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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.04 23:18:00 -
[1]
OK, so you run missions for your favorite agent. Rack up the loyalty points then realize that some items (the ones that require isk + LP)can be purchased cheaper on the market than in the LP store even with the "reduced" loyalty point store price.
Defeats the purpose of getting "rewarded" by acquiring loyaty points doesnt it?
Loyalty point store prices should then be dynamic and reflect market trends.
Or is there something I'm missing?
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.04 23:36:00 -
[2]
+1
The LP stores need constant rebalancing. There are way too many "rewards" with a negative LP value.
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Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.04 23:53:00 -
[3]
Here's how the market works:
If there is more supply than demand, prices fall.
So stop farming for LP's and do something other than PvE for once in your EVE-lives.
HABIT
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:04:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 05/06/2011 00:05:16
Originally by: Roh Voleto +1
The LP stores need constant rebalancing. There are way too many "rewards" with a negative LP value.
The market already balances them naturally and that is why some offers are valued so low. Those corps are either heavily farmed, some of the people farming them have the "LPs I grind are free" -mentality or the store offer is just one alternative way of getting that item. Point being the price of the items are the correct ones and CCP fidling with LP costs will just cause the markets to adjust again making your new offers equally bad as the old ones.
A better solution to the issue is for you to do some basic market research about the LP store items to find the good offers or work for a less farmed corporation. Alternatively you can avoid doing either of those things and accept a bad LP to ISK conversion rate for your LPs.
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:09:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 00:12:58
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Here's how the market works: ...
That's all nice and fine. The market is what sets the ISK value of any effort in EVE. Working with the market is what makes the difference between getting 300 and 3000 ISK per LP. The problem are a growing number of items which get you -3000 ISK/LP.
This is a sign of mudflation. You can not have a healthy in-game economy without compensating for it with game design.
Edit: Don't get me wrong. Reducing the LP rewards of missions would be a valid alternative, too.
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Jojin
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:16:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Jojin on 05/06/2011 00:16:22
Originally by: Roh Voleto Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 00:12:58
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Here's how the market works: ...
That's all nice and fine. The market is what sets the ISK value of any effort in EVE. Working with the market is what makes the difference between getting 300 and 3000 ISK per LP. The problem are a growing number of items which get you -3000 ISK/LP.
This is a sign of mudflation. You can not have a healthy in-game economy without compensating for it with game design.
Edit: Don't get me wrong. Reducing the LP rewards of missions would be a valid alternative, too.
There is nothing wrong with that. It just means you are creating more supply than the demand. Just like anything else in the game. If you create to much of an item, then eventually you will get a flood and the price will inverse.
LP are rewards for items. You already get direct ISK from doing the missions. But if you insist on just turning it all into cash, then look for consumable LP items like ammo.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Here's how the market works:
If there is more supply than demand, prices fall.
So stop farming for LP's and do something other than PvE for once in your EVE-lives.
So what you are saying is stop playing a certain aspect of EVE(in this case mission running)in order to fix the market.
As a player, I dont believe that is my responsibility any more than me getting podded is CCP's.
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Cat o'Ninetails
Caldari Rancer Defence League
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:19:00 -
[8]
it is not that bad lol, the main issue is unrelated to the issue you raised, you pointed out at least one issue, but really it has little relevence to the situation. i honestly look forwards to more of your words, but am not sure they are appropriate in this situation.
much <3 though
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:30:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 00:30:59
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
So what you are saying is stop playing a certain aspect of EVE(in this case mission running)in order to fix the market.
That would be a valid answer in the real world. But it makes for bad game design when a large part of your player-base enjoys this particular part of your game, and your answer is punishing them for it. It would be much better to reduce the reward, or otherwise balance the rewards with the "natural" in-game economy.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch So what you are saying is stop playing a certain aspect of EVE(in this case mission running)in order to fix the market.
As a player, I dont believe that is my responsibility any more than me getting podded is CCP's.
