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Jack Oat
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Posted - 2011.05.18 21:14:00 -
[1]
First of all i want to stress that this proposal intended to limit AFK and not cloaky gameplay.
The idea is to introduce a POS module that will generate a system wide wave of particles that will stop all cloaking devices momentarily. Now any player will be able to recloak after reactivation timer of their cloaking device. AFK players will be vulnurable to a combat probe scan.
The POS module will require some kind of fuel, it should have reactivation delay of some length 15-60 minutes, it also may require sov level or even i-hub upgrade.
Something is needed to stop 23hour AFK cloakers especially after latest updates in 0.0. As of now there is nothing one can do except always be ready for a hotdrop from a titan or Blackops.
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Danika Princip
Minmatar Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.05.18 21:18:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Danika Princip on 18/05/2011 21:18:04 There are a dozen threads about this active right now. Did you really have to add another one?
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tester Malukker
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Posted - 2011.05.18 21:34:00 -
[3]
Yes.
I have a guy in arazu with 2 cyno generators (covert and regular), titian and covert hotdrops were made. He sits 23 hours online and we have guys like him almost in every system with SS lower -0.6, sometimes more then one.
The problem is they only risk their ships for a few seconds, when they ready to make their move and we are vulnurable 23 hours when we undock.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.05.18 22:04:00 -
[4]
Remove local, then you don't see them any more.
While ever local remains in it's current form, AFK cloaking is a viable counter to subvert it's use.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.05.19 02:50:00 -
[5]
Unlike the other non-actionable "fix this because I don't like it" thread, this proposal actually has some merit as a way to address the problem.
I would suggest though that a complete uncloaking (until they recloak) of the adversary is a little too powerful. The purpose of a black ops cloaker IS to hot drop a fleet after all.
Perhaps make it such that each 'pulse' allows the cloaked ship to be combat probed for a small window in time, say 1-5min (subject to tweaking). You want the chance to be low enough such that unless you have a lot of people probing for him, you will need more than one pulse to pinpoint the cloaker. Once found, he is still cloaked, so you still have to find the ship in a 15km radius sphere.
Basically, the mechanic should fulfill the following points: (up for discussion)
1) It should cost the POS fuel to do the pulse. (plus the module upgrade) 2) It should make someone who is afk for more than 6 hours findable, but with difficulty. 2) It should make someone who is afk for more than 12 hours findable with reasonable effort. 3) It should make someone who is afk for more than 23 hours findable with relative ease. 4) It should maintain that someone who is cloaked but not afk, almost impossible to find. 5) Not decloak the cloaker. (too powerful, would gimp BO ships, not to mention tough to implement technically)
Difficulty can be overcome by adding more people probing and scanning.
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t'raq mardon
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Posted - 2011.05.19 05:41:00 -
[6]
Let me try to sum up all of the arguments against the concept of your idea, which is to nerf AFK cloaking.
-Its not an actual problem, if they are afk just ignore them -afk cloaking is how we "counter local" -only if you nerf docking -you must be a botter
and all these arguments will come from the same 6 or so players, over and over and over again without making ANY actual points.
lets see how close I am
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.05.19 07:38:00 -
[7]
Originally by: t'raq mardon Let me try to sum up all of the arguments against the concept of your idea, which is to nerf AFK cloaking.
-Its not an actual problem, if they are afk just ignore them -afk cloaking is how we "counter local" -only if you nerf docking -you must be a botter
and all these arguments will come from the same 6 or so players, over and over and over again without making ANY actual points.
lets see how close I am
It is a counter to local, you just don't want to lose local. Tell me this, putting aside the differences, just how many AFK cloak threads to you see from WH dwellers? Sure it's not the same space and entrance is not the same, but I'd love for you to point me to one.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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Eperor
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Posted - 2011.05.19 07:44:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Eperor on 19/05/2011 07:44:45 that is a problem in eve you cant jsut ingnor them they atack to not only sit cloucked but between atacks can go serveral days or weeks, so everyone duing that time is strest i nthat systme point to get rid off them its that not interaction sit in system afk. they need to have soem time to gettatrget but not all the eve time.
