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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
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CCP Tallest
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Posted - 2011.06.10 12:52:00 -
[1]
Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far:
Lostistics The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.
Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s
Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.
Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm
Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)
Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months.
Disclaimer II: We do not have a release date for any ship balancing changes at this point, but it will definitely not be released in the upcoming Incarna patch.
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Lin-Young Borovskova
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Posted - 2011.06.10 13:11:00 -
[2]
Good Start.
This Dramiel balance seems needed and not exaggerated.
Logistics: in addition of Warp speed revisit, some bonus or base stats rework so that the Oneiros becomes on pair with his Amarrian counterpart?
With maxed skills do you think that ships logistics dedicated, are not slightly fragile and too much cap consuming?
"Cancer killed thousands and keeps killing hundreds.Aids killed thousands and keeps killing hundreds. And human economics kill how many every day?" |
DarkAegix
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Posted - 2011.06.10 13:28:00 -
[3]
Both are excellent starts. I'm looking forward to balancing changes A change to the Dramiel is much needed, and the one you suggested can only be good. May I suggest a constant stream of very, very small fixes? A fix to the Dramiel isn't game changing, overly complex (AFAIK) or require a redesign of a whole line of ships.
Could your Dramiel fix be implemented within a week? Or are there hoops you need to jump through? I'm just curious as to why things this little can't be implemented relatively quickly.
As for the logistics change... It's a small change indeed. Will it even make a difference? It's definitely necessary, and I guess collectively it will save hundreds of hours in the long run
Finally, are hybrids acknowledged as being weak? They make the Gallente lineup and Caldari hybrid platforms terrible.
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Sojenus
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Posted - 2011.06.10 13:32:00 -
[4]
Perhaps an improvement to tracking links could increase the viability of the Oneiros, making it more into an offensive supporter as compared to the better defensive support of the Guardian. Scimitars might need looking at as well if that was the case, so they could fit tracking links without losing out too badly on their shield tank.
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MrCaptAwsm
Ghosts of Ragnarok Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.10 13:33:00 -
[5]
Dramiels are fine as they are.
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.10 13:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lin-Young Borovskova Logistics: in addition of Warp speed revisit, some bonus or base stats rework so that the Oneiros becomes on pair with his Amarrian counterpart?
You mean its Scimitar counter-part.
A Scimitar can be cap stable with a good fleet fit, but you need several core skills at V.
As far as I know, it's almost impossible to get an Oneiros to be cap stable without incoming energy transfers, which is really only supposed to happen to the Guardian and Basilisk, as they can cap chain with two of their high slots.
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Lin-Young Borovskova
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Posted - 2011.06.10 13:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Lin-Young Borovskova Logistics: in addition of Warp speed revisit, some bonus or base stats rework so that the Oneiros becomes on pair with his Amarrian counterpart?
You mean its Scimitar counter-part.
A Scimitar can be cap stable with a good fleet fit, but you need several core skills at V.
As far as I know, it's almost impossible to get an Oneiros to be cap stable without incoming energy transfers, which is really only supposed to happen to the Guardian and Basilisk, as they can cap chain with two of their high slots.
Was referring to the "armor" factor and that today the Guardian is the only viable choice, but yes has far has my small knowledge in this matter goes about the pathetic capacitors of all Gallente ships the Oneiros looks more like the Scimi. "Cancer killed thousands and keeps killing hundreds.Aids killed thousands and keeps killing hundreds. And human economics kill how many every day?" |
Nyarlothotep
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Posted - 2011.06.10 13:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lin-Young Borovskova Logistics: in addition of Warp speed revisit, some bonus or base stats rework so that the Oneiros becomes on pair with his Amarrian counterpart?
With maxed skills do you think that ships logistics dedicated, are not slightly fragile and too much cap consuming?
Besides the warp speed (which I never really noticed tbh), I think the Oneiros and Scimitar Tracking Link efficiency should be bumped up to 15%. I wish Defenders worked and the Oneiros had some launcher spots. And add another utility high slot...
I don't believe cap and fragility are an issue. I think the logistics ships are pretty balanced in combat. Spider tank solves the fragility issue. Cap boosters, fitting less reps, or not just keeping them running constantly solves most cap issues without making the ship too good.
Logistics ships are my favorite ship to fly. Nearly maxed out all skills that effect my Oneiros and Basilisk.
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Blackhorizon
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.10 14:04:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16 Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.
Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.
I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless. ~ |
Veshta Yoshida
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.10 14:07:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lin-Young Borovskova This Dramiel balance seems needed and not exaggerated...
Would have used "boringly reasonable" but I reckon yours does the trick just as well.
Suppose that means that CCP are not in the tears business after all .. always sad when a God takes no pleasure from the little things
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Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.06.10 14:16:00 -
[11]
I could offer quite a bit of analysis and outlook on Super Capitals, but I'm not sure how much of such a thesis would actually be read, so here's a bullet points list of what I think needs to happen with supercaps, primarily Super Carriers.
- The armor tanking super capitals need to have their EHP reduced. The shield tanking Supercarriers have comparatively reasonable levels of HP/EHP.
- Trimarks, and other percentile increase based HP modules/rigs, should have a stacking nerf applied to them. As it is, there's no incentive not to slap on three trimarks, a HG slave set and a Regenerative Membrane onto an Aeon. Adding a stacking penalty would be a beneficial stealth boost to active tanking in general.
- The often discussed Cyno Spool Timer, which would add a charge up time to the capital jump drive, must be implemented. Taking away their rapid deployment capacity will end the era of super capital hot drops. The sooner this happens, the better, IMO.
- Fighter Bombers should have their damage output reduced. As they are, they only have their insane levels of DPS to combat the insane levels of HP found on other super capitals.
- Energy Neutralizers could have increased effectiveness against super capital ships.
That's all from me, for now.
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.06.10 14:31:00 -
[12]
The dram speed nerf is about right, but its bonuses need re-examining as well - the combination of falloff + tracking + high DPS + relative capacitor-independence leaves very little in the way of exploitable weaknesses for its class, which stands in contrast to almost every other ship in the game. Since it will remain the fastest frigate, a speed reduction alone won't really change its position relative to other frigates (i.e. it's likely to lose to a well-flown daredevil but should comfortably beat everything else). Because it will retain very strong range/transversal dictation, one or the other of the falloff/tracking bonuses has to go as well if you want to bring it back in line; preferably the falloff bonus, IMO.
I don't really see any major issues with its current scan resolution.
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.10 14:36:00 -
[13]
Your dramiel change solves some of the issues with the dramiel, but it will still be too good compared to the other pirate frigates and AF's.
Currently, that single ship can fulfill the role of almost all the current T1, T2 and faction frigs out there. Killing a dramiel isn't that hard but too often it requires fitting specifically against it to be able to kill it.
Right now, with this fit, all level 5's and NO IMPLANTS the dramiel can do/has: - 5k/s not overloaded - 2.3 sec align time - Dual prop (and thus ability to disengage easily) - 190dps with selectable damage type - 6.7k ehp - 8.3k falloff with close range ammo - 3 drones - Neut (so able to easily break an ishkur's tank) - 42m signature radius
I personally don't mind the dramiel being so fast and so agile, what bothers me is that it can do all the things on that list at the same time. In my opinion, it needs a slight powergrid nerf on top of the small speed, align time and scan ref nerfs. That way, one cannot choose all the options on that list and is forced to leave some of them because they can't all fit. None of those nerfs are crippling, but together they should bring it back in line with the other pirate frigates.
That single ship singlehandedly turned frigate pvp into dramiel pvp. Most of the frigates encountered in 0.0 are dramiels and other frigates are unable to defeat a well piloted and well fit dramiel (thankfully good dramiel pilots are a minority, but the ship itself is still way too versatile). The dramiel can just overload its afterburner and leave in the rare cases where it can't win. In lowsec, it made the good old and noob friendly T1 frigate solo pvp almost obsolete.
I understand that some people don't want it to be nerfed because it's actually a very good tackler and useful in 0.0 50 man fleets. Boosting interceptor speed and/or nerfing the dramiel's damage output and versatility is the way to go, in my opinion. ____________________________________________
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Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.06.10 14:37:00 -
[14]
A big problem people have with the Dramiel is the ease with which it can disengage from most anything it chooses to skirmish if it turns out to be more than it can chew. How much more quickly can a Dramiel be crippled, and how wiggle room in module activation time does it lose, in having its base capacitor knocked down from 365 to 305 or 310?
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Daneel Trevize
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.10 14:39:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Blackhorizon I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
No, the Angels need nerfing, and frigs need fixing, but you can't creep their power up without making T1 destroyers and cruisers even worse relatively. Angels nerf, hybrids buff, BCs nerf/BSs buff. Restore the classes and make T1 decent no matter what your total SP & isk gives you options-wise. |
Acac Sunflyier
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.10 15:22:00 -
[16]
Actually I'm not too sure about the warp speed bonus to logistics. Say that a fleet warps to a pos tower with battleships and logistics? Wouldn't you want the logistic team to come out of warp at the same time as the battleships they're going to be repairing? If the logistics team warps faster than the battleships doesn't that make them an easier target?
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.06.10 15:25:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 10/06/2011 15:25:58
Originally by: CCP Tallest Lostistics The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.
Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s
Oh, only took you like 3 years since players first asked for this, ok.
Originally by: CCP Tallest Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.
Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm
Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)
CCP nerfin' mah nanoz (again). Not really sure what the point of a Dramiel that isn't super-zippy is, but whatevs.
Originally by: Blackhorizon
Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.
Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.
I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
Yeah, I agree with this too. Frigs pretty much aren't worth flying unless they're T2 or faction (usually pirate faction, though people fly the navy faction for lulz/cheapness). Would be good to make the T1 frig lineup actually compete on any level.
Originally by: Don Pellegrino Your dramiel change solves some of the issues with the dramiel, but it will still be too good compared to the other pirate frigates and AF's.
Currently, that single ship can fulfill the role of almost all the current T1, T2 and faction frigs out there. Killing a dramiel isn't that hard but too often it requires fitting specifically against it to be able to kill it.
Right now, with this fit, all level 5's and NO IMPLANTS the dramiel can do/has: - 5k/s not overloaded - 2.3 sec align time - Dual prop (and thus ability to disengage easily) - 190dps with selectable damage type - 6.7k ehp - 8.3k falloff with close range ammo - 3 drones - Neut (so able to easily break an ishkur's tank) - 42m signature radius
I personally don't mind the dramiel being so fast and so agile, what bothers me is that it can do all the things on that list at the same time. In my opinion, it needs a slight powergrid nerf on top of the small speed, align time and scan ref nerfs. That way, one cannot choose all the options on that list and is forced to leave some of them because they can't all fit. None of those nerfs are crippling, but together they should bring it back in line with the other pirate frigates.
That single ship singlehandedly turned frigate pvp into dramiel pvp. Most of the frigates encountered in 0.0 are dramiels and other frigates are unable to defeat a well piloted and well fit dramiel (thankfully good dramiel pilots are a minority, but the ship itself is still way too versatile). The dramiel can just overload its afterburner and leave in the rare cases where it can't win. In lowsec, it made the good old and noob friendly T1 frigate solo pvp almost obsolete.
I understand that some people don't want it to be nerfed because it's actually a very good tackler and useful in 0.0 50 man fleets. Boosting interceptor speed and/or nerfing the dramiel's damage output and versatility is the way to go, in my opinion.
