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Sinjin Mokk
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.06.11 07:49:00 -
[31]
Funny, isn't it?
For all their words on the nobility of concepts like "freedom" and "personal liberty," most Gallente seem to forget that "freedom of religion" is a central part of this political viewpoint.
So every time I hear a Gallente taking a verbal poke at another person's spiritual dogma, it just proves futher their own inner corruption.
New Tales of the Dark Amarr |
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 14:58:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Sinjin Mokk Funny, isn't it?
For all their words on the nobility of concepts like "freedom" and "personal liberty," most Gallente seem to forget that "freedom of religion" is a central part of this political viewpoint.
So every time I hear a Gallente taking a verbal poke at another person's spiritual dogma, it just proves futher their own inner corruption.
I know that, being an Imperialist, you do not have the neccessary cognitive skills to make the distinction, but criticising someone for having a religion is not the same as suppressing their right to believe in it. My contempt for religion is legendary, yet all members of my corporation, and all of my crewmembers - Intaki, Gallente, Jin-Mei, Minmatar, Amarr, Caldari - know they're allowed to have a religion as long as they practice it in strict privacy. While the moral degeneracy required to conceive of running an Empire on a religion is sickening to behold, it would not be my concern if that religion did not also give you the utterly preposterous delusion you were either obligated or entitled to interfere with the development and affairs of other civilizations. This is what transforms your civilization from a sad example of the folly of theocracy to an active and dangerous nuisance to the world, one that would be better off shattered to a point where it could no longer poison the soil. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 15:27:00 -
[33]
Ah, but Andreus, does your own perspective not depend on a belief in certain concepts that you cannot grasp with your hands, nor with a magnetic bottle, nor with a mathematical proof?
Can you catch me a "right" or a "freedom" that people are supposedly entitled to by using any logic that does not boil down to, "it's obvious?"
That is, the same basic argument that the Amarr tend to use?
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 15:47:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Ah, but Andreus, does your own perspective not depend on a belief in certain concepts that you cannot grasp with your hands, nor with a magnetic bottle, nor with a mathematical proof?
No. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 16:50:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris No.
Can you support that position with anything more than monosyllabic denials?
It's my long-standing opinion that the Amarr and Gallente deserve each other. If you have some means of backing up your beliefs that does not boil down to faith-- faith that gives you license to meddle in others' affairs-- I'd love to hear it.
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Acerba Agikor
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.11 16:55:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris I know that, being an Imperialist, you do not have the neccessary cognitive skills to make the distinction, but criticising someone for having a religion is not the same as suppressing their right to believe in it. My contempt for religion is legendary, yet all members of my corporation, and all of my crewmembers - Intaki, Gallente, Jin-Mei, Minmatar, Amarr, Caldari - know they're allowed to have a religion as long as they practice it in strict privacy. While the moral degeneracy required to conceive of running an Empire on a religion is sickening to behold, it would not be my concern if that religion did not also give you the utterly preposterous delusion you were either obligated or entitled to interfere with the development and affairs of other civilizations. This is what transforms your civilization from a sad example of the folly of theocracy to an active and dangerous nuisance to the world, one that would be better off shattered to a point where it could no longer poison the soil.
They're allowed to hold different beliefs on the condition that their heretical views don't inconvenience your own prejudices? There's no tolerance or freedom in that, and to pretend otherwise is laughable. It's like a holder trying to appear open-minded and liberal by saying that his Minmatar slaves are allowed to maintain their barbarous religion, so long as he doesn't find out about it. There's more to faith than private belief, and to restrict a person's religious freedom to include only private belief is nothing short of spiritual castration.
Of course, this has other unpleasant implications. Because you're so keen to force people of an alternative worldview into the closet... what about those who disagree with you on matters outside of religion? Should members of opposing political parties be allowed to hold their personal beliefs, but be required to keep these alternative beliefs to themselves? If the Gallente Federation dealt with political dissidents in the same manor with you deal with religious ones, then there would be no democracy. -------------------------------------------------- You can conceal sadism in technical language or flowery words, but it's still just as fun to watch. |
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:03:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Can you support that position with anything more than monosyllabic denials?
