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Hashur Vallen
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Posted - 2011.06.08 20:25:00 -
[1]
Is it better to make your own? Or buy off the market. Or a mixture of make what you can and buy the rest?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.08 21:13:00 -
[2]
You need to run the math every time, depending on BPC availability, stats and price, and on current material and finished T2 item price. There is no general/universal rule of what's better, it constantly changes, even during a single day, let alone on a large enough timescale. Any answer you get here other than this is going to be proven wrong just as much as right. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Hashur Vallen
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Posted - 2011.06.08 21:17:00 -
[3]
Thanks for the response Akita.... so there really is no escaping spreadsheets when you become a industrialist is there.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.08 21:35:00 -
[4]
Yup, no escape, the spreadsheet gods must get their papercut blood quota _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
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Posted - 2011.06.08 21:38:00 -
[5]
EVE was the only reason I downloaded and installed OpenOffice so I could use spreadsheets.
I buy a lot of BPC, as I can consume more of them than I can copy. It can cut into your profits, so you do have to account for that if you decide to buy them.
I've lost nearly 1 billion ISK so far this month on failed inventions which is another factor you have to account for.
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Hixxxy
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Posted - 2011.06.08 22:30:00 -
[6]
Hang on, i cant quite work out if your asking if its better to buy the BPCs or the T2 BPCs?
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Hashur Vallen
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Posted - 2011.06.08 22:33:00 -
[7]
Both.... :(
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Quazal Atreides
Gallente Amarr Institute of Science Eternus Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.08 22:41:00 -
[8]
personally i buy the t1 bpc en masse.. end up paying about 50/75k per t1 mod bpc.. so each invention cost (based on 1:2 successes) cost me 150k in bpc + datacoresx2 per success..
OBviously you have to work out A if you want to do the extra work, o rB can you buy the t2 bpc for less than the quick forumulae above.. Hell if you buy the t2 bpcs then you could use the 10 invention slots to copy 10 t1 bpo's to sell :) thus increasing income that offsets your t2 outgoing
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Hixxxy
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Posted - 2011.06.08 22:42:00 -
[9]
we use the corp wallet to buyt datacores, BPOs and run the POS. Decryptors are donated from our scanning guys.
All I really do is the invention, I guess the failed inventions need to be factored in. Even the -3ME T2 BPCs are sometimes unprofitable. But ive managed to make a small profit on quite a few of the -4 BPOs ive invented.
I once made a -6ME 10 run Ishtar BPC and it was a massive loss to make so I stuck it up on contract. Nobody would even touch it for half a mil for weeks.
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Quazal Atreides
Gallente Amarr Institute of Science Eternus Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.08 22:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hixxxy
All I really do is the invention, I guess the failed inventions need to be factored in.
Yep, this is one the key points when working spreadsheet/calculator for invention... either work it out exactly ie keep a chart of success/failures per ship type etc. or just use a guesstimate effert.. ie for me and mods its 44% or something.. so i jsut say 1 in 2 succesfull to keep maths simple... so on a ship that has 30% work on 1 in 3 or 3x the cost of he datacores.. that will gie you the real value of invention (its not how much it costs to invent.. but how much it costs per success the way i work the numbers)
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Seminole Sun
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Posted - 2011.06.09 00:08:00 -
[11]
Just wait till you realize that you have to factor in whether its better to do max run BPCs or 1 run BPCs... and then whether to use decryptors or not... I've joked with my brother that designing the eve industrialist spreadsheet should be the final exam for someone taking an advanced excel class... Just picturing things like PI and T2 production chain in your head can be difficult.
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clixor
Celluloid Gurus
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Posted - 2011.06.09 12:09:00 -
[12]
I don't see the problem, you know the 'average' cost to produce an t2 bpc taking all datacores, decryptors, lab costs etc. into consideration. And you know the potential profit from the final product.
If the t2 bpc is on sale for up to your cost than it's a nobrainer. If the t2 bpc is on sale for a bit higher than your cost and you still make a decent profit, than ok as well.
In reality however, a lot of t2 bpc on the market are -4, and, if not profitable at all, have such a slim margin that buying them is pointless unless you have depleted your stock and lines are sitting idle.
