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Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.05.20 16:03:00 - [61] Originally by: t'raq mardon But it will stop AFK cloakers from logging on, cloaking up, and then walking away from the computer there is nothing wrong with that. No solution required for a non-existing problem.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.05.20 19:24:00 - [62] Originally by: TheBooky I know you have a hard time understanding everything said in this forums that doesn't mean removal of local or keeping the status quo but I will try one more time. I wasn't talking to you, but I do love the irony in that sentence. Originally by: TheBooky Just because they are removed from local does not mean its clear now which will destroy null sec as well as high sec whenever some one goes to war. Correct, it doesn't mean it's clear. I've not once said it did, nor do I want a change. Originally by: TheBooky Just because you believe the reason that they are afk is to stop operations in reality they only do it to fool people into thinking they are afk and as such allowing hot drops. I've never once said, it was to stop operations. I've stated time and again, it's to subvert the 100%, risk free instant intel tool, called local. But you've just proved my point, thanks for that. Also this is an AFK argument, so I'll ignore the hot drop one-upmanship. Originally by: TheBooky If you remove them from local then you just get their jobs done faster allowing them to get more kills versus an enemy that can not defend itself. That is irrelevant, we are discussing the AFK aspect, not the active. Please keep up. Originally by: TheBooky Also from a programing side it would be very difficult to program this as you would have to setup multiple functions that control whether or not you can be seen in local, who can see you, when to send, among a multitude of others where as now its as simple as are you online, are you in system. Originally by: t'raq mardon You do know that the reason people afk cloak is not to "subvert the all seeing eye" right? If you really believe that, why even suggest removing them from local in the first place? But it's blindingly obvious, that without local, AFK cloaking would be pointless. Originally by: t'raq mardon It's to stop the players in that system from making isk from running anomalies, there by making them an easier target in a war since they are less capable of replacing their ships. A carrier is not a cheap ship to loose and a cloaked red in your system SHOULD stop you from using it. SHOULD stop you? Are you changing your mind now? You're all over the place, calm down chap. Originally by: t'raq mardon having the ability to stay in system indefinitely with no need to actually be playing means you can stop other players from earning the isk they use to kill you, and you can do so at the cost of 1M isk. They don't stop you, you stop you. It's your fear that prevents you from undocking etc. I see you avoided answering the question, are you running out of arguments? Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
TheBooky	Posted - 2011.05.20 21:19:00 - [63] Look I can play the disprove the quotes game too Originally by: Mag's Correct, it doesn't mean it's clear. I've not once said it did, nor do I want a change. You have multiple times in this thread called it a risk free intel tool and saying had terrible that is. If it is risk free and terrible how can you possibly claim that you do not want change. You are seriously complaining about a feature and then saying... but there is nothing wrong with it. Originally by: Mag's I've never once said, it was to stop operations. I've stated time and again, it's to subvert the 100%, risk free instant intel tool, called local. But you've just proved my point, thanks for that. Also this is an AFK argument, so I'll ignore the hot drop one-upmanship. But I am not mad with them just being AFK. I say you can be afk as much as you like however if you are afk I should either know where you are at or be able to kill you. The fact that a person can be afk, and then not be afk to hot drop me is the problem not the fact that they are AFK. I say be afk as much as you want, cloak as much as you want however you should not be able to cloak in a system, stop that systems operations because no matter how big your alliance you either need a fleet in system on stand by in which you will never bait them or not do anything to avoid being hot dropped. While a spool up on cyno would fix some things it doesn't help when you are attacked by a stealth bomber as even with spool up he is often going too fast for up to a minute if you are in a normal battleship for you to hit or kill him. So you would also need to limit the size of ship that can be sent by cyno, and limit the time the cyno is up by how many ships jump in and a million other fixes. Originally by: Mag's That is irrelevant, we are discussing the AFK aspect, not the active. Please keep up. read above.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.05.20 22:40:00 - [64] Originally by: TheBooky Look I can play the disprove the quotes game too Let me know when you start. Originally by: TheBooky You have multiple times in this thread called it a risk free intel tool and saying had terrible that is. If it is risk free and terrible how can you possibly claim that you do not want change. You are seriously complaining about a feature and then saying... but there is nothing wrong with it. It is a 100% risk free intel tool. What ever you do with the intel it gives you, is down to you. It cannot be held responsible for what ever actions you take in regards to the intel it provides. It gives information without bias and it requires no fee, or special modification to work. I've not once said that it's terrible, nor have I complained about it. I've simply stated how it works and what it provides. You should really try to read and comprehend before you post. Originally by: TheBooky But I am not mad with them just being AFK. I say you can be afk as much as you like however if you are afk I should either know where you are at or be able to kill you. The fact that a person can be afk, and then not be afk to hot drop me is the problem not the fact that they are AFK. I say be afk as much as you want, cloak as much as you want however you should not be able to cloak in a system, stop that systems operations because no matter how big your alliance you either need a fleet in system on stand by in which you will never bait them or not do anything to avoid being hot dropped. Being AFK is a way of subverting local, but it still requires you to allow the subversion to work. Hence why they call it psychological warfare, it all takes place in your brain. But without local, AFK cloaking would be pointless. I know you really want to include hot dropping, you feel it makes your point more valid, it doesn't. It is not directly related to AFK cloaking as it's not the reason for it, local is. It's just a side effect, a means of upping the stakes. Rather like you are trying to do, by including it in this discussion. