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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
forestwho
Foonfleet Investment Banking
30
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Posted - 2012.09.09 21:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
A quicky today. Just to keep thinking about the dynamic aspects of 0.0 politics.
What has created this current situation. The neglection of the tech whoring has created this current 0.0 stalemate. A new NC if ppl still remember those. Something is fundementaly wrong with this and how it somehow gets created time after time. Its a long term thing that forms over a long period of time. Some could argue that 0.0 policts are decided by the people. That is true... but the game mechanics have an affect on the decisions. This is where the problem lies somewhere. I dont know ether. Im not saying tech is wrong. Im not moaning about tech here. Im saying here that there is a fundamental error in the game mechanics that leads somehow to 0.0 stalemates.
This problem makes this game not so fun as it could be. Eve is a sandbox game but it could be aloooot better. People simply get bored sooner or later. Ppl have different explore rates about eve mechanics. Some ppl have seen it all in a year or 2, others are still around exploring other aspects 6 yrs later. Im sure ccp is familiar with the butterfly affect and how the social aspect of corporations works on newer people that are joining such corporations. What if the vets are bored? Like a cardhouse it collapses. You could ague that this is the natural way of again corporations. The importance lies in the speed vets get created and the speed they leave (for good). I am predicting that if this winter nothing interesting happends in 0.0 politics the eve user will be stable or slowly decreasing.
Just my 2 cents,
ps: for the trolls again:Im saying here that there is a fundamental error in the game mechanics that leads somehow to 0.0 stalemates. |
Karn Dulake
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
840
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Posted - 2012.09.09 21:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
The only problem with Nullsec is that its favourite colour is blue. I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
Yokai Mitsuhide
Exiled Mining
2321
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Posted - 2012.09.09 21:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Karn Dulake wrote:The only problem with Nullsec is that its favourite colour is blue.
This ^^ |
James 315
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2697
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Posted - 2012.09.09 21:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
What's with the "[stalemate]" tag in the thread title?
Also, is it really a stalemate when CFC/HBC's enemies keep losing regions?
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ MinerBumping.com -½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½Now one of the most popular blogs in EVE. Find out why! |
John Rando
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
1
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Posted - 2012.09.09 21:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
I honestly don't know what stalemate you're talking about, there's always some sort of war going on somewhere. |
Brooks Puuntai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
728
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Posted - 2012.09.09 21:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nullsec always goes in cycles. First there was BOB(that I can remember) then NC now CFC. While I don't disagree with your point, however this isn't something that is new, nor relatively a bad thing. |
Cutter Isaacson
Quantum Reality R n D GREATER ITAMO MAFIA
1113
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Posted - 2012.09.09 22:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
forestwho wrote:A quicky today. Just to keep thinking about the dynamic aspects of 0.0 politics.
What has created this current situation. The neglection of the tech whoring has created this current 0.0 stalemate. A new NC if ppl still remember those. Something is fundementaly wrong with this and how it somehow gets created time after time. Its a long term thing that forms over a long period of time. Some could argue that 0.0 policts are decided by the people. That is true... but the game mechanics have an affect on the decisions. This is where the problem lies somewhere. I dont know ether. Im not saying tech is wrong. Im not moaning about tech here. Im saying here that there is a fundamental error in the game mechanics that leads somehow to 0.0 stalemates.
This problem makes this game not so fun as it could be. Eve is a sandbox game but it could be aloooot better. People simply get bored sooner or later. Ppl have different explore rates about eve mechanics. Some ppl have seen it all in a year or 2, others are still around exploring other aspects 6 yrs later. Im sure ccp is familiar with the butterfly affect and how the social aspect of corporations works on newer people that are joining such corporations. What if the vets are bored? Like a cardhouse it collapses. You could ague that this is the natural way of again corporations. The importance lies in the speed vets get created and the speed they leave (for good). I am predicting that if this winter nothing interesting happends in 0.0 politics the eve user will be stable or slowly decreasing.
Just my 2 cents,
ps: for the trolls again:Im saying here that there is a fundamental error in the game mechanics that leads somehow to 0.0 stalemates.
