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Kiandoshia
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Posted - 2011.05.29 09:54:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Nova Fox Actually its relevant to the primary subject of the 'transferal of soul' technically the cloning process in eve means your old self dies and your concinous does not transfer to the new body but instead thats an entirely new life with your memories. This is a similar argument made with teleporters where your body is completely destroyed and then put back together thus you die there as well and the thing on the other side? is it you?
I have been wondering that myself lately. I think the whole transferring of the mind/consciousness is a little far fetched (or a little further fetched than the whole cloning idea in general).
I think that when a capsuleer dies or uses a jump clone or anything really, they really do die (the person who just clone jumped/died/had a brain scan performed on him/her is physically dead because the brain is damaged and there is no way to remove the consciousness from one's brain).
However, the clone, that now receives the data from the brain scan only has its brain altered in such a way that he has the exact same memories of the person who just died, with all the same life experiences and everything, so they are a different person but the same entity.
I recently watched the movie 'The 6th Day' and there are two characters in that movie, who die more than once during the whole plot but they are always reborn as clones, who have the memories of the person they were created of, so they remember how they died, what they were doing and what they have to do all the time.
I imagine us to 'work' in the same way and on a sidenote, that movie seems to have a lot in common with how cloning is supposed to work in Eve, with the exception that the brain scan, as shown in the movie does not kill people.
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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
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Posted - 2011.05.29 10:22:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kiandoshia I think that when a capsuleer dies or uses a jump clone or anything really, they really do die
Then you really do die every second. But you don't, consciousness is not a thing, it is a process. Therefore, where that process happens isn't important; that people think consciousness is an object is a culturally bound perception. On the other hand has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? ________________________________________________
Huh? |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.05.29 19:13:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium
Originally by: Kiandoshia I think that when a capsuleer dies or uses a jump clone or anything really, they really do die
Then you really do die every second. But you don't, consciousness is not a thing, it is a process. Therefore, where that process happens isn't important; that people think consciousness is an object is a culturally bound perception.
Unfourtunantely awareness doest seem to spread from one person to another thing, even if you replicated it down to the exact details, the old awareness is gond entirely, we have yet managed to cause one person to control two living bodies, but there is the unknown frontier of cyber space where one could possibly 'upload' themselves though this option is being researched we already stamped out that 'cloning' does not transfer awareness. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 3APR11
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.05.29 19:27:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Raid''En on 29/05/2011 19:29:09
this theory don't works with jump clone, as the old clone is not destroyed. i do'nt even talk about w-space ; we can travel though it except using wh, so how can the memory be transfered in that case ? xD
but well anyway i always though it was silly on eve to have multiples body but only 1 memory ; if they can transfer memory, why not copying it ? so we could use all our clones at the same time, each with it's own memory, but all from the same memory when activated. they will be different individuals, sharing the same old memory, but now creating each one it's own life from this point.
it's obvious it can't happen due to gameplay issues, but seems way more logical from a lore point of view...
if they scan memory, and put them on new clone, it means they are able to save these memory somewhere. if you can save something, you can copy/paste it somewhere else and make doubles.
or is there some law which force scientists to put a limitors on capsulers, and so don't allow that to happen ?
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Nishachara
Special Operations Corp Mortal Destruction
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Posted - 2011.05.29 20:28:00 -
[35]
When a person gets a hearth transplantation... doctors need to stop his/hers hearth for a certain amount of time to put in a new one...
So tehnically that person also dies for some time...
Probably similar with cloning just at more extreme levels...
And as for the soul... ...well the brain is scanned and all the information copied at the new body...so the soul when old "mirror" is unavailable just downloads into the next available that matches its criteria (the new body).
Thats my opinion how the teleportation/cloning could work...
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Kyle Valentine
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Posted - 2011.05.29 20:38:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Kyle Valentine on 29/05/2011 20:43:12 We are only informations in a meat-bag. Cut/paste the informations, kill the meat-bag. That's all. Let the soul with Santa claus, we are in the future in EVE.