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
TheBooky	Posted - 2011.05.20 23:27:00 - [65] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: TheBooky Look I can play the disprove the quotes game too Let me know when you start. Originally by: TheBooky You have multiple times in this thread called it a risk free intel tool and saying had terrible that is. If it is risk free and terrible how can you possibly claim that you do not want change. You are seriously complaining about a feature and then saying... but there is nothing wrong with it. It is a 100% risk free intel tool. What ever you do with the intel it gives you, is down to you. It cannot be held responsible for what ever actions you take in regards to the intel it provides. It gives information without bias and it requires no fee, or special modification to work. I've not once said that it's terrible, nor have I complained about it. I've simply stated how it works and what it provides. You should really try to read and comprehend before you post. Originally by: TheBooky But I am not mad with them just being AFK. I say you can be afk as much as you like however if you are afk I should either know where you are at or be able to kill you. The fact that a person can be afk, and then not be afk to hot drop me is the problem not the fact that they are AFK. I say be afk as much as you want, cloak as much as you want however you should not be able to cloak in a system, stop that systems operations because no matter how big your alliance you either need a fleet in system on stand by in which you will never bait them or not do anything to avoid being hot dropped. Being AFK is a way of subverting local, but it still requires you to allow the subversion to work. Hence why they call it psychological warfare, it all takes place in your brain. But without local, AFK cloaking would be pointless. I know you really want to include hot dropping, you feel it makes your point more valid, it doesn't. It is not directly related to AFK cloaking as it's not the reason for it, local is. It's just a side effect, a means of upping the stakes. Rather like you are trying to do, by including it in this discussion. However by saying local is the problem you insinuate that local should be removed like the rest of the people who say local is a problem. Yes it may be psychological warfare but only up until the point you are hot dropped at which point its just warfare. So while you can call is psychological warfare, nuclear bombs are also psychological up until the point the city they explode apon which is why no one uses them. Same with guns and bigger numbers, its all psychological up until the point that someone uses it. It is no long psychological in eve as if we ignore the intel we die, if we don't ignore it we do nothing as such you are no longer doing it because there is a neutral you acting the way you are as there is a real threat. While the AFK part is not the problem while you are allowed to cloak in a system for days on end you too have a 100% risk free intel tool that even the people living there do not get the luxury of
DetKhord Saisio Caldari UnchainedPotential Hand That Feeds	Posted - 2011.05.21 00:00:00 - [66] Not sure I agree with system-wide de-cloak array anchored to a POS tower. Defense of WH space is a tricky thing... no local chat, cloaked enemy ship(s) nearby. You could train up Starbase Defense Management as an option. Are you sure this is a necessary balancing of cloak ships? The POS needs to be protected against attack with guns, but one or two ships might have trouble putting your tower in re-enforced. /Not supported at this time <Nothing important to see here, move along.> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.05.21 08:02:00 - [67] Originally by: TheBooky However by saying local is the problem you insinuate that local should be removed like the rest of the people who say local is a problem. You've been continually stating, I've said things I haven't. You've been wrong all those times and you are wrong again. Pointing out the obvious, is simply that. It doesn't insinuate anything, especially when I've stated over and over, that I like the status quo. I've also said, CCP have yet to find a suitable replacement package. It's not an easy task and one they have been looking at, for quite some time. Originally by: TheBooky Yes it may be psychological warfare but only up until the point you are hot dropped at which point its just warfare. So while you can call is psychological warfare, nuclear bombs are also psychological up until the point the city they explode apon which is why no one uses them. Same with guns and bigger numbers, its all psychological up until the point that someone uses it. Obviously, but then it's no longer about being AFK in local chat(the topic at hand). So it's not the issue we were discussing, no matter how desperate you want it to be. Originally by: TheBooky It is no long psychological in eve as if we ignore the intel we die, if we don't ignore it we do nothing as such you are no longer doing it because there is a neutral you acting the way you are as there is a real threat. If understood that sentence correctly, I'll reply as follows. Local chat gives you instant intel, it's the instant part they are trying to subvert. They want to catch you off