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Azrael Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
10
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Posted - 2012.09.14 12:14:00 -
[31] - Quote
Alec Enderas wrote:Abu Tarynnia wrote:as just another noob (some 5mil sp) I want to contribute my opinion. The skill-system in itself is perfekt. Nothing more to say. BUT .. I find it strange that I can have 3 Chars in one account but only one at a time can train. Why is that ? For me this looks illogical and I think it would make sense to let the other train while I can only fly with one at a time. So I can have my specials for what I just want to play at that time .. which is kind of skill-swapping, but anyhow. I think it would make the simpliest solution and won't hurt the game.
Abu It was possible some time ago (long b4 i started to play), was then disabled. Why - to have people get more accounts, buy more plex, subscriptions.....
To control that people would not set alts to train titan skills (just an example) to 5 and then sell them on character bazaar. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9497
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Posted - 2012.09.14 12:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
Abu Tarynnia wrote:I find it strange that I can have 3 Chars in one account but only one at a time can train. Why is that ? It's pretty much the industry standard: you can only skill one character at a time. The only difference in EVE is that you don't need to be online to train the skills.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Drew Solaert
Wildcard Inc.
215
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Posted - 2012.09.14 13:23:00 -
[33] - Quote
This will always be something I'm against.
The current system rewards specialisation and planning, and most importantly using your brain when you are on the lower end of the SP pool. It's an aspect nearly every game lacks these days where it's either "We'll hold your hand." or "Strip back the choices and the meta!"
Eve has a niche and the current SP system fits it perfectly. I lied :o
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Obsidiana
White-Noise
187
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Posted - 2012.09.16 04:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
We've been getting ways to train faster since the beginning of EVE. I see no reason for the trend to stop. My question is: what should and will the next one be? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9510
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Posted - 2012.09.16 10:25:00 -
[35] - Quote
Obsidiana wrote:We've been getting ways to train faster since the beginning of EVE. I see no reason for the trend to stop. It already has. The removal of learning skills meant we went from a 2772 SP/h max speed to a mere 2700GǪ
GǪbut we got a better overall training mechanic as a result, so it was ok. There's pretty much no reason to make it faster than it is and quite a few reasons to prolong it. Not so much by slowing it down but by adding more skills to train. The problem is figuring out stuff that's worth-while to add without just piling on new tiers on top of what's already there.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
60
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Posted - 2012.09.16 11:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
Alec Enderas wrote:Abu Tarynnia wrote:as just another noob (some 5mil sp) I want to contribute my opinion. The skill-system in itself is perfekt. Nothing more to say. BUT .. I find it strange that I can have 3 Chars in one account but only one at a time can train. Why is that ? It was possible some time ago (long b4 i started to play), was then disabled.
This is plain wrong. It has never been possible to train multiple characters on the same account. Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Alec Enderas
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
8
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Posted - 2012.09.16 11:55:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sable Moran wrote:Alec Enderas wrote:Abu Tarynnia wrote:as just another noob (some 5mil sp) I want to contribute my opinion. The skill-system in itself is perfekt. Nothing more to say. BUT .. I find it strange that I can have 3 Chars in one account but only one at a time can train. Why is that ? It was possible some time ago (long b4 i started to play), was then disabled. This is plain wrong. It has never been possible to train multiple characters on the same account.
Sorry for the confusion then, that's what i read on the forums. |
Obsidiana
White-Noise
188
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Posted - 2012.09.16 17:38:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Obsidiana wrote:We've been getting ways to train faster since the beginning of EVE. I see no reason for the trend to stop. It already has. The removal of learning skills meant we went from a 2772 SP/h max speed to a mere 2700GǪ GǪbut we got a better overall training mechanic as a result, so it was ok. There's pretty much no reason to make it faster than it is and quite a few reasons to prolong it. Not so much by slowing it down but by adding more skills to train. The problem is figuring out stuff that's worth-while to add without just piling on new tiers on top of what's already there. True, from a max possible skill perspective, a player over 35 days old now has a slightly slower learning potential. However, the average player training speed went way up. It depends on your point of view. That said, a young player with Cybernetics 5, the Cerebral Accelerator, and a attribute focused remap will train faster than that. I don't know what that speed is, but it is faster than the old max. (I do not know what the old "double training until 1 mil SP" speed was.)
