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Lilly la sanglante
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2012.09.06 15:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
No, I do not mean replace torps.
What I do mean , is allowing both weapon systems to be on bombers. Before the bomber change, cruise missiles were the norm.
They were great at hitting smaller targets, such as frigs and cruisers with effective damage. Mainly due to cruise missiles explosion velocity being better, along with a faster travel velocity.
The real lack was against larger targets such as BC's and BS, which the changed with the torps, but in terms of range. It was drastically less and anything cruiser and frig size these days, will make short work of you. Unless you catch them on a gate in null and launched a bomb. (Limited to null)
I propose bringing back cruise launchers as well. Having a secondary weapon system, that allows extreme ranges again, and use against smaller targets.
This would also allow bombers to be really worthwhile in low sec, to be out of gate gun range and you just need a solid tackle at the gate. Bombers are severely limited in low sec, unless you are in a war deck or faction war. Aside from Faction War, low sec is a desolate place in which only ships that can tank gate guns are useful unless you are in a sniping Battleship or Tier 3 BC.
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Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
32
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Posted - 2012.09.06 15:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hmm. I don't know. For me, I understand why you ask this.
Cruise Missile SBs were quite fun for doing mosquito tactics and running away. But on the other hand, it made them most of the time untouchable as it was simple to just warp off/cloak. It makes sense on paper but it is not good for balance if you ask me (not to forget the massive range).
This game of course doesn't follow Rock Scissors Paper all the time, but imo SB needs to have at least some sort of disadvantage - and that is range more or less. Also, SB's main target is nuking larger vessels like BC and BS - and it does that job effectively. Giving it access to kill smaller targets will only make it harder for the other side to counter due to the stuff mentioned above.
Personally, I suggested a "T1 Stealth Fighter" that would be a lighter cloaky tackler + advanced range/expl velocity with light missiles making it a threat for small ships but not being able to bomb the big ships like BC/BS. Thread died. I will develop a T2 variant, since many forum dwellers do not like to think out of the box with T1 stuff.
Nonetheless. I'd have to disagree on giving SBs an additional, mega-range weapon system. I'd rather see a dedicated opposite than a cloaking Swiss Army Knife. Remember, T2 are specialized in a role, give or take. Giving them such versatility with Cruise Missiles would break the T1 ruleset. confirthisposmed
I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
127
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Posted - 2012.09.06 16:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
The idea they were ever good at killing small stuff is just wrong. They never were, and this is pre missile nerf we are talking, todays cruise do nothing to such targets. I do agree about the old fashioned stealth bomber sniper though, so i do think it could be a possibility from that respect.
The above post is a bit naive, very few t2 hulls are bonused only for one weapon set. If you wish you can fit autos on your munin instead of arties, rails on your deimos, tachs on your paladin and still get full effect of hull bonuses.. |
Astroniomix
Thorn Project Black Thorne Alliance
175
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Posted - 2012.09.06 16:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lilly la sanglante wrote: in terms of range. It was drastically less and anything cruiser and frig size these days, will make short work of you. Unless you catch them on a gate in null and launched a bomb. (Limited to null)
Working as intended. |
Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
32
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Posted - 2012.09.06 17:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Doddy wrote:The idea they were ever good at killing small stuff is just wrong. They never were, and this is pre missile nerf we are talking, todays cruise do nothing to such targets. I do agree about the old fashioned stealth bomber sniper though, so i do think it could be a possibility from that respect.
The above post is a bit naive, very few t2 hulls are bonused only for one weapon set. If you wish you can fit autos on your munin instead of arties, rails on your deimos, tachs on your paladin and still get full effect of hull bonuses..
Missed my point. You can of course still fit a Muninn or heck, a Broadsword, as a close range Facemelter or not. You can fit it as you like.
But I'm sticking with the SB factor, and that only - so talking about other T2 hulls is rather misleading and redundant.
My point was also regarfing the OP's demand of tying both Long Range and Short Range aspects on the SB. Cruise Missiles have a lot of range (so do HVY missiles). There has to be some sort of mini-trade off for giving the SBs the CM feature back - for the sake of balance.
But that is my opinion. confirthisposmed
I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Lilly la sanglante
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2012.09.06 20:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Doddy wrote:The idea they were ever good at killing small stuff is just wrong. They never were, and this is pre missile nerf we are talking, todays cruise do nothing to such targets. I do agree about the old fashioned stealth bomber sniper though, so i do think it could be a possibility from that respect.
The above post is a bit naive, very few t2 hulls are bonused only for one weapon set. If you wish you can fit autos on your munin instead of arties, rails on your deimos, tachs on your paladin and still get full effect of hull bonuses..
My first kill with a bomber was 2 shotting a blackbird at 160km out. My 2nd was a ceptor at fairly close range and my 3rd was a Vengeance with a malediction tackle, and i was vastly ahead of damage done..
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9387
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Posted - 2012.09.06 20:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Lilly la sanglante wrote:in terms of range. It was drastically less and anything cruiser and frig size these days, will make short work of you. Unless you catch them on a gate in null and launched a bomb. (Limited to null)
Working as intended. That.
They're meant to die horribly when faced with a smaller ship, because their role is to be a very tiny but also significant threat to much larger ships (and blobs). They also have very nice range as it is, and very handy gtfo-options as a result, and there is nothing in their role they really need cruise missiles for. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Dread Pirate Pete
Tribal Core Defiant Legacy
35
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Posted - 2012.09.06 21:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
You are already hitting for 500dps at 60km, why would you need more range? Do you intend to kite Nagas?
