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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.06 00:58:00 -
[1]
Character Details at eveboard Performance audit link
Apologies but this bond has already been filled in-game
Introduction
Good evening MD friends, strangers and not-so-friends I'm raising 35 billion isk in a 3-month bond for my Jita station trading. The bond will pay 15% interest per month with an additional final bonus if performance is excellent.
To [re-]introduce myself - I am an Objectivist and in-game I play as a Jita station trader. I find markets fascinating and enjoy my trading very much - I'm also a big believer in free-market capitalism and a huge fan of Ayn Rand.
I'm continuing to build my trading and market knowledge and have done some good work with a friend to build quite a sophisticated Jita trading spreadsheet. I'm planning to maintain just one character over the life of this bond, and to remain in Jita. I will be expanding into contract markets in Jita as well.
Outline
35 bil bond 3 month duration 15% monthly interest Purpose - Jita station trading
Past Loans
1. 750mil - 1 bil repaid, VV audited 2. 1bil - 1.3 bil repaid. Varo Jan audited. 3. 2bil - 2.62 bil repaid.. Bond repayment was late, 1.6 bil repaid as compensation for total 4.22 bil repayment. Audited by Lord Arbalest. 4. 4bil - 7.2 bil repaid over 3 months, of which 1.4 bil was a bonus payment. Audited by VV. 5. 16bil - 23.95 billion repaid over 3 months, of which 800 million was a bonus payment
Audits
5 previous audits, viewable in the links above.
Failed Bond
Bond 3 failed due to computer malfunction and was repaid 7 months later. A compensation offer and apology was accepted by my investors.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.06 01:00:00 -
[2]
Accounting and Performance
All accounts information has been transferred to a google docs spreadsheet
Balance Sheet - shows assets and liabilities with a final figure for capital [my net value]
Income Statement - a very imperfect statement as there is no way to easily calculate the cost of sales and therefore determining profit, although I hope to make progress on this area in the next few months
Daily Trade Chart - a graph of daily purchases and sales by isk value, showing 3 months of data sourced from EVEWalletAware
Markets - a basic list of purchases and sales in my leading 68 markets for the 3 months of March/April/May - again, no profit shown as I cannot easily calculate the cost of sales
There are also other tabs on there including a cost budget, contracts account, expense account and other performance indicators and accounts that are under construction.
These accounts are not fully accurate yet as I am not in any way trained in accounting - however I am satisfied that they represent a reasonable and accurate figure of my trading activities, and the independent performance audit by VV reflected the major turnover and asset increase values.
Independent performance audit by Vaerah Vahrokha is here
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.06 01:03:00 -
[3]
Investor List
John Galt - 5 billion Oxigun - 10 billion Strrog - 2.5 billion Eventurer - 5 billion Hian Yammamotto - 1 billion Saidin Thor - 1 billion Hideo Mazatsuki - 300 million Lucius Arcturus - 5 billion Cista2 - 2 billion Vaerah Vahrokha - 1 billion Khanid Voltar - 1.2 billion Thrakster - 1 billion Ethan - 200 million
Please note that due to an administration error the actual value sums to 35.2 billion rather than 35 billion
Payment Schedule
All payments are being changed to the last day of the calendar month to help with accounting clarity
First payment - 15% on Thursday June 30th Second Payment - 15% on Sunday July 31st Final Payment - 15% + Principal + any bonus on Wednesday 31st August
Please note that investors are free to withdraw their isk at any time without charge - there may be 1-2 days of delay depending on liquidity
This investment is not open to anyone who scams on MD - isk will be politely returned to the investor in such an eventuality
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Countesss
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Posted - 2011.06.06 01:20:00 -
[4]
Rep grind scam incoming!
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Mu-Shi Ai
The Chrysalis Group
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Posted - 2011.06.06 01:29:00 -
[5]
Wasn't this bond for a mere 15bn just yesterday?
