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iskflakes
Magnets Inc.
45
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Posted - 2012.09.10 17:11:00 -
[61] - Quote
Judging by some of the comments here many of you believe we should live in some happy world where every ship is equally good regardless of cost.
Why are you all so against the idea that more expensive ships should beat cheaper ones in the right situation?
"Marlona Sky" wrote: And when the blob is the one with the bigger wallet?
Then you lose, and that's how it should be. Track your wealth with EVE Stats: https://ohheck.co.uk/EVEStats/home.php |
Lord Zim
1449
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Posted - 2012.09.10 17:13:00 -
[62] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:Judging by some of the comments here many of you believe we should live in some happy world where every ship is equally good regardless of cost. This is a dumbassed comment.
iskflakes wrote:Why are you all so against the idea that more expensive ships should beat cheaper ones in the right situation? This is also a dumbassed comment.
iskflakes wrote:"Marlona Sky" wrote: And when the blob is the one with the bigger wallet?
Then you lose, and that's how it should be. As is this.
It's almost like we haven't learned, multiple times, that cost is not a good balancing factor. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1653
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Posted - 2012.09.10 17:20:00 -
[63] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Global politics in the real world tend towards stalemates...or perhaps "equilibrium" is a better term. I'm not at all surprised if 0.0 trends that direction. Historically it has. Pre-Dominion and Pre-Crucible were some of the most stagnant times in EVE history from a nullsec perspective. Post-Dominion and Post-Crucible were some of the most cataclysmic periods in 0.0 history. Much like how technological progress creates changes in the global order, the best way to shake up nullsec is to simply add content to it. |
Lord Zim
1449
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Posted - 2012.09.10 17:38:00 -
[64] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Global politics in the real world tend towards stalemates...or perhaps "equilibrium" is a better term. I'm not at all surprised if 0.0 trends that direction. Historically it has. Pre-Dominion and Pre-Crucible were some of the most stagnant times in EVE history from a nullsec perspective. Post-Dominion and Post-Crucible were some of the most cataclysmic periods in 0.0 history. Much like how technological progress creates changes in the global order, the best way to shake up nullsec is to simply add content to it. Content such as "hey look at these sov bills you've set to autopay but which will drop sov because there's not enough money in the wallet WITHOUT WARNING YOU"? :v: |
iskflakes
Magnets Inc.
45
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Posted - 2012.09.10 17:40:00 -
[65] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:
It's almost like we haven't learned, multiple times, that cost is not a good balancing factor.
It's not my fault you're poor.
Cost should be the most significant balancing factor, role should be the second most important. The split should be 60:40 or so. The problem right now is 10 destroyers will kill a capital ship worth billions, which makes no sense to me. Track your wealth with EVE Stats: https://ohheck.co.uk/EVEStats/home.php |
Lord Zim
1449
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Posted - 2012.09.10 17:41:00 -
[66] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:Lord Zim wrote:
It's almost like we haven't learned, multiple times, that cost is not a good balancing factor.
It's not my fault you're poor. Aaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
iskflakes wrote:Cost should be the most significant balancing factor, role should be the second most important. The split should be 60:40 or so. The problem right now is 10 destroyers will kill a capital ship worth billions, which makes no sense to me. Suck on a bowl of dicks and get the **** out. You're not getting the blaptitans back. |
iskflakes
Magnets Inc.
45
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Posted - 2012.09.10 17:43:00 -
[67] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: Suck on a bowl of dicks and get the **** out. You're not getting the blaptitans back.
It's refreshing to see a goon alt who engages in the discussion rather than spewing Ad-hominem attacks until he gets his way.
You have yet to provide a sensible reason why cost should NOT be a balancing factor. Track your wealth with EVE Stats: https://ohheck.co.uk/EVEStats/home.php |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1145
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Posted - 2012.09.10 17:52:00 -
[68] - Quote
Posting in a bad analogy and bad history lesson thread that was already won in the first reply.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Lord Zim
1450
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Posted - 2012.09.10 17:58:00 -
[69] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:You have yet to provide a sensible reason why cost should NOT be a balancing factor. I've provided two, actually.