Yes. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Acerba Agikor They're allowed to hold different beliefs on the condition that their heretical views
Well, we're already off to a bad start. You're waving the word "heresy" around like it actually has any practical meaning whatsoever. Let me make this perfectly clear:
Your religion is a falsehood. I spit on it. When you draw the two bows, I draw a circle capped by a triangle. "Heresy" has no meaning to me. Find some other buzzword.
Originally by: Acerba Agikor There's no tolerance or freedom in that, and to pretend otherwise is laughable. It's like a holder trying to appear open-minded and liberal by saying that his Minmatar slaves are allowed to maintain their barbarous religion, so long as he doesn't find out about it. There's more to faith than private belief, and to restrict a person's religious freedom to include only private belief is nothing short of spiritual castration.
I did say that Imperialists likely lacked the cognitive capacity to understand my point, and I am satisfied - although not neccessarily happy - to have been proved entirely correct on this point. Your false comparison is a truly desperate red herring - every single member of every single crew roster on every single one of my ships signed on by their own free will. They were made perfectly aware of the restrictions on religious practice mandated on my ship from the moment they expressed interest in serving. They knew exactly what was required of them, exactly what they were and were not allowed to do, and exactly what they were entitled to expect from me. Whenever my crew take shore leave, they are free to visit whatever religious gatherings or institutions they wish. There are absolutely no restrictions on religious paraphernalia displayed in their own quarters. And most importantly, from the moment they were made aware of the terms of their employment, they are absolutely free to choose whether or not the employment situation I offered was acceptable to them. If it was not, there are plenty of other capsuleers who need crew. If they accept it, and then later decide they cannot abide by it, they are free to leave whenever we reach the next station.
Slaves do not have this choice.
Originally by: Acerba Agikor Of course, this has other unpleasant implications. Because you're so keen to force people of an alternative worldview into the closet... what about those who disagree with you on matters outside of religion? Should members of opposing political parties be allowed to hold their personal beliefs, but be required to keep these alternative beliefs to themselves?
My ships are not run by committee. My ships are not a public forum. My ships are not a democracy. My ships are corporate property upon which there are corporate codes of conduct. My ships are run according to naval standards. The political ideology of a pilot has (or at least, should have) absolutely no bearing on the efficient running of a combat vessel. If a crew member cannot deal with that, they are perfectly entitled to leave by the nearest airlock, and unlike some people I know, I will wait until it's connected to another pressurised environment before letting them walk through it.
Originally by: Acerba Agikor If the Gallente Federation dealt with political dissidents in the same manor with you deal with religious ones, then there would be no democracy.
I am not the entire Gallente Federation. I do not represent the entire Gallente Federation. If you cannot understand this simple fact, it's a wonder your pod recognises you as a human being. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:23:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 11/06/2011 17:25:23 Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 11/06/2011 17:24:04
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Yes.
Well, if you're not willing to back your position up, all right. The Alliance Tournament is on, as is the holographic table at The Skyhook.
Given the availability of other entertainment, I'll leave you to your arguments with your fellow believers.
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Sahaquiel Faust
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:29:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Sahaquiel Faust on 11/06/2011 17:29:53 I'm just going to point out a concept that the Amarrians here probably do not hold true: one's rights end where the person next to you's rights begin. If you want to be a devout believer in any faith it's fine by me. that does not however give you the right to advertise it on my ship to me and any of my other crew members. As soon as you start proselytizing to your crewmates aboard any ship of mine you will be given a warning. and if it happens again after the warning the evangelist is given two options stop with the preaching or find employment elsewhere.
I make sure that people who serve aboard my ships are made fully aware of this and the rest of the code of conduct BEFORE they sign any paperwork. ----- Sahaquiel Faust Director Mixed Metaphor
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:29:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Well, if you're not willing to back your position up, all right.
