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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
1514
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Posted - 2012.09.07 01:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Hi Petrus,
I'm sorry if you've ever had the impression that a thread has been moved because "ISD don't like it". Please feel free to use the report button or send a petition in if you think this is the case, but I hope you can trust me when I say, we do not practice that as policy and would view the any moderator who did so, very dimly.
General discussion is, generally as it would seem, here for discussing EVE things that can't simply be qualified by one of the child forums.
We know there is some perception that certain child forums are graveyards, but surely by the actions of us moving appropriate content to the right place, activity will be directed where it needs to be ?
Hope this helps you understand the ISD perspective. I know the ISD works hard to keep the forums going and keep them being great places to talk. The "threads you don't like" part was intended more towards report-zealous forumgoers than towards ISD and CCP.
The problem with directing forum activity to the child forum it belongs is that not all threads are intended for the child forum -- something that may not be readily apparent. For a poor comparison, it's the difference between an article appearing in National Geographic versus the European Journal of Wildlife Research. Snipping one from the former and putting it in the latter only gives it to the wrong audience, where it doesn't effectively give its message out.
Maybe I'm just whining and soapboxing, but hey... it's General Discussion! Rifterlings - Small gang low/nullsec combat corp specializing in fast paced combat in frigates and cruisers. US and EU Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free frigates and fittings for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
1514
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 01:30:00 -
[32] - Quote
Helena Russell Makanen wrote:Dear James 315 alt - sorry your thread was moved to the sub-forum designed for CSM discussion. No brainer there sparky. I am not a James 315 alt and never even forum post on my own alts. Rifterlings - Small gang low/nullsec combat corp specializing in fast paced combat in frigates and cruisers. US and EU Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free frigates and fittings for members! |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4527
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 02:37:00 -
[33] - Quote
GD is generally for discussing things I'd say please leave |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
771
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 02:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
Paul Oliver wrote:Hardly, Jita Park Speaker's Corner is a very active section devoted to topics concerning the CSM, any topic concerning the CSM obviously belongs there. Topics concerning the CSM are not general in nature but in fact quite specific, and should be kept to the area intended for them.
"A place for everything and everything in it's place." - Benjamin Franklin I see, you like most people, don't go their very often except during the elections.
GÇ£There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches.GÇ¥ GÇò Ray Bradbury Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
771
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Posted - 2012.09.07 02:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
Andski wrote:GD is generally for discussing things I'd say With so many child forums their would be nothing left except people talking about the weather Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
14
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Posted - 2012.09.07 02:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: No I think you missed the point that a lot of the sub forums you are moving threads too, have so few people visiting them you could count them on one hand. The fact that most threads stay in GD even though they can be fitted into a child forum is the also a problem. Some threads are moved while others are not or the worst part being when a thread remains in GD for 30+ pages and then is moved.
As has been shown over the last 12 months or more moving threads does not cause people to look in the massive number of child forums, it just causes the thread to die.
Edit: and on the subject of "Features and Ideas" as you brought it up, could you explain the difference between "Features and Ides" and the "Assembly Hall" as they are both for new or improving features and ideas.
Thank you for your feedback!
You mention a number of issues here, but I can't and won't enter into a debate; CCP have stated the rules and therefore we will implement those rules.
it's not up to CCL to decide which forum rules we can and can't enforce and so we will move the threads that need moving, as soon as we can.
Sadly, as soon as we can is limited by our numbers and time-zone coverage; if you'd like to help out, we are recruiting and very anxious to hear from people. if you can't commit to that, then please use the Report button when you see something off, and someone in CCL will investigate as soon as is possible.
My personal opinion is however thus: Making these forums a better place is something that concerns every member of CCL and every player in EVE. The only way we can to do that is by having an agreed set of guidelines; and following them.
To answer your edit, the Assembly hall is used to suggest ideas to the CSM, the Features and Ideas forum is used to present ideas directly to CCP.
ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2087
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Posted - 2012.09.07 02:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
"Some people think I am gay, which I think is awesome." ~Daniel Radcliffe
I can do this too
"A genius throws a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that he's going to die choking in a maze of smoke and flame. A hero drinks a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that if he does a split in midair, he can hit twice as many zombies per kick. Drunk hero wins again, wusses." ~Cracked.com |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
771
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 02:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Frying Doom wrote: No I think you missed the point that a lot of the sub forums you are moving threads too, have so few people visiting them you could count them on one hand. The fact that most threads stay in GD even though they can be fitted into a child forum is the also a problem. Some threads are moved while others are not or the worst part being when a thread remains in GD for 30+ pages and then is moved.
As has been shown over the last 12 months or more moving threads does not cause people to look in the massive number of child forums, it just causes the thread to die.
Edit: and on the subject of "Features and Ideas" as you brought it up, could you explain the difference between "Features and Ides" and the "Assembly Hall" as they are both for new or improving features and ideas.
Thank you for your feedback! You mention a number of issues here, but I can't and won't enter into a debate; CCP have stated the rules and therefore we will implement those rules. it's not up to CCL to decide which forum rules we can and can't enforce and so we will move the threads that need moving, as soon as we can. Sadly, as soon as we can is limited by our numbers and time-zone coverage; if you'd like to help out, we are recruiting and very anxious to hear from people. if you can't commit to that, then please use the Report button when you see something off, and someone in CCL will investigate as soon as is possible. My personal opinion is however thus: Making these forums a better place is something that concerns every member of CCL and every player in EVE. The only way we can to do that is by having an agreed set of guidelines; and following them. To answer your edit, the Assembly hall is used to suggest ideas to the CSM, the Features and Ideas forum is used to present ideas directly to CCP. My apologies, I applied and they decline me on the basis that I was a power hungry, insane, nut job..
but seriously the biggest problem is with so many child forums a lot of the remaining threads should really be moved as well, take a"Barge fairy tale" with the OP
Herr Wilkus wrote:***DISCLAIMER: This OP was originally longer, more entertaining, and actually made sense. Here is the link to the original on eve-search.Eve Search: its where you go if you want to see the full context of a thread before its mangled beyond recognition. Cargo Hulk, Yield Hulk, Tank Hulk, those were the choices - all with drawbacks. Cargo - for a Hybrid Exhumer/Hauler, with a risky AFK 'cruise control' option. Yield - to maximize returns with friends providing transport. Tank - 30-40K EHP to discourage/thwart gankers. (and really, one could still put up a reasonable tank on either Cargo or Yield fit Hulks, if they used the mid-slots.... ) But choices are dangerous things. Given the choice, miners will take cargo/yield every time - and then they are ganked. The rare, clever miner who tanked his Hulk; well, he weathered the storm - and reaped the benefits as mineral prices rose. But throw that out the window, just give the whining miners all three. So, good game, CCP. Good to know we are still steaming, full speed ahead! - towards Hello-Kitty highsec, a paradise for stupid gameplay. Edit: Trolling removed, CCP Phantom
Is that not an idea, so should it not go in features and ideas?
If you move some you should move all that fit into child forums. I don't agree with it but if you follow the rule for some you must for all. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
720
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 02:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
^ Its been a hot day today in GD hasn't it. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2088
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 02:59:00 -
[40] - Quote
rodyas wrote: ^ Its been a hot day today in GD hasn't it.
I dunno, in OOP today I said the one thing (for today) that's going to send me to hell
Then it's just a matter of knocking off the devil and taking his place "A genius throws a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that he's going to die choking in a maze of smoke and flame. A hero drinks a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that if he does a split in midair, he can hit twice as many zombies per kick. Drunk hero wins again, wusses." ~Cracked.com |
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
772
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Posted - 2012.09.07 03:07:00 -
[41] - Quote
rodyas wrote: ^ Its been a hot day today in GD hasn't it. Nah just very windy... Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 03:15:00 -
[42] - Quote
GD is for brainless doomsay, "nerf this" nonsense, and fellatio threads for posters, devs, and maybe even the awful mods if anyone is actually brainless enough to do that. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
722
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 03:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:rodyas wrote: ^ Its been a hot day today in GD hasn't it. I dunno, in OOP today I said the one thing (for today) that's going to send me to hell Then it's just a matter of knocking off the devil and taking his place
That isn't very weather driven, and only serves to derail this thread.