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Skydell
Caldari Morrigna Order
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Posted - 2011.05.29 20:43:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Skydell on 29/05/2011 20:43:43 My question is, if they can replicate human bodies why the hell is ship technology so ancient? |
Astroka
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Posted - 2011.05.29 20:47:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Skydell Edited by: Skydell on 29/05/2011 20:43:43 My question is, if they can replicate human bodies why the hell is ship technology so ancient?
What?
Originally by: Ioci Welcome to the bustedness of EVE.
1 guy can disband a 2000 man alliance and wipe out trillions, that's cool. Give back a noob 10 mill? No, that's game breaking.
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Skydell
Caldari Morrigna Order
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Posted - 2011.05.29 20:57:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Astroka
Originally by: Skydell Edited by: Skydell on 29/05/2011 20:43:43 My question is, if they can replicate human bodies why the hell is ship technology so ancient?
What?
If you think about the nano technology needed to replicate the human body, make a clone, suddenly a space ship is more to the effect of making a toaster. Clone technology would imply we figrued out how to make far more impressive ships than they are now. I have a com link to a corp mate 300 AU away but I can't communicate with my drone 300 km off my starboard bow. |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.05.30 01:39:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Nova Fox on 30/05/2011 01:42:17 Ships in Eve in array of various technologies to be able to withstand the extreme forces of eve from shells traveling over 400km/s to intense pressuress caused by wormhole jumping.
Everything from automated machines, nano framing and washing materials in and whole fabricated parts as much as possible into the fewest peices as possible would make any mordern ship builder jealous of ingenuity of stability and design despite some ships looking stucturally unsound. The vast complex arrays and automation in ships significantly reduce crew required foot prints lowering the sizes of required life support and allowing more room for other critical systems from navigation to counter detection. Comparable ships would require crews almost three times larger with 'primitive' technologies, and thanks to pod technologies reduce crew sizes even further.
Further more your ships own computers are already stressed with managing space phsyics in ensuring shots dont curve off course of the and all the possible parameters that can cause a shot to veer of course are constnatly looked for, scanned, ananlyzed, and predicted at time of arrival of the round along with current ship functions, the ship's fire control systems can only effectively control drones so far away as they have to get that information near real time and its quite alot of information. Carriers on the other hand are specifically designed to ananlzye entire battlefields and are able to link the information to more units and farther distances. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 3APR11
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Astroka
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Posted - 2011.05.30 02:50:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Astroka on 30/05/2011 02:56:29
Originally by: Skydell
Originally by: Astroka
Originally by: Skydell Edited by: Skydell on 29/05/2011 20:43:43 My question is, if they can replicate human bodies why the hell is ship technology so ancient?
What?
If you think about the nano technology needed to replicate the human body, make a clone, suddenly a space ship is more to the effect of making a toaster. Clone technology would imply we figrued out how to make far more impressive ships than they are now. I have a com link to a corp mate 300 AU away but I can't communicate with my drone 300 km off my starboard bow.
You do realize we can already create clones IRL, right? Ever heard of Dolly the sheep? First cloned animal. Years and years back. Dolly
Edit: Funny thing, though, we've found that clones actually age faster than the original.
Originally by: Ioci Welcome to the bustedness of EVE.
1 guy can disband a 2000 man alliance and wipe out trillions, that's cool. Give back a noob 10 mill? No, that's game breaking.
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CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.30 07:49:00 -
[42]
I love this thread.
(obligatory disclaimer: this is just my personal opinion and shouldn't be considered canon. Although I'll ask the storyline team to have a look at this thread and elaborate a bit more, should they see fit to do so.)
Regarding euthanizing original capsuleers' bodies: I think it would make sense do to so, if only to ensure that the new body is fully compatible with the capsule technology and that all little inconsistencies (e.g. some genetic quirks) are removed. After all, the process should have evolved somewhat since the Jovian Wetgrave...
Originally by: Nova Fox Edited by: Nova Fox on 30/05/2011 01:42:17 Ships in Eve in array of various technologies to be able to withstand the extreme forces of eve from shells traveling over 400km/s to intense pressuress caused by wormhole jumping.