Don't bring your copypasta in here.
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.10 15:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Acac Sunflyier Actually I'm not too sure about the warp speed bonus to logistics. Say that a fleet warps to a pos tower with battleships and logistics? Wouldn't you want the logistic team to come out of warp at the same time as the battleships they're going to be repairing? If the logistics team warps faster than the battleships doesn't that make them an easier target?
When doing a fleet warp, the entire fleet warps at the same speed as the slowest ship.
In a HAC/Recon/Logi fleet, the logis will slow down the entire fleet to 3AU/s. ____________________________________________
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CirJohn
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Posted - 2011.06.10 15:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Blackhorizon Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16 Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP. ... I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
I don't mean to be rude, but your obviously a younger player. A good while back, frigates and speed mods had to get an overhaul because they were majorly overpowered. Essentially it was possible to move too fast in regard to tracking issues, manuevering on grid, tackling etc. Rebuffing frigate speed would only mean the return these issues.
A more productive solution might be a small sig radius buff accompanied by a countering buff to small weapons modules and smartbombs. The intent of this set of buffs being better frigate survival against weapons not intended for use against frigates.
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Alana Blackrose
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Posted - 2011.06.10 16:22:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Alana Blackrose on 10/06/2011 16:22:36 I greatly appreciate your apporach to buffing/debuffing. Small incremental improvements tend to get better (if somewhat slower) results than massive changes which can result in over-nerfing and uber-buffing. |
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Halbert Vector
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Posted - 2011.06.10 16:27:00 -
[21]
The dramiel's speed is a part of it's personality. I'd remove the drones or reduce the bay to 5m3 instead- what does a dramiel need so many drones for anyway? Frigate pilots should be focusing on their velocity, not managing minions. |
Reed Tiburon
Caldari Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
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Posted - 2011.06.10 17:23:00 -
[22]
Originally by: CCP Tallest Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far:
Lostistics The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.
Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s
Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.
Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm
Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)
Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months.
Disclaimer II: We do not have a release date for any ship balancing changes at this point, but it will definitely not be released in the upcoming Incarna patch.
Great initiative, Greyscale. Hopefully you can stick this in Incarna 1.1 or whatever.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2011.06.10 17:37:00 -
[23]
Personally, I agree that the speed of the dram is not really the problem... its the tank and dps it has at the same time....
I think a 10-20% reduction in its dps would be the best option... (i.e. reduce drones)
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2011.06.10 17:46:00 -
[24]
Seems reasonable to me tbh. Keep going! _____________________ Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're on a forum, with the alt your alt could post like. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.06.10 18:36:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gizznitt Malikite
Personally, I agree that the speed of the dram is not really the problem... its the tank and dps it has at the same time....
I think a 10-20% reduction in its dps would be the best option... (i.e. reduce drones)
There's certainly different options available when balancing the Dramiel. I would be tempted to leave its speed as it is, but to really reduce the agility and cut the DPS and/or tank too. That would leave it as a really fast frigate, but one that would take a while to get up to speed, and would be vulnerable at gates etc. But CCP's ideas seem sensible enough.
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Veshta Yoshida
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.10 19:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Gizznitt Malikite Personally, I agree that the speed of the dram is not really the problem... its the tank and dps it has at the same time.....
Yet it all comes back to the speed.
Their speed is a big part of the tank and tracking bonus allows them to go full tilt constantly with not a care in the world. The suggested changes are huge if you are experienced in fighting them. They will not only be slower but more sluggish .. orbits will widen and escape attempts slowed due to poorer acceleration.
I would have tweaked grid to disallow the DP abuse, to force some sort of choice, but mass increase will do nicely .. my Slicer can now drop 1 tracking rig for some more oomph which is of more value against everything else so I am content
PS: Big problem is that they will no longer have such a clear advantage so people may start flying the much deadlier DD instead .. dammit!
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2011.06.10 19:55:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Reed Tiburon
Originally by: CCP Tallest Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far:
Lostistics The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.
Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s
Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.
Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm
Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)
Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months.
Disclaimer II: We do not have a release date for any ship balancing changes at this point, but it will definitely not be released in the upcoming Incarna patch.
Great initiative, Greyscale. Hopefully you can stick this in Incarna 1.1 or whatever.
Man, this "balancing" lark is really easy.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2011.06.10 20:00:00 -
[28]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Man, this "balancing" lark is really easy.
Just out of curiosity, what are the types of litmus tests and procedures does CCP perform when tweaking the balance of ships???
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente Malevolence. Imperial 0rder
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Posted - 2011.06.10 20:43:00 -
[29]
Good and much needed changes. Dramiel is ******edly overpowered compared to other frigs.
Next, assault frigates ? They are looking very feeble now compared to the faction frigs...very sad.
----- Malevolence. is recruiting. Dive into the world of 0.0 !
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Veshta Yoshida
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.10 20:56:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Louis deGuerre ...Next, assault frigates ? They are looking very feeble now compared to the faction frigs...very sad.
Never mention AFs!
Think some of the devs still have nervous ticks from the last time when they thought they had the answer only to have it torn apart on SiSi It's a bridge class, crammed in between frigates and cruisers with prey/predators in either category .. "fixing" them will require more than a tweak or two I fear.
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.10 21:32:00 -
[31]
Edited by: fukier on 10/06/2011 21:39:49 i guess the got ccp tallest cuss balancing is a pretty "tall" order
also is this just ship balancing or you doing mod balancing too? like hybrids need love...
plus from the dram nerf it looks like you want angel ships (minnie) ships to remain the fastest and serp (gallente) to be the most agile... is this going to carry over to non faction ships i.e minnie regular ships being the fastest and make gallente ships the most agile?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.06.10 22:58:00 -
[32]
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Lostistics The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.
Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s
Thank you so much. I put up a suggestion about this about 4 months ago, and I'm glad to see it was noticed. Would you consider adding T3s to the warp speed list, too?
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Soden Rah
Gallente EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.10 23:10:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Lostistics The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.
Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s
Thank you so much. I put up a suggestion about this about 4 months ago, and I'm glad to see it was noticed. Would you consider adding T3s to the warp speed list, too?
I have a question about warp speed actually...
Say I am trying to outrun some people chasing me in my fast frigate... or any other reason I might want to move as fast as possible...
And I come off a gate align to the next and enter warp... But at the moment I enter warp a Big slow ship also enters warp and we end up on the same 'warp' grid as each other.... Do I get held up and only warp at the speed of the big slow ship, does the big slow ship get sped up to my speed, or do we go at some average of the two?
If accidentally warping at the same time as a slow ship while in a fast one lands you up going at the slower speed, would it be possible to change the code to make it so that you only 'lock step' in warp with fleet mates?
Also are you planning to have a look at warp speed acceleration at any point? atm its sooo slow you have to make a really long jump to actually notice being in a faster to warp ship.
__________________________________________________
Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.10 23:16:00 -
[34]
Soden, if you accidently end up in the same warp tunnel as a slower ship, you will fly past him.
The warp acceleration and deceleration speed and time are the same for every ship in the game, but once you reach your top speed (you will reach it as fast as the slower ship), he won't be able to keep up with you.
The only exception is fleet warping. In that case, the entire fleet warps at the speed of the slowest ship.
The warp acceleration/deceleration problem has been acknowledged by CCP a long time ago, but it's apparently very hard to fix because it involves some very low level (underlying) code that can mess up a lot of things. ____________________________________________
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Soden Rah
Gallente EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.10 23:18:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Don Pellegrino Soden, if you accidently end up in the same warp tunnel as a slower ship, you will fly past him.
The warp acceleration and deceleration speed and time are the same for every ship in the game, but once you reach your top speed (you will reach it as fast as the slower ship), he won't be able to keep up with you.
The only exception is fleet warping. In that case, the entire fleet warps at the speed of the slowest ship.
The warp acceleration/deceleration problem has been acknowledged by CCP a long time ago, but it's apparently very hard to fix because it involves some very low level (underlying) code that can mess up a lot of things.
Ah cool thanks for the response....
Wish I hadn't asked in gerneral now....
NM, give something for the trolls to pick over...
__________________________________________________
Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.06.10 23:24:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
Originally by: Louis deGuerre ...Next, assault frigates ? They are looking very feeble now compared to the faction frigs...very sad.
Never mention AFs!
Think some of the devs still have nervous ticks from the last time when they thought they had the answer only to have it torn apart on SiSi It's a bridge class, crammed in between frigates and cruisers with prey/predators in either category .. "fixing" them will require more than a tweak or two I fear.
I never got why the AFs with the boosted oversized ABs was such a big deal. Yeah they'd go fast, but they wouldn't have any agility to turn or kite or do, you know, frigate things.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari Technomage Trilogy Crimson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.11 00:07:00 -
[37]
I think acceleration is a key statistic, especially in the frigate class, that is ignored where it could obviously help balancing issues such as blasters.
Ships like the merlin with a split of 2 turret highs and 2 missile highs, but only a bonus for one of those weapon systems need looking at.
Aside from the nitpicky things, I think what should be strived for is more engaging roles for pilots to take in fights. Space is open terrain, and in war terrain is what causes for maneuvering and all the drama aside from the planet or station you want to blow up. I would look at adding some terrain effect ships or equipment. If what I mean by that isn't clear I can iterate further later but it should be fairly obvious how to extrapolate from "I have a big playground of emptyness and thousands of years in advanced technology to take advantage of it".
Something along these lines could also further draw lines between high/low/nullsec by having different area effects cause for destruction in high sec yet not in null sec, but with consequences to the system when it is used anywhere.
-More Pewpew, Less QQ- |
trademeyourmoneys
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Posted - 2011.06.11 01:46:00 -
[38]
I really hope supers are added to this list soon :)
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zxsteel
Darkness Of Absolution
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:11:00 -
[39]
A+ for next step of changes, on your behalf. But I do think, we need to do more changes in future too. Darn shame we can get vote count on ideas of changes, or ideas. Threw up pages, and threw it on log on pages to be voted on. I must have been here! |
Sannikoff
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Posted - 2011.06.11 04:12:00 -
[40]
I suggest to start Hybrid weapon
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Green Shift
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.11 05:01:00 -
[41]
Please fix omen
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Syndic Thrass
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.11 07:00:00 -
[42]
who cares about the dramiel, I'm going to be able to walk in stations!
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 08:11:00 -
[43]
I hope you're a sane dev and cyno mechanics revision will follow soon. I hope that this particular area is within your range of duties, too. Otherwise even the most brill decisions won't remedy EVE completely.
GL with it. Viam supervadet vadens. ---
Originally by: CCP Greyscale Is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2011.06.11 08:55:00 -
[44]
I hope there's more than just team BFF who's working on balance. To me latest CCP balancing efforts look like novice's steps - like 'rocket boost' or these changes to dram.
From my perspective, nerfing speed was essential, but not enough: it should've been accompanied by nerfing ship resources in some way (cpu and/or pg) or ship bonuses (falloff or tracking).
Also, take a look at other angel ships - they're also incredibly fast and agile, but everybody whined about dram because it had numerous other advantages besides just speed/agi (and possibly mach because of 1400mm fotming).
Even better to start from introducing some concept/changing something at global level (remember quantum rise?), then rebalancing ships to make them competitive in these new conditions. _____ EVE Fit |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.06.11 10:09:00 -
[45]
Yeah, the other Angel ships need looking at too. They're not as clearly overpowered as the Dramiel, but, let's face it, the pirate faction ships most seen in PVP are all Angel ships, with a side helping of Bhaalgorn. That's basically all the proof that you need.