It was a hot wind blowing though. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Paul Oliver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
951
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Posted - 2012.09.07 03:19:00 -
[44] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Paul Oliver wrote:Hardly, Jita Park Speaker's Corner is a very active section devoted to topics concerning the CSM, any topic concerning the CSM obviously belongs there. Topics concerning the CSM are not general in nature but in fact quite specific, and should be kept to the area intended for them.
"A place for everything and everything in it's place." - Benjamin Franklin I see, you like most people, don't go their very often except during the elections. That is correct, mainly because I still fail to see a legitimate point for the current existance of a CSM in the first place.
After researching and listening to people tell me about it's establishment as a PR maneuver following the 2007 scandal involving a CCP developer giving the alliance, Band of Brothers, valuable blueprints, and it's use again as a public relations tool to placate the masses after the failed introduction of Incarna content, and finally after listening to and reading information from the CSM itself, I believe that the Council of Stellar Management is little more than an extension of CCP's public relations department and that the so called "democratic" process that elects individuals to it is merely a popularity contest carried out by members of large nullsec alliances who ensure their "candidates" are elected through the use of thousands of alternate character votes.
Having reached this conclusion, Frying Doom, I have no interest in the CSM or it's elections, so naturally I and many others would have no reason to visit the Jita Park Speaker's corner. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must undergo the fatigues of supporting it." - Thomas Paine |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
772
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 03:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:GD is for brainless doomsay, "nerf this" nonsense, and fellatio threads for posters, devs, and maybe even the awful mods if anyone is actually brainless enough to do that. ^Said while posting in GD
How Ironic Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 03:41:00 -
[46] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Proletariat Tingtango wrote:GD is for brainless doomsay, "nerf this" nonsense, and fellatio threads for posters, devs, and maybe even the awful mods if anyone is actually brainless enough to do that. ^Said while posting in GD How Ironic
I don't think you know what irony is! |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
775
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 03:53:00 -
[47] - Quote
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Proletariat Tingtango wrote:GD is for brainless doomsay, "nerf this" nonsense, and fellatio threads for posters, devs, and maybe even the awful mods if anyone is actually brainless enough to do that. ^Said while posting in GD How Ironic I don't think you know what irony is!
Wikipedia wrote:Irony (from the Ancient Greek +¦ß+¦-ü-ë+++¦+»+¦ eir+ìne+¡a, meaning dissimulation or feigned ignorance)[1] is a rhetorical device, literary technique, or situation in which there is a sharp incongruity or discordance that goes beyond the simple and evident intention of words or actions. There is presently no accepted method for textually indicating irony, though an irony (punctuation) mark has been proposed. In the 1580s, Henry Denham introduced a rhetorical question mark or percontation point which looks like a reversed question mark. This mark was also proposed by the French poet Marcel Bernhardt at the end of the 19th century to indicate irony or sarcasm.
Ironic statements (verbal irony)[2] are statements that imply a meaning in opposition to their literal meaning. A situation is often said to be ironic (situational irony) if there is an "incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result."[3] The discordance of verbal irony may be deliberately created as a means of communication (as in art or rhetoric). Descriptions or depictions of situational irony, whether in fiction or in non-fiction, serves the communicative function of sharpening or highlighting certain discordant features of reality. Verbal and situational irony are often used for emphasis in the assertion of a truth. The ironic form of simile, used in sarcasm, and some forms of litotes emphasize one's meaning by the deliberate use of language which states the opposite of the truth GÇö or drastically and obviously understates a factual connection.
In dramatic irony, the author causes a character to speak or act erroneously, out of ignorance of some portion of the truth of which the audience is aware. In other words, the audience knows the character is making a mistake, even as the character is making it. This technique highlights the importance of a particular truth by portraying a person who is strikingly unaware of it. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
If you need pictures to go with that look at the source it has a lovely stop sign with the words No Parking within 30 feet.
So yes it is ironic to say "GD is for brainless doomsay, "nerf this" nonsense, and fellatio threads for posters, devs, and maybe even the awful mods if anyone is actually brainless enough to do that." while saying it with GD is ironic. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Abel Merkabah
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
143
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 05:00:00 -
[48] - Quote
We've now had some CSM discussion. Someone suggested a solution to the many sub forums. Looks like it is time for this thread to be moved. James315 for CSM 8! |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
778
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 05:03:00 -
[49] - Quote
Paul Oliver wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Paul Oliver wrote:Hardly, Jita Park Speaker's Corner is a very active section devoted to topics concerning the CSM, any topic concerning the CSM obviously belongs there. Topics concerning the CSM are not general in nature but in fact quite specific, and should be kept to the area intended for them.