Everything from automated machines, nano framing and washing materials in and whole fabricated parts as much as possible into the fewest peices as possible would make any mordern ship builder jealous of ingenuity of stability and design despite some ships looking stucturally unsound. The vast complex arrays and automation in ships significantly reduce crew required foot prints lowering the sizes of required life support and allowing more room for other critical systems from navigation to counter detection. Comparable ships would require crews almost three times larger with 'primitive' technologies, and thanks to pod technologies reduce crew sizes even further.
Further more your ships own computers are already stressed with managing space phsyics in ensuring shots dont curve off course of the and all the possible parameters that can cause a shot to veer of course are constnatly looked for, scanned, ananlyzed, and predicted at time of arrival of the round along with current ship functions, the ship's fire control systems can only effectively control drones so far away as they have to get that information near real time and its quite alot of information. Carriers on the other hand are specifically designed to ananlzye entire battlefields and are able to link the information to more units and farther distances.
The excellent post above pretty much sums my own personal opinion on the matter. I would also like to point out that technology in the future may advance at different speeds in different fields -- "The Road Not Taken" by Harry Turtledove would be a perfect (if humorous) illustration of that.
Finally, this thread would be much better off in EVE Fiction, so I'm moving it there. Please keep the discussion going!
Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online |
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2011.05.30 08:01:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Pottsey on 30/05/2011 08:02:27 With if this euthanize your old body part is only the newest method for new pod pilots. Perhaps they found it works better and has other advantages so only new pod pilots go though this. I like to think us older Pod pilots went though a more primitive method that didn't kill the body but had less chance of working. It's like the ships have crew's argument. Just because most battleships or cruisers have crews it doesn't mean all ships have to have crew's. There is no reason there has to be only one way to do things and I bet different cloning stations mostly those off different corps have different procedures and ways of doing things.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.05.30 08:04:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Astroka
Edit: Funny thing, though, we've found that clones actually age faster than the original.
lol,like in fictions then ? funny
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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
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Posted - 2011.05.30 08:17:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Nova Fox
Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium
Originally by: Kiandoshia I think that when a capsuleer dies or uses a jump clone or anything really, they really do die
Then you really do die every second. But you don't, consciousness is not a thing, it is a process. Therefore, where that process happens isn't important; that people think consciousness is an object is a culturally bound perception.
Unfourtunantely awareness doest seem to spread from one person to another thing, even if you replicated it down to the exact details, the old awareness is gond entirely, we have yet managed to cause one person to control two living bodies, but there is the unknown frontier of cyber space where one could possibly 'upload' themselves though this option is being researched we already stamped out that 'cloning' does not transfer awareness.
I never said simple cloning transfers awareness. What I'm saying, or at least tried to say, without being blunt, cynical, or snarky about it, is that Western ideas about the soul belong in the North Pole with Santa Claus, as another poster put it bluntly enough.
You are not that lump of matter organized into a pattern, it is that pattern which makes up "You". Your body already cycles through matter at a very fast rate. Upon pod destruction, that rate is temporarily sped up. But what actually makes up "You", still exists, it is the information which describes how to arrange the matter. You're making an artificial distinction between rates of exchange of matter between a closed system (your body), and the environment (the rest of the universe). Then on top of that people are taking on this spook business.
The only real "death" would be a loss of information, and even that isn't black and white. On the other hand has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? ________________________________________________
Huh? |
Mirabi Tiane
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Posted - 2011.05.30 08:24:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Pottsey With if this euthanize your old body part is only the newest method for new pod pilots. Perhaps they found it works better and has other advantages so only new pod pilots go though this. I like to think us older Pod pilots went though a more primitive method that didn't kill the body but had less chance of working.
I'm going with this. ...Partly to spite CCP for making random changes to the PF without offering any notification beyond whatever obscure in-game text the change has been stealthily brought in with. |
Theodorus The'Scholar
Azure Horizon
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Posted - 2011.05.30 09:17:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Theodorus The''Scholar on 30/05/2011 09:17:44 I do think that once cloned, the origianl person is dead, and another person is brought into existence - The process as it is just doesn't give you the option to think otherwise.