The problem is the same problem as the Dramiel has - the combination of good speed, good agility and good, easily applied DPS. The combination of great speed and great agility is expecially powerful and a sensible starting point would be to just significantly reduce their agilities to "normal" levels. I'm not keen on the falloff bonuses though - again, the combination of great speed and good damage projection is very powerful.
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Eclampsia
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Posted - 2011.06.11 10:32:00 -
[46]
Look at this topic pls:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1415482
This discussion going about half of year already...
I supprised that you are asking us only now...
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Count'Dus
LIGHTS 0UT Gypsy Band
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Posted - 2011.06.11 11:34:00 -
[47]
Originally by: MrCaptAwsm Dramiels are fine as they are.
Agree.
Don't touch Dramiel's aligning speed. This is the feature of all Angel Cartel ships. -- ~ gypsy inside ~ |
Captain Nares
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Posted - 2011.06.11 11:58:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Captain Nares on 11/06/2011 12:07:22
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.
Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm
Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)
Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months.
Don't like dramiel changes.
Why it is too fast? It is Angel ship, it must be fast. But you gonna nerf its speed for some reason.
Why it is so fat? My Dramiel has 7.5k HP (almost as an AF!). No answer.
Why it has so high DPS (270 overloaded, more than most AF). No answer.
I expected you to make it weaker in terms of dps and tank, not slower. Try to appoach the problem from another side.
My fit: http://pastie.org/2051794 + 3% imps.
And standard cheap cookie-cutter fit just to be sure you know what are you fixing: http://pastie.org/2051814
Slower than fleet ceptors, btw.
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Veshta Yoshida
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 12:31:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Veshta Yoshida on 11/06/2011 12:36:31
Originally by: Natalia Kovac I never got why the AFs with the boosted oversized ABs was such a big deal. Yeah they'd go fast, but they wouldn't have any agility to turn or kite or do, you know, frigate things.
It wasn't so much the oversized hilarity but more the fact that it made the difference between good AFs and bad AFs a lot more pronounced.
Think about how bad for balance the Dramiel is due to being able to go 2k/s on AB .. now apply that same game breaking speed to Jags/Wolves/Ishkurs/et al. AF boost will have to be a thorough revision of the individual ships as any bulk-fix will inevitably make half of them worthless and the other half broken
Originally by: Captain Nares ...Slower than fleet ceptors, btw. ..
If you want to compare speeds to "fleet interceptors" then you have to use comparable fits. An interceptor has to use two speed mods just to match the drams speed with mwd .. two slots on a frigate is a massive sacrifice.
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Quindaster
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Posted - 2011.06.11 12:44:00 -
[50]
I hate dramiels, it's impossible to lock them on the gate jump, because they warp away like shuttles.
I hope it will be possible to lock them after this small nerf.
And who cry about drami...I saw how drami fly in WH with +85% bonus on speed. Absolutely impossible to do something agains it, so, nerf is correct.
And about logistics...I don't see here happy logistics pilots, so this boost, like nothing, but, thanks for this.
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Arxa Atram
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Posted - 2011.06.11 13:12:00 -
[51]
NNNooo, why can't u leave Dramiel alone??!!!1
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Gunnery Skills
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Posted - 2011.06.11 15:56:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Quindaster I hate dramiels, it's impossible to lock them on the gate jump, because they warp away like shuttles.
I hope it will be possible to lock them after this small nerf.
And who cry about drami...I saw how drami fly in WH with +85% bonus on speed. Absolutely impossible to do something agains it, so, nerf is correct.
And about logistics...I don't see here happy logistics pilots, so this boost, like nothing, but, thanks for this.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Interdiction_bubble Solution
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Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
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Posted - 2011.06.11 16:12:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Gunnery Skills
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Interdiction_bubble Solution
No. Dramiels can escape bubbles. It's a well known fact that Drams AB at 50km/s and MWD at 20AU/s.
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Falcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:27:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Blackhorizon Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16 Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.
Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.
I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
This.
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Naomi Wildfire
Amarr Spricer WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:41:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Naomi Wildfire on 11/06/2011 17:41:03 Theres nothing wrong with the Dramiel tbh, its so easy to take down. People even make sports out of it.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:52:00 -
[56]
Overall, these changes look good. Comments: - I expected a bigger dram nerf, tbh. But, baby steps are good steps as long as you guys are willing to iterate on them in a reasonable timeframe. - The logi warp speed changes are long overdue. Thanks. :) - On the subject of logis, I've always dreamed about trading the tracking link bonuses on the Ony/Scim for an active tank bonus. It leaves Scim/Ony better at small gangs, very cap vulnerable, and doesn't provide any real extra utility in large gangs that the Guardian/Basilisk dominate in. - Please don't forget about Supercaps, EAFs, AFs, hybrids, caldari missile ship grid (Nighthawk, Cerb, etc), etc.
Fly safe!
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Walextheone
The Red Circle Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:56:00 -
[57]
Extremely nice to see ship balancing getting attention.
Dramiel and warp speed of logistic buff looks good IMO. The Oneiros really comes off short compared to other three.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:05:00 -
[58]
The dramiel's DPS is exagerated. The real reason people hate it is it's GTFO ability. I like the proposed change because it doesn't hit the ship with a nerf hammer. Hopefully CCP has the mental fortitude to ignore the "Kill It with a Nerf Bat!" crowd.
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mkint
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:58:00 -
[59]
Regarding logi buff: the warp speed buff is alright I guess, but kinda meh unless you are in a very specific kind of fleet.
The biggest disparity between the guardian and the oneiros, the oneiros is limited by the fitting choices it must make that the Guardian does not need to make. An oneiros must choose between it's buffer (a 1600mm plate), it's RR bonus, and it's tracking link bonus. Oneiros can only run 2 of the 3 things it needs to be competitive with a Guardian, and the pilot even needs implants to even do that. A guardian can run all 3, it's 1600mm buffer, it's RR's and it's energy transfers, and it still ends up with a better speed and agility than the oneiros. The only advantage to the oneiros is that it has a higher potential RR, but it must sacrifice both tank and it's link bonus to get it. Increasing onei's power grid would make up for the differences. (I also wouldn't complain if it got a buff to it's tracking link bonus, but I don't see that being it's biggest weakness.)
Even with major Oneiros buffs, the oneiros would add to the weapons performance of a couple ships, but guardians can essentially make an entire fleet immune to capacitor warfare. Making onei tracking links into friendly AOE would make up for that difference, but would probably end up overpowered.
-onei needs 200 added to it's base PG to bring it more in line with the guardian. A 300 powergrid buff would do even more to bring it into line.
note: I don't fly shield tanks, but I'd imagine a scimitar could be looked at in the same way.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.06.11 21:13:00 -
[60]
Originally by: mkint Looks like the scimi needs more midslots and more powergrid.
Nonsense logic leads to nonsense conclusions. There's nothing the matter with the Scimitar. Also, your comparison fo Oneiros with Guardian is absurd - you should be comparing the Oneiros with the Scimitar.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.11 21:37:00 -
[61]
@ the op, great news!
I think the Dram change suggested is one decent way of looking at it, but could do well combined with some additional slight nerfs - capacitor and lockrange could easily be toned down in addition to the changes in the OP without it going too far, maybe powergrid or drone bay as well. IMHO the agility nerf could be less than suggested though, having the agility to me is "personality" like someone suggested ;)
Logistics warp speed change is ofc welcome as well.
Next up some Hybrid love maybe? ----------
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.11 22:11:00 -
[62]
As mentioned, the problem with the Dramiel is that it does too many things at the same time.
1. It has Dual Propulsion, while fielding a Medium Shield Extender. 2. It is the fastest ship in the game, while having fantastic "edge of scram range" DPS. Due to 3x Light Drones as well as falloff and tracking bonused autocannons. 3. The Dramiel does a lot of DPS without even fitting damage mods. Due to Drones, Double bonused turrets with falloff/tracking bonuses. Although a lot of Dramiels often fit a Gyrostabiliser, they can easily forgo it for more speed/PG or other advantages.
Overall, the combination of near-AF EHP, Better than interceptor speed, while featuring dual propulsion makes it the best kiting ship in the game, It has fantastic tracking, as well as drones so even if the majority of competitive t2 fit PvP interceptors/AFs/Frigates start the fight at 0 meters with it, it still wins since it can highten traversal easily without minimising it's own DPS. It also is one the most damaging frigates, almost on par with the Taranis while being faster, having twice the EHP, triple the range and a utility neut.
I would like to see a Midslot Swapped for a lowslot. Leave the speed alone, although the agility should be brought back in line to around 3.1s base. Remove the tracking bonus and swap it for a turret damage bonus 7.5/10% per level, and remove the drone bay.
What this does is the following; - The Dramiel now has to choose between Dual Propulsion, or a Medium shield extender. Meaning that if it wants to be good at escaping and kiting in scram range, it has to sacrifice effective hit points making it more vulnerable. If the Dramiel wants to fit a Plate it has to sacrifice more PG and Speed for the EHP advantage. If it chooses to go with Ab/Scram/MSE it is more vulnerable running gate camps and to MWD/point kiting ships like Crow/Slicer etc. and more vulnerable to LR tacklers. - The Dramiel's DPS is now all turret based. And with a 10% damage bonus per level it should be on par, slightly better than when it had to rely on drones. It now gets more benefit when fitting damage modules, but it also finds itself having more issues with tracking when facing ships at 0m, its not as good at killing drones meaning it's more vulnerable to bigger ships in scram range, and isn't as good at sitting at 20km with LR point zooming around at 6km/s doing 100dps+ with artys/drones.
TL;DR the Dramiel will still be fast, a very effective tackler and a high dps, high speed frigate. It will no-longer be able to kill everything or run from everything that it cannot. Making it take more risks when it engages and forcing it to come in closer to do more damage, as opposed to sitting at 7km the entire fight.
As an added bonus, the Minmatar Firetail now brings something unique to the Dramiel (4 mids) and isn't completely obsoleted by it. The Dramiel still boosts being the fastest ship in the game, and still has a unique high speed high damage feel. ---
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Sassy B
Kenssy Fried Chicken Kru
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Posted - 2011.06.11 22:18:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Captain Nares Don't like dramiel changes.
Why it is too fast and agile? It is Angel ship, it must be fast. But you gonna nerf its speed for some reason.
Why it is so fat? My Dramiel has 7.5k HP (almost as an AF!). No answer.
Why it has so high DPS (270 overloaded, more than most AF). No answer.
I expected you to make it weaker in terms of dps and tank, not slower. Try to appoach the problem from another side.
I dont need to post cos this guy did it for me.
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.06.11 22:36:00 -
[64]
Came up on a related thread. Outside the scope of simple balancing but might be a good thing to look at long term:
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde
Originally by: MeBiatch hmm... i would rather see capital nuets put on dreads......
as for sub cap anti cap ship... make a techII tier II bc called heavy bombers... let them fire citadel torps and give them a covert ops cloak and cyno and a bomb luancher...
presto you now have a sub cap anti cap ship... plus you have a sub cap that can effectivly shoot at towers and structures.... (ths would be awesome for wh space)
Yes to capital grade neuts
Infinite yes to a T2 BC that can use the BOPS portal. I think a Heavy Bomber would be an excellent use of it, though I'd swap the bomb launcher for a bomb launcher that hurls interdiction spheres (or something similar). A Black Ops anti capital/supercapital ship would spice things up for sure
---
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mkint
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Posted - 2011.06.11 22:42:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: mkint Looks like the scimi needs more midslots and more powergrid.
