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Sinjin Mokk
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.05.23 12:18:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Tetsu Nakahama As an aid to understanding the issue of standings indicating 'support' or 'opposition', I consider it highly relevant and I was under the impression you were one of the right people to ask regarding Vanguard Imperium standings.
I notice you have not actually answered the question.
In the interests of decorum, I'll keep this brief.
I'd highly suggest you worry about your own standings with us traitor.
New Tales of the Dark Amarr |
Nausea
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.05.23 13:15:00 -
[62]
Ah, so we're here again...
There do indeed exist more states of being than "Best friends for life" and "We will hunt you, your children, and your children's children for all eternity!". Having a siege mentality of 'You're either with us or against us', can cause all sorts of diplomatic problems, (although a want of enemies would not be one of them...).
If you're not an apple, you're an orange.
Originally by: Sinjin Mokk
But since Jade made the point of comparison between ôNRDSö and ôNBSIö letÆs look at it from that standpoint. If a system is NRDS, isnÆt it the responsibility of the sovereign group to keep the peace and prevent it from becoming NBSI? If say, I-RED and SF hold a system and say VETO or the Cartel sweeps in and starts pirating your allies and other free-traders, you would take up arms against them, no? Because if you didnÆt, youÆd be allowing their actions to happen and the system could hardly be said to be ôNRDS.ö ItÆs the same thing. SF stands against every form of government. TheyÆve made it no secret that they are willing to take up arms against people who are loyal to their respective governments. By declaring them to be neutral, you allow them by default to continue to prey on those who are loyal to the State, the Federation, the Empire and the Republic.
On that subject...
First of all, in this hypothetical, it's going to depend on just what the two parties involved had as their operational goals and reasons for being present; a possible choice would be 'Let it happen, so that people can learn to defend themselves'. Then there are others... defend? Fortify? Educate? Bribery? Persue across the cluster on a tidalwave of blood? There's always a choice.
How can I-RED be 'Neutral' with SF whilst staying it's own course? Possibly by SF not doing various activities in I-RED's sphere of influence. It may get a little tricky to reconcile that situation if that changes, but setting them not-hostile does not mean being friendly with them, just as it doesn't mean they're going to go all out to destroy them. It's "We'l get on with our thing, you get on with your thing, until our ideals directly clash". If they aren't actively disrupting one another's agenda, why worry?
As for the situation I-RED finds themselves in... well, they state they wish to broker peace, and work with both sides. Often that just means you get shot from both sides by those that are rather happy for this war to continue, thankyouverymuch.
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Sinjin Mokk
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.05.23 13:41:00 -
[63]
Ms. Nausea,
We seem to be approaching the subjectÆs middle from two different directions.
IÆm familiar with Star fractionÆs rhetoric and ideology. I personally donÆt agree with it. I am a person who supports governmental rule. John used to be much the same. If he were to declare I-RED was in favor of Star FractionÆs ideology, I would be sad to hear it, but it could be accepted. If he said that anarchism was detrimental to the existence of the State (or Federation, or whoever heÆs supporting this week) I could also accept it. But to declare for one side while enabling the actions of the other defies logic.
At least it does, to the limited extent that heÆs explained it.
And yes. The fate of someone who tries to play both sides against the middle is that theyÆre usually shot by both.
New Tales of the Dark Amarr |
Nausea
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:01:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Sinjin Mokk
But to declare for one side while enabling the actions of the other defies logic.
At least it does, to the limited extent that heÆs explained it.
I wouldn't have it be too much of a leap of logic... "I disagree with you, but don't disagree strongly enough to want to burn everything you've ever done" would do it.
Mere dislike is not a good reason to cause wanton destruction.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:18:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/05/2011 14:24:48
Interesting is it not how quickly the supporters of hierarchy come to the shrill protestation ôif you are not with us ... you are against us!ö Almost as if the notion of neutrality itself is poisonous to imperialist ambition.
In the words of Sinjin Mokk we see an echo of the CVAÆs approach to Providence which insisted in active interference in the neutrality and affairs of others and forced through the practise of standings enclosurism the wide contamination of their institutional bias to those seeking nothing more than simple commercial interaction on the frontier in that region.
The error I believe you make Sinjin Mokk (and you are not alone in this by any means) is to believe there is only one path to NRDS ideology and that is the domination of space and enforcement of ideals creating in effect NRDS POLICED SYSTEMS (where anyone disagreeing is shot).