guard, because you know they are there. With the instant being subverted this way, the psychological part kicks in, but that doesn't mean it will affect everyone. It's not a perfect weapon. Do you honestly think this a new type of warfare? It's been talking place in Eve for ages. Many in null sec change certain things and carry on. But many like the OP, believe it's their right to rat in carriers or expensive fit PvE ships. That is their undoing. Originally by: TheBooky While the AFK part is not the problem while you are allowed to cloak in a system for days on end you too have a 100% risk free intel tool that even the people living there do not get the luxury of I'm having a hard time understanding, what you are trying to say. I'll give it a go. Everyone has use of local, the AFK guy, the people who live there, everyone. It gives the same unbiased instant intel to all. The AFK guy knows this and tries to reduce it's effectiveness. Many locals know this and make changes, when someone is in the system for a long time. Some simply refuse to acknowledge the reasons for AFKing and want even more power on top of the already powerful local intel tool. For those, it's easier to whine on the forums whilst docked up in their carriers. But this all is getting off track, to the one question I was asking t'raq mardon. Of which he's yet to answer. If like he suggests, people that are cloaked get removed from local chat. Then why does this also need a mechanic, to stop people from going AFK? (I don't actually like this idea, as it does make cloaking somewhat OP.) Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.05.21 08:23:00 - [68] I'd also like to point out that you have no way to know when or if said cloaker is afk. For all you know he's sitting there at his computer the whole time. ..which means if any of these odd systematic cloaking nerfs actually happened you may in fact have changed nothing for yourself.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.05.23 13:40:00 - [69] Originally by: Barbara Nichole I'd also like to point out that you have no way to know when or if said cloaker is afk. For all you know he's sitting there at his computer the whole time. ..which means if any of these odd systematic cloaking nerfs actually happened you may in fact have changed nothing for yourself. very true, and as long as he is sitting at the computer interacting with the game i am fine with him sitting there. Its the fact that he CAN walk away from the computer, and knows with absolute certainty that he is going to be completely safe.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.05.23 13:44:00 - [70] Originally by: t'raq mardon Originally by: Barbara Nichole I'd also like to point out that you have no way to know when or if said cloaker is afk. For all you know he's sitting there at his computer the whole time. ..which means if any of these odd systematic cloaking nerfs actually happened you may in fact have changed nothing for yourself. very true, and as long as he is sitting at the computer interacting with the game i am fine with him sitting there. Its the fact that he CAN walk away from the computer, and knows with absolute certainty that he is going to be completely safe. It's a shame you can see him in local and that fact affects you so much. CCP should come up with a replacement package for local. Then you wouldn't need to rely, on it's instant intel so much. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.

Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.05.23 14:01:00 - [71] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 23/05/2011 14:04:12 Originally by: t'raq mardon very true, and as long as he is sitting at the computer interacting with the game i am fine with him sitting there. Its the fact that he CAN walk away from the computer, and knows with absolute certainty that he is going to be completely safe. being able of blobbing out/finding everyone you dont like in a particular system would be overpowered. Hostile-free space is a luxury you should not be able to obtain with some kind of cheap game mechanic or module. Afk cloaking is fine and aims exactly at the similarly imbalanced tool named local, which doesnt have any direct counter.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.05.23 19:42:00 - [72] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 23/05/2011 14:04:12 Originally by: t'raq mardon very true, and as long as he is sitting at the computer interacting with the game i am fine with him sitting there. Its the fact that he CAN walk away from the computer, and knows with absolute certainty that he is going to be completely safe. being able of blobbing out/finding everyone you dont like in a particular system would be overpowered. Hostile-free space is a luxury you should not be able to obtain with some kind of cheap game mechanic or module. Afk cloaking is fine and aims exactly at the similarly imbalanced tool named local, which doesnt have any direct counter. nor should you be able to be a permanent presence in someone else's space with no possibility of losing your ship
Shieldss Northern Freight Unlimited Clockwork Pineapple	Posted - 2011.05.23 20:12:00 - [73] Originally by: t'raq mardon Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 23/05/2011 14:04:12 Originally by: t'raq mardon very true, and as long as he is sitting at the computer interacting with the game i am fine with him sitting there. Its the fact that he CAN walk away from the computer, and knows with absolute certainty that he is going to be completely safe. being able of blobbing out/finding everyone you dont like in a particular system would be overpowered. Hostile-free space is a luxury you should not be able to obtain with some kind of cheap game mechanic or module. Afk cloaking is fine and aims exactly at the similarly imbalanced tool named local, which doesnt have any direct counter. nor should you be able to be a permanent presence in someone else's space with no possibility of losing your ship Nor should you be able to permanently remove the possibility of losing your ship because of people showing up in local. And let's not start with how you "own" the space you are in. You can just as easily NOT own that space.