I am glad you are at least intelligent enough to seperate willingness from ability.
I have the ability to back my arguments up, but I no longer find myself possessing enough respect for you to be willing to take the time and effort to elucidate my reasoning. It will be a lot of work for no real gratification. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:46:00 -
[42]
Your respect comes and goes, Andreus. I've learned not to put too much weight on it.
Happy arguing; may your more-than-usually abstracted deities look on you with favor.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:25:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Your respect comes and goes, Andreus.
As does your worthiness to obtain it. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Acerba Agikor
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:30:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris My ships are not a democracy.
I could tell. -------------------------------------------------- You can conceal sadism in technical language or flowery words, but it's still just as fun to watch. |
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:33:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Acerba Agikor I could tell.
You know something, but you understand nothing.
This is the way of all Amarrians. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Sahaquiel Faust
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:37:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Acerba Agikor
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris My ships are not a democracy.
I could tell.
This of course raises the question "Are YOUR ships democratically structured?"
I strongly suspect they're not. ----- Sahaquiel Faust Director Mixed Metaphor
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:46:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris As does your worthiness to obtain it.
In your eyes, perhaps.
My ability and willingness to argue various sides, Mr. Ixiris, does not mean that I have no clear vision of my own.
I do. It is not the same as yours, and it's a good deal more cautious in finding justification for saying things like,
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris You know something, but you understand nothing.
This is the way of all Amarrians.
I'll presume you're speaking of members of Amarrian society, not persons of Amarrian blood. I'll also presume you make an exception for Amarrian dissidents.
Even presuming all of that, your statement is nevertheless ... presumptuous.
The Amarr are a threat to the rest of us, yes. They are not, however, without merit.
If they were, they'd find it difficult to pose a threat.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:58:00 -
[48]
I disagree. The Empire's absolute lack of merit is the most dangerous thing about it. Given its dreams of violent, bloody conquest of the entire known galaxy, it threatens to drown everything good in the universe in its own backwards, theocratic mediocrity. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:18:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris I disagree. The Empire's absolute lack of merit is the most dangerous thing about it. Given its dreams of violent, bloody conquest of the entire known galaxy, it threatens to drown everything good in the universe in its own backwards, theocratic mediocrity.
Hm. "Theocratic mediocrity." I'm curious what you see as "mediocre," being as you seem to regard the Amarr as exceptional-- if only exceptionally dangerous.
So what do you see as "good" in the universe, Mr. Ixiris, and why do the Amarr lack it?
For my own part, I think they lack a clear-eyed dedication to the search for truth. Encountering a truth that contradicted their preconceived notions about the function of the universe, they'd be slow to accept it-- if they ever could accept it at all.
But then, I believe the same thing about you, and about the Gallente in general. Perhaps it's just true of humans and human-like beings in general. Still, it seems like intensely-held beliefs about the nature of the universe would get in some people's way more than others'.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:40:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Hm. "Theocratic mediocrity." I'm curious what you see as "mediocre," being as you seem to regard the Amarr as exceptional-- if only exceptionally dangerous.
So what do you see as "good" in the universe, Mr. Ixiris, and why do the Amarr lack it?
Humanity. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 20:12:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Aria Jenneth So what do you see as "good" in the universe, Mr. Ixiris, and why do the Amarr lack it?
Humanity.
If true, that really would be exceptional.
But, for good or ill, it isn't. Andreus, there are few things so "human" as getting wrapped up in a big idea and adopting that big idea to such a degree that it shapes your entire reality.
The Amarr have adopted such an idea, and they really do seem to do their best (in their human way) to follow it. You and I literally do not inhabit the same mental universe as the Amarrian faithful do. You could describe it as a form of insanity: one who believes so strongly effectively inhabits a world apart, much like one who has lost touch with reality through less-widespread forms of delusion.