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Jack Oat
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Posted - 2011.05.19 08:22:00 -
[9]
Originally by: t'raq mardon Let me try to sum up all of the arguments against the concept of your idea, which is to nerf AFK cloaking.
-Its not an actual problem, if they are afk just ignore them -afk cloaking is how we "counter local" -only if you nerf docking -you must be a botter
and all these arguments will come from the same 6 or so players, over and over and over again without making ANY actual points.
lets see how close I am
If you ignore them/fly in groups they prepare a titan hotdrop for example: 4tengu,2hugin,2 sabre,3scimitars, 4 ceptors + an option for more so ignoring them is not a real option.
Local should not be countered. There is a lot of other tactics, besides, if you want to do a hotdrop look at the screen and nothing will harm you, just recloak and continue watching the system.
"nerf docking" i can't see the point here... you can fly to a pos/safespots.
I'm not a bot, i'm AGAINST boting, but with 1 bastard AFKing in my system miners went to empire and carebears running missions. And i personally think that AFK cloakers ARE botters, i just want an OPTION to kill the guy when he is AFK.
The actual point is AFK cloakers disrupt a gameplay of many real people without taking almost any risk, the only option to counter them right now is to have a hotdrop ready titan on standby with large enough gang which is unrealistic for renters.
The actual point is that AFK cloakers given, imho, unfair advantage not in the cloaking part, but in AFK part: They disrupt a gameplay for 24 hours/day without investing 24 hours a day Usually there is no retribution possible since overwhelming force hotdropped
I only want an OPTION to fight them and not the whole alliance standing behind them.
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Jack Oat
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Posted - 2011.05.19 08:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 19/05/2011 04:53:59 Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 19/05/2011 04:52:46 Unlike the other non-actionable "fix afk cloaks because I don't like it" threads, this proposal actually has some merit and gives a possible way to address the problem.
I would suggest though that a complete uncloaking (until they recloak) of the adversary is a little too powerful. The purpose of a black ops cloaker IS to hot drop a fleet after all.
Perhaps make it such that each 'pulse' allows the cloaked ship to be combat probed for a small window in time, say 1-5min (subject to tweaking). You want the chance to be low enough such that unless you have a lot of people probing for him, you will need more than one pulse to pinpoint the cloaker. Once found you can warp to him, but he is still cloaked, so you still have to find the ship in a 15km radius sphere.
Basically, the mechanic should fulfill the following points: (up for discussion)
1) It should cost the POS fuel to do the pulse. (plus the module upgrade) 2) It should make someone who is afk for more than 6 hours findable, but with difficulty. 2) It should make someone who is afk for more than 12 hours findable with reasonable effort. 3) It should make someone who is afk for more than 23 hours findable with relative ease. 4) It should maintain that someone who is cloaked but not afk, almost impossible to find. 5) Not decloak the cloaker. (too powerful, would gimp BO ships, not to mention tough to implement technically)
Difficulty can be overcome by adding more people probing and scanning.
The advantages of this method are: 1) it doesn't limit the current BO/covert tactics, you can hotdrop just look at the screen.
2) no new game mechanics like "scanable invisibility"
3) with ballanced costs and timeouts it won't be worth/possible for using as a tactical tool, for example 30-90 min warm-up timeout(before pulse) + 5-10kk cost of fuel per pulse will probably make it not so powerfull.
and again i want to stress the fact that, now we have no REAL option to defend ourselves, all the cards are give to attacking side. Choosing the time, the place and the victim of an attack is good enough advantage, harrasing a players 24h/day is just an unfair bonus.
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tester Malukker
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Posted - 2011.05.19 08:57:00 -
[11]
another advantage came to mind: its an ISK sink ;)
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Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.05.19 08:59:00 -
[12]
Okay, you've convinced me Jack Oat. I'll give you the thumbs. Your proposal is acceptable, with perhaps some tweaking to not affect campers of less than 23h (I think its reasonable for afk cloakers to stay in your system for a whole day, maybe they just dropped offline or something)
So if this pulse can be done only once a day, then I think that would be acceptable.