While we in the Fraction believe that NRDS ORGANIZATIONS are the key, and it is in the independent and unfettered diplomacy between sovereign individual entities that freedom can be found.
To your example where SF and other NRDS entities were coexisting in peace and mutually-beneficial commercial relations û if there was an invasion of NBSI hostiles, ravagers, psychotics and such, then the likely outcome would be that all NRDS-minded entities would end up being fired upon by said hostiles and would naturally end up on the same ôsideö by their own free choice rather than by the enforced obligation of standings enclosure. Pirates are pirates because they pirate people û the consequence of that is their would-be victims setting them red and responding in kind. And associations freely agreed and created through genuine mutual interest are longer lasting and far more powerful than those demanded by a tyrant.
Now you go on to say that SF stands against every form of government and paint us with the same bush you condemn piracy.
ItÆs a convenient fiction of course and while I would agree to an extent û we do oppose the grand majority of governmental systems and states, that doesnÆt mean we are obliged to use the same methods to oppose each and every example.
Some people and some entities can be negotiated with. Some can be influenced through trade and cultural exchange, some can convinced, some can be gently nudged, in fact I would go so far as to say the majority of the FractionÆs interactions in New Eden are peaceful and the fact that it is the violent examples that make IGS headlines says more about the interests of the galnet readers than our methods and ideology. Threads describing our business arrangements and sponsorships and planetary partnerships rarely get as much comment as our wars do. Such is life.
The Star Fraction is the cluster's oldest and most successful free-trading enterprise. We have been moving resources, products and trade goods through marginal markets for the last eight years without interruption. We have thousands of mutually-profitable business contacts and we are one of the clusterÆs most successful producers of high-tech spaceships for capsuleer purchase.
While I do understand your desire to paint us with the same broad shades of black you apply to pirates and brigands and bark out imprecations to others repeating the stern mantra ôif you are not with us you are AGAINST US!ö You do strain credibility in the characterization of the Fraction you are offering to the summit.
Indeed, the latest war we have found ourselves embroiled in was entirely the responsibility of an Ultra-Nationalist Gallente organization called Moira that attempted to restrict and limit free trade in Placid and had the temerity to order Free Captains to leave Pelille system in Placid.
This is a fine example of the Nationalist Government you laud and revere in your commentary û protectionist, closed-border xenophobic, anti trade and profoundly hostile to the notion of free commerce and open competition.
Join the Revolution!
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:20:00 -
[66]
In your closing comments that one must choose a side from the options : ôGovernment (any government)ö vs ôFreedomö you are simply making our arguments for us. We support self-determination and individual sovereignty, we support the freedom to choose oneÆs future and raise oneself by talent and vision and hard work to the ambitions of the mindÆs eye.
The Star Fraction idealism is not a new thing in New Eden.
We are the spirit of the Caldari pioneers who refused to submit to Gallente imperialism. We are the aspirations of the Matari who looked at the night sky and vowed to break their chains. We are the dignified resolution of the Intaki desiring self-determination and right to choose their future. We are the Amarrian heretic who interprets the scriptures differently to the theology council and sees his role as liberator of the spirit not prison guard of the body.
We are every free man and woman of the Star Cluster who has looked inside their own heart and decided to live on their feet rather than remain on knees and take a stand against malignant hierarchy and the twin corruptions of statist folly and imperialist convention.
We are the best friend of honest commerce. We are the most stalwart and reliable of allies, we are innovative partners, successful investors, far-sighted pioneers and we seek the brightest future for humanity across the distant stars.
But yes, stand opposed to our freedom and demand of us ôsubmit or dieö, dishonour our neutrality and force us to choose to subordinate our independence to hierarchy and you will see our other side.
A bullet in your head from a crowded street or sudden conflagration of incendiaries, or indeed the full consequences of interstellar warfare to oppose every regressive instinct of the road-blocker and statist brigand who believes free men must pay a tax to live at all.
Join the Revolution!
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Sinjin Mokk
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.05.23 15:46:00 -
[67]
Jade,
If you find yourself being pilloried in the court of public opinion, why don't you make as much of an effort to show what you've built as opposed to what you destroy?
As I said, I stand for the rule of law. So if all you presented to the galaxy were words and ideology, you would be merely a dissenter and a malcontent. And if you followed up your ideologies with peaceful action, then your message would probably garner respect. Some might even brand you a visionary.