"A place for everything and everything in it's place." - Benjamin Franklin I see, you like most people, don't go their very often except during the elections. That is correct, mainly because I still fail to see a legitimate point for the current existance of a CSM in the first place. After researching and listening to people tell me about it's establishment as a PR maneuver following the 2007 scandal involving a CCP developer giving the alliance, Band of Brothers, valuable blueprints, and it's use again as a public relations tool to placate the masses after the failed introduction of Incarna content, and finally after listening to and reading information from the CSM itself, I believe that the Council of Stellar Management is little more than an extension of CCP's public relations department and that the so called "democratic" process that elects individuals to it is merely a popularity contest carried out by members of large nullsec alliances who ensure their "candidates" are elected through the use of thousands of alternate character votes. Having reached this conclusion, I have no interest in the CSM or it's elections, so naturally I and many others would have no reason to visit the Jita Park Speaker's corner. So what you are saying is that you live in the past and are failing to adapt to the present. Our entire planet is based off the creation of something for a purpose and it being used for other things as time goes on.
Yes the CSM was created for PR but that is no longer completely what it does. I will not say it does not function in some part as a PR tool as last year demonstrated when they took the CSM chairman to Iceland for an Emergency Summit.
But PR is no longer its primary function, it is a source of feedback to CCP and a source of ideas so we can all have a better game tomorrow. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Abel Merkabah
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
143
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Posted - 2012.09.07 05:06:00 -
[50] - Quote
Paul Oliver wrote:Abel Merkabah wrote:In the thread in question, I think it is because certain players started reporting the thread knowing it would be sent to the graveyard; and we all know the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Hardly, Jita Park Speaker's Corner is a very active section devoted to topics concerning the CSM, any topic concerning the CSM obviously belongs there. Topics concerning the CSM are not general in nature but in fact quite specific, and should be kept to the area intended for them. "A place for everything and everything in it's place." - Benjamin Franklin
Very active my ass.
In a matter of hours (perhaps a day) Petreus' thread climbed to 10+ pages in GD. Since the move to Jita Park, it has had what 1/2 a page of posts and has not had activity for 9 hours. James315 for CSM 8! |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1302
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 05:12:00 -
[51] - Quote
Abel Merkabah wrote:We've now had some CSM discussion. Someone suggested a solution to the many sub forums. Looks like it is time for this thread to be moved. Off to Jita Park then. See you guys later. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Paul Oliver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
960
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Posted - 2012.09.07 05:13:00 -
[52] - Quote
Abel Merkabah wrote:Paul Oliver wrote:Abel Merkabah wrote:In the thread in question, I think it is because certain players started reporting the thread knowing it would be sent to the graveyard; and we all know the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Hardly, Jita Park Speaker's Corner is a very active section devoted to topics concerning the CSM, any topic concerning the CSM obviously belongs there. Topics concerning the CSM are not general in nature but in fact quite specific, and should be kept to the area intended for them. "A place for everything and everything in it's place." - Benjamin Franklin My ass is very active. In a matter of hours (perhaps a day) Petreus' thread climbed to 10+ pages in GD. Since the move to Jita Park, it has had what 1/2 a page of posts and has not had activity for 9 hours. Yea I imagine they get a fair share of csm related troll topics over there so that doesn't really surprise me. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must undergo the fatigues of supporting it." - Thomas Paine |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
100
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Posted - 2012.09.07 05:37:00 -
[53] - Quote
Abel Merkabah wrote:Very active my ass.
In a matter of hours (perhaps a day) Petreus' thread climbed to 10+ pages in GD. Since the move to Jita Park, it has had what 1/2 a page of posts and has not had activity for 9 hours.