Imagine however, if your destination clone could be activated without you dieing first, would you be willing to give up your life, standing in front of another copy of "you", that to you is clearly a different person, with different train of thought and diverging memories.
This discussion reminds me of two chronicles, one is online Linkage
The other one was in E-On i think, about a man whose cloning opration failed, so he had his memories, but his pod interface had to be removed. He took some time to accept the change and return to mortality but in the end was happy. Later, the technicians managed to fix the problem and offered him the chance to activate another clone, with the original snapshot from when he had died; he declined, as it would have meant losing the memories he had gained in his current clone. Not to spoil the chronicle, but his spouse couldn't accept that..
Edit, poor spelling
-- Theo
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Geana Tem
Gallente The Order of Symbolic Measures
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Posted - 2011.05.30 09:52:00 -
[48]
There is a process to actively record brain cell activity "memories" using photons and light receptive proteins implanted into brain cells being refined RIGHT NOW. see:
TED. Ed Boyden: A light switch for neurons http://www.ted.com/talks/ed_boyden.html
It is not a hard stretch of the imagination to consider that the process to grow a modified clone with the ability to be programmed via light is the easy part.
But recording the first image from the original body could only be destructive and the original body would not have the receptors in place to be reprogrammed.
That is assuming that this real world bleeding edge technology is used. EVE needs to stay ahead of the game.
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Mirabi Tiane
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Posted - 2011.05.30 10:15:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Theodorus The'Scholar I do think that once cloned, the origianl person is dead, and another person is brought into existence - The process as it is just doesn't give you the option to think otherwise.
It does, actually. Just depends on the definitions you're using, such as the definitions of "person" and "dead".
My opinion on the whole subject boils down to this: Transneural burning scanners do not make copypasta. _____________________________ [Sebiestor tattoos and hair plus Intaki hair: Bring them back.] |
Calathea Sata
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.05.30 11:12:00 -
[50]
If a teleporter transfers you by technically breaking down the molecules and reconstructing you again at the destination, it is still just a teleporter and it is transparent to the user and it doesn't MATTER if your body is "erased" and "remade" in the process.
Same for cloning, it's all just technical details and language peoblems that one shouldn't be strangled with.
An interesting fact (whether true or not): the atoms in your body is completely replaced every 7 years. Does the slowly "dying" and concurrent "renewing" of your body makes you any of a "new person"? You might have a constantly renewing person "human body" but you the consciousness mind the personality the memories the person that is you never at one point died or resurrected.
Another fact to think about is that you are actually dying every second because the you now is different from the you 1 second ago because of the additional thinking/metabolism/aging. So you see, we die ALL THE TIME.
See how it is all just a confusion of meaning of words? Cloning doesn't KILL or make you a NEW people, it's just... cloning. A spare body so you don't have to worry about this one.
Another fact to think about: when a pilot is podded he is not technically killed. Because the moment the pod is bleached the BRAINSCAN transfers your consciousness to your clone BEFORE your old body gets brainfried by the brainscan machine BEFORE getting destroyed by the actual explosion. And at the point of brainscan happens your body in the pod is no longer "you" but a mindless body clone and it doesn't matter if it gets destroyed because you are already "on your way" into a new safer body in the medical bay. So technically there was no "killing" in the whole process, only a change of clone(body).
Perhaps a brainscan doesn't actually fry your brain because how do you explain jump-clones, hmm? Perhaps during a pod bleach brainscan the brain is never fried, for a split second the clone is merely "deactivated" and is fully reusable like another jump clone, but only get destroyed by the pod bleach explosion.
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Logan LaMort
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.30 16:36:00 -
[51]
Originally by: CCP Spitfire I love this thread.
(obligatory disclaimer: this is just my personal opinion and shouldn't be considered canon. Although I'll ask the storyline team to have a look at this thread and elaborate a bit more, should they see fit to do so.)