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Jack Oat
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Posted - 2011.05.19 09:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mag's
It is a counter to local, you just don't want to lose local. Tell me this, putting aside the differences, just how many AFK cloak threads to you see from WH dwellers? Sure it's not the same space and entrance is not the same, but I'd love for you to point me to one.
WH is a bit different, you can't open cyno there. You can't jump whole bunch of people to a point of your choosing instantly, and send a capital reinforcement if needed.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.05.19 09:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jack Oat Edited by: Jack Oat on 19/05/2011 09:40:16
Originally by: Mag's
It is a counter to local, you just don't want to lose local. Tell me this, putting aside the differences, just how many AFK cloak threads to you see from WH dwellers? Sure it's not the same space and entrance is not the same, but I'd love for you to point me to one.
WH is a bit different, you can't open cyno there. You can't jump whole bunch of people to a point of your choosing instantly, and send a capital reinforcement if needed.
BTW removing local goes both ways and choosing a weak target in almost empty systems becomes more of a challenge.
I must not have mentioned they were different. Oh wait. Cyno is a whole other matter and I have in fact suggested a change before in regards to this. But if they are using a cyno, they are not AFK.
I guess you couldn't find an AFK cloaky WH thread. Oh well.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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foksieloy
Minmatar Rockets ponies and rainbows
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Posted - 2011.05.19 09:52:00 -
[15]
- Bind mwd to f2, bind cloak to f1.
- As you reach a safe spot start moving in random direction.
- Put rock on f1 and f2 keys.
- ?
- Profit
_______________________ The best thing in EvE is Barrage M. |
Jack Oat
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Posted - 2011.05.19 10:48:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mag's
I must not have mentioned they were different. Oh wait. Cyno is a whole other matter and I have in fact suggested a change before in regards to this. But if they are using a cyno, they are not AFK.
I guess you couldn't find an AFK cloaky WH thread. Oh well.
Local is removed in WH, but the attackers can't bring capitals.
Ballance is the problem, with afk cloakers ballance went to hell. I'm looking on the problem from a standpoint of a small space renting corp.
All the cards are given to the attackers: they know the enemy, (cloaky recons when they aren't AFK all over the place) they know themselves, they choose the time and the place of the battle, (usually when they overpower the enemy by numbers or quality or both) the only thing they don't have is "I win now" button.
When being AFK is not safe, at least local population could mobilize or hide.
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Jack Oat
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Posted - 2011.05.19 10:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: foksieloy
- Bind mwd to f2, bind cloak to f1.
- As you reach a safe spot start moving in random direction.
- Put rock on f1 and f2 keys.
- ?
- Profit
isn't putting a rock on keys called botting? ;)
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Cyberus
Caldari WEPRA CORP WILD BOARS
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Posted - 2011.05.19 14:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jack Oat
Originally by: foksieloy
- Bind mwd to f2, bind cloak to f1.
- As you reach a safe spot start moving in random direction.
- Put rock on f1 and f2 keys.
- ?
- Profit
isn't putting a rock on keys called botting? ;)
Its not botting...... so far i know rock is an pure nature.
ohh and not supported ===== * Your signature file is broken. Please use one that will display - Fallout |
Annushka Lis
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Posted - 2011.05.19 15:03:00 -
[19]
it's good really great
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t'raq mardon
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Posted - 2011.05.19 15:39:00 -
[20]
Mags:
If ccp gets rid of local i will be fine with it, but it wouldn't change the fact that having a ship in your system with no one behind the wheel that you have absolutely no means of hunting down and killing is a flaw.
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Danika Princip
Minmatar Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.05.19 15:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: t'raq mardon Mags:
If ccp gets rid of local i will be fine with it, but it wouldn't change the fact that having a ship in your system with no one behind the wheel that you have absolutely no means of hunting down and killing is a flaw.