The problem here is that your mind is screwed, not market. Market is not something that CCP created, and is not something they want to control, aside certain key points, like PLEX. It is other players that want or not want to buy the items you are selling. -- Thanks CCP for cu |
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Shira Elan
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:41:00 -
[11]
Yes, the thing you're missing is that the only relevant item you should care about is the one that gets the most ISK/LP.
They could remove the ISK charge and that would mean all items would be "profitable" but then Dr. E would lose one of his ISK sinks.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Atticus Fynch So what you are saying is stop playing a certain aspect of EVE(in this case mission running)in order to fix the market.
As a player, I dont believe that is my responsibility any more than me getting podded is CCP's.
The problem here is that your mind is screwed, not market. Market is not something that CCP created, and is not something they want to control, aside certain key points, like PLEX. It is other players that want or not want to buy the items you are selling.
Whe a "reward" feature of a game is no longer a reward, then it's broken. That is how I see it.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:45:00 -
[13]
You confusing terms "reward" and "profit". Reward you get for completed mission. When you are trying to make profit out of it by selling if through market, you're entering absolutely separate ground. And if you oversupply market with your offrers, market won't be able to absorb them. -- Thanks CCP for cu |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:48:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tonto Auri You confusing terms "reward" and "profit". Reward you get for completed mission. When you are trying to make profit out of it by selling if through market, you're entering absolutely separate ground. And if you oversupply market with your offrers, market won't be able to absorb them.
Im not selling. I went to get an item at an LP store. Checked the market and found I could get it for much less and not use up any LP points in the process.
Granted, there are still good deals in LP stores, but some items are best bought on the market, or should just be removed from LP stores altogether.
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:05:00 -
[15]
This thread has reached my rumination threshold. So, let me repeat my argument one more time, before we risk to "agree to disagree", or do something else which would make me question my sexual orientation:
Negative LP conversion rates are a result of bad game design. They add complexity without offering depth.
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Cole Phelps
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Shira Elan They could remove the ISK charge and that would mean all items would be "profitable"...
This is actually what should be done. The point of a Loyalty Point store should be that your loyalty to that corporation should pay off. Otherwise they should rename the store and call the loyalty point-system something else. When an item is easier (less playing time invested) aquired simply by buying from the open market, the whole concept is broken.
And yes, off course all LP-store items should be profitable to sell. If not, the LP points you get from missions have no meaning/function.
In principle I agree with Atticus Fynch here, but I don't think CCP should make dynamic ISK and/or LP prices to try to compensate for the trends in the open market. Instead, remove the ISK cost of all items, and increase the LP cost. Then these items will always be a reward for the faithful mission-runner.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:15:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Roh Voleto Negative LP conversion rates are a result of bad game design. They add complexity without offering depth.
I would say that letting people destroy their own wealth is a hilarious and quite welcome addition of depth.
Sure, you COULD make it so LP shop items have auto-adjusting prices depending on market stats, but that is only valid for items where they CAN be sold on the market. How about items that can only be sold via contracts for now ? Do you propose to add a contract average value calculated (and why not, also displayed) ? Or maybe a contract price history ? Or maybe you simply wish all items to be tradeable via the market (frankly, I'd like that too, but that's not going to happen any time soon). What about the variable price then ? How do you propose the prices should vary then ? Should it be a typical NPC "between 90% and 110%" pathetically small variation ? Or should it hover wildly ? Which parts of it should be adjustable, the ISK, the LP or the "tags" cost too ? If only one, why not the rest ? If all of them, what's stopping some of those far less popular items from EVENTUALLY plummeting below even T1 item cost ? So you want some limits ? What exactly should those limits be ? And how exactly would they prevent the exact same scenario (of "negative LP conversion" from happening ?
While things could probably be better, they are not that bad right now. And you will never be able to protect all people from their own stupidity, so why the hell even bother. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Akita T
Or maybe you simply wish all items to be tradeable via the market (frankly, I'd like that too, but that's not going to happen any time soon).
Yes, I do.
Originally by: Akita T
I would say that letting people destroy their own wealth is a hilarious and quite welcome addition of depth.
It would be, and it would fit right in with the "cold and harsh" meme, if... I don't know... Agents would make you individual offers to "reward you" for your loyalty. It is nothing but tedium, however, if converting LP means making a spreadsheet for dozens of items, or risking money.