My case for Attribute Enhancing Boosters is this: they go well with PvP. If you have cheap +1/2/3 implants and one (skills to five) day boosters for +1/2/3s also accessible, they can be risked. The boosters run out anyway. Risk vs. Reward now can extend to learning. Furthermore, the profit to be made from these boosters would be considerable. Implants are not player made in the truest sense, but they are needed as an ISK sink. AEBs fill the void of player created attribute manipulation. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
90
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Posted - 2012.09.18 16:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
I think more accelerated skill training is definitely up to CCP's discretion. BUT I personally do not understand the need for faster skill training. I mean how many ships can you actually fly at any given time? The general answer is ONE. In regard to training skills to level 5 it is an interesting conundrum. On one hand there are players that say the level 5 is not necessary to fly ships, which is true. But there is the other side that it does add up, which is also true. The difference is that skills at level 5 do not, SIGNIFICANTLY, provide bonuses but rather in a collective manner. For example: all related gunnery skills at level 5 will beat another player with level 4s only.
Overall, Eve is not so much a game of individualized skill training that aims to be level 5 but rather the collective synergy that players get from them. In that regard the skills are a significant key to enjoyment and semi success.
But to get the core skills to a worthwhile level does not take so long. To clarify I would argue that capacitor, armor/shield, and navigation are the core. While weapon and ship skills are the secondary depending on which faction you fly. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
169
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Posted - 2012.09.21 17:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
To be honest I am looking forward to the days in the near future when I will be able to train skills that take 60+ days. Currently my longest train times are 23-26 days. I think jump drive calibration 5 took me a little over 30 days.
It is like taking a break from worrying about your training schedule. No worries about I have to log in today to update my que. It is nice to have that break occasionally. Maybe when you get to +100 mil SP almost all the skills left you want are long train times. But that is your own fault for not plugging some in sooner. Like I said it give you a break. I have had a few times when I new I would not get on much for a month or so and used that time to train some long skills. When RL pulls you away from the game for a month or so, It is nice to come back to long train skill at 5. It usually opens up a lot of new options and really feels like the cost to keep my subs going while I could not play worthwhile.
I believe this is why there are so many older gamers that play EVE. It is not full of teenagers like most MMO's. many EVE players like me have limited game time due to real life responsibilities, and do not want to spend that limited time grinding up levels. Paying your sub every month and logging in even just to update a skill que guarantee's your characters development. Then when you have time to log in and actually play you are doing what you want to do not spending the time grinding.
EVE is not about how many skill points you have, but how your actions can help shape the EVE universe. Contributions of players like the late Vile Rat go far beyond skill points. When you learn to see past the skill points, and recognize the options a true sandbox MMO gives you, then you will truly learn what EVE is all about. |
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Azrael Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
12
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Posted - 2012.09.22 10:59:00 -
[41] - Quote
When I stareted this topic I was thinking new ways to get SP faster.
I see now that almost all are against this and most importantly cause everyone seems to think it's somehow a bad thing that you could train up faster.
When I originaly started to think about this I never wanted to see a grinding XP all the time every where. My originaly idea was to add something extra just a small piece not alot but a little bit. Like most of you I have hard time thinking eve as a huge grinding game to get more xp and level up. But I felt like if I'm doing something. Why I'm not getting better at it while I'm doing it. And not just the meta side of the game when you do your research and know all the details so you are beter but in the game skill wise better.
so mayby it would be a specific level of skill or something or just that extra SP what you would get but the general idea was that I felt that when I do something I realy do not get better at it when you think about skills.
But this is just me.
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Chevy Hakoke
Gnome Industries
45
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Posted - 2012.09.22 18:28:00 -
[42] - Quote
As much as people love touting the "EVE has been around for 10 years longer then any other MMO" I have never seen the amount of people on go over 50k during the weekends, not to mention most of those people are alts, which means the number of unique users is well under that number
Despite that the game is very unfriendly to noobs (whether its the game itself, or other players) and as one noob I was speaking to said: "I can see now why WOW has a million users, and this barely gets over 40k at one time"
Overall those with high SP, isk, and a established path/course/corp will say "NO LET THE NOOBS DO IT THE HARD WAY AND IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT GO BACK TO WOW", but then those same vets ***** about how eve hasn't given them all features the want, nor fixed all the bugs, etc. Its not because CCP is lazy, but because those things won't bring in new players, but just satisfy the vets, which means no growth, but expense.