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.06 01:34:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mu-Shi Ai Wasn't this bond for a mere 15bn just yesterday?
That bond was closed down and repaid yesterday after 3 months of operation. This is a new and different bond launch.
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TomHorn
Caldari Waffen Foreign Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.06 01:36:00 -
[7]
I know your stickler for how things work here at the MD liberty and you try to prevent scams.
How much collaterall have you handed over to trusted 3rd party of the md elite to protect investors
TH
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Countesss
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Posted - 2011.06.06 01:38:00 -
[8]
This smells like a scam. Why double the size instead of growing your own capital and using that. If you can pay 2.25b interest a month I bet you are making a lot more then that. So you don't even need the money from the bonds. You're just rep grinding for a scam.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.06 01:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: TomHorn I know your stickler for how things work here at the MD liberty and you try to prevent scams.
How much collaterall have you handed over to trusted 3rd party of the md elite to protect investors
TH
This is not a collateralised bond, so the good MD Elite folk are going to have to sit this one out.
For security, the best safeguard is VV's performance audit which confirms independently that my turnover is above 200 billion isk a month in sales and that my trading is both profitable and expanding well.
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.06.06 01:44:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Raid''En on 06/06/2011 01:44:19 i do'nt get it ; if bond is already filled ingame why putting that much infos ? no post have edit tag, meaning it was written like this directly, and that you didn't found investissors after, but before. it makes no sense.
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Countesss
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Posted - 2011.06.06 01:44:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
For security, the best safeguard is VV's performance audit which confirms independently that my turnover is above 200 billion isk a month in sales and that my trading is both profitable and expanding well.
Great 200b turnover and why are you looking for public money exactly when you can keep all the profits and not have to pay out interest? which would be 5.25b a month.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.06 01:55:00 -
[12]
The point of this bond is to keep relentlessly expanding my trade operation. There are single markets in Jita 4-4 that can swallow the entire 35 bil in a couple of days - in order to break upwards into the next higher level of markets, I am increasing the level of public finance while simultaneously building my own personal capital.
I sent out a memo to potential investors in-game who arranged their investments privately. The bond is already written up because it was meant to be launched last night, however there were software issues with the auditing that delayed it so I stored in on a word document.
The level of detail given is necessary to run the company - accounts can be fun once you make friends with them
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Daniel Torro
Minmatar Production N Destruction INC.
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Posted - 2011.06.06 02:02:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Countesss
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
For security, the best safeguard is VV's performance audit which confirms independently that my turnover is above 200 billion isk a month in sales and that my trading is both profitable and expanding well.
Great 200b turnover and why are you looking for public money exactly when you can keep all the profits and not have to pay out interest? which would be 5.25b a month.
Isn't that kinda rhetorical?
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TomHorn
Caldari Waffen Foreign Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.06 02:07:00 -
[14]
Edited by: TomHorn on 06/06/2011 02:15:24 Breaking the rules Liberty , rules that you like to insist on for the rest of us.
Personally i dont think this is a scam. But like most things only time will tell.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.06 02:09:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 06/06/2011 02:13:07
It's late here and I'm going to catch a few hours more sleep - I've updated the 11.3 billion I've already received. Investors, please post up if/when isk is sent and I will confirm tomorrow after logging on.
Flame away guys! This is the MD
Edit: @Tomhorn - Interestingly enough, I'm not much of an advocate of 3rd-party collateral - see my cricitism of Cosmoray's final bond/scam attempt. My main concern is seeing information released and thorough audits and question-answering by investees. For my own part, I did get a full performance audit posted up just hours ago, although it was placed in the closing phase of my last bond.
I will also be happy to answer all questions/concerns when I get back tomorrow
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Jullian Valdexron
Gallente Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet
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Posted - 2011.06.06 02:19:00 -
[16]
looks legit Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet |
Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.06.06 02:31:00 -
[17]
Best of luck LE ___ iCandy Bonds
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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.06.06 02:40:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
For security, the best safeguard is VV's performance audit which confirms independently that my turnover is above 200 billion isk a month in sales and that my trading is both profitable and expanding well.