Instead, you have chosen to engage in acts of violence to support your political views. That makes you a terrorist and a criminal and gives the governments of New Eden every right to hunt you down in the same way pirates and other criminals are pursued.
I would love to see the existence of a utopian NRDS area of null-sec. It would please me to no end to find an area of null-sec where people could travel freely without fear of being the prey of someone stronger. Sadly, we have people like Verone and groups like the Goons who donÆt care if NRDS areas are run by the iron fist of a tyrant or the philosophies of anarchism. TheyÆll still prey on the weak. The only thing that stops people like that is the imposition of laws and law-enforcement.
You say you support freedom and self-determination, yet you cannot accept that most people prefer to live in a society that is bound by law.
New Tales of the Dark Amarr |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.05.23 16:13:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 23/05/2011 16:12:56
Originally by: Sinjin Mokk If you find yourself being pilloried in the court of public opinion, why don't you make as much of an effort to show what you've built as opposed to what you destroy?
I don't really think we are "pilloried" in such courts. Its simply a reality of human nature that we prefer to debate war and destruction than commerce and creativity. IGS is a debating forum where various interests try to get their points and arguments across - since Nationalist interest is served by telling fibs about their enemies it is no surprise they prefer to engage in arguments that better reflect the bias.
Originally by: Sinjin Mokk As I said, I stand for the rule of law. So if all you presented to the galaxy were words and ideology, you would be merely a dissenter and a malcontent. And if you followed up your ideologies with peaceful action, then your message would probably garner respect. Some might even brand you a visionary. Instead, you have chosen to engage in acts of violence to support your political views. That makes you a terrorist and a criminal and gives the governments of New Eden every right to hunt you down in the same way pirates and other criminals are pursued.
I think you will find that "governments of new eden" are rather good at foisting criminality onto dissidents it is rather the point of controlling states through overwhelming executive power. Your problem is one of definition though Sinjin. If you grant that any government is something to be respected and obeyed one might ask if you are prepared to submit yourself to the rules and regulations of the Goonswarm Federation as eagerly as you bend your knee to the Amarrian court. And if not - surely that means that some governments (in your eyes) are worthy of respect and obedience while others are not? And if that is the case, how do you justify your own fealty to some and rebellion against others?
Quote: I would love to see the existence of a utopian NRDS area of null-sec. It would please me to no end to find an area of null-sec where people could travel freely without fear of being the prey of someone stronger. Sadly, we have people like Verone and groups like the Goons who donÆt care if NRDS areas are run by the iron fist of a tyrant or the philosophies of anarchism. TheyÆll still prey on the weak. The only thing that stops people like that is the imposition of laws and law-enforcement.
The danger (and oh so predictable fate is) that if your fear of monsters like Verone and Goons causes you to be become a monster yourself (which by imposing restrictive laws and foisting your diplomacy on others you are on the road to becoming) haven't your enemies actually won by forcing you to become just like them? The fall of the CVA was an ethical and existential fall as much as physical one. By the end they had become tyrants and given up their principles through fear of criminality and hostiles. And sadly this is a pattern that haunted all would be NRDS federations in New Eden's history.
Once you start saying "I will set your standings for you" you are starting down the road of tyranny and electing yourself hierarch and accepting the inevitable corruption such things entail.
I believe that enlightened associations of equals united in ad hoc military actions against universal foes, while perhaps less effecive in raw combat terms than pressed militias, do have a far greater resilience of the spirit in the long term.
Quote: You say you support freedom and self-determination, yet you cannot accept that most people prefer to live in a society that is bound by law.
I support the right for people to own personal firearms too Sinjin Mokk, but that doesn't mean I have to stand still and receive a bullet when one is fired at me. People make their choices and those choices have consequences.
Join the Revolution!
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Nausea
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.05.23 16:30:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I support the right for people to own personal firearms too Sinjin Mokk, but that doesn't mean I have to stand still and receive a bullet when one is fired at me. People make their choices and those choices have consequences.
I rather believe it is the most important freedom of all, that underpins...pretty much all of the rest: the freedom to take the consequences.
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Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.05.23 18:04:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 23/05/2011 18:05:04
Originally by: Sinjin Mokk
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Unless I missed some official declaration from king Khanid - thus why I asked the question - the Khanid Kingdom is not at war with the Republic.