1) It's a ******** metric 2) We've had this discussion before, with titans. Everyone who has more than two braincells to rub together will tell you that this is, has been, and will continue to be a bad way to balance things. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1653
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Posted - 2012.09.10 17:58:00 -
[70] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Global politics in the real world tend towards stalemates...or perhaps "equilibrium" is a better term. I'm not at all surprised if 0.0 trends that direction. Historically it has. Pre-Dominion and Pre-Crucible were some of the most stagnant times in EVE history from a nullsec perspective. Post-Dominion and Post-Crucible were some of the most cataclysmic periods in 0.0 history. Much like how technological progress creates changes in the global order, the best way to shake up nullsec is to simply add content to it. Content such as "hey look at these sov bills you've set to autopay but which will drop sov because there's not enough money in the wallet WITHOUT WARNING YOU"? :v: CCP still keeps on adding shiny new nerf 'content' to 0.0 yet is confused why new people aren't striking out into nullsec to experience the nerfs first hand good thing CSM7 managed devote one-eighth of the time they spent discussing the CSM7 white paper to dicussing minor things like industry and nullsec. Mighty generous of them, I'd say. |
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ISD Praetoxx
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
43
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Posted - 2012.09.10 18:18:00 -
[71] - Quote
Thread Cleaned
Please keep posts constructive and on topic. ISD Praetoxx Ensign Community Communication Liasons (CCLs) Interstellar Service Department |
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iskflakes
Magnets Inc.
46
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Posted - 2012.09.10 18:41:00 -
[72] - Quote
Thank you ISD Praetoxx.
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:CCP still keeps on adding shiny new nerf 'content' to 0.0 yet is confused why new people aren't striking out into nullsec to experience the nerfs first hand good thing CSM7 managed devote one-eighth of the time they spent discussing the CSM7 white paper to dicussing minor things like industry and nullsec. Mighty generous of them, I'd say.
I agree this is a big problem. This CSM has not paid much attention to nullsec -- the minutes were filled with ship balancing above anything else, which is important but less important than fixing nullsec. Hopefully they will at some point re-address the risk/reward balance of nullsec, highsec and lowsec properly.
How about implementing some alliance-wide bonuses based on how many systems you own? Or making nullsec industry the most profitable form of industry?
Both of those would drive conflict and break the stagnation. Track your wealth with EVE Stats: https://ohheck.co.uk/EVEStats/home.php |
Cede Forster
59
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Posted - 2012.09.10 18:52:00 -
[73] - Quote
what i am talking away from here so far:
Step 1: People other then me have all the SOV, i dont like it Step 2: If i try to take their SOV, they kick my ass Step 3: They only kick my ass because there are more of them Step 4: The reason why I can not have SOV is because there is no good way to counter the fact that they are more Step 5: It should be possible to counter numbers with more ISK Step 6: They also have more ISK Step 7: It should be easier to take SOV so i can take it from them before they can come with their numbers and ISK and ruin my day
so, here the reply from captain obvious: if you can take their sov easier, so can they, and they can do it even much better because there are even more of them and they have even more isk
leading then to
Step 8: Once i have the SOV, it should be hard to take it away from me
which conflicts with step 7 and the thread with the idea becomes a division by zero and implodes into a cloud of "ah crap, this wont work" |
Dain Highwind
State Protectorate Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.09.10 18:58:00 -
[74] - Quote
New features in the winter expansion.
"Alliances can only set 5 other alliances to +5 and 3 to +10, choose them wisely" |
Cede Forster
59
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Posted - 2012.09.10 19:01:00 -
[75] - Quote
Dain Highwind wrote:New features in the winter expansion.
"Alliances can only set 5 other alliances to +5 and 3 to +10, choose them wisely"
"weapons will automatically acquire locks and fire, jump drive will spontaneously fly you into enemy territory" |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1440
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Posted - 2012.09.10 19:03:00 -
[76] - Quote
Dain Highwind wrote:New features in the winter expansion.
"Alliances can only set 5 other alliances to +5 and 3 to +10, choose them wisely" That would be great. I guess the map will look even more filled with large blobs of a single color. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Jonah Gravenstein
1151
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Posted - 2012.09.10 19:25:00 -
[77] - Quote
Dain Highwind wrote:New features in the winter expansion.