Nonsense logic leads to nonsense conclusions. There's nothing the matter with the Scimitar. Also, your comparison fo Oneiros with Guardian is absurd - you should be comparing the Oneiros with the Scimitar.
Okay, now that's all kinds of stupid. The choice is never ever ever "should I bring an oneiros or a scimi to this armor fleet" the choice is "should I bring an oneiros or a guardian." Right now the guardian has the better buffer and makes your fleet nearly immune to capacitor warfare, oneiros dies easier and has a wasted bonus.
Between basi and scimi, I don't know why anyone would fly a scimi as it appears to have the same problems the onei has but worse. I don't fly either shield logi though, so I couldn't say exactly how to bring it into balance.
However, by your ignorant trolling, I'm guessing you've never had to make the decision of what logi to have along in a fleet.
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Soon Shin
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Posted - 2011.06.11 23:02:00 -
[66]
Scimitars are used because of their small sig, cap stability solo, and fast speed.
They excel in roaming and shield nano gangs. A scimitar with an AB can easily reach past 800m/s Though I admit their tracking link bonus is useless.
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Podcat
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.12 00:04:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Podcat on 12/06/2011 00:04:47 Speed nerf looks ok but isnt enough to balance the frigate class. It needs a powergrid nerf to make it harder to fit mse+200mm guns and the falloff bonus needs to be removed because it makes the ship much too strong at scram edge without any weakness up close because of tracking bonus. I dont mind the slot layout though
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved - Vote prom4csm |
Sino Sarn
Sick Tight Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.06.12 00:49:00 -
[68]
Originally by: CCP Tallest Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far:
Lostistics The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.
Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s
Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.
Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm
Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)
Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months.
Disclaimer II: We do not have a release date for any ship balancing changes at this point, but it will definitely not be released in the upcoming Incarna patch.
Are you seriously talking about ~balance~ and NOT supers????????
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Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
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Posted - 2011.06.12 01:48:00 -
[69]
CCP Tallest did say he was starting out with the easy changes first, supers are certainly not easy as they first need a concept for a role they are supposed to fill.
The changes are probably not enough but I would much rather incremental changes that get a good balance than simply creating a flavor of the patch like it was with nano's then lasers then AC's. I can say each time those massive changes came into effect it meant everyone had suddenly wasted all their training time before.
Slight tweaks until you get things right is the way to go CCP Tallest, its a lot harder to go wrong then.
Dram changes seem sound and could easily be tweaked further in the future if it is nescessary and I'll enjoy warping a little faster as a logi when it is time to run for my life.
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Phoebus ApolloX
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Posted - 2011.06.12 02:09:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Phoebus ApolloX on 12/06/2011 02:10:29 I've always felt the more evasive a ship is the less offensive power it should have, the game's biggest issue with combat is that evasionary tactics make most fighting very non-committal (too easy to get out for many popular engagement styles). The dramiel should not be a solo pvp ship at the speeds it can reach, I have no issue having a ship that can go that fast, it just should have next to no actual ability to deal dps if it can (it should be well below the average interceptor or assault frig's dps). Something that fast should only be practically a scout and a point for a gang and be unable to fight unsupported (as should most frigs). However slowing the ship down to put it more in-line with other frigs is also an acceptable option imho.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.06.12 02:27:00 -
[71]
You need to nerf the Dramiels power grid a bit. The ability to fit dual propulsion, medium shield extender, damage control and tackle is just over the top.
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.12 02:58:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Marlona Sky Edited by: Marlona Sky on 12/06/2011 02:52:14 1. You need to nerf the Dramiels power grid a bit. The ability to fit dual propulsion, medium shield extender, damage control and tackle is just over the top.
2. This game has become all about remote reps. Ships that receive a personal repair bonus are instantly passed up in favor of ships with a resistant bonus or HP increase bonus. It was suggested in a thread that the personal rep amount bonus should also include repairs incoming as well. This might help a bit to add more ships as an option to todays fleet fights.
This, so much. ____________________________________________
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.12 05:10:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Originally by: Marlona Sky
2. This game has become all about remote reps. Ships that receive a personal repair bonus are instantly passed up in favor of ships with a resistant bonus or HP increase bonus. It was suggested in a thread that the personal rep amount bonus should also include repairs incoming as well. This might help a bit to add more ships as an option to todays fleet fights.
This, so much.
Yes. it's a great idea.
Originally by: Podcat
Speed nerf looks ok but isnt enough to balance the frigate class. It needs a powergrid nerf to make it harder to fit mse+200mm guns and the falloff bonus needs to be removed because it makes the ship much too strong at scram edge without any weakness up close because of tracking bonus. I dont mind the slot layout though.
Also instead of scan res lower lockrange to that of a taranis to make interceptors better as gang tackle
And this, I'm not personally that big on the PG nerf (or just don't overdo it) but greatly reducing lockrange *in addition* to scan res would be very good IMO. Removing falloff would maybe be decent too, but I'm of the opinion that you should do smaller tweaks more often, if possible - to not grind it to the ground right away but revisit it in a few months to see if the nerf was adequate :D ----------
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Scar O'ltala
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Posted - 2011.06.12 06:31:00 -
[74]
Reduce dramiel's power-grid, plz.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.06.12 09:14:00 -
[75]
Originally by: mkint
Okay, now that's all kinds of stupid. The choice is never ever ever "should I bring an oneiros or a scimi to this armor fleet" the choice is "should I bring an oneiros or a guardian." Right now the guardian has the better buffer and makes your fleet nearly immune to capacitor warfare, oneiros dies easier and has a wasted bonus.
Between basi and scimi, I don't know why anyone would fly a scimi as it appears to have the same problems the onei has but worse. I don't fly either shield logi though, so I couldn't say exactly how to bring it into balance.
However, by your ignorant trolling, I'm guessing you've never had to make the decision of what logi to have along in a fleet.
Generally, when questioning someone else's credibility, it's not a good idea to completely demolish your own in the same breath.
The problem with the Oneiros is that the fast armour gangs that it would be best employed in support of - analogous to the way that Scimitars are better than Basilisks for supporting fast shield gangs - don't exist, because "armour" and "speed" are difficult to reconcile. You won't solve that problem by changing the Oneiros.
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Laevateinn
Elanus Risk Control Cognitive Distortion
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Posted - 2011.06.12 09:15:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Marlona Sky 2. This game has become all about remote reps. Ships that receive a personal repair bonus are instantly passed up in favor of ships with a resistant bonus or HP increase bonus. It was suggested in a thread that the personal rep amount bonus should also include repairs incoming as well. This might help a bit to add more ships as an option to todays fleet fights.
It would add more ships into fights that are, but it still wouldn't fix the overriding issue that fleets these days have large logistics backbones, and that even a single logistics ship can tank a ship against 3-4, even 5 other ships depending on what the enemy brings. So when there are 15+ logistics, the numbers needed to fight on par with it escalate rapidly, commeth the blob. I'm not saying that Logistics should be penalized, but in such numbers, it's like a force multiplier without a limit.
That's probably the way it should be since damage isn't capped purely by numbers, but I'd probably reduce the amount repaired by RR modules by about 20-30%, or impose a stacking penalty. One designed in such a way that it wouldn't affect the small gang with a few logistics, but one that would scale up against larger blobs. The Oneiros also needs some adjustments to be easier cap stable in line with the Scimitar, it's shield counterpart, either through increased fitting and capacitor possibilities, or make it a better repairer to compensate for its lower speed and cap instability. Remote repairing someone in combat should also give an aggression status, something to start breaking up the neutral RR problem. (But this is it's own dead horse, flogged many a time and sadly no progress)
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Amy Elteam
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Posted - 2011.06.12 10:01:00 -
[77]
Some easy balance changes
* Mining barges & exhumers warp at 6AU/Sec - reduce this to 3AU/Sec like every other medium sized ship, except in the case of the Skiff which is supposed to be more agile. * Mining Barges are all 3750m^3 packaged, they should be bigger - 5k for a Procurer/Skiff, 10k for Retriever/Mack, 15k for Covetor/Hulk * Orcas should have their warp speed dropped maybe to 2AU/Sec to be more consistent with their size. * Give the Ibis missile launcher hardpoints so caldari noobs can use missles on their noobship. * Switch the laser Cap use bonus on the Impairor to be a laser damage bonus, it's practically impossible to tax the capacitor on this ship using the lasers that fit (given the tiny power grid). * Supercarriers should have their primary skill requirement of Capital Ships 1 raised to Capital Ships 4, since Capital ships 3 is a pre-req for the secondary skill requirement
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.06.12 10:55:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: mkint
Okay, now that's all kinds of stupid. The choice is never ever ever "should I bring an oneiros or a scimi to this armor fleet" the choice is "should I bring an oneiros or a guardian." Right now the guardian has the better buffer and makes your fleet nearly immune to capacitor warfare, oneiros dies easier and has a wasted bonus.
Between basi and scimi, I don't know why anyone would fly a scimi as it appears to have the same problems the onei has but worse. I don't fly either shield logi though, so I couldn't say exactly how to bring it into balance.
However, by your ignorant trolling, I'm guessing you've never had to make the decision of what logi to have along in a fleet.
Generally, when questioning someone else's credibility, it's not a good idea to completely demolish your own in the same breath.
The problem with the Oneiros is that the fast armour gangs that it would be best employed in support of - analogous to the way that Scimitars are better than Basilisks for supporting fast shield gangs - don't exist, because "armour" and "speed" are difficult to reconcile. You won't solve that problem by changing the Oneiros.
Well... a radical idea that would change the face of fleet combat forever would be to have every ship take longer and longer to lock a target as more and more people start locking the same target.
First it would mean in a large scale fight, one FC calling primary and secondary targets would be impossible as it would take forever and a day for a couple hundred ships to try and lock the same target. Think of it like simulated line of sight combat. Squad leaders leading their own squad of ships going after separate targets than the other squads would become more practical. No longer would the fleet that has the most combined EHP and logistical backbone determine the outcome of the fight. Personal repair ships would be a viable option. Mixed fleets. The list goes on and on.
It would be a glorious ball of chaos, flashes of lights as ships explode at the same time. A real space battle. Not this bull**** we have now where the whole fleet align to a celestial object and with little to no brain powered presses F1, F2, F3 and broadcasts for reps if he is called primary. Maybe even blasters would be usefully because you don't have to worry about being alpha'd in three seconds so you have time to get in face **** range.
Anyways, I'm getting carried away with dreaming how much more dynamic and fun large fleet fights could be. Am I the only one who would like combat to change into something like that?
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.06.12 11:19:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 12/06/2011 11:21:16
Quote: I personally don't mind the dramiel being so fast and so agile, what bothers me is that it can do all the things on that list at the same time.
This is also what bothers me. There should be some kind of tradeoff for that kind of speed, and Angel ships just don't have it.
One of the most common counter-whines from Dramiel pilots is "oh it's ok, because a Daredevil will still kill it" - well if anything, needing an even more expensive and far more nichT pirate frigate to kill the first one is a bad sign in and of itself.
Speed nerf is an excellent start, and it should remain a fast frigate, but the vesatility of that ship does border on ridiculous and there should be some drawback to flying it. (And no, cost is not a drawback. ISK is not a balancing factor. Don't believe me? Look at supercarriers.)