I think what we are seeing is not so much a failure of the game mechanics, but more a function of societal structures. Given the complexities of survival and growth in the 0.0 regions, and taking in to account both internal (distribution and size of resources) and external (desirability of resources by outside parties) influences, the probability of any or all groups of 0.0 inhabitants forming a stable and self defending social structure is quite high.
Any changes rendered by truly external forces, in this case CCP changing mechanics etc, would only serve to destabilise those structures for a short time. This is because, if left undisturbed by in game influences for a suitable amount of time, any large group will eventually become responsive enough to adapt almost instantly to even the most severe changes in the mechanics. The only thing that will effectively serve to disrupt such a societal structure is the invasion of an opposing structure.
Historically Goonswarm have already proven what it takes to destabilise a large group. They entered the game with a completely different mindset and overall attitude to the one that prevailed at the time. They already had a reasonably coherent societal structure of their own and used this to their advantage. In simple terms, they brought chaos to order, they upset the balance in a way the 0.0 society of the time could not adapt to quickly enough.
Thus it is not a change in the mechanics that is required, but rather a change in the approach and mindset of people outside of the current 0.0 society. People need to think outside the box again.
As another mad bald man once said
Morpheus wrote: Free your mind
I'm trying to repair my Hyperdrive, this is the maintenance hatch. Now stop asking silly questions and pass me the Hydrospanner. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4568
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Posted - 2012.09.09 22:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
the sheer eloquence please leave |
Methesda
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
24
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Posted - 2012.09.09 22:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Neglection.
Great word. Always impressed when people take the approriate word, that would have been absolutely fine as is, then add needless letters to it.
To be honest, I don't really see that there is any problem with there being a 'stalemate', although others have pointed out that there isn't one. Stalemates are at best temporary states, and it's not like a stalemate is a reflection of the lack of activity on the fronts. |
Brooks Puuntai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
728
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Posted - 2012.09.09 22:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Also having most of 0.0 in constant motion would cause havoc on the T2 market. Periods of stability or I guess in your mind stagnation is actually good. |
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1567
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Posted - 2012.09.09 22:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
The problem is human nature. As EVE's Darwinian model of "survival of the fittest' plays out, it is inevitable that more casual, less organized, weaker organizations constantly in conflict with their surroundings are eliminated and replaced by stable groups that are best adapted to their ecosystem (in this case; mechanics). The Wild West was eventually colonized and tamed, Europe went from the cradle of bloodshed and warfare to now moving towards a single pacifist union. EVE is the same way - new technologies (TS, jabber, forums, logistics, metagaming) are developed and incorporated by big alliances, the ones who don't find themselves in the dustbin of history.
Not just EVE alliances, but organic life in general continues to change and adapt until finally reaching an equilibrium with the ecosystem around it. Earth however is in constant change, with volcanoes, atmospheric changes, sunspot activity, tectonic drift and the occasional meteor endlessly disrupting life's sought-after equilibrium. EVE's 'ecosystem' however is locked in stone, and it is inevitable that a static hegemony will be put in place. Theoretically, it will reach a point where this Ruling Alliance or Coalition will even achieve stability in replenishing player subs.
The only way to prevent stagnation in EVE is to continue adding new changes in the system, aka bnew content. Things like supercap adjustments certainly changed things afterwards (effectively ending the Second Catch War, triggering the war on White Noise, etc.), but those are relatively minor changes over the course of three years, which nullsec has received few if any iterations on half-done content released over three years ago. |
Volar Kang
Quartz Research Strategic Alliance
37
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
How big an impact do you feel that PLEX has had on this issue? Do you feel it encouraged more stagnation as null alliances focused on making money to buy plex to play for free. Could it be said that holding null space is now more important since it means you could play the game for free if you develope your space rather than engage in warfare that could result in lost systems? |
Ghazu
144
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Posted - 2012.09.10 01:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
Volar Kang wrote:How big an impact do you feel that PLEX has had on this issue? Do you feel it encouraged more stagnation as null alliances focused on making money to buy plex to play for free. Could it be said that holding null space is now more important since it means you could play the game for free if you develope your space rather than engage in warfare that could result in lost systems? Is that you dumber 2nd time around? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=151114 |
Pandora Star1494
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.09.10 01:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Also having most of 0.0 in constant motion would cause havoc on the T2 market. Periods of stability or I guess in your mind stagnation is actually good.