Maybe king Khanid issued a declaration where he states that the Federation is an enemy ? I was only asking out of curiosity.
I find your sociopolitical ignorance disturbing.
The Kingdom of Khanid is a part of the Amarr Empire. The Empire is at war with the Federation and the Republic. As a part of the Empire, we too are at war with the Federation and the Republic. Does this chain of logic explain the situation to your satisfaction or shall I ask His Royal Majesty to write you a note?
An ally ? Yes. though to my knowledge they have only shown support to the Empire, and have not declared any war intentions, and are not at war at the Amarr Empire's side. Are you trying to lecture someone that is actually fighting in the Militia about its political realities ? Even the Mandate, which is a totally dependant protectorate and more than an ally, is not at war with the Republic and the Federation.
But yes please, ask His Royal Majesty to write me letter if it happens that the Khanid Kingdom is actually a part of the Amarr Empire and unofficially at war with the Minmatar Republic and Gallente Federation. |
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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.05.23 19:45:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Silas Vitalia on 23/05/2011 19:45:17
Originally by: Lyn Farel
But yes please, ask His Royal Majesty to write me letter if it happens that the Khanid Kingdom is actually a part of the Amarr Empire and unofficially at war with the Minmatar Republic and Gallente Federation.
Do you recognize the authority of the Privy Council Farel?
Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Open for Recruitment!
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Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.05.23 23:20:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 23/05/2011 23:20:43
Originally by: Silas Vitalia Edited by: Silas Vitalia on 23/05/2011 19:45:17
Originally by: Lyn Farel
But yes please, ask His Royal Majesty to write me letter if it happens that the Khanid Kingdom is actually a part of the Amarr Empire and unofficially at war with the Minmatar Republic and Gallente Federation.
Do you recognize the authority of the Privy Council Farel?
Their authority on what ?
What does this has to do with the current discussion ? |
Azelor Delaria
Caldari Infinite Entropy
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Posted - 2011.05.24 00:33:00 -
[73]
So let me get this straight. You decided to declare war against a well-respected corporation in the State Protectorate - the militia of the Caldari State, whom you claim to represent and fight on behalf of. In so doing, you have complained about other members of the State Protectorate defending their militia allies against those that are perceived as a threat to the power of the State.
Then, when it looks like Wolfsbrigade can stand against you, you not only hide from them intentionally, but you do so - wait for it, wait for it - in Federation high security space! Your cowardice is staggering, and your hypocrisy is not only amazing, but a true showing of just how much the State is failing. Not only are your actions seditious in nature, they are downright treason.
As a mercenary, I have fought on behalf of the State, Empire, and Federation. I'm not afraid to do so when the money is right. However, I am inclined to believe that pirates have far more honor than you fools. Go back to Jita and stay docked in 4-4. It is a joke, and one that isn't funny. ***** ***** ***** *****
"No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy." |
Valdezi
Amarr Intaki Security and Intelligence Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2011.05.24 02:30:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Azelor Delaria So let me get this straight. You decided to declare war against a well-respected corporation in the State Protectorate - the militia of the Caldari State, whom you claim to represent and fight on behalf of.
This shows ignorance of the policies of the Ishukone Corporation regarding the Provist movement. As the Caldari State is a collective of many corporations, they will often find themselves in competition. We do not support the Hethist State.
Originally by: Azelor Delaria In so doing, you have complained about other members of the State Protectorate defending their militia allies against those that are perceived as a threat to the power of the State.
This didn't happen.
Originally by: Azelor Delaria Then, when it looks like Wolfsbrigade can stand against you, you not only hide from them intentionally, but you do so - wait for it, wait for it - in Federation high security space! Your cowardice is staggering, and your hypocrisy is not only amazing, but a true showing of just how much the State is failing. Not only are your actions seditious in nature, they are downright treason.
This didn't happen. Look at your maps again. Make sure you know what you're talking about before you post again.
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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.05.24 02:43:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Lyn Farel Edited by: Lyn Farel on 23/05/2011 23:20:43
Originally by: Silas Vitalia Edited by: Silas Vitalia on 23/05/2011 19:45:17
Originally by: Lyn Farel
But yes please, ask His Royal Majesty to write me letter if it happens that the Khanid Kingdom is actually a part of the Amarr Empire and unofficially at war with the Minmatar Republic and Gallente Federation.