Quote: - I expected a bigger dram nerf, tbh. But, baby steps are good steps as long as you guys are willing to iterate on them in a reasonable timeframe.
Also wanted to mention how much I agree with this. It's fantastic to see CCP taking an interest in the smaller aspects of balancing this game, and I look forward to seeing what else is on the cards for later patches _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Swynet
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Posted - 2011.06.12 12:51:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: mkint Looks like the scimi needs more midslots and more powergrid.
Nonsense logic leads to nonsense conclusions. There's nothing the matter with the Scimitar. Also, your comparison fo Oneiros with Guardian is absurd - you should be comparing the Oneiros with the Scimitar.
Don't look at the base stats but what you can do with, I don't like that much some scimi remoting my triple plated vindi, or an oneiros remoting my tengu. So compare the guardian with the oneiros and the scimi with the basilisk seems apropriate. Now if you whant to discuss about ship's stats and bringing them at the same level then we must put them all together.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.06.12 14:13:00 -
[81]
Quote: Don't look at the base stats but what you can do with, I don't like that much some scimi remoting my triple plated vindi, or an oneiros remoting my tengu. So compare the guardian with the oneiros and the scimi with the basilisk seems apropriate. Now if you whant to discuss about ship's stats and bringing them at the same level then we must put them all together.
You're missing the point in a pretty epic way here. You're looking at it as: Armour - Shield
When it's actually more like Used in big groups - more mobile/independant.
Both the Basilisk and Scimitar rep shields, but the way they actually work in a gang is rather different. Same principle with the Oneiros and Guardian. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Swynet
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Posted - 2011.06.12 14:37:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote: Don't look at the base stats but what you can do with, I don't like that much some scimi remoting my triple plated vindi, or an oneiros remoting my tengu. So compare the guardian with the oneiros and the scimi with the basilisk seems apropriate. Now if you whant to discuss about ship's stats and bringing them at the same level then we must put them all together.
You're missing the point in a pretty epic way here. You're looking at it as: Armour - Shield
When it's actually more like Used in big groups - more mobile/independant.
Both the Basilisk and Scimitar rep shields, but the way they actually work in a gang is rather different. Same principle with the Oneiros and Guardian.
Pretty sure I'm totally missing the point in a very Epic way, but the fact is the Guardian cover all the fields better than the Oneiros. I see Guardians in low, scimis and basilisks, I never see an Oneiros een if OC I'm not everywhere in the game. Hell even in SISI I haven't seen a single one while Guardians yes.
Is it really interesting to start EFT'ing when it's pretty obvious one is over used and the other don't or rarely? Scimis I see them often in low/null and hell even in high sec, Basilisks they're every where, Guardians you don't need to go far way from jita 4-4, rens, dodixie and the chock gates to see plenty of them has neutral reps for griefers of all kinds.
Now when you cross one Oneiros at those points please send me an IG e-mail so I can screen shot it. Are you still sure I'm missing the point?
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.06.12 14:38:00 -
[83]
Way out-of-box thought (read: smelly brain-fart)
New bonus for Oneiros and Scimitar in place of the tracking link one: X%/level of incoming damage is converted into capacitor energy through transducers installed in the shield generators.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.12 15:04:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Swynet Are you still sure I'm missing the point?
Yep, the Oneiros is p much fine for an agile self sufficient small gang repper, only problem is that in current eve agile and armor tanking don't usually mix - like someone pointed out. So rebalance the drawbacks of armor and shield tanking so that armor tanks are viable for fast skirmish gangs as well, then see how many Oneiroses are about.
Anyway, I'm hoping the devs are reading the Dram discussion here and elsewhere, hopefully we will see some added changes as well as those in the OP like lock range nerf in addition OR INSTEAD of scan resolution (17km base lockrange would be lovely) and slight fitting or DPS nerfs etc... As well as a culture of re-visiting and re-evaluating changes periodically! ----------
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Mekhana
Gallente Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.06.12 17:21:00 -
[85]
CCP Tallest you are quickly becoming my favorite dev.
I'm looking forward to hearing from you news from hybrids and Gallente ship changes.
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Dragons revenge
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Posted - 2011.06.12 17:28:00 -
[86]
hello CCP Tallest, I think that if we incorporate EFT with EVE somehow would really be a big deal. For example, adding it to when your sitting in station. Testing your fits and seeing in station how it looks. Based on upcoming Incaria, maybe in pilots quarters. Now of course, it would not have to be EFT just a program like it. I use EFT so that im not spending all my cold hard isk on modules that will not help me. Best Regards, Dragons Revenge
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Marketeerer
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Posted - 2011.06.12 17:35:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Raimo
in current eve agile and armor tanking don't usually mix - like someone pointed out. So rebalance the drawbacks of armor and shield tanking so that armor tanks are viable for fast skirmish gangs as well, then see how many Oneiroses are about.
While thats somewhat correct, I feel the need to dwell on that statement. Buffer armor tanking slows you down and isnt great for skirmish. Shield buffer tanking raises your sig and isnt great for skirmish. Active tanking either way does not affect your speed/sig.
The trade off is having free lowslots or midslots - more damage/speed for a quicker hit and run for sheild vs more midslots for ewar/tackle to prevent damage for armor.
And when you start doing large buffer tanks with logi support to have a 40v40 fight I stop calling you a skirmish gang. Shield buffer tanks are quite common however because they arnt bad for skirmish, and scale up well to larger fleets. Go back a few years and shield tanks were quite rare, and scimi's were virtually unheard of. The game hasnt really changed, just the current player trend favors the universally decent shield buffer tank for both skirmish and larger fleets.
There's a reason that shield favors skirmish ships, and thats why a large amount of minmatar ships (you know, the guys with the skirmish warfare racial bonus's?) are shield tankers. and that they have ACTIVE REP shield bonus's. Caldari have resistance bonus's for their racial Siege bonus's.
On the whole, I feel that its working as intended - bring the right ship for the right job, and dont complain that the wrong ship is the wrong ship.
Now, that all said, I agree the Oneiros needs a buff.
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Zanes Shoubje
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Posted - 2011.06.12 17:44:00 -
[88]
Changes look alright to me.
Small changes, put it on TQ and see what happens. Rinse and repeat if needed.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy Spreadsheets Online
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Posted - 2011.06.12 17:51:00 -
[89]
Can max skills warrior 2s from a non-bonused ship for example a carrier take out a dramiel now or do they just mwd into dram gun range and slowly die to the dram?
Isnt there a balancing decision that maxed warrior 2s **** all small frigs?
As for logistics; they are fine more or less warp speed stuff needs a big overhaul for like all ships. oneiros is the only one which is slightly lesser then the other 3. It's mainly an ehp factor i think the buff might be better placed in buffing tracking links themselves because they are utterly useless as it is and need a buff. Though at the same time you would need to buff damps else you risk leaving those behind.
Or take the 2nd tracking link bonus and replace it with the usual gallente 25-50% drone dps/durability bonus. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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mkint
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Posted - 2011.06.12 18:00:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Swynet Are you still sure I'm missing the point?
Yep, the Oneiros is p much fine for an agile self sufficient small gang repper, only problem is that in current eve agile and armor tanking don't usually mix - like someone pointed out. So rebalance the drawbacks of armor and shield tanking so that armor tanks are viable for fast skirmish gangs as well, then see how many Oneiroses are about.
Anyway, I'm hoping the devs are reading the Dram discussion here and elsewhere, hopefully we will see some added changes as well as those in the OP like lock range nerf in addition OR INSTEAD of scan resolution (17km base lockrange would be lovely) and slight fitting or DPS nerfs etc... As well as a culture of re-visiting and re-evaluating changes periodically!
Except the guardian has a higher agility. And the oneiros needs more armor rigs to even be functional thus losing out on speed. Plus the guardian has a smaller sig radius. Comparing the onei to the scimi might be okay in theory, but even if the onei was given speed and agility buffs and sig buffs, and any other buffs you want to give it without a 200 PG buff, when the choice is between a pair (or trio) of guardians and oneis, the better buffer and a bonus that practically negates capacitor warfare makes the guardian a clear better choice. A 200 PG buff will at least make the onei somewhat attractive, and maybe beefing up the tracking link bonus from 10% to 15% would make it actually desirable.
Still not a shield pilot myself, but should something be done for the scimi so it can take advantage of it's tracking link bonus?
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Jaigar
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Posted - 2011.06.12 18:48:00 -
[91]
Originally by: mkint Edited by: mkint on 11/06/2011 20:15:06 Regarding logi buff: the warp speed buff is alright I guess, but kinda meh unless you are in a very specific kind of fleet.
The biggest disparity between the guardian and the oneiros, the oneiros is limited by the fitting choices it must make that the Guardian does not need to make. An oneiros must choose between it's buffer (a 1600mm plate), it's RR bonus, and it's tracking link bonus. Oneiros can only run 2 of the 3 things it needs to be competitive with a Guardian, and the pilot even needs implants to even do that. A guardian can run all 3, it's 1600mm buffer, it's RR's and it's energy transfers, and it still ends up with a better speed and agility than the oneiros. The only advantage to the oneiros is that it has a higher potential RR, but it must sacrifice both tank and it's link bonus to get it. Increasing onei's power grid would make up for the differences. (I also wouldn't complain if it got a buff to it's tracking link bonus, but I don't see that being it's biggest weakness.)
Even with major Oneiros buffs, the oneiros would add to the weapons performance of a couple ships, but guardians can essentially make an entire fleet immune to capacitor warfare. Making onei tracking links into friendly AOE would make up for that difference, but would probably end up overpowered.
-onei needs 200 added to it's base PG to bring it more in line with the guardian. A 300 powergrid buff would do even more to bring it into line.
note: I don't fly shield tanks, but I'd imagine a scimitar could be looked at in the same way.
edit: just taking a look at basi vs scimi loadouts, a basi can take advantage of all it's bonuses and still have 60% more buffer than a scimi that is only taking advantage of 1 bonus. Looks like the scimi needs more midslots and more powergrid.
Theres several assumptions you make that are dangerous. First of is assuming that ships should be able to perform the same in the same scenarios. For example: when you compare the scimitar and bassy, you are looking at eHP. What you aren't looking at is how the scimi's speed and sig tank make is incredibly nice (one of the reasons they are so popular in the tourney). Now this same arguement doesnt hold with the oneiros because its slots and sig radius don't hold as well as the scimitar. HOWEVER, there are some pretty interesting things you can do with 2 guardian+oneiros with oneiros loaded with tracking links and receiving cap-transfers from the guardians. Be careful with EFT. Theres several factors you eliminate when you reduce a ship to only those numbers. I think the oneiros needs some small buff, perhaps only a sig radius change down to 75 (and perhaps additional sensor strength). But thats it.
Also I would love a trimark change. Right now its definately way too strong. 1 trimark= 115%, 2 trimarks=132.25%, 3 trimarks= 152.0875%. The gain of using trimarks is just so signficant that any buffer armor ship has to use them. If you want to use any other type of rig your tank loss is just too significant.
And d
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.12 19:08:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Raimo self sufficient
Anyway, I don't disagree that the Oneiros couldn't use some form of love.