Noobs means growth, profit, expansion, which means more devs hired, and means more people to fix bugs/ban bots/go after RMT/etc
So give the noobs faster skill training, not saying they should be pushing Titans in a month, but redo the base skill ranks and make more skills easier to get so that noobs can enjoy the game faster, I don't hear anyone complaining about warping to 0 when back in the day that wasn't possible |
Michael Orlais
Cornucopia Ltd.
3
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Posted - 2012.09.22 18:44:00 -
[43] - Quote
Let's say you're a student learning mathematics. You start with basic operations like addition, subtraction (level 1), work your way up to the simple algebra and maybe sprinkle in geometry (level 2), get up to calculus (level 3), then you get the matrices and modulo spaces and linear algebra which helps you do everything faster with the help of computers (level 4), and then finally you get to the theoretical stuff that only some puny percentile of the population is interested in (level 5).
Let's say you're currently trained in calculus and you have already learned all of the basics(at level 3). Why should doing more calculus problems help you with the higher level stuff, like linear algebra(level 4) and operation theory(level 5)? The answer is, it shouldn't. If anything it should just keep you from forgetting calculus.
I know that this is a really convenient example that I'm using, but I can think of many more. In EVE, your character is learning higher level functions, things that cannot be learned through simple repetition. The system you are proposing is archaic and something that would only apply to cavemen who are practicing some simple task like making fires or carving stone. If there was an EVE skill like "physical strength" then yeah I would say you should be able to box or lift weights to improve it, but that really is not the case. |
Kenneth O'Hara
9155
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 13:21:00 -
[44] - Quote
Michael Orlais wrote:Let's say you're a student learning mathematics. You start with basic operations like addition, subtraction (level 1), work your way up to the simple algebra and maybe sprinkle in geometry (level 2), get up to calculus (level 3), then you get the matrices and modulo spaces and linear algebra which helps you do everything faster with the help of computers (level 4), and then finally you get to the theoretical stuff that only some puny percentile of the population is interested in (level 5).
Let's say you're currently trained in calculus and you have already learned all of the basics(at level 3). Why should doing more calculus problems help you with the higher level stuff, like linear algebra(level 4) and operation theory(level 5)? The answer is, it shouldn't. If anything it should just keep you from forgetting calculus.
I know that this is a really convenient example that I'm using, but I can think of many more. In EVE, your character is learning higher level functions, things that cannot be learned through simple repetition. The system you are proposing is archaic and something that would only apply to cavemen who are practicing some simple task like making fires or carving stone. If there was an EVE skill like "physical strength" then yeah I would say you should be able to box or lift weights to improve it, but that really is not the case.
I don't think Azrael Dinn was looking at it that way. It sounded like he was meaning we learn how to learn faster, not the actual skills themselves. We are all unique in how we learn things, but once we figure out how we learn, then we can improve that and optimize.
I could be completely wrong on his view for I am not him. It just made sense to me this way. Stick around. I'm full of bad ideas. ~Isaac Clarke *Bait* with your altGäó *Bacon* with your mainGäó |
Bluree
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.12.18 20:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
You will not get the answer your looking for by posting on an EVE Online forum. Simply because anyone on these forums has no issue with the current system or they wouldn't be here.
When you look at the amount of MMO players in the world its obvious that only a SMALL handful agree with this system. Given the quality of this game there should be millions of people playing.
What everyone is not taking into consideration is the OP's original point...new players run from eve online because the system in place is so intimidating that they give up when they realize that it takes literally YEARS to get enough skills to fly the ship you want or compete with veteran players.
I truly believe if it were not for the massive amount of time it takes to level up that this game would have 10x the player base that it currently does, if not more.
I can personally name at least 20 people that i know from other MMO that wont touch eve online because of this reason.
So you have to ask yourself, is it really a good thing to cater to a small group of hardcore eve players or to the potential MILLIONS of people that would love to get into EVE but simply do not have the time or patience to do the grind.
I think something should be done to make it more enjoyable and less intimidating for new players. I say this because i wish to see EVE online expand its player base much more than it is...why?
Because that means that CCP can afford to put more into features to making it better for everyone.