Tell OTEC that. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1577
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 02:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Volar Kang wrote:How big an impact do you feel that PLEX has had on this issue? Do you feel it encouraged more stagnation as null alliances focused on making money to buy plex to play for free. Could it be said that holding null space is now more important since it means you could play the game for free if you develope your space rather than engage in warfare that could result in lost systems? It's a complicated question, 0.0 alliances are the biggest purchasers but also (imho) the biggest sellers of PLEX (some people have bought Titans, etc). Considering that profit in the past has made less difference in an alliance's survivability (culture and motivation being a greater factor), I disagree that PLEX is as big a factor as you might think it is. Also keep in mind that if PLEX was removed, it would only be replaced by greater amounts of raw RMT |
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
72
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Posted - 2012.09.10 02:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Also we have new wave of eve quits.. New content is neede badly.. Dust can be huge pain. Ship rebalancing will be not enough eve just become boring and very time consuming game times changed. Sov mechanics is sick and fr very hardcore players.. I left sov wars some time ago coz its sooooo boring. Eve needs more dynamic if not .. Well ... |
Nariya Kentaya
Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking
211
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Posted - 2012.09.10 03:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Also having most of 0.0 in constant motion would cause havoc on the T2 market. Periods of stability or I guess in your mind stagnation is actually good. Empires rise Empires fall, Even the great British Empire, unriovaled for hundreds of years, fell when a ragtag group of farmers decided they would attack and fight for their outermost territory (North America) and allowed the Empires long-standing Enemy France, the opening they needed to win both their eternal war with britain (and america's revolutionary war, YEAH I SAID IT, france won the revolutionary war FOR america) |
adopt
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
411
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Posted - 2012.09.10 04:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
The stalemate is the quiet before the storm, once tribute/vale/geminate falls, their will be two fundamental power blocs, which will inevitably go to war, crushing one another until one of them rules them all... Shadoo > Always remember to fit Cynosural Field Generator I, have 450 Liquid Ozone in your cargo and convo a friendly Pandemic Legion member if you have a capital or super capital ship tackled.
FREE XOLVE ~ THE HERO TEST NEEDS |
Theodoric Darkwind
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
179
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Posted - 2012.09.10 04:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
John Rando wrote:I honestly don't know what stalemate you're talking about, there's always some sort of war going on somewhere.
^^ Just because you dont see the map shifting a lot doesn't mean things aren't going on. The last major map shift was the HBC taking Delve/Querious/PB, but just because we own the regions now doesn't mean its all quiet there. We have spent the last couple months defending our new regions from almost constant attacks from -A- & pets. Since its a defensive war you dont see much movement on the influence map, but you can certainly see it on killboards.
That and CFC is busy evicting NCDot from Tribute, and it looks like NCDot and SOLAR are now fighting over Geminate again.
If anything this summer has been the busiest in nullsec since the fall of the NC last year.
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Dersk
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
119
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Posted - 2012.09.10 04:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
forestwho wrote::Im saying here that there is a fundamental error in the game mechanics that leads somehow to 0.0 stalemates.