But saying that, Andreus, why do you find them so blameworthy? One who inhabits a different reality cannot reasonably be blamed for acting as seems "right" within that reality.
How does what you're doing differ from screaming curses at a man who insists that frogs are a benevolent and super-intelligent species from outside our reality, come to save us? Even if this man begins binding people into the frogs' service by force, screaming curses at him will not scratch his misunderstanding-- and is therefore nothing but cruelty.
I occasionally try to coax you out of your own, as I perceive them, delusions. But though you hold fast to them, the worst I am likely to think of you is that you're a bit of a fool.
"Evil," if it exists, Andreus, is much less common than simply being wrong. The Amarr are wrong; I firmly believe that.... But I don't see the point of beating them over the head with that. I barely see the point of holding it against them at all.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 20:45:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth If true, that really would be exceptional.
But, for good or ill, it isn't. Andreus, there are few things so "human" as getting wrapped up in a big idea and adopting that big idea to such a degree that it shapes your entire reality.
The Amarrians are slaves to the most quinessentially inhuman idea of all - that quinessentially human features - free thought, free expression, self-determination, freedom of conscience, personal preference, personal belief - are either base and vile or actually the rightful province of a tyrannical, inscrutable, utterly mericless Cthonian monstrosity which not only coldly pulls puppet strings in this life, but for an eternity after it ends. Amarrians believe that all that is good in them comes from this monster, and all that is bad is a result of their human condition. This is the penultimately sickening anti-human belief in the cosmos, spared from being the nadir of human degeneracy only by the fact that it was recently surpassed by the Sansha's Nation, who have committed the abomination of actively removing that which makes them human.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth One who inhabits a different reality cannot reasonably be blamed for acting as seems "right" within that reality.
But saying that, Andreus, why do you find them so blameworthy? One who inhabits a different reality cannot reasonably be blamed for acting as seems "right" within that reality.
Because far from allowing an idea to shape "their" "reality", what the Amarrians have done is allow an idea to destroy reality itself. The reality all of us have to live in. Everything an Amarrian does, every decision an Amarrian makes, is coloured by the belief in entities and places the existence of which no mortal has ever found the merest shred of verifiable evidence for. The Empire has done irreparable damage to a dozen cultures by forcing its tainted worldview upon them. It has committed at least two successful genocides. It has destroyed centuries of technological progress. The Amarr Empire, and the ideology that allows it to exist, is cancerous.
We do not simply allow psychopaths with vibroknives to slit up exotic dancers because "it feels right" to them. Containing such a lunatic and treating his malady is the solution, and if he will not be divested of his urge to murder, locking him away for the safety of others.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth I occasionally try to coax you out of your own, as I perceive them, delusions.
I have none. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 21:24:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris The Amarrians are slaves to the most quinessentially inhuman idea of all....
An idea that finds its origins in the extremely human tendency to anthropomophize their surroundings so as to make them less frightening.
For what it's worth, I agree: the Amarrian God, if He existed, would have much to answer for. But, the Amarr look there and see only glory. They believe that God will ultimately take away all the pain and sorrow of this existence, and do not blame Him for that same pain and sorrow.
One person's heavenly kingdom, another's nightmare. That's just faith at work.
My own faith offers no solace quite so comforting as the idea that there is a being who, so long as you behave as you should, will ultimately protect and guide you. Neither does yours.
Quote: ... far from allowing an idea to shape "their" "reality", what the Amarrians have done is allow an idea to destroy reality itself.... The Amarr Empire, and the ideology that allows it to exist, is cancerous.
They haven't destroyed reality yet, and won't, not while the rest of us stand at their borders with all sorts of pretty, destructive toys.
"Dangerous" does not mean "morally corrupt," Andreus. If you make that mistake, you only mirror the very moral judgments they would level against you.
Perhaps you're content to be a mirror. Perhaps to you the Amarr look so horrible and corrupt that you must be able to become some great and shining good simply by reflecting them.
Very well; I don't really blame you for following your faith in "fundamental human rights," either.