Shepard Book	Posted - 2011.05.23 20:26:00 - [74] Something that effects an entire system...Talk about over powered. Go back to high sec. Remove local!
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.05.23 21:12:00 - [75] Originally by: Shieldss Originally by: t'raq mardon Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 23/05/2011 14:04:12 Originally by: t'raq mardon very true, and as long as he is sitting at the computer interacting with the game i am fine with him sitting there. Its the fact that he CAN walk away from the computer, and knows with absolute certainty that he is going to be completely safe. being able of blobbing out/finding everyone you dont like in a particular system would be overpowered. Hostile-free space is a luxury you should not be able to obtain with some kind of cheap game mechanic or module. Afk cloaking is fine and aims exactly at the similarly imbalanced tool named local, which doesnt have any direct counter. nor should you be able to be a permanent presence in someone else's space with no possibility of losing your ship Nor should you be able to permanently remove the possibility of losing your ship because of people showing up in local. And let's not start with how you "own" the space you are in. You can just as easily NOT own that space. The only time my ship isn't in danger of being killed is when i am docked and considering the closest station is about 8 jumps away from me that doesn't happen very often. The closest to being safe i ever am is when i am inside a POS which cost hundreds of millions of isk plus fuel and can be completely destroyed in a mater of days. The neutral that floats in my system on the other hand is not even in friendly space yet he is completely safe for an infinite amount of time. And its my space as much as my land in RL is mine. Just because i claim it's mine doesn't not mean others can't come on it. The only way i "own" it is as long as the governing body that recognizes me as the owner exists. As long as i act like its mine it is.
Cocoa Bean	Posted - 2011.05.23 23:27:00 - [76] Cloaking bothers you so much it's worth coming to your space and cloaking up permanently. Its worth the tears, so expect more afk cloakers coming your way. Alot of tears here.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.05.24 08:29:00 - [77] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 24/05/2011 08:33:26 Originally by: t'raq mardon nor should you be able to be a permanent presence in someone else's space with no possibility of losing your ship here is where you fail to understand. Its not "someones" space, its for everyone. Besides the fact that "no possibility of losing your ship" is utter bulls*it, as soon as you decloak there is a big chance of losing your ship if you arent dealing with absolute dumbasses who dont deserve being in zero anyways. In station or logged, there you have no chance of losing your ship, thats right.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.05.24 15:10:00 - [78] Originally by: Cocoa Bean Cloaking bothers you so much it's worth coming to your space and cloaking up permanently. Its worth the tears, so expect more afk cloakers coming your way. Alot of tears here. Yet another case and point for nerfing afk cloaking. It is often done with the sole intention of harassing others. If you want to harass other player you should at least be forced to be sitting at your computer as well.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.05.24 16:04:00 - [79] Originally by: t'raq mardon Yet another case and point for nerfing afk cloaking. It is often done with the sole intention of harassing others. is harassing the enemies not what the 0.0 is for?? Doing this all the time by sitting afk in their systems, by killing their ratters, by camping gates, whatever. Go back to high sec if you cant handle that.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.05.25 02:22:00 - [80] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: t'raq mardon Yet another case and point for nerfing afk cloaking. It is often done with the sole intention of harassing others. is harassing the enemies not what the 0.0 is for?? Doing this all the time by sitting afk in their systems, by killing their ratters, by camping gates, whatever. Go back to high sec if you cant handle that. Every other thing that you named there requires interaction with the game. Cloaking does not

Tubares Shting	Posted - 2011.05.25 04:23:00 - [81] Originally by: t'raq mardon I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. I'm scared to undock. Oh look, this is all I see when I read your posts.
Kalia Masaer Amarr Border Defense Consortium	Posted - 2011.05.25 05:07:00 - [82] A mod that will reveal cloakers isn't such a bad idea but it needs to have a minimum 10 minute warm up delay that is announced in local every minute announced in local when it starts. Also it would have to be limited one to a system and only be able to cover a limited area no more than a 5 AU Sphere. It would then essentially only stop truly afk cloakers.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.05.25 22:04:00 - [83] Originally by: Kalia Masaer A mod that will reveal cloakers isn't such a bad idea but it needs to have a minimum 10 minute warm up delay that is announced in local every minute announced in local when it starts. Also it would have to be limited one to a system and only be able to cover a limited area no more than a 5 AU Sphere. It would then essentially only stop truly afk cloakers. Wouldn't help much if you were in a system that was 100AU wide


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