A question that comes to mind then, why would this capsuleer's candidacy belong in General Discussion while others are in the correct forum, Jita Park Speakers Corner? |
Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 05:41:00 -
[54] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Proletariat Tingtango wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Proletariat Tingtango wrote:GD is for brainless doomsay, "nerf this" nonsense, and fellatio threads for posters, devs, and maybe even the awful mods if anyone is actually brainless enough to do that. ^Said while posting in GD How Ironic I don't think you know what irony is! Wikipedia wrote:Irony (from the Ancient Greek +¦ß+¦-ü-ë+++¦+»+¦ eir+ìne+¡a, meaning dissimulation or feigned ignorance)[1] is a rhetorical device, literary technique, or situation in which there is a sharp incongruity or discordance that goes beyond the simple and evident intention of words or actions. There is presently no accepted method for textually indicating irony, though an irony (punctuation) mark has been proposed. In the 1580s, Henry Denham introduced a rhetorical question mark or percontation point which looks like a reversed question mark. This mark was also proposed by the French poet Marcel Bernhardt at the end of the 19th century to indicate irony or sarcasm.
Ironic statements (verbal irony)[2] are statements that imply a meaning in opposition to their literal meaning. A situation is often said to be ironic (situational irony) if there is an "incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result."[3] The discordance of verbal irony may be deliberately created as a means of communication (as in art or rhetoric). Descriptions or depictions of situational irony, whether in fiction or in non-fiction, serves the communicative function of sharpening or highlighting certain discordant features of reality. Verbal and situational irony are often used for emphasis in the assertion of a truth. The ironic form of simile, used in sarcasm, and some forms of litotes emphasize one's meaning by the deliberate use of language which states the opposite of the truth GÇö or drastically and obviously understates a factual connection.
In dramatic irony, the author causes a character to speak or act erroneously, out of ignorance of some portion of the truth of which the audience is aware. In other words, the audience knows the character is making a mistake, even as the character is making it. This technique highlights the importance of a particular truth by portraying a person who is strikingly unaware of it. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IronyIf you need pictures to go with that look at the source it has a lovely stop sign with the words No Parking within 30 feet. So yes it is ironic to say "GD is for brainless doomsay, "nerf this" nonsense, and fellatio threads for posters, devs, and maybe even the awful mods if anyone is actually brainless enough to do that." while saying it with GD is ironic.
I'm not reading that wall of text but RE: your last paragraph, Nope, idiot~ |
Abel Merkabah
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
143
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 05:41:00 -
[55] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Abel Merkabah wrote:Very active my ass.
In a matter of hours (perhaps a day) Petreus' thread climbed to 10+ pages in GD. Since the move to Jita Park, it has had what 1/2 a page of posts and has not had activity for 9 hours. A question that comes to mind then, why would this capsuleer's candidacy belong in General Discussion while others are in the correct forum, Jita Park Speakers Corner?
Not really what we are talking about.
The correct question should be, why do we need Jita corner, or any of the other sub forums? Or at least why do we need so many sub forums?
The follow up to these questions is why are some threads moved and not others?
These two questions lead to the question "What is GD's point?".
If you will read the thread, you can see that is what we are discussing...not how amazing James315 would be as a CSM member. James315 for CSM 8! |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
785
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Posted - 2012.09.07 05:44:00 -
[56] - Quote
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
I'm not reading that wall of text but RE: your last paragraph, Nope, idiot~
I think your inability to read explains your inability to understand.
Maybe you should stop posting before everyone see's the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope Gallente Federation
545
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Posted - 2012.09.07 07:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
Eve has other forums apart form GD? You want fries with that? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
791
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Posted - 2012.09.07 07:19:00 -
[58] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Eve has other forums apart form GD? Yes some of them so good they did them twice, like F&I and Assembly Hall Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Abel Merkabah
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
143
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 07:32:00 -
[59] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Eve has other forums apart form GD? Yes some of them so good they did them twice, like F&I and Assembly Hall
Now now...
One is for Devs to ignore, one is for CSM to ignore...obviously that required 2 different sub forums... James315 for CSM 8! |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
791
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Posted - 2012.09.07 07:35:00 -
[60] - Quote
Abel Merkabah wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Eve has other forums apart form GD? Yes some of them so good they did them twice, like F&I and Assembly Hall Now now... One is for Devs to ignore, one is for CSM to ignore...obviously that required 2 different sub forums... F&I should be scrapped, it is just an archaic relic, as why have a CSM and then have an ideas forum designed to bypass the CSM.
Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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