But the only direct ship changes asked about in the OP (for now, I hope) are for the Dramiel anyway... ;) ----------
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.12 19:52:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/06/2011 19:52:28 It is perfectly valid to compare the Oneiros to the Guardian, because they both rep armor. The only even theoretical time you should be using an Oneiros over a Guardian is when you are the ONLY logistics on the field or you're doing the semi impractical 3 guardian/1 ony Incursion lolPVE thing. Again, I'd really like to see those tracking link bonuses get traded away for something that emphasizes the "solo logi" nature of the ships - which IMO points towards active tank bonuses.
And before anyone says anything, yes I have almost exclusively flown logistics for the last couple years. I've been in literally hundreds of fights - maybe a thousand or more - as the solo logi (under sentry fire, no less!). Fights that are small enough for a solo logi (even armor repping) exist, and are common. But I wouldn't use an Ony at this point... it just massively lacks survivability. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.12 20:31:00 -
[94]
The Onieros is just inherently badly designed. The first point is that the Onieros works much, much better fit like a Scimitar in a shield buffer tanked configuration, due to PG and mobility. This means that a pair of Onieros cannot really rep each-other like a pair of Scimitars could. Secondly Since 'roaming' Armor tanked ships don't really exist, at least they usually aren't worth using in small enough numbers where you'd just take Guardians.
I'm not really sure how you would 'fix' that. PG boost + some sort of wacky Plate mass reduction bonus? Would keep it mobile, armor tanked and with enough grid to actually fit 3 large remote reps. Still wouldn't really help it too much since there isn't really a roaming-armor tank gang format that can make use of it. ---
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.06.12 21:23:00 -
[95]
CCP tallest, you are now officially on my good list, along with team BFF and team Gridlock (as opposed to all the monkeys who came up with Incarna and PI, who are on my sh*tlist).
CCP tallest, you guys really, REALLY need to have a permanent balancing team. This is really critical to the game working well.
When you get around to fixing Hybrids, I will send you a six pack of decent beer.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.06.12 22:20:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Bomberlocks
When you get around to fixing Hybrids, I will send you a six pack of decent beer.
I would also like to contribute to the CCP alcohol fund if hybrids/hybrid ships get a look-at. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2011.06.12 22:35:00 -
[97]
For oneiros to be really viable it would need to have max rep ability much superior to guardian which has cap transfer chain on top of its reps which renders neuting almost useless against them. Just being resistant to common amarr ecm and working in single units is not enough to make it worth using.
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Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
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Posted - 2011.06.13 01:35:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Mekhana CCP Tallest you are quickly becoming my favorite dev.
I'm looking forward to hearing from you news from hybrids and Gallente ship changes.
This.
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington I would also like to contribute to the CCP alcohol fund if hybrids/hybrid ships get a look-at.
I'd be happy to spare a few euros for beer money. See CCP? Fix hybrids, get beer.
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Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.13 02:04:00 -
[99]
Logistics changes look good so far, though I'd like to see them maintain a more capable combat presence.
Dramiel changes are awesome!
@everyone else:
I don't know about Tallest, but I'm pretty much ignoring every other post here regarding different ships. There's a huge number of ships in this game, and you're completely detracting from the work at hand.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.13 02:13:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 13/06/2011 02:15:25
Originally by: Juliette DuBois For oneiros to be really viable it would need to have max rep ability much superior to guardian which has cap transfer chain on top of its reps which renders neuting almost useless against them. Just being resistant to common amarr ecm and working in single units is not enough to make it worth using.
Working (well) in single units is ABSOLUTELY enough to make it worth using. The problem is that it really doesn't, because a solo logistics needs an active tank - which the Ony can't field. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.06.13 07:45:00 -
[101]
Re: Logistics.
In addition to tweaks to Oneiros, why not cut the range bonus on the slugger/stationary logistics (Basilisk/Guardian) by 33-50%?
Reinforces the idea of Scimitar/Oneiros being the roamers choice and makes them valuable in their own right simple due to range advantage.
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Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.06.13 09:43:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 09:43:50 I know it's generally not developer policy to respond in F&I threads to avoid creating some unnatural focal points, but this thread is an official game development sticky for which player feedback was requested; if there's one situation where it's completely appropriate for you guys to reply to F&I posts, it's in these kinds of threads. Communication is a two way street, and to be honest, CCP as a whole is notoriously horrible at dialogue.
If you would make a point of replying to our points as time permits, it could be very beneficial to these types of discussions. Focal points are exactly what this balance thread needs, and we would love to know what you guys are thinking and why. The more we know about your chain of thought, the better our input can be.
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Ramadawn
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Posted - 2011.06.13 10:55:00 -
[103]
I don't mind the speed so much. I do mind the DPS. And why does it have drones? Bring down the the DPS ALOT and get rid of the drones.
Also no faction frig should every be better than a T2 frig in the the T2s area of speciality. IE, inty should be fastest, and AF should do the most damage/have the best tank. Otherwise WHY have them?
and T1 frigates need to be made better. Simply for the sake of making new players more PVP competative.
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Ogogov
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.13 15:56:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
Originally by: Mekhana CCP Tallest you are quickly becoming my favorite dev.
I'm looking forward to hearing from you news from hybrids and Gallente ship changes.
This.
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington I would also like to contribute to the CCP alcohol fund if hybrids/hybrid ships get a look-at.
I'd be happy to spare a few euros for beer money. See CCP? Fix hybrids, get beer.
A dev, dedicated to balance issues?
MY DREAMS, THEY HAVE COME TRUE!!
In order to fix the content-less-ness of my posting:
The Dramiel changes look good but I do have to ask why it's got two drones.
Logistics buff is very welcome and yes, I do feel the poor old Oneiros needs a look.
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Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2011.06.13 17:42:00 -
[105]
Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.
Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm
Need more speed nerfing to 430 m/s (this ship just a frig not interceptor) and their FPS is too high, so need more drone bandwidth nerfing to 5m3.
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Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2011.06.13 17:48:00 -
[106]
Oh i forgot. Please revise the Supercaps too, because those ships is the most unbalanced and overpowered ships in game.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.13 19:08:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Re: Logistics.
In addition to tweaks to Oneiros, why not cut the range bonus on the slugger/stationary logistics (Basilisk/Guardian) by 33-50%?
Reinforces the idea of Scimitar/Oneiros being the roamers choice and makes them valuable in their own right simple due to range advantage.
what's the lore reason for nerfing guardian range exactly? I have no problem with some love for oneros.. as long as you don't make it the guardian with a different skin..or worse the guardian replacement of the month.
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Rastigan
Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.14 01:18:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Sannikoff I suggest to start Hybrid weapon
THIS PLEASE...
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Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.14 07:11:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Hun Jakuza Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.
Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm
Need more speed nerfing to 430 m/s (this ship just a frig not interceptor) and their FPS is too high, so need more drone bandwidth nerfing to 5m3.
If you're going to drop it to one small drone, get rid of them entirely. I hate ships that have a deranged drone capacity. Stabber = 5m3 & 5 Mb/s bandwidth? That's just stupid; move the DPS over to the weapons. One drone small isn't even worth releasing and controlling; I'm not entirely sure two is on anything but a Frigate.
Cruisers should have minimum 3 small or none, Battle Cruisers at least 3 Medium, and Battleships should always field at least 4 Medium Drones. Alternative always being move Drone DPS to a Weapon bonus, or anything that calculates to better weapon DPS in some fashion, be it range, tracking, ROF, or Damage Multiplier. Just my opinion.
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Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2011.06.14 08:13:00 -
[110]
Another suggestions.
Please change the capital online. Increase supercaps and titan build times. Super Capitals building times is too short and their costs is too low, now we seeing 300+ supcaps fleets. As the old drakes fleet. This is horrible for small alliances in 0.0 and this is make superblobs and superlags.
The SC numbers groving with +300 every single months.
When CCP changed 0.0 they told to us, they want more small entities in 0.0, but when they changed motherships, no chanches to survive for small corps or alliances there. Need to slowing this supercapital trends.
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Nikuno
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Posted - 2011.06.14 08:32:00 -
[111]
The change to warp speed for logistics might make it more consistent internally but will change nothing about the ships' performance or use. As such I see it as a cosmetic tweak tbh and nothing to do with balancing, leaving the important imbalances within the ship class that need to be addressed to be ignored for years to come. The only fix I can see for logistic ships to become balanced is for the tracking link bonus to be replaced by something more useful to the ship role. Cap transfer is an obvious aid to the primary repair role of these ships, enhancing the tracking of other ships is an altogether different function and doesn't sit comfortably with the primary role as a remote repair ship.
The dramiel needs to lose some of it's omnipotence in the frigate class. For me the removal of 1 or 2 drones on top of the changes mentioned would achieve that nicely.
Finally, as an extra balancing act if you're looking into it, how about addressing the Eris? Just swapping the (7?) high slots to be purely hybrid based would be a decent starting point (this would set it on a par with the sabre, purely from a weaponry balance point, though it would still be lacking in other regards given the 2mid /4 low slot layout). The missile slots make the ship third class and I really would like to see some reason to begin using these (leaving aside the general discussion about hybrid imbalance).
However it pans out, I'm at least encouraged that some of the niggly little imbalances are at least being looked at by CCP and our opinion sought - I just hope some of the players' vision makes it into the end changes.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.14 10:53:00 -
[112]
FWIW, still regarding the Dram, what I'd most want to see - after these changes to it (though lockrange instead/ in addition to scan resolution+somehow additionally nerfing it's fitting/cap/damage output) - what I would most love to see would be a 5-15% speed increase across all of the frigate and cruiser classes, balanced accordingly.
Maybe even improving fitting for speed a tad? :D
Speed is fun and it would *definitely* improve the solo and small gang gameplay experience bringing back some of the fun that was lost in the nano nerf, please do consider this CCP! (and no I don't want old nanos back but ATM the game could definitely use some more mobile boats, and the game does need some balance changes to keep things fresh for all)
Oh and hybrids ofc ----------
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 05:41:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Hun Jakuza Another suggestions.
Please change the capital online. Increase supercaps and titan build times. Super Capitals building times is too short and their costs is too low, now we seeing 300+ supcaps fleets. As the old drakes fleet. This is horrible for small alliances in 0.0 and this is make superblobs and superlags.
The SC numbers groving with +300 every single months.
When CCP changed 0.0 they told to us, they want more small entities in 0.0, but when they changed motherships, no chanches to survive for small corps or alliances there. Need to slowing this supercapital trends.
The capital ship building array should not be a closed box. It should be open and anyone on grid with it should be able to see what is being built and how far along it is. Timer on ship completion. Just one of many things that could be done...
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Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2011.06.15 06:47:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Hun Jakuza Another suggestions.
Please change the capital online. Increase supercaps and titan build times. Super Capitals building times is too short and their costs is too low, now we seeing 300+ supcaps fleets. As the old drakes fleet. This is horrible for small alliances in 0.0 and this is make superblobs and superlags.
The SC numbers groving with +300 every single months.
When CCP changed 0.0 they told to us, they want more small entities in 0.0, but when they changed motherships, no chanches to survive for small corps or alliances there. Need to slowing this supercapital trends.
The capital ship building array should not be a closed box. It should be open and anyone on grid with it should be able to see what is being built and how far along it is. Timer on ship completion. Just one of many things that could be done...
That's not solve the super caps problems, need to change their price to minimum 30-35 billions and build times to 2x or 3x times longer.