But without local, you and your bots won't be able to tell there's a ship in 'your' system, not that you've ever been outside of highsec. Without local, the cloaky uboat crowd can pop you before you know they are there.
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Zartel
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Posted - 2011.05.19 16:04:00 -
[22]
Really good idea, should do the deal of that bot cloacker(s) just sitting in afk paralizing all action in the system.
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Sibir1
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Posted - 2011.05.19 16:19:00 -
[23]
it's really good idea!
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Radro
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Posted - 2011.05.19 16:24:00 -
[24]
I don't see a problem here...
1. Online a cynojammer. 2. Make common fleet for hunters to quickly react if someone is tackled. 3. Keep your pvp ships ready.
That solves problems with afk cloakers.
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Silent Dodger
Bad Robot Inc. Red Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.19 16:29:00 -
[25]
Good idia “There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.”
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.05.19 16:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: t'raq mardon Mags:
If ccp gets rid of local i will be fine with it, but it wouldn't change the fact that having a ship in your system with no one behind the wheel that you have absolutely no means of hunting down and killing is a flaw.
Without local, AFK cloaking would be pointless. So your argument is flawed, not cloaking.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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Stragerman
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Posted - 2011.05.19 16:48:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Stragerman on 19/05/2011 16:54:27 Well, sounds good. These measures will make carebare life in null-null sec a bit better and all this situation with AFK cloakers more .... i don't know... honest towards real players :)
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Danika Princip
Minmatar Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.05.19 16:53:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Stragerman Well, sounds good. It will let players prevent hotdrops. These measures will make carebare life in null a bit better and all this situation with AFK cloakers more .... i don't know... honest towards real players :)
Fly to system in red space with highest number of NPC kills (according to dotlan)
Log out
Log in at peak activity (dotlan again)
light cyno
bang, hotdrops without the warning that having a cloaky in system provides.
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Kivach
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Posted - 2011.05.19 17:09:00 -
[29]
Quote: All the cards are given to the attackers: they know the enemy, (cloaky recons when they aren't AFK all over the place) they know themselves, they choose the time and the place of the battle, (usually when they overpower the enemy by numbers or quality or both) the only thing they don't have is "I win now" button.
Now attackers have a superiority over carebears and other ones. It's pointless to farm in 0.0, because u lose more than you earn there.
Quote: I don't see a problem here... 1. Online a cynojammer. 2. Make common fleet for hunters to quickly react if someone is tackled. 3. Keep your pvp ships ready. That solves problems with afk cloakers.
It's impossible to wait them always and makes pvp boring for defenders.
Quote: Fly to system in red space with highest number of NPC kills (according to dotlan) Log out Log in at peak activity (dotlan again) light cyno bang, hotdrops without the warning that having a cloaky in system provides.
There is a little difference. In this situation there's enough time to dock)))
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.05.19 18:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jack Oat Local is removed in WH, but the attackers can't bring capitals.
I mentioned the fact there are differences, but lack of local still means no AFK cloaking.
Originally by: Jack Oat Ballance is the problem, with afk cloakers ballance went to hell. I'm looking on the problem from a standpoint of a small space renting corp.
It matters not what position you look at it from, local is the reason for AFK cloaking. It is the counter to local to try and subvert it's 100% risk free instant intel.
Originally by: Jack Oat All the cards are given to the attackers: they know the enemy, (cloaky recons when they aren't AFK all over the place) they know themselves, they choose the time and the place of the battle, (usually when they overpower the enemy by numbers or quality or both) the only thing they don't have is "I win now" button.
You initially hold all the cards. You know they are there, you have the all seeing eye called local. You can see when they enter local and when they leave. But your reliance upon local to give you instant intel, is being somewhat subverted through the use of AFK cloaking. That's why they have to resort to AFKing, to try and put you off guard.
Originally by: Jack Oat When being AFK is not safe, at least local population could mobilize or hide.
If that ever happens, you'll have way too much power on to of your already powerful intel tool called local. I can see you hate the idea, of losing your all seeing eye.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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