More subs= more money= more features |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
63
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Posted - 2012.12.18 22:22:00 -
[46] - Quote
Bluree wrote:What everyone is not taking into consideration is the OP's original point...new players run from eve online because the system in place is so intimidating that they give up when they realize that it takes literally YEARS to get enough skills to fly the ship you want or compete with veteran players. I truly believe if it were not for the massive amount of time it takes to level up that this game would have 10x the player base that it currently does, if not more. There was nothing intimidating in this system , when I got into EVE in 2010. That's just 2 years back now.
Actually this system is extremely friendly to casual play styles. That's good.
This "I have to level up" thing is just a mental barrier imposed by experiences from other mmos and some people seem unable to overcome it. You don't HAVE to level up in EVE, to compete or be competitive. The sandbox offers alternatives. But ofc, you have to make friends to do it. Again a good thing. After all it's an mmo.
Is it nice to fly a shiny big thing you've worked hard to get and get into? Maybe. Maybe not. It sort of depends on a lot of things. Is it essential to have fun in this game? Not really. Especially not early on.
Much more important: The intimidating question many newbies cannot seem to answer by themselves even at the end of the tutorial can be found in the rookie channel ever so often:
"What am I supposed to do in this game?"
This is somewhat confusing, because CCP would be expected to transfer this message on the EVE Onlilne website, before people join for their trial. And I fear, that the new affiliate program is not at all up to this task. At least that's my conclusion from observing rookie chat during the last two weeks. |
Toxic Raioin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.12.18 23:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
Azrael Dinn wrote:Yes yes it's bad it's bad it's bad cause someone will find a way to exploit everything. Anyhow So I'm proposing that CCP lets us train skills faster. (yes yes I have the implants and over 100mil sp) But realisticly it's stupid how long it takes training time to train something for your self. It's bad from the point of new players who want to try the game and for old players who want to train something else for a while and knowing it's going to be a new 1 year skill plan until you get into a new fancy ship with fitting and all. Most likely someone has posted this but still lets post again and wait for the link to the other threat What I would like to see is that you get some kind of reward (SP wise, not the experience that comes from it and you get better at something by knowing how to do it) from playing the game. Mayby the +7 implants or bigger that where on the list a while back. Half the training times. Anything... just do something cause training is taking forever. And bohoo if people make "fast alts" to do something specialized. They will do it anyways.
You should know by now people will say "faster times= instant gratification". Dont ask me how trimming off some hours, days, or weeks equates to instant gratification but miraculously it does. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
18
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Posted - 2012.12.19 02:31:00 -
[48] - Quote
some people recognize two things:
Eve will be around for a long time, SP status.
FireT wrote:I think more accelerated skill training is definitely up to CCP's discretion. BUT I personally do not understand the need for faster skill training. I mean how many ships can you actually fly at any given time? The general answer is ONE.
ship maintenance bay allows me to fly with ALL my things |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb
0
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Posted - 2012.12.19 02:53:00 -
[49] - Quote
I'm a very low SP character (about 3 and a half months of playtime total), and I like the skill system exactly as it is. Sure, I would love to be able to hop into a super carrier next week, but that defeats the purpose of working toward anything in this game. I admire the fact that CCP doesn't bow to the masses and make it easy to get everything right away. By having a slowly building and virtually bottomless pool of resources, you always have something new and fresh to work for and look forward to. The game never stagnates, because as long as you are training skills, you are always building up to something different.
I understand that this means some characters will always have an advantage, and I like that. So many games make every effort to keep things fair and even, but do so at the expense of the veteran crowd. By having an obvious power split, there will always be a challenge and something to work for. Is it daunting at first to realize that it will take over a year to get into some ships? Of course! But there is so much to do between starting the game and flying your dream boat that you will never be bored. Despite my disadvantage against those that have been playing much longer than me, I am quite content with things as they are and do not wish to see any major changes to this system.
If anything, the only change I can think of that would be useful to new players without compromising the game's integrity would be a longer-than-24 hour skill planning queue. While high-SP characters can load a single skill and not have to mess with it for days or weeks, low SP players often have a pile of short skills to train, making it very difficult to plan past a day. With an extra day or so's worth of plan time, newer players could better visualize what they are aiming for.
Again though, that is such a small change that it really isn't necessary, and would have little impact outside of the newest crowd. There really is no need to change anything. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
18
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Posted - 2012.12.19 03:40:00 -
[50] - Quote
man, a longer skill queue would be awesome. would've saved me from losing training time while being deployed in Iraq...
but even that was long fought-for... (24 hr skill queue). |
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