Audits only tells you what someone did in the past, and can never tell if someone is going to scam in the Future. Audits offer zero security.
BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange |
Khanid Voltar
Night's Dawn Investment Fund
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Posted - 2011.06.06 05:42:00 -
[19]
isk sent
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.06 06:20:00 -
[20]
1B ISK sent.
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
For security, the best safeguard is VV's performance audit which confirms independently that my turnover is above 200 billion isk a month in sales and that my trading is both profitable and expanding well.
Let's make it clear for the 10000000000000000000th time. The performance audit is neither a security claim nor a safeguard. It's an API dump plus some math. Like the other audits it cannot insure you won't scam. It brings information, not security, not safeguard.
I am going to invest 1B in this and I consider it 1 lost billion exactly like I consider my ship as already lost when I undock, exactly like I consider my RL money lost when I start a RL trade.
If I get the money / ship / RL money back and intact then it's a welcome surprise.
Those who invest with any other kind of mindset should stop investing now.
Also, and I repeat myself once again, those who will invest because my audit gives them a *warm safety feeling*, are idiots awaiting to lose their money.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
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Posted - 2011.06.06 08:36:00 -
[21]
2 bn isk sent. ----------------------- "Signatures" trade chatroom / Universal Railways |
Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.06 09:18:00 -
[22]
Thank-you to everyone who has sent me their isk so far - I've updated the investor list accordingly.
Also, I wish to clarify the following statement
Originally by: Liberty Eternal For security, the best safeguard is VV's performance audit which confirms independently that my turnover is above 200 billion isk a month in sales and that my trading is both profitable and expanding well.
Note that I stated that this is a safeguard, not a guarantee of security. It's my personal opinion that it is better to know what a person has been doing in-game and that people can make better objective decisions if they know this information.
However, opinions differ on this subject - I acknowledge that as I always have in the past - and some people think audits add no security or even claim that audits are a security liability. My own bond design represents my own philosophy, but in no way can an audit be considered a guarantee of security and also, no auditor is able to make a judgement on whether a person has the intention to scam or not.
Likely this controversy can and will rage on in other threads, but both sides of the argument have been stated here now so there is no need to get into it once again here - suffice to say that people as always must consider the full range of arguments and then make their own minds up
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.06.06 11:19:00 -
[23]
A few questions re: the figures from your previous bond:
Your NAV was roughly 16bil at the start of the bond and only increased by 4bil during the first two months (based on VV's figure for the 4th of May). It then increased by 10bil during the month in which you had the performance audit done. Firstly, have I got the figures right or did I miss something? Secondly, can you account for the huge difference in profitability for the different periods? A suspicious/paranoid mind might wonder whether the third month activity was staged to give the impression of greater activity than was actually the case in order to support a request to more than double your public debt.
Secondly, how did you arrive at the 35bil figure for this bond? On the basis of the last three months profits it looks like roughly what you could expect to earn in 6 months of trading. Relative to earnings that would be quite a nice haul in the event of a scam.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.06 12:02:00 -
[24]
Originally by: RAW23 A few questions re: the figures from your previous bond:
Your NAV was roughly 16bil at the start of the bond and only increased by 4bil during the first two months (based on VV's figure for the 4th of May). It then increased by 10bil during the month in which you had the performance audit done. Firstly, have I got the figures right or did I miss something? Secondly, can you account for the huge difference in profitability for the different periods? A suspicious/paranoid mind might wonder whether the third month activity was staged to give the impression of greater activity than was actually the case in order to support a request to more than double your public debt.
It's about right - as I mentioned in my reports on the last bond thread, it was mainly high expenses and a lack of game-time in March that suppressed the opening net profit. Gross profit was quite high - however, expenses included things such as charity/philanthropy, investments in friends which tied down capital, a courier scam that took nearly 2 billion off the April profitability, and several billion in other expenses such as messing around putting a video together with some people, and constructing a jita trading database with a friend.