Even than, the risk of starting a job in advance for, say 5% overall profit, is high as market prices can drop below the profitability level.
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Seminole Sun
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: clixor I don't see the problem, you know the 'average' cost to produce an t2 bpc taking all datacores, decryptors, lab costs etc. into consideration. And you know the potential profit from the final product.
If the t2 bpc is on sale for up to your cost than it's a nobrainer. If the t2 bpc is on sale for a bit higher than your cost and you still make a decent profit, than ok as well.
In reality however, a lot of t2 bpc on the market are -4, and, if not profitable at all, have such a slim margin that buying them is pointless unless you have depleted your stock and lines are sitting idle.
Even than, the risk of starting a job in advance for, say 5% overall profit, is high as market prices can drop below the profitability level.
Factoring in time can be difficult.
As an example, take a Kronos BPC Assuming its developed with Test Reports (the most profitable transaction at present) it should take ~ $65million isk to get a success (for me at my skills). It will yield 2 runs that have material cost of ~550million and sell for ~$625million for a net gain of $150million isk.
But it probably took two weeks to do the copies and inventions (maybe more). So a "fair" transaction price is probably SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the $65million cost. Even at $120million, it's probably a good deal for a buyer.
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clixor
Celluloid Gurus
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Posted - 2011.06.09 22:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Seminole Sun
But it probably took two weeks to do the copies and inventions (maybe more). So a "fair" transaction price is probably SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the $65million cost. Even at $120million, it's probably a good deal for a buyer.
Well. you still should make a profit even at 120m if you produce from that. But try finding a -2 on contracts.
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Seminole Sun
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Posted - 2011.06.10 13:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: clixor
Originally by: Seminole Sun
But it probably took two weeks to do the copies and inventions (maybe more). So a "fair" transaction price is probably SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the $65million cost. Even at $120million, it's probably a good deal for a buyer.
Well. you still should make a profit even at 120m if you produce from that. But try finding a -2 on contracts.
It would sadden me if I saw a -4 Kronos BPC on contract. That would cost me $625.7 mil to manufacture and I could sell it for $624.1 mil.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.10 16:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hixxxy we use the corp wallet to buyt datacores, BPOs and run the POS. Decryptors are donated from our scanning guys.
All I really do is the invention, I guess the failed inventions need to be factored in. Even the -3ME T2 BPCs are sometimes unprofitable. But ive managed to make a small profit on quite a few of the -4 BPOs ive invented.
I once made a -6ME 10 run Ishtar BPC and it was a massive loss to make so I stuck it up on contract. Nobody would even touch it for half a mil for weeks.
Ouch!
I do factor in datacore cost to include what was consumed on the invention but also the average failure rate. So for a cruiser my build cost in includes 25.4 Starship and 25.4 Mechanical Engineering cores.
It is rather depressing to remove the datacore costs and see that a -4ME build suddenly starts to match the market rate... too many people don't factor in datacore costs imho.
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RC Denton
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Posted - 2011.06.10 23:01:00 -
[17]
Originally by: clixor I don't see the problem, you know the 'average' cost to produce an t2 bpc taking all datacores, decryptors, lab costs etc. into consideration. And you know the potential profit from the final product.
If the t2 bpc is on sale for up to your cost than it's a nobrainer. If the t2 bpc is on sale for a bit higher than your cost and you still make a decent profit, than ok as well.
In reality however, a lot of t2 bpc on the market are -4, and, if not profitable at all, have such a slim margin that buying them is pointless unless you have depleted your stock and lines are sitting idle.
Even than, the risk of starting a job in advance for, say 5% overall profit, is high as market prices can drop below the profitability level.
I would say this for sure. For mods and other stuff -4 isn't usually to bad. But for ships it's pretty much a non-starter. You can't make a profit on ships with a ME -4 BPC so you need to use a decryptor, whihc means you need to also factor in 3x the decryptor price in your final product.