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.15 08:05:00 -
[115]
I think someone mentioned it already, but it could be interesting to swap the tracking link bonus on the Oneiros/Scimitar to a hefty active tanking bonus, along the lines where a medium T2 rep/booster would equal 2-3 large remote reps tanked. That would be great for small gangs (5-10 pilots) where you are the only logi.
It is a bigger change and would probably have to be balanced to avoid abuse with large/XL reps like we saw with the AB suggestion for assault frigs, but it adds to their flavour and is overall far more useful than the current one.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.15 10:08:00 -
[116]
Can you guys take a look on the sacrilege please and expand the bonuses to Heavy Missiles ? The Sacrilege is the only ship in is class that is not able to fire at more then 35km without loosing 1 of their bonuses... All the other Hacs can do it.
Thank you
Strength and Honour |
Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.06.16 11:10:00 -
[117]
Can we please try and get this back on topic to the Dramiel/logistics change? Making the devs have to sift through posts on supercarriers and Gallente is not going to make this go any faster. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Hrug
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:46:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Marlona Sky Edited by: Marlona Sky on 12/06/2011 05:46:24 ...
5. EAS - They are too paper thin.
...
7. EW drones - ECM drones need a nerf. Introduce small and medium web drones. Buff the other EW drones to bring them in line with the hopefully nerfed ECM drones.
+1
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 15:57:00 -
[119]
As for the dramiel change, not really sure if it is enough to given that he still fields a lot of DPS with a very high range but I guess I leave this discussion to people that fly more frigs than I do.
I'm glad at the changes to the logis, Oneiros does need some help. As others pointed out there are hardly situations where it would be sensible to chose a oneiros over a guardian since the gang type he has to work with tends to be rather slow anyway.
Back in the day before QR, the oneiros was nearly ok, you could nano it reasonable well and the speed and range tank did give you a rather good defense against other sluggish targets. However a lot has changed since this time.
In general it would need more PG, a bit more base speed and a lot better cap to make better use of the meds with a armor tank than filling them with cap rechargers or to be more stable in a shield tank nano fit.
A extra 50m¦ of dronebay wouldn't hurt to carry reserve drones for RR(what make a considerable amount of his repping power that is not preventable by ECM or damps) and giving it some room for spare light drones for self defense purpose against tacklers(since a single logi can't archive survivability by RR if he uses range as his defense, it should have other options preventing the enemy from taking it out of the fight quickly).
Also double his RR drone amount bonus would help it to get even with the Guardian on repping power(4 + 1.5 in drones vs 5 + 0.5 in drones as LRR count).
Active tanking bonuses are a rather bad idea on it, since they are useless as soon as you work with more than one logi(what will be most of the time) and it puts even more pressure on his limited cap. Resistance bonuses would have some merit as they also work well together with incoming rep and improve his EHP.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:09:00 -
[120]
Edited by: fukier on 16/06/2011 20:11:16 this is just fluff... but what if they made the gallente logi have a cap recharge bonus? or how about higher sensor strength so it does not need eccm?
i am not sure about liangs idea about a repper bonus... maybe a hp bonus?
personally i think logis are way too op... its kinda bull that i can fit a full rack of large rr on my cruiser... i would much rather see all logis get nerfed so they can only use medium sized rr... but thats just me...
as for the dram fix... yeah get rid of its drone aswell and now you have a all round good ship... as it stands now its way to hard to kill them... but somepeople are pretty good at it... the problem is with balance when you nerf something you now have someother ship becomming the new fotm... but i guess we can address this when and if the next op ship becomes used too much...
edit: to the guys post above me... hells yeah i like the idea of the gal logi getting a bigger drone bay to use lets say 5 heavy rep bots? that could help with its short commings
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Rikki Retardo
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:19:00 -
[121]
Good area to concentrate on :)
I believe there are a quite a few tech 1 frigates that need some ballancing. i try to pvp in every ship available but there are some frigates that are just not up to the job. I realize that there are purpose built frigates like scanners and miners which in my opinion can be ignored. That being said every combat frigate should be up to the job of combat but unfortunatly there are quite a few which are not. a ballancing of tech 1 frigates would have a broad appeal and we may see less pilots in rifters.
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Preestar
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:05:00 -
[122]
says goodbye to his 13.5km/s dramiel :(
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.17 05:43:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Rikki ******o Good area to concentrate on :)
I believe there are a quite a few tech 1 frigates that need some ballancing. i try to pvp in every ship available but there are some frigates that are just not up to the job. I realize that there are purpose built frigates like scanners and miners which in my opinion can be ignored. That being said every combat frigate should be up to the job of combat but unfortunatly there are quite a few which are not. a ballancing of tech 1 frigates would have a broad appeal and we may see less pilots in rifters.
It's all about the ship tier system that's really holding the game back. It's relevant for the first few days of gaming and after that it just means that over half of the T1 ships available ingame are totally useless for PVP, especially in frigate and cruiser hulls. And yes, I do agree that a slight general T1 frigate boost wouldn't hurt. (Maybe starting with the overall frigate & cruiser 5-15% speed boost I suggested)
----------
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cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers Ignore This.
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Posted - 2011.06.18 11:38:00 -
[124]
Leave the Dram as it is. Stop making everything about this game boring and tedious. You guys hate fun dont you? Ok so you are going to nerf the dram, are you going to buff any of the countless **** frigs? Are you ****.
Yea I am somewhat mad bro.
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LilH8rBoi
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Posted - 2011.06.18 12:02:00 -
[125]
****! if they make the dram slow i am ****ing quitting eve! love to fly drams.
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ballanemine svir
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Posted - 2011.06.18 12:04:00 -
[126]
They are pricy compared to ceptors. So u cant compare it to an ares for instanse. OMG OMG! LEAVE IT ALONE!
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Lin-Young Borovskova
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Posted - 2011.06.18 12:07:00 -
[127]
Originally by: LilH8rBoi ****! if they make the dram slow i am ****ing quitting eve! love to fly drams.
Contract me ya stuff, I'll make good use.
Ho and please close the door behind you. "Cancer killed thousands and keeps killing hundreds.Aids killed thousands and keeps killing hundreds. And human economics kill how many every day?" |
Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2011.06.18 14:42:00 -
[128]
I don't know how anyone can be surprised that the dram is getting needed. Really?!? CCP's fault for letting it go on and on and on....
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Azurialli
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Posted - 2011.06.18 19:01:00 -
[129]
Well I think that the basilisk also needs some love.
Please give it a low sig radius and/or a shield resistance bonus.
Thus lacking the additional speed tank of the Scimitar, but having a powerful local shield tank.
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Van Derka
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Posted - 2011.06.19 07:25:00 -
[130]
logi ships are a joke, even with the extra warp speed. They way fragile and without maxed skills, other ships can do the same job and be more cap stable and have more tank. Basically you have to get into a carrier to do any real/significant logi work. Pairing up so the bonus can can be ampd, the fleet getting whats left... I was disspointed, I expect a carrier wont be so...
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guibio
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Posted - 2011.06.19 13:13:00 -
[131]
NERF DRAKE FFS.
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Princess Cellestia
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Posted - 2011.06.19 16:50:00 -
[132]
Whine Whine Whine, NERF SUPERS. 20% damage reduction to fighter bombers would work, or 100%, and a 100% nerf to tank. That would be great. These guys want to kill supers with their negligibly nerfed Dramiels.
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NosubstanceHere
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Posted - 2011.06.20 00:10:00 -
[133]
Edited by: NosubstanceHere on 20/06/2011 00:15:16 Edited by: NosubstanceHere on 20/06/2011 00:10:53 How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls? Minmatar have speed and an excellent weapons system for pvp, Caldari have ECM and an excellent pve weapons system, Amarr have armor resistance bonuses and excellent weapons system in general.
What do Gallente hulls have? Hybrid turret bonuses and large drone bays on a handful of ships. Getting in range (assuming u can) nerfs most of the blasters usefulness. How about you swap the hybrid damage bonuses for increased hybrid falloff and the drone damage/ehp bonuses for ship EHP increases. I mean if ur gonna be a brick, why not be a bit thick.
But seriously, bonuses to hybrid damage is a joke and every other race can use drones, nothing special about Gallente hulls in this regard. Sure some Galente hulls have large drone bays, but they are usually gimped when the ships drone bandwidth is a complete joke. 50 Mbit/sec for the Brutix/EOS!?! 75 Mbit/sec for the myrmidon!?! Hell maybe even a bonus to reduce powergird requirements for hybrids would be awesome for a ship like the brutix.
I shall not conform and cross train. I will stay the course and be the miserable butt hurt Gallente pilot I have always been...but I wont like it. Save me CCP_Tallest...I'm mad bro and only you can console me <3.
Anyways....gonna have too cut me rant short...the goats somehow found their way out of my cellar again...
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.20 05:10:00 -
[134]
Edited by: fukier on 20/06/2011 05:11:58 rr is op... increase the fitting for large armor shield and energy transfers... make it so only bs's can fit them...
logistics cruisers are just that cruisers they have no right fitting full large rr plus energy... make it so logi cruisers can only fit medium rr..
secondly increase the drone bay of the galente logi so it can use 5 heavy armor rr drones...
3rd. change the 7.5% bonus to internal reps to also include external incoming reps... (basically ammar/caldari have a bonus to resistance which make internal/external rr more efficient gallente/minnie only have an internal rep bonus... if you make the external incoming rr have the same bonus as internal reps this will balance minnie/gallente to ammar/caldari...
4. blasters got a$$ buggered when the last speed nerf came... due to the mwd bloom being turned off by the scram... to fix this we need hybrid ammo to give a tracking bonus like on minnie ammo...
5. fix blasters by making them close range arties... increase the base damage decrease the rof... decrease the clip size...
6. fix railguns by making them the highest long range dps platform... to do this increase base damage and rof by 15%... change the caldari 10% to turrets optimal range to 5% to rof... now you have the rokh doing 1000dps at 100km.. also increase railguns clip size to compensate
7. change the falloff bonus on galente ships to a mass reduction bonus... (this will make gallente ships faster and the most agile... basically the way they should be)
8.boost sensor damps to include a reduction of max targets... a tech I sensor damp will now decrease max target by 1. tech II by 1.5... (note you will allways be able to target one target regardless of sensor damps on you)
9. decease dreads siege time to 5 min also half the activation cost
10. introduce capital nuets/nos make them exclusive to dreads and tech II dreads... (note capital nuets/nos only work on other capital ships siege mode increases cap usuage/drain amount and range)
11. nerf sc by introducing tech II dreads called juggernauts... they can use capital nuets... they can tank 1 ddd.. they have resist bonus for caldari/ammar and repper bonus for gallente/minnie... they can use capital webbers (which only work on capital ships and can only be used on a super cap when in siege mode siege mode increases cap usuage and range) and they can jump out with 60% cap plus they use an infinity point when in siege mode... note that juggers will have the sensor strength of bs's...
12. introduce tech II tier II bc's called heavy bombers... let them use citidel torps heavy bombs(think capital bomb that only hit capital ships has really really slow explosion velocity) it can also use coverts ops cloak/bridge
13. nerf fb by making it so they cant shoot at pos objects including ihubs (this should be the dreads/juggers job)
14. give assault frigs a 4th bonus
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Ogogov
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.20 13:48:00 -
[135]
ITT: Alot of discussion that has nothing to do with Logistics or Dramiels.
Let's try to make this effective and focused so CCP will give CCP Tallest a few other folks to help tackle larger issues. Because right now there's a couple of pages of comments on the Dram/Logi thing, and the rest of it is off-topic hurf-blurf about things we all know need attention, but are beyond the scope of this thread...