Do you recognize the authority of the Privy Council Farel?
Their authority on what ?
What does this has to do with the current discussion ?
The Privy Council oversees your crusade. Lord Councilor Khanid retains one of the highest posts on the Council.
Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Open for Recruitment!
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Diana Kim
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.05.24 07:38:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Valdezi
This shows ignorance of the policies of the Ishukone Corporation regarding the Provist movement. As the Caldari State is a collective of many corporations, they will often find themselves in competition. We do not support the Hethist State.
Well, there is a line between being liberal and traitor. Your alliance crossed it when started to attack and then declare wars on Caldari militia with support of Gallente militia. --- We live and die for the State |
Valdezi
Amarr Intaki Security and Intelligence Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2011.05.24 10:51:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Diana Kim
Well, there is a line between being liberal and traitor. Your alliance crossed it when started to attack and then declare wars on Caldari militia with support of Gallente militia.
Come now, Ms Kim, are you just spamming Ishukone-Raata threads now with your inane drivel? There's a fine line between liberal and traitor? I'm sure you wish that were true. I'm sure it makes things easier for you, ethically, to believe that, to repeat the same falsehoods day in and day out until they feel more true.
Unfortunately that will never make them true.
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Diana Kim
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.05.24 11:30:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Valdezi
Come now, Ms Kim, are you just spamming Ishukone-Raata threads now with your inane drivel? There's a fine line between liberal and traitor? I'm sure you wish that were true. I'm sure it makes things easier for you, ethically, to believe that, to repeat the same falsehoods day in and day out until they feel more true.
Unfortunately that will never make them true.
Inane drivel? Cmon, why starting to make personal attacks when you run out of arguments. It doesn't make you to be seen as a smarter or righter anyway. And what about being true or not, weren't you going to deny wars against Caldari militia corporations? So where is the truth? Is it in words of traitors, who speak a lot of sweet words trying to cover their crimes against the State?
You know, any number of words won't be enough to cover your deeds. Treason is not forgotten lightly.
Why am I 'spamming' (what, was it really hard to say 'replying'?). It is simple. You present your action from only one side. And when people read my replies, they can question your position, and ask themselves, who these people really are. Do they really represent Ishukone? Can they talk from the name of the State? And what have they done.
Of course, my words can be questioned too, but at least people can start to think and analyze, and won't accept your side only by just reading and believing it.
With charged lasers, D.Kim, Colonel --- We live and die for the State |
Valdezi
Amarr Intaki Security and Intelligence Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2011.05.24 11:58:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Diana Kim
Inane drivel? Cmon, why starting to make personal attacks when you run out of arguments.
Madam,
To call someone's argument 'inane drivel' is far from a personal attack, unless you consider your argument to be part of your person.
Originally by: Diana Kim It doesn't make you to be seen as a smarter or righter anyway.
For that, Ms Kim, I don't think I need say anything.
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Sinjin Mokk
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.05.24 12:21:00 -
[80]
Personal attacks aside, I think I see where Ms. Kim is coming from.
A liberal disagrees with certain aspects of his culture, heritage, government and works within the law to try and change the way things are done along a progressive line.
A traitor leaves his home to support a government that is completely at odds with his previous home. Once there he may even support a military or intel-based organization.
Does that sound about right to you Mr. Valdezi?
New Tales of the Dark Amarr |
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Diana Kim
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.05.24 13:13:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Valdezi
Madam,
To call someone's argument 'inane drivel' is far from a personal attack, unless you consider your argument to be part of your person.
Monsieur (I think that is how you call yourselves in Gallente Federation),
I am not going to give any lessons about proper etiquette, but I'd like to point you on differences of how you call things. For example, I can call your answer just offtopic, or childish blubbering. I can refer to it just as provoking, or as trolling. Now understand?
If you do, than try to answer with real arguments. If I got you right and you are out of them, just surrender. Accept your actions were wrong and ditch your corrupted alliance. Make your apologies to those who protect the State. And if you will be sincere, I'd recommend you to enlist yourself to Caldari militia and expiate your crimes with blood of your former friends from Q-CATS. --- We live and die for the State |
John Revenent
Caldari Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2011.05.24 13:18:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Diana Kim
If you do, than try to answer with real arguments. If I got you right and you are out of them, just surrender. Accept your actions were wrong and ditch your corrupted alliance. Make your apologies to those who protect the State. And if you will be sincere, I'd recommend you to enlist yourself to Caldari militia and expiate your crimes with blood of your former friends from Q-CATS.
