a few billion a month from them and I don't even build from them.
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Shadowed Figure
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Posted - 2011.05.17 04:09:00 -
[21]
Thanks all for the replies. I'm very much keeping up with the conversation, I've just been busy recently.
Tau and Hockston mentioned manufacturing slots - I agree those are critical and I feel like an idiot for forgetting about that. Most of what we do is T1 production, and we're bumping into trading volume limits on some of what we sell so the slower production at NPC stations wouldn't be an issue there.
Originally by: Adrian Idaho You seem to be focused on mining.
No, not really. We may try to get miners interested later, though, so it's worth considering.
Greg Huff mentioned "proximity to skillbook-selling stations" which is another thing I hadn't though of. We'll consider it.
I'm not that worried about the price of office rental - if we need to pay 20M instead of 2M to get a POS one jump closer to our trade hub, well, that's a single L4, so assuming it'd save us a half-hour or so of hauling over the month it'd be worth it.
How much safer is setting up a POS in 0.6 or 0.7 vs. 0.5? Phrased another way, what motivates people to wardec POS's that don't have obviously blingy modules lying around? If there are plenty of moons in a particular system with anchored-but-offline towers, would our anchored-and-online-and-tons-of-ECM-anchored tower likely be ignored?
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Adrian Idaho
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Posted - 2011.05.17 05:54:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dealth Striker
Originally by: Greg Huff Edited by: Greg Huff on 16/05/2011 10:54:42
The only negative is that our station has 35% refining. We compensate this by dropping ore in another station (Level 4 mission hub) and moving the minerals back home. It's a very minor inconvenience for having the rent at rock-bottom.
Maybe have someone train scrapmetal processing to lvl 5?
And what good would this do? Scrapmetal Processing does not affect refining of ores.
Originally by: Shadowed Figure How much safer is setting up a POS in 0.6 or 0.7 vs. 0.5?
That doesn't make a difference, since nobody's gonna suicide your POS
Originally by: Shadowed Figure If there are plenty of moons in a particular system with anchored-but-offline towers, would our anchored-and-online-and-tons-of-ECM-anchored tower likely be ignored?
If it's the space they are after, then you'd be ignored in favor of the offline towers.
Note that since there will be a lot of corp members that have standings, tearing down a tower when you get wardecced is not really an option, since you'd have to boot everyone for a week after the war is over.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
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Posted - 2011.05.17 05:57:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 17/05/2011 06:03:23
Originally by: Breaker77 What a dumbass. I've got 15 to 20 billion in T1 BPOs and I make a few billion a month from them and I don't even build from them.
I hope this is directed at me, because, I admit I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer (some might suggest the tool drawer would be more appropriate for me, but I digress).
Replying to everyone reading and not directly to Breaker77:
That's the point though. If a moron like me can figure out even a small part of the EVE market, think of what those that are smarter and far less lazy than I can achieve.
Everyone has the opportunity to do exactly what I do, and I'm betting it can be done better. Heck, Breaker77 and others already do.
Don't give up on industry because someone else didn't have luck with it. Try it for yourself and see if it suits you.
Originally by: Shadowed Figure How much safer is setting up a POS in 0.6 or 0.7 vs. 0.5? Phrased another way, what motivates people to wardec POS's that don't have obviously blingy modules lying around? If there are plenty of moons in a particular system with anchored-but-offline towers, would our anchored-and-online-and-tons-of-ECM-anchored tower likely be ignored?
I don't think there is a difference between sec level, since a wardec makes that moot. For the most part, the main concern is a wardec by a merc corp.
I think it is more important to find a system and station you like. However, you may find the higher sec systems have a lower occupancy.
Oh and another point that I didn't see mentioned: if you use a large ship like a freighter a lot, that can affect your choice.
Examples of annoyances: * Stations far from the gate and/or POS that take forever to warp to. * Stations that eject you in the opposite direction of the gate or POS. * Busy stations where you are likely to get bumped. * Stations where warp to zero never seems to mean zero.
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.05.17 09:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 17/05/2011 06:37:08
Originally by: Breaker77 What a dumbass. I've got 15 to 20 billion in T1 BPOs and I make a few billion a month from them and I don't even build from them.
I hope this is directed at me, because, I admit I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer (some might suggest the tool drawer would be more appropriate for me, but I digress).
No this is for the guy who thinks the only ISK to be made from blueprints is owning a T2 BPO. A majority of T2 BPOs are NOT an ISK printing machine.
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Cyniac
Gallente Twilight Star Rangers
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Posted - 2011.05.18 14:38:00 -
[25]
A few others -
Stations in system - 1 with industry facilities is a minimum but more is better 3-4 is nice) reason for this - if you are wardeced in highsec and you decide not to take down the POS a single station in system is a pain as it can easily get camped. Not to mention systems with a single station tend to have higher costs for corp offices.
Consider distance not only to your sell markets but to your supply markets too - are your suppliers located in a certain area? Will you save costs by being close to them? If all you deal with is Jita then that's fine though.
Gates - more is better. Always. Dead end systems can be locked out very easily.
I also tend to prefer quiet systems. This may be in conflict with the need for several gates - find the balance that's right for you.
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