Quote: We do not simply allow psychopaths with vibroknives to slit up exotic dancers because "it feels right" to them. Containing such a lunatic and treating his malady is the solution, and if he will not be divested of his urge to murder, locking him away for the safety of others.
Precisely. You may have not noticed in your anger over what you seem to consider to be my unconscionable defense of the Amarr in certain places, but I fully believe in defending our homes against them.
The Amarr should be held back from further conquests, exposed to other peoples and ideas without having the opportunity to enslave them, and encouraged in one way or another to follow the more reformist-minded in their midst. This should persist until their desire for violent conquest is blunted for good.
Perhaps the Gallente would benefit from the same; a few figures from both cultures seem to have learned a lot from contact with the other.
Quote:
Originally by: Aria Jenneth I occasionally try to coax you out of your own, as I perceive them, delusions.
I have none.
See, Andreus, this is exactly why I can never bring myself to just walk away from you when you're making grumpy faces at me.
You're just so cute!
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Valerie Valate
Amarr Church of The Crimson Saviour
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Posted - 2011.06.11 21:26:00 -
[54]
People and their morals and philosophy are shaped by their planet. _________________________________________
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 21:29:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Valerie Valate People and their morals and philosophy are shaped by their planet.
They often do seem to be, don't they?
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Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.06.11 21:30:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Valerie Valate People and their morals and philosophy are shaped by their planet.
Planets are shaped by bulldozers and explosives. What's that tell you? |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile Naraka.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 21:42:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 11/06/2011 21:42:31
Originally by: Kazzzi
Originally by: Valerie Valate People and their morals and philosophy are shaped by their planet.
Planets are shaped by bulldozers and explosives. What's that tell you?
That one can carry an analogy too far before getting it out the door, mostly.
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Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.06.11 22:28:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 11/06/2011 21:42:31
Originally by: Kazzzi
Originally by: Valerie Valate People and their morals and philosophy are shaped by their planet.
Planets are shaped by bulldozers and explosives. What's that tell you?
That one can carry an analogy too far before getting it out the door, mostly.
No! It means bombs and bulldozers are cool, damnit. |
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.11 22:32:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth An idea that finds its origins in the extremely human tendency to anthropomophize their surroundings so as to make them less frightening.
The Amarrian god is not an anthropomorphism. There is nothing human about it. Everything that's described about it gives the impression of an alien monster.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth But, the Amarr look there and see only glory.
Which is the reason their ideology is so monstrous.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Neither does yours.
I have no faith.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth They haven't destroyed reality yet
Not for lack of trying.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth "Dangerous" does not mean "morally corrupt," Andreus.
Of course it doesn't. The Amarrians are merely both.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Very well; I don't really blame you for following your faith in "fundamental human rights," either.
It is not a faith.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Precisely. You may have not noticed in your anger over what you seem to consider to be my unconscionable defense of the Amarr
All defence of the Amarr is unconscionable. Anyone who does not actively array themselves in opposition to the Amarr supports them simply by inaction.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth The Amarr should be held back from further conquests
Fortunately, capsuleers themselves seem to be acting as suitable executors of this neccessity at the present moment. Amarrian Providence is over, and Amarrian Querious will never be a reality. There will likely come a time, however, when this relatively nonchalant opposition of their animalistic tendencies will no longer suffice.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth exposed to other peoples and ideas without having the opportunity to enslave them
Impractical.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth and encouraged in one way or another to follow the more reformist-minded in their midst
Impossible.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth This should persist until their desire for violent conquest is blunted for good.
Unattainable. The desire is endemic and fundamental to their culture itself.
Originally by: Aria Jenneth See, Andreus, this is exactly why I can never bring myself to just walk away from you when you're making grumpy faces at me.
You're just so cute!
You sound just as banal and fundamentally worthless as IzzyChan. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.06.11 23:04:00 -
[60]
Out of curiosity, is Ixiris on drop or exile ? |
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