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Shock
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.11 12:25:00 -
[18]
Reading all this is rather depressing. It's almost as if building even T1 ships is more profitable then this nonsense. And the profit margins there are nihil due to the excess of ships, ease of manufactury, abundance of bpo's, botted minerals, etc. But how is possible that the T2 BPC marketthat is so much more complex, risky and take a lot of skills to train, almost sounds like throwing away isk and effort (in this thread).
Am I right in the assumption that T2 BPO holders don't have to deal with any of this crap, nor the costs? It's insane if even a Isthar bpc can't net a nice profit and has to go for a 500k contract?! Or that two weeks or researching on a T2 BS only makes a couple of million ISK. --- soonÖ |
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
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Posted - 2011.06.11 12:39:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Shock Reading all this is rather depressing. It's almost as if building even T1 ships is more profitable then this nonsense. And the profit margins there are nihil due to the excess of ships, ease of manufactury, abundance of bpo's, botted minerals, etc. But how is possible that the T2 BPC marketthat is so much more complex, risky and take a lot of skills to train, almost sounds like throwing away isk and effort (in this thread).
Am I right in the assumption that T2 BPO holders don't have to deal with any of this crap, nor the costs? It's insane if even a Isthar bpc can't net a nice profit and has to go for a 500k contract?! Or that two weeks or researching on a T2 BS only makes a couple of million ISK.
There are some factors to take into consideration. First, not for all t2 ships there are BPO's. If you want to manufactor that kind of ships, you have to follow the invention path (and there isn't any competition for t2 bpo holders) Second, decryptors are key, and make vanilla invention profitable. What's the best scenario depends on skills, manufactering costs, datacore cost etc.etc.
Third, building the components yourselves hugily improves margins, but be prepared to use an alt or 2 solely for that purpuse.
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DeODokktor
Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
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Posted - 2011.06.11 13:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hixxxy
Decryptors are donated from our scanning guys.
All I really do is the invention, I guess the failed inventions need to be factored in.
woohooo free trit cause we mine..
----------- Never Forget the joy of finding a main to link to a scammer alt. N-y-p-h-u-r ! ! |
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Shock
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.11 13:40:00 -
[21]
It's stupefying that the whole process of researching a T2 BPC has to compete with BPOs that simply have NONE of that all that investment in datacores, researchtimes, and possible POS-labslots and decryptors.
The only reason there is money to be made at all is because those few BPOs can't supply all demand and are too valuable to take into 0.0.
Am I right in my assessment that all the investment that goes into acquiring a BPC (with a lower ME) for a normal manufacturer, is just additional profit for a manufacturer with a BPO?
The argument that building the components myself would improve the margins is not really valid here. They don't really add a profit margin to the manufacturing process since I could just sell them straight on the market.
Now I'm not trying to make another T2 BPO whine thread here, there are surely plenty of those already. I've just been out of this game for a long time, came back to see this whole new researching gig implemented (which is really a misnomer, because it's seems more akin to adding a NPC Corp's T2 'license' onto a T1 BPC) and I fail to understand why CCP hasn't made the original BPOs into max run copies or something like that.
It's not like all owners already were close to billionairs at the time when NAGA was handling most of the T2 production for them. I probably lack the capability to imagine how much they must have made by now, 5 years later.
I could say they likely have managed a return of invested time and ISK, but there are probably laws against that level of understatement. --- soonÖ |
Seminole Sun
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Posted - 2011.06.11 15:14:00 -
[22]
The t2 bpo thing is a sticky issue. For MOST things, it's a relatively small factor. There are some ships that might be able to have their demand supplied solely by the BPO market but for the most part, they're a blip in the radar of production. Yes, it's "unfair" in that they have an easier logistical issue (no invention) AND they build with less waste... but there's still a way for you to make a profit.
Decryptors aren't always necessary on ships. and sometimes decryptors can be profitable on things other then ships (though it's rare).
I've been doing a particular ship for the last month that has made me nearly 500mil isk (which is a lot for me). It was so profitable that just hitting the button on invention gave me an EV of $10mil (that's how I calculate profitability... YMMV). Each successful invention produced about $70mil in profits.
There are profits to be had out there at all levels (ammo, drones, ships, rigs and modules) but you have to look around to find them.
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