January of this year: http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/verite/20120101.png
Yesterday: http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/verite/20120909.png
I don't think stalemate means what you think it means. About the only people that haven't had significant changes in territory this year are the IRC, CVA, and the alliances to the east of stain (stainwagon? or are they now soco?). |
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Praxis Ginimic
Defensive Parameter The Mandalorians
18
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Posted - 2012.09.10 04:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Also having most of 0.0 in constant motion would cause havoc on the T2 market. Periods of stability or I guess in your mind stagnation is actually good. Empires rise Empires fall, Even the great British Empire, unriovaled for hundreds of years, fell when a ragtag group of farmers decided they would attack and fight for their outermost territory (North America) and allowed the Empires long-standing Enemy France, the opening they needed to win both their eternal war with britain (and america's revolutionary war, YEAH I SAID IT, france won the revolutionary war FOR america)
Not that it had a damn thing to do with null but props for actually knowing the history. You must not be American. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
98
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Posted - 2012.09.10 04:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
He just said that the American Revolution marked the beginning of the decline of the British Empire... |
Ghazu
146
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Posted - 2012.09.10 05:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Praxis Ginimic wrote:Nariya Kentaya wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Also having most of 0.0 in constant motion would cause havoc on the T2 market. Periods of stability or I guess in your mind stagnation is actually good. Empires rise Empires fall, Even the great British Empire, unriovaled for hundreds of years, fell when a ragtag group of farmers decided they would attack and fight for their outermost territory (North America) and allowed the Empires long-standing Enemy France, the opening they needed to win both their eternal war with britain (and america's revolutionary war, YEAH I SAID IT, france won the revolutionary war FOR america) Not that it had a damn thing to do with null but props for actually knowing the history. You must not be American. But to bring this into the discussion...how cool would it be to see all the renters form an alliance and take control for themselves
How cool would it be to see the renters actually start fleeting up and make themselves useful. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1725
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 05:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
Karn Dulake wrote:The only problem with Nullsec is that its favourite colour is blue.
Zing!!!!
He's right you know.
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William Walker
House Aratus Fatal Ascension
58
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Posted - 2012.09.10 06:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
It is just a cycle of starts and stops, like real life. |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians Tribal Band
1028
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Posted - 2012.09.10 06:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
HBC themselves are fighting several fronts at the same time and CFC are evicting NCdot. The north and the south are burning at the moment and you call it a stalemate?
Da fuq. quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
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Cede Forster
54
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Posted - 2012.09.10 07:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
forestwho wrote:ps: for the trolls again:Im saying here that there is a fundamental error in the game mechanics that leads somehow to 0.0 stalemates.
i see your "its the game mechanics fault" and raise you a "it is the human natures fault" |
Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
94
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Posted - 2012.09.10 09:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Cede Forster wrote:forestwho wrote:ps: for the trolls again:Im saying here that there is a fundamental error in the game mechanics that leads somehow to 0.0 stalemates. i see your "its the game mechanics fault" and raise you a "it is the human natures fault"
You seem to like that 'it is the human natures fault'.
Game mechanics should take into consideration human nature, otherwise they might not work as intended. |
Cede Forster
54
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Posted - 2012.09.10 09:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
Sabrina Solette wrote:Cede Forster wrote:forestwho wrote:ps: for the trolls again:Im saying here that there is a fundamental error in the game mechanics that leads somehow to 0.0 stalemates. i see your "its the game mechanics fault" and raise you a "it is the human natures fault" You seem to like that 'it is the human natures fault'. Game mechanics should take into consideration human nature, otherwise they might not work as intended.
mechanics are stones you throw in the way of human who then go on to circumvent it, i am sorry but that is how humans are, they want to win and if they can team up against somebody else, they will team up on somebody else
if you make any mechanic that gives you a bonus for not teaming up, they will split up, pretend to not team up, get the benefit of not teaming up and align their strategy to unofficially team up - just get over it already
it is not a question of game mechanics but of simple logic - how can you give an person a bonus for not cooperating? give it a try - show me a mechanic that would make people in 0.0 not strive to establish two big powerblocks |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4559
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Posted - 2012.09.10 09:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Also having most of 0.0 in constant motion would cause havoc on the T2 market. Periods of stability or I guess in your mind stagnation is actually good. Empires rise Empires fall, Even the great British Empire, unriovaled for hundreds of years, fell when a ragtag group of farmers decided they would attack and fight for their outermost territory (North America) and allowed the Empires long-standing Enemy France, the opening they needed to win both their eternal war with britain (and america's revolutionary war, YEAH I SAID IT, france won the revolutionary war FOR america)
Actually that was 150 years before the end of the British Empire. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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