"Alliances can only set 5 other alliances to +5 and 3 to +10, choose them wisely"
Simple workaround, absorb your allies into the alliances you can blue.
CCP can't patch stupid. |
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
125
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Posted - 2012.09.10 19:37:00 -
[78] - Quote
Meanwhile in Tribute, the stalemate continues... |
Cede Forster
63
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Posted - 2012.09.10 20:32:00 -
[79] - Quote
Dragon Outlaw wrote:Meanwhile in Tribute, the stalemate continues...
people are so upset about the stalemate, they started shooting each other, it is a stalemate of tremendous proportions |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1726
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Posted - 2012.09.10 20:54:00 -
[80] - Quote
Notes:
- The way things presently are in 0.0, I can get out there and spend weeks without seeing another soul. Beyond the "Great Wall of Carebear" and those camps maintained by slaves and renters to keep 0.0 as dead as it is, it's empty.
- This is supposed to be a game of combat and conflict, and what has always been the source of conflict?
Anybody?
Bueller? Bueller?
SCARCITY.
But those tech moons, and complexes, just keep spitting out resources, just like hisec (yet the people in 0.0 tell hisec to HTFU and that hisec should be nerfed - irony).
Limit those resources, any way suitable (like, the more you mine to create your superblobs the faster you run out of resources, the more rats you kill, the less of them, etc), and all of those people under the solidarity of hating hiseccers and gleefully killing anything non blue will be turning each others' guns on each other.
You want a REAL PVP game, support limited resources across the board.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1674
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Posted - 2012.09.10 20:57:00 -
[81] - Quote
yep no scarcity in tech moons, that's why tech is 200 isk a unit thanks for that great contrib, herzog |
HollyShocker 2inthestink
State War Academy Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2012.09.10 21:20:00 -
[82] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:The problem is human nature. As EVE's Darwinian model of "survival of the fittest' plays out, it is inevitable that more casual, less organized, weaker organizations constantly in conflict with their surroundings are eliminated and replaced by stable groups that are best adapted to their ecosystem (in this case; mechanics). The Wild West was eventually colonized and tamed, Europe went from the cradle of bloodshed and warfare to now moving towards a single pacifist union. EVE is the same way - new technologies (fleet setups, TS, jabber, forums, logistics, metagaming) are developed and incorporated by big alliances, the ones who don't find themselves in the dustbin of history.
Not just EVE alliances, but organic life in general continues to change and adapt until finally reaching an equilibrium with the ecosystem around it. Earth however is in constant change, with volcanoes, atmospheric changes, sunspot activity, tectonic drift and the occasional meteor endlessly disrupting life's sought-after equilibrium. EVE's 'ecosystem' however is locked in stone, and it is inevitable that a static hegemony will be put in place. Theoretically, it will reach a point where this Ruling Alliance or Coalition will even achieve stability in replenishing player subs.
The only way to prevent stagnation in EVE is to continue adding new changes in the system, aka new content. Things like supercap adjustments certainly changed things afterwards (effectively ending the Second Catch War, triggering the war on White Noise, etc.), but those are relatively minor changes over the course of three years, which nullsec has received few if any iterations on half-done content released over three years ago.
I think the ultimate solution would be to make EVE's resources shifting and more dynamic, ratting values, ladar/radar site drops, plexing, moon minerals, all slowly, gradually changed by the actions of other players in distant regions far away, and vice versa. Once rich regions could over the course of time dry up, spurring an exodus of a powerful alliance. A backwater might one day become an untapped goldmine, triggering conflict. CCP Grayscale has suggested something similar, a sort of 'ratting nerf projector' onto neighboring regions, but I feel it's too easily controlled, too easily incorporated into an ordered system.
There was no evolution of the modern man. Darwin was a fraud, so evolution theory is null
I do like the idea of shifting resources. SWG had this and it made the game more dynamic. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4659
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Posted - 2012.09.10 22:41:00 -
[83] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:Judging by some of the comments here many of you believe we should live in some happy world where every ship is equally good regardless of cost.
Why are you all so against the idea that more expensive ships should beat cheaper ones in the right situation?
Probably because the performance of a ship doesn't scale with its cost and it never has?