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Cole Phelps
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:40:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Cole Phelps And yes, off course all LP-store items should be profitable to sell. If not, the LP points you get from missions have no meaning/function.
No, they shouldn't. This would mean either completely eliminating some of the less popular items from the list, or reducing the prices of those items to such a degree to make it laughable. As long as even ONE item in the LP store can be resold at a profit, ANY profit, there is a point to the LP store. Sure, the reward might not be as big as you HOPED for, but that's a completely different story. You're already getting more than enough rewards from several different sources whenever you mission, that even if LPs would be nearly worthless, it still would not be such a big deal.
The point is that LP has to be something else than ISK. There is no point in having several currencies serving the same function. The point of LP, is that it puts a value on the time you have invested in doing missions for that specific corporation. ISK puts a value to any activity you've been doing to increase your wealth in the game. If items in the loyalty point store are supposed to be bought and sold off the open market as any other item in the game anyway, it's better to remove the LP all together and only give ISK and standing increase for doing missions. I'm not arguing for or against the "reward" system here, I'm just saying that there is no point to the LP currency if it is to be directly converted to ISK anyway. That's just doing things more complicated than necessary.
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Cole Phelps Instead, remove the ISK cost of all items, and increase the LP cost. Then these items will always be a reward for the faithful mission-runner.
So, you want to REMOVE yet another ISK sink ? One of the larger ones, I might add ? Do you like the idea of inflation so much ?
What are you talking about? I'm not saying that there should be done anything with the prices in the LP store, just that ISK cost should be converted to more LP cost. Is it anything such a change will do, it's certainly not increase inflation, as these items will be more tied to the act of running missions, and less to market specualtion than it is now.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:41:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Akita T on 05/06/2011 01:46:29
Originally by: Roh Voleto if... I don't know... Agents would make you individual offers to "reward you" for your loyalty.
That's how it used to work, and people cheered loudly when that crap was over and the LP shop put in place instead.
Quote: It is nothing but tedium, however, if converting LP means making a spreadsheet for dozens of items, or risking money.
Because getting the LP in the first place is not tedious at all? And because eyeballing the markets for a very rough LP conversion rate of the items you are about to click to purchase is really so much work ?
Originally by: Cole Phelps I'm not arguing for or against the "reward" system here, I'm just saying that there is no point to the LP currency if it is to be directly converted to ISK anyway.
So now all of a sudden you no longer care about conversion rate, or what else are you saying ? There are plenty of items that can only be obtained from an LP store. Nobody forces you to buy +X learning implants, for instance.
Quote: What are you talking about? I'm not saying that there should be done anything with the prices in the LP store, just that ISK cost should be converted to more LP cost.Is it anything such a change will do, it's certainly not increase inflation
The LP shop "eats up" both LP and ISK. The ISK you pay to the LP shop is destroyed. The LP shop is an ISK sink. Right now, there are very few ISK sinks left in the game, and the LP shop is one of the larger ones, total ISK volume speaking. Reducing the ISK cost of items in the LP shop reduces the magnitude of an ISK sink. Removing the ISK cost altogether removes the ISK sink altogether. Less of an ISK sink -> more ISK -> inflation. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:56:00 -
[21]
You are missing the fact that the market is based off of supply and demand. If the supply is very high (and the desire to sell is also high), it can push the price of an item below its production cost. Furthermore, some people in the market have superior methods of manufacture - such as purchasing BPCs from the LP store with LP, tags, and ISK. This provides a better deal in the end, and can push the prices below the "ISK+LP" offers for raw modules/ships.
I think there's a couple of problems with LP stores, but far and away the most egregious one is that frigate and cruiser modules require huge amounts of tags. These tags have an NPC buy order price, and that puts an effective limit on how cheaply someone can sell the LP store reward. This means that some frigate modules really can't sell for below 50-60M ISK.
Anyway, the first change I'd make is lowering the tag amounts... the second is increasing the tag supply.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:00:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 02:01:37
Originally by: Akita T
Because getting the LP in the first place is not tedious at all? And because eyeballing the markets for a very rough LP conversion rate of the items you are about to click to purchase is really so much work ?