Another factor is that over the course of the bond, I tend to acquire a gradually building stockpile of surplus goods which are not really liquidated until near the end - hence it's not easy to calculate the profit based on cost of sales.
Also, quite crucially, the database I referred to was largely completed in early May and this lead to a surge in profitability. It's a very good database and made me billions of relatively easy isk in May by identifying opportunities I would otherwise have missed.
All these factors together lead to a bond trading style in which the first month consisted of slow trade and research, the second consisted of large expenses, and the third consisted of "break-through" trading - also, I trade as much for learning and fun as for profit.
Originally by: RAW23 Secondly, how did you arrive at the 35bil figure for this bond? On the basis of the last three months profits it looks like roughly what you could expect to earn in 6 months of trading. Relative to earnings that would be quite a nice haul in the event of a scam.
I got to this figure because during the last bond I was offered around 20 billion isk extra to take on the spot if I wanted - I therefore took the current figure [16 bil] and added roughly the 20 bil extra that people had already asked to invest. I actually received around 50 billion isk of offers for this current bond so I'm not expanding as fast as I theoretically could if I wished to put my foot down hard on the accelerator. Also, while it may sound a little rhetorical, if I was running a scam I would presumably have tried to hoover up every last isk that was offered to me, which I didn't even try to do at all.
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Jordus Melicia
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Posted - 2011.06.06 14:18:00 -
[25]
Scam incoming, cya in 3 months
silly lemmings, i scam for a mere 2b, then every1 gets on the train, brock then you, haha i always knew i had lots of fans in here
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.06 14:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jordus Melicia Scam incoming, cya in 3 months
silly lemmings, i scam for a mere 2b, then every1 gets on the train, brock then you, haha i always knew i had lots of fans in here
heh, wow, you think a lot of yourself. It's not like MD hasn't been scammed since the dawn of Eve....
To Liberty, how come you are investing in others, namely me, when you are looking for investments yourself, and at a higher interest rate than I offered you. I suspect you were just being nice to me?
Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.06 15:05:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
To Liberty, how come you are investing in others, namely me, when you are looking for investments yourself, and at a higher interest rate than I offered you. I suspect you were just being nice to me?
Friends ask me to make investments for them so I'm trying to acquire decent bonds and IPOs, which are few and far between. It's also the reason why your investment doesn't show on my balance sheet.
Currently there has been so little to invest in that we have just handled it informally, but if I find some more good offerings then I will post up and start a thread outlining the fund and its members, terms etc.
However I've been trying for nearly 2 months to find investments to put isk into and found very few indeed
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Loraine Gess
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Posted - 2011.06.06 16:35:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
I got to this figure because during the last bond I was offered around 20 billion isk extra to take on the spot if I wanted - I therefore took the current figure [16 bil] and added roughly the 20 bil extra that people had already asked to invest. I actually received around 50 billion isk of offers for this current bond so I'm not expanding as fast as I theoretically could if I wished to put my foot down hard on the accelerator. Also, while it may sound a little rhetorical, if I was running a scam I would presumably have tried to hoover up every last isk that was offered to me, which I didn't even try to do at all.
This is exactly what I would do, followed by this exact post, followed by one more blowout bond, followed by the take, complete with pictures and testimony and oodles of isk
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Myra2007
Millstone Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.06 16:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal Also, while it may sound a little rhetorical, if I was running a scam I would presumably have tried to hoover up every last isk that was offered to me, which I didn't even try to do at all.
More like intellectually dishonest/disingenuous tbh. --
Originally by: CCP Elais
It was a great Frankenstein moment [...] to see the forum [...] come alive.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.06 17:01:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Loraine Gess This is exactly what I would do, followed by this exact post, followed by one more blowout bond, followed by the take, complete with pictures and testimony and oodles of isk
Quoted for reference. Thanks
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