A blaster Vindicator can die to a couple of Tornadoes and an Arazu in the right circumstances. please leave |
Gun Gal
Dark Club
93
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Posted - 2012.09.11 00:03:00 -
[84] - Quote
interesting read, but OP has got it right, with almost all of null blued and in a huge criclejerk, it has gone stale, and once the cleanup is complete, goons will have won null for them and their friends, you can see the stagnation allready setting it, how?
but the increasing attacks on highsec, the only thing they cannot control, and the rest of you are like lemmings and flocking to and fro.
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Paul Oliver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1634
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Posted - 2012.09.11 00:34:00 -
[85] - Quote
Gun Gal wrote:interesting read, but OP has got it right, with almost all of null blued and in a huge criclejerk, it has gone stale, and once the cleanup is complete, goons will have won null for them and their friends, you can see the stagnation allready setting it, how?
but the increasing attacks on highsec, the only thing they cannot control, and the rest of you are like lemmings and flocking to and fro.
It will be interesting to see how, if at all, CCP deals with having these huge power blocs use their near unlimited resources farmed from nullsec to wreak havoc on the highsec population. Thing is as a new player I can't help but think maybe I've joined EVE too late, and that I'm basicly paying to endure EVE's endgame, a nullsec coalition that's become so powerful that they basicly take over the entire game and force out anyone who hasn't been playing long enough to afford to ride it out until the players in these null coalitions get bored and move on. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must undergo the fatigues of supporting it." - Thomas Paine |
Nariya Kentaya
Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking
213
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Posted - 2012.09.11 01:03:00 -
[86] - Quote
Anunzi wrote:Nariya Kentaya wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Also having most of 0.0 in constant motion would cause havoc on the T2 market. Periods of stability or I guess in your mind stagnation is actually good. Empires rise Empires fall, Even the great British Empire, unriovaled for hundreds of years, fell when a ragtag group of farmers decided they would attack and fight for their outermost territory (North America) and allowed the Empires long-standing Enemy France, the opening they needed to win both their eternal war with britain (and america's revolutionary war, YEAH I SAID IT, france won the revolutionary war FOR america) Erm. Pretty sure the British Empire lasted until the Second World War. The American war of independence was a sideshow at the time as far as the grand scheme of things was concerned, to Britain it was more profitable to protect India than the (at that time) poor and undeveloped American continent. To claim losing the American colonies caused the downfall of said Empire is not accurate. I try and start an amusing arguement, and all you smart little cookies have to come out of the woodwork and point out everywhere i was BS'ing it. Can't we just pretend for the sake of an arguement? I know the history, and i apologize for letting my BS get carried away and coming up with something so ridiclously far from historica fact.
But in all honesty, outside of WW1-WW2 i never had much interest in history, (aside from history involving great scientific advancements, like the italian renaissane and etc). Always preferred reading my astronomy and engineering texts during my history lectures in Primary School. |
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
125
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Posted - 2012.09.11 12:08:00 -
[87] - Quote
Cede Forster wrote:Dragon Outlaw wrote:Meanwhile in Tribute, the stalemate continues... people are so upset about the stalemate, they started shooting each other, it is a stalemate of tremendous proportions
This stalemate also looks like a pissing contest between Goons and Test? Who will win? |
William Walker
House Aratus Fatal Ascension
62
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Posted - 2012.09.11 13:17:00 -
[88] - Quote
Paul Oliver wrote:Gun Gal wrote:interesting read, but OP has got it right, with almost all of null blued and in a huge criclejerk, it has gone stale, and once the cleanup is complete, goons will have won null for them and their friends, you can see the stagnation allready setting it, how?
but the increasing attacks on highsec, the only thing they cannot control, and the rest of you are like lemmings and flocking to and fro.
It will be interesting to see how, if at all, CCP deals with having these huge power blocs use their near unlimited resources farmed from nullsec to wreak havoc on the highsec population. Thing is as a new player I can't help but think maybe I've joined EVE too late, and that I'm basicly paying to endure EVE's endgame, a nullsec coalition that's become so powerful that they basicly take over the entire game and force out anyone who hasn't been playing long enough to afford to ride it out until the players in said coalition get bored and move on. Heres hoping something is left to enjoy after they do.
Don't be ridiculous, boy. Highsec is disgusting. Keep it to yourself. We will carebear in the nullsec. |
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