If you for whatever reason want to fight smaller ships you can always fit
-Hound
Auto Auto Rocket Rocket Rocket/Cloak MWD ASB Scram Gyro Gyro DCU Projectile Rig Projectile Rig
146 dps (129 if cloak) 2200 EHP 116 Boost/s heated ASB 2135 m/s |
Ellariona
The Elysian Agoge Elysian Empire
13
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Posted - 2012.09.06 23:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
1. Solo bombers aren't meant to fight frigs 2. A good bomber squad can actually take down frigs with torps (enough painters, webs) 3. With tech II torps and covert ops V, you can easily hit at proper ranges. (include implants and rigs for even better range)
[Nemesis, SNIPE II] Capacitor Power Relay II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Eutectic Capacitor Charge Array Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Torpedo Launcher II, Inferno Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Inferno Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Inferno Javelin Torpedo Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Bomb Launcher I, Lockbreaker Bomb
Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
118.5 km range with Javelin 70.2 with rage
not enough range?
with missile bombardment 5% implant:
124.4 km range with Javelin 73.7 with rage
NOT ENOUGH RANGE?
with 2x tech II missile range rigs you get:
134.8 km range with Javelin 79.9 km range with rage |
Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
32
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Posted - 2012.09.07 02:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
So I guess I wasn't off target :P.
The range is quite high with Torps already. A Rapier that happens to be a painter+webber will be any SBs best cloaky friend.
I arrest my case. confirthisposmed
I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
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Lilly la sanglante
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2012.09.11 19:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Dread Pirate Pete wrote:You are already hitting for 500dps at 60km, why would you need more range? Do you intend to kite Nagas?
If you for whatever reason want to fight smaller ships you can always fit
-Hound
Auto Auto Rocket Rocket Rocket/Cloak MWD ASB Scram Gyro Gyro DCU Projectile Rig Projectile Rig
146 dps (129 if cloak) 2200 EHP 116 Boost/s heated ASB 2135 m/s
Because getting close range against larger tanked t1 frig with inferior weapons with no type of ship bonus for them is a good idea?
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Lilly la sanglante
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2012.09.11 20:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Deena Amaj wrote:So I guess I wasn't off target :P.
The range is quite high with Torps already. A Rapier that happens to be a painter+webber will be any SBs best cloaky friend.
I arrest my case.
So using a specialized ship(recon) to try and kill something small, when the rapier can do it easily itself.. That makes alot of sense...
Get special ships and a couple bombers who overly stack TP's to kill one tiny frig. Makes about as much sense as the poster above who said, fit un-bonused weaker weapons and get into range with superior tanked and gunned ship.
He completely missed the argument.
Also, have you ever used the SB with cruise? Do you realize just how much torps lose in power when trying to hit something so small, and then if they have any movement, it nulls out the damage tenfold.
You can use torp out to 90km with the t2 long range ones, you wont do squat damage, with painters on.
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Lilly la sanglante
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2012.09.11 20:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ellariona wrote:1. Bomber Role: Solo bombers aren't meant to fight frigs 2. Counterargument: One or two bombers can actually take down frigs with torps (enough painters, webs), especially when throwing the bomb first, then putting torps on it whilst painting. 3. Range: With tech II torps and covert ops V, you can easily hit at proper ranges. (include implants and rigs for even better range)
[Nemesis, SNIPE II] Capacitor Power Relay II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Eutectic Capacitor Charge Array Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Torpedo Launcher II, Inferno Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Inferno Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Inferno Javelin Torpedo Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Bomb Launcher I, Lockbreaker Bomb
Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
(you can swap cap stability and inertia/speed for more dps)
118.5 km range with Javelin 70.2 km with rage 79 km with CN
not enough range?
with missile bombardment 5% implant:
124.4 km range with Javelin 73.7 km with rage 82.9 km with CN
NOT ENOUGH RANGE?
with 2x tech II missile range rigs you get:
134.8 km range with Javelin 79.9 km range with rage 89.9 km range with CN
Yes adding implants and rigs you can make most things have noticable longer range, does not mean it will be effective. Torps also fly slow , unlike cruise missiles.
Also have multiple ships to paint and web, makes it a mute point, because those ships who are doing it, can kill the frig without a bomber, so why use the bomber?
Basically no one has come up for a reason to be against it, you are just stating, it can hit range medium range with torps.
So besides do you have an actual reason why it should not have cruise? Considering it did have them before and the cruise did work vs small as well as large ships?
The only thing people really wanted before the change was to be able to warp cloaked and do a little more damage verse larger ships.
So CCP says, lets do a who complete change and make it only really hit larger ships. They could have easily just made cruise do more damage.
Before you can say, well it would make the ship too powerful vs smaller ships. Every battleship weapon can pop frigs and even some cruisers instantly aside from torps. |
Kesthely
Fleet of the Damned Happy Endings
1
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Posted - 2012.09.11 20:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
I-¦ve actually flown cruise bombers and they were fun. The tactical implementations were nice and you cold do a lot of different things with them.
However do i agree that stealth bombers should get the option for cruise as well as torps? NO. I do not find cruise fitted bombers overpowered, but i do find the fact that you can fit a bomb launcher and cruise launcher or torps overpowered. Instead i would love to see the stealth bomber scale up, make a destroyer variant as well, and instead of haveing them have the ability to have a bomb allow them to have cruise launchers. Maybe even have the orbital bombardment role as well? |
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
685
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 20:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
sensor damp |
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