Did they teach you that in the Protectorate, it is interesting how Heth employ's his recruitment techniques. "Surrender, Join us, Betray your ideals!"
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Diana Kim
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.05.24 13:35:00 -
[83]
Originally by: John Revenent
Did they teach you that in the Protectorate, it is interesting how Heth employ's his recruitment techniques. "Surrender, Join us, Betray your ideals!"
Meh, what ideals? Ideals of working against your State? Ideals of teaming with common enemy? Ideals of licking gallente's (I won't finish this part, or CONCORD will do something bad to me) Ideals of defaming Ishukone's name?
Well, if you are talking about gallente ideals, why don't you just join them and stop all this hypocrisy (yup, and this way it would be easy to me to shoot you without repaying to CONCORD for violating the law). |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.05.24 14:00:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Diana Kim
Originally by: John Revenent
Did they teach you that in the Protectorate, it is interesting how Heth employ's his recruitment techniques. "Surrender, Join us, Betray your ideals!"
Meh, what ideals? Ideals of working against your State? Ideals of teaming with common enemy? Ideals of licking gallente's (I won't finish this part, or CONCORD will do something bad to me) Ideals of defaming Ishukone's name?
Well, if you are talking about gallente ideals, why don't you just join them and stop all this hypocrisy (yup, and this way it would be easy to me to shoot you without repaying to CONCORD for violating the law).
You know that if you swapped around the words "state and federation" and the names "caldari and gallente" in your post you would sound exactly the same as Julianus Soter and the Ultra Nationalist/Fascist wing of the Federal militia.
You extreme nationalists have more in common with the extreme nationalists of other empires than you do with the progressive elements and free spirits in your own cultures.
Which is ironic because it means the proxy war being fought in Placid/Black Rise and neighbouring territories is pretty much an irrelevant joust in comparison to the secret war of imperialism and tyranny being fought within the corridors of your own society.
Ultimately you stand hand in hand with the extremists of the Federation Diana Kim - they are your people, not free-traders, commercial businessmen, independent technologists and liberal thinkers.
And I will go further in your case.
You are not Caldari Diana Kim. You are some hybrid offshoot of Amarrian imperialism transplanted by way of Gallente Fascism into the jackboots of Heth's idiot autocracy - a crossbred creature of tyranny trained only in the knee-jerk spouting of platitudes and meaningless catechism.
And it is you who is a traitor to the Caldari culture and mindset. You who have betrayed the motives and struggles of the founders, you who have surrendered your honour to the lies of a manipulating monster feeding you in turn with a diet of fear and ignorance watching the progress of your pointless eternal war with your mirror image opposites in the Federation.
If you have an ideal ms Kim it is ignorance. And that is the tragedy of your existence.
Join the Revolution!
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Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2011.05.24 14:21:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Diana Kim expiate your crimes with blood of your former friends from Q-CATS.
By his own words he descripes FDU elements residing in Heydieles as "meatshields" (see ANN article) so probably not friends as such but opportunistic acquitance. Not sure how well their plan to move to Fliet will function since even I would foresee that FDU is loathe to shoot their former comrades.
But I digress. All in all it seems I-Red has bitten more than they can chew this time and everything which follows as result is quite a sad spectacle to witness. I think I even warned I-Red about going to war when they approached me in hopes of getting information about WB.
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Diana Kim
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.05.24 15:08:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Diana Kim
Originally by: John Revenent
Did they teach you that in the Protectorate, it is interesting how Heth employ's his recruitment techniques. "Surrender, Join us, Betray your ideals!"
Meh, what ideals? Ideals of working against your State? Ideals of teaming with common enemy? Ideals of licking gallente's (I won't finish this part, or CONCORD will do something bad to me) Ideals of defaming Ishukone's name?
Well, if you are talking about gallente ideals, why don't you just join them and stop all this hypocrisy (yup, and this way it would be easy to me to shoot you without repaying to CONCORD for violating the law).
You know that if you swapped around the words "state and federation" and the names "caldari and gallente" in your post you would sound exactly the same as Julianus Soter and the Ultra Nationalist/Fascist wing of the Federal militia.