Regarding euthanizing original capsuleers' bodies: I think it would make sense do to so, if only to ensure that the new body is fully compatible with the capsule technology and that all little inconsistencies (e.g. some genetic quirks) are removed. After all, the process should have evolved somewhat since the Jovian Wetgrave...
Originally by: Nova Fox Edited by: Nova Fox on 30/05/2011 01:42:17 Ships in Eve in array of various technologies to be able to withstand the extreme forces of eve from shells traveling over 400km/s to intense pressuress caused by wormhole jumping.
Everything from automated machines, nano framing and washing materials in and whole fabricated parts as much as possible into the fewest peices as possible would make any mordern ship builder jealous of ingenuity of stability and design despite some ships looking stucturally unsound. The vast complex arrays and automation in ships significantly reduce crew required foot prints lowering the sizes of required life support and allowing more room for other critical systems from navigation to counter detection. Comparable ships would require crews almost three times larger with 'primitive' technologies, and thanks to pod technologies reduce crew sizes even further.
Further more your ships own computers are already stressed with managing space phsyics in ensuring shots dont curve off course of the and all the possible parameters that can cause a shot to veer of course are constnatly looked for, scanned, ananlyzed, and predicted at time of arrival of the round along with current ship functions, the ship's fire control systems can only effectively control drones so far away as they have to get that information near real time and its quite alot of information. Carriers on the other hand are specifically designed to ananlzye entire battlefields and are able to link the information to more units and farther distances.
The excellent post above pretty much sums my own personal opinion on the matter. I would also like to point out that technology in the future may advance at different speeds in different fields -- "The Road Not Taken" by Harry Turtledove would be a perfect (if humorous) illustration of that.
Finally, this thread would be much better off in EVE Fiction, so I'm moving it there. Please keep the discussion going!
The only thing that doesn't make sense, is why the original body is destroyed. Why not just clone jump into the new body and have the original body on standby in case of complications?
As regular people with enough money can clone jump, it's not like the pilot can't make that initial transition.
I guess my biggest problem is that it takes away from your first pod death, when you make that transition from your original body you've always lived in to a new clone light years away. That's always been kind of an initiation rite of being a real capsuleer. It's just not the same having it on the first page of the welcome tutorial.
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Ze'ev Sinraali
Ataraxia Pharmacies
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Posted - 2011.05.30 19:22:00 -
[52]
It's absurd. If you have the technology to make a clone compatible with implant technology, you have the technology to make the original compatible. After all, a high-quality clone is somebody else's dead body with your DNA shoved into it.
My operating theory right now is that it's just Aura being a ****. She used to laugh at you the first time you got podded too. Sadistic AI fits with EVE better than throwing away perfectly useful biomass.
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Mirabi Tiane
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Posted - 2011.05.31 01:03:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ze'ev Sinraali It's absurd. If you have the technology to make a clone compatible with implant technology, you have the technology to make the original compatible. After all, a high-quality clone is somebody else's dead body with your DNA shoved into it.
My operating theory right now is that it's just Aura being a ****. She used to laugh at you the first time you got podded too. Sadistic AI fits with EVE better than throwing away perfectly useful biomass.
Heheheh, I love this idea. _____________________________ [Sebiestor tattoos and hair plus Intaki hair: Bring them back.] |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.05.31 06:49:00 -
[54]
I for one welcome our renewed malevolent voice in our head. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 3APR11
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FeralShadow
NME1
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:41:00 -
[55]
The only problem I have with the consciousness being transient argument is that when you clone another person, but your physical body isn't destroyed, it's a completely seperate person standing before you, but with exactly the same memories. You aren't that person. Then you go to biomass, and you're dead, and the other lives on. Your consciousness won't transfer because the second body already has its own. _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.06.01 01:09:00 -
[56]
Its like installing software on one computer then another. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 3APR11
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CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.01 15:11:00 -
[57]
Esteemed CCP Dropbear just made a very detailed post on this matter here.
Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online |
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