Exactly. It's a matter of different play styles. I enjoy running missions. It is soothing and relaxing, yet challenging enough to keep me awake and my mind occupied. I don't like investing too much work in the market, though. I understand that it is the source of all "fun" and "value" in EVE, but too much of it and it reaches my "work" threshold. I could do the exact same things, with the same amount of effort, and earn Euro instead of EVE ISK.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Roh Voleto Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 02:01:37
Originally by: Akita T
Because getting the LP in the first place is not tedious at all? And because eyeballing the markets for a very rough LP conversion rate of the items you are about to click to purchase is really so much work ?
Exactly. It's a matter of different play styles. I enjoy running missions. It is soothing and relaxing, yet challenging enough to keep me awake and my mind occupied. I don't like investing too much work in the market, though. I understand that it is the source of all "fun" and "value" in EVE, but too much of it and it reaches my "work" threshold. I could do the exact same things, with the same amount of effort, and earn Euro instead of EVE ISK.
Do I hear a "Gimme free EVE time for my relaxed mission running" hum in the back of your ceering words? -- Thanks CCP for cu |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:05:00 -
[24]
Looking over these comments the only conclusion I can come to is making LP store items worth LP points and only LP points.
As soon as you require isk or tags (or any other item that can be purchased in market) along with the LP points, the item in the LP store now has a market "competitor."
My point is that the "reward" should be in accordance with the effort you put into running the missions...not what additional isk or items you may have as well, or may need to purchase in order to aquire the items in LP stores.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:08:00 -
[25]
So then, why not scrap the whole LP concept and ask for the MISSIONS to simply hand you an item as bonus instead ? _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:12:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Akita T So then, why not scrap the whole LP concept and ask for the MISSIONS to simply hand you an item as bonus instead ?
No one mission is worth a Navy Vexor. Maybe some low-level implants or small ammount of T1 ammo or BPC. You would still have to accumulate points of somekind for the big-ticket items.
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Cole Phelps
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Akita T
The LP shop "eats up" both LP and ISK. The ISK you pay to the LP shop is destroyed. The LP shop is an ISK sink. Right now, there are very few ISK sinks left in the game, and the LP shop is one of the larger ones, total ISK volume speaking. Reducing the ISK cost of items in the LP shop reduces the magnitude of an ISK sink. Removing the ISK cost altogether removes the ISK sink altogether. Less of an ISK sink -> more ISK -> contributes towards inflation.
Ok, fine, I understand what you're saying. this doesn't matter really. If people suddenly have more ISK -> prices will go up = inflation (as you say). I have no problem with that, no. The market regulates itself, so the ratio between generated/spent ISK and hours played will eventually be the same as before.
Since New Eden is a monetary union with no external trading partners, exchange rates between ISK and the other, non-existing currencies, don't play a part in this.
Right now LP is the currency being used when the mission-runner buys goods from NPC corporations. This is the only market in the game where LP is being used. Buy adding ISK to the price in addition to LP, it will make some of the investment into the item taken from elsewhere than running missions (like mining, pirating, trading) = less time spent running missions in order to aquire the item. This means more people than the harcore missioneer will be able to aquire these items faster. If this ISK was converted into LP instead, it would require more time spent running missions (higher LP cost). Since many of the people having other careers sees missions as a tedious and time consuming activity, less people would be able buy the items from the NPC corporations. The supply on the market would go down, and prices would go up. The mission runner will get his reward for actually running mission, but more importantly: The store is closer tied to capsuleer loyalty to that specific corporation.
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Sofa Raddis
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:16:00 -
[28]
You'd still need to check the market though.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:16:00 -
[29]
I don't see how you made that jump. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Snake Scofield
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:19:00 -
[30]
I thought LP points were just a side bonus. A little something to make you happy. Kind of like I did the mission for the isk but I also got this.
Maybe they should change the mission text to:
Reward : 5million isk + 1 million isk worth of LP.
Reward : 4000 LP, oh and you also get some isk.
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