You extreme nationalists have more in common with the extreme nationalists of other empires than you do with the progressive elements and free spirits in your own cultures.
Which is ironic because it means the proxy war being fought in Placid/Black Rise and neighbouring territories is pretty much an irrelevant joust in comparison to the secret war of imperialism and tyranny being fought within the corridors of your own society.
Ultimately you stand hand in hand with the extremists of the Federation Diana Kim - they are your people, not free-traders, commercial businessmen, independent technologists and liberal thinkers.
And I will go further in your case.
You are not Caldari Diana Kim. You are some hybrid offshoot of Amarrian imperialism transplanted by way of Gallente Fascism into the jackboots of Heth's idiot autocracy - a crossbred creature of tyranny trained only in the knee-jerk spouting of platitudes and meaningless catechism.
And it is you who is a traitor to the Caldari culture and mindset. You who have betrayed the motives and struggles of the founders, you who have surrendered your honour to the lies of a manipulating monster feeding you in turn with a diet of fear and ignorance watching the progress of your pointless eternal war with your mirror image opposites in the Federation.
If you have an ideal ms Kim it is ignorance. And that is the tragedy of your existence.
Oh. My. God. Now another Gallente calls me 'ignorant'. R-right. Without even knowing me makes assumptions about my existence. Well, how gallentish at all. And what do YOU know about Caldari culture and mindset? What gives YOU right to decide who is Caldari and who is not? We told your people to stay away from us two hundred years ago, and we will say it again.
What else, want to point at my words, that they were applicable to gallente patriots? Indeed. They well be applicable even to gallente, and to noble amarr, and even to these barbaric minmatar. It doesnt matter who will say it, it's a matter of holding your allegiance or being bastard.
And where the <censored> you see a word about NATIONALISM?! I don't see a word about any nation in my reply (leaving out this reply, where I addressed you as being another Gallente who tries to get into Caldari affairs), was it caused by a hallucination of some sort or what? And the 'secret war of imperialism and tyranny' made me laugh. Thanks. Don't you wear an isogen-foil hat to protect yourself from mind-eating aliens who lived in this cluster before us, do you?
Well, if you are really interested in a Caldari way, you still can be taught. Maybe 10 or 20 years living with Caldari will fix your mindset. However, with attitude like yours, you will be shot on landing. --- We live and die for the State |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.05.24 15:18:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Diana Kim And what do YOU know about Caldari culture and mindset?
Evidently I have forgotten more than you will ever know.
Join the Revolution!
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Diana Kim
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.05.24 15:25:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Diana Kim And what do YOU know about Caldari culture and mindset?
Evidently I have forgotten more than you will ever know.
Your personal attacks won't add any value to your words. I can say just one thing: you are absolutely wrong. --- We live and die for the State |
Diana Kim
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.05.24 15:36:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Damar Rocarion
Originally by: Diana Kim expiate your crimes with blood of your former friends from Q-CATS.
By his own words he descripes FDU elements residing in Heydieles as "meatshields" (see ANN article) so probably not friends as such but opportunistic acquitance. Not sure how well their plan to move to Fliet will function since even I would foresee that FDU is loathe to shoot their former comrades.
Yeah, it was tempting to read. As excuse for not doing it I might say I'd rely more on facts than words. Well, if all this is true, it will make them double traitors, for both sides of the conflict. There would be some fun moments when they undock in front of heyd guys after all
Originally by: Damar Rocarion But I digress. All in all it seems I-Red has bitten more than they can chew this time and everything which follows as result is quite a sad spectacle to witness. I think I even warned I-Red about going to war when they approached me in hopes of getting information about WB.
It was their decision. And they got their consequences. --- We live and die for the State |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.05.24 15:44:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Diana Kim Your personal attacks won't add any value to your words. I can say just one thing: you are absolutely wrong.
I suspect your rather limp-wristed retreat to complaint over rhetorical hurly-burly won't add much value to your words either. The issue is Diana Kim, you are one of Heth's bright-eyed patriotic thugs incapable of understanding the history of the Caldari culture in this star cluster. Were this not the case you would find greater shame in your proximity to opposite numbers in the Gallente ultra-nationalist movement. As it is you find unity in blind autocratic submission across cultural divides and consider your greatest foes are those who simply wish to speak freely and experience the potential wealth and wonder of New Eden.
Join the Revolution!
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