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CCP Tallest
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Posted - 2011.06.20 14:20:00 -
[136]
Originally by: DarkAegix are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?
They are on my list of things that need balancing.
Originally by: NosubstanceHere How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?
They are also on my list.
Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.
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Ineka
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Posted - 2011.06.20 14:25:00 -
[137]
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Originally by: DarkAegix are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?
They are on my list of things that need balancing.
Originally by: NosubstanceHere How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?
They are also on my list.
Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.
/lick
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Saile Litestrider
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Posted - 2011.06.20 15:46:00 -
[138]
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Originally by: DarkAegix are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?
They are on my list of things that need balancing.
Originally by: NosubstanceHere How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?
They are also on my list.
Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.
I know you probably already have this under control, but please don't forget about the other hybrid ships, it's not just Gallente, and a lot of people seem to forget this. In particular, I'd love the rokh to finally be useful. It's such a cool ship, and it's so hard to do much with it.
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.20 18:13:00 -
[139]
Originally by: CCP Tallest <snip> as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.
The main problem is that it has the slot layout of a shield tanker trying to fit into an armour tanking setting. Swapping a mid slot to a low would go a long way, making it essentially a mirror image of the Scimitar.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.06.20 18:16:00 -
[140]
I would test first how a dram with a nerfed dronebay would perform. same stats as today but an axed dronebay. either cut down to 1/3 of it or total removal.
then if things are still not "quite enough", I would start with agility, test some more and then speed. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.06.20 19:08:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Lucas Quaan
Originally by: CCP Tallest <snip> as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.
The main problem is that it has the slot layout of a shield tanker trying to fit into an armour tanking setting. Swapping a mid slot to a low would go a long way, making it essentially a mirror image of the Scimitar.
I think the Oneiros would benefit from a smaller sig and greater mobility too - and maybe a larger sig and less mobility for the Guardian.
The reason to fly an Oneiros over a Guardian should be to do with mobility and damage evasion, in the same way that Scimitars can be favoured over Basilisks for their greater speed and smaller sig. While the Scimitar is faster and has a smaller sig than a Basilisk (90 m vs. 65 m), the Oneiros bizarrely has a larger sig and a greater base align time than the Guardian - 80 m vs. 70 m sig, and align times of 7.9 s and 7.2 s! That's just crazy.
At least the Oneiros has a speed advantage, but it's only 7 m/s base, relative to the Guardian - 268 m/s vs. 261 m/s. It should be closer to the speed advantage that the Scimitar has over the Basilisk - 316 m/s vs. 240 m/s. |
Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.20 19:56:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Raimo on 20/06/2011 19:57:03
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Originally by: DarkAegix are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?
They are on my list of things that need balancing.
Originally by: NosubstanceHere How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?
They are also on my list.
Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.
Good stuff!
Re: the Dram, I'd also suggest you reconsider nerfing locking range in addition to, or instead of scan resolution. I'd look into the stats of combat inties like the Claw and Taranis for inspiration here. ---------- The HydraBreak Perspective
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.20 20:41:00 -
[143]
Edited by: fukier on 20/06/2011 20:47:29 does anyone else find it disturbing that a crusier can emote 334 dps tank out to 70km? if you have lets say 10 of them you get 3340 tank out to 70km... and thats not even taking resists into the equation... lets say you have 75% all round that means that 334 turns into 1336 tank per ship!!!!! multiply that by 10 and now you have 13360 dps tank out to 70km... thats crazy!!!
rr is way way way way way too op!
increase the fittings requirements for large rr mods... make it so only bs's can fit large rr!
a cruiser is a cruiser and its designed to use medium sized mods... under the nerfed parameters we now have a logi cruiser doing 170 per ship that means 10 ships will now emote 1706 dps out to 51km... with the standard 75% resists this means each ship will emote 680 dps tank and 10 ships will emote 6800 dps tank...
this is the way it should be...
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Alara IonStorm
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Posted - 2011.06.20 21:00:00 -
[144]
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Originally by: DarkAegix are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?
They are on my list of things that need balancing.
Originally by: NosubstanceHere How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?
They are also on my list.
Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.
My Hero.
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ITTigerClawIK
Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2011.06.20 21:17:00 -
[145]
can we get a look into T1 Cruiser Hulls also , the omen needs some more grid and CPU room especuly for newer player getting into them, also the bellicouse needs a total rework
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected]) |
Cid Rush
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Posted - 2011.06.20 21:41:00 -
[146]
Hybrid weapons needs to be balance If they are balance maybe Caldari ships wouldn't get laughed at for being used vs other race ship.
Besides from the drake for the ealier ships to be used Caldari ships seems to be under used vs all other races. I believe that is the cause of Hybrid weapons not being balance well with the projectile and laser weapons.
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Alara IonStorm
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Posted - 2011.06.20 21:44:00 -
[147]
Originally by: ITTigerClawIK can we get a look into T1 Cruiser Hulls also , the omen needs some more grid and CPU room especuly for newer player getting into them, also the bellicouse needs a total rework
^^ This ^^
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.20 21:51:00 -
[148]
Originally by: fukier does anyone else find it disturbing that a crusier can emote 334 dps tank out to 70km?
No. Logistics is no more overpowered than any other type of specialised T2 cruiser ability. Furthermore they are vulnerable to neuts, ecm, damps and are generally a softer target than the ships they support.
Yes, a good logistics squad can swing a battle and let you fight at a numerical disadvantage. No, they are not invincible.
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.20 22:13:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Lucas Quaan
Originally by: fukier does anyone else find it disturbing that a crusier can emote 334 dps tank out to 70km?
No. Logistics is no more overpowered than any other type of specialised T2 cruiser ability. Furthermore they are vulnerable to neuts, ecm, damps and are generally a softer target than the ships they support.
Yes, a good logistics squad can swing a battle and let you fight at a numerical disadvantage. No, they are not invincible.
really 10 guardians can be hurt by nueting? how many baalagorns you need? so i can fit large guns on a crusier now? i can fit large armor reps on a crusier now? i can fit large propulsion on a crusiers now? the fact is logi ships are the only ones that can fit a full rack of large mods on it... and no i dont think it being vulnerable to ecm is enough of a counter to this... i did not say they were invincible i am saying that in thier current form they are op...
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F1 F8
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Posted - 2011.06.20 22:22:00 -
[150]
Stop trolling this thread. You bring 10 logis, others will bring 10 dps ships, you diaf + cant kill anything, logis not op. |
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.20 23:17:00 -
[151]
Originally by: F1 F8 Stop trolling this thread. You bring 10 logis, others will bring 10 dps ships, you diaf + cant kill anything, logis not op.
1st off i am not a troll... secondly this is my personal opinion...
10 logi's can tank upto 20 abbadons... i am saying make it so 10 logi's can tank up to 10 abbadons... whats so bad about that? if you want to use large rr use it on bs's like you used to in domi's and phoons and such...
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Amy Elteam
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Posted - 2011.06.20 23:19:00 -
[152]
One of the problems I see with the Rokh as a rail sniper is that it's very easy to set up for long ranges, but, just when it gets into range territory where it's dominant it hits the hard 250km cap. Devs should seriously look at changing this hard range limit simply in the name of removing arbitrary restrictions on gameplay.
(then again, snipers are pretty much useless outside of teh alliance tournament right now because of probing).
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Blakein
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Posted - 2011.06.20 23:58:00 -
[153]
Hey mister dev, I know I'm gonna sound like a candid little boy, waiting since 2009 but please... Make the HEL decent.
Put a bonus on snowball launchers or whatever, but please anything but remotes.
Good choice for the Dramiel & hybrids otherwise o/
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.21 03:50:00 -
[154]
Originally by: fukier really 10 guardians can be hurt by nueting? how many baalagorns you need?
You'll need around 3 battleships with neuts to impact a group of 10 guardians. Of course, with an EHP of around 25k, you'll really only need 5 alpha battleships or 10 sleipnirs. You can't rep through instapop.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Layla Ravensclaw
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Posted - 2011.06.21 04:31:00 -
[155]
in my eyes should be blaster get a better range. Cus all targets over 2000m gets no or very low damage. And you can load ironcharges with 60 % rangebonus and a directhit has no effect? All small blaster for exapmle has got no better range than 1500m. The pulselaser has got ranges like 5000 until 8000m in the same class. and a autocaoonn from 5000m. All blaster should be increased in range so that you have a change to hit and kill in the same range.
And when i speak about weapon, should be also fix the number off rounds. Cus a 250 mm howitzer can carry 80 round, a 155mm railgun only 40 rounds!!
and all small projektilweps and hybridweps need ammo to fire. and in a long mission can you fire some hundered shoots during the mission. But the small frequenzycrystals in the laser dont broke.they should broke also after a couple of hours also.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.21 06:40:00 -
[156]
I am greatly impressed by this initiative and hope that it continues to live. I particularly appriciate the incremental nature of this instead of the nerfhammer.
The Dramiel probably does need a bit more of a nerf than just speed, or to be left with its speed but less DPS/EHP. But not much more. If you decide to nerf its powergrid in addition to its speed do it very lightly.
The Logistic ship buff feels mostly cosmetic. I see this effecting them most when a fleet is fleeing another. This buff will reduce logistic deaths by a small percentage. However I feel that if you want to balance logis you have to look at the Oneiros. A faster harder to hit 'skirmish' Oneiros could be the answer. A high Rep Onieros with a vulnerability to cap warefare is the other possible answer.
Could I suggest the removal of the teiring system for T1 frigates, cruisers and battlecruisers as the next project? Maybe just T1 frigates if you dont want to change too many ships at the same time. If the changes were made carefully so that none of the newly buffed ships were more powerful than the leading current top teir it would be very unlikely to create further balance issues.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.21 10:33:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Raimo Edited by: Raimo on 20/06/2011 19:57:03
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Originally by: DarkAegix are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?
They are on my list of things that need balancing.
Originally by: NosubstanceHere How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?
They are also on my list.
Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.
Good stuff!
Re: the Dram, I'd also suggest you reconsider nerfing locking range in addition to, or instead of scan resolution. I'd look into the stats of combat inties like the Claw and Taranis for inspiration here.
Oh, pre-emptively: IMHO nerfing capacitor is also a really good call - to make it easier to neut off and to make it harder to do good LR point tackle fits, PG nerf is probably ok tho IMHO not by a lot, and drone bay, I guess but maybe let it keep 2 drones? :)
(And do consider that lock range/scan resolution issue please ;) ) ---------- The HydraBreak Perspective
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Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.21 10:46:00 -
[158]
Balance!? Not in my EVE!
Keep up the good work, CCP Tallest
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Lelob
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Posted - 2011.06.21 11:35:00 -
[159]
Bleh dramiel doesn't need a speed nerf :/
Nerfing its speed seems like a short-sighted measure that doesn't really address the true problems of the dramiel, which are: Ability to project high dps at range at high speeds Large capacitor ensuring that dram pilot has lots of room to screw up and still recover Pgu allowing for mse, ab and mwd
It costs significantly more then any t2 frig, and so it makes sense that it would be better. Nerfing the racial bonuses it gets and fiddling with its drone bay would, for all intents and purposes, balance it out in frig battles. I think a nerf to its cap would be beneficial, assuming that nerf came with a bonus to warp disruptors cap usage (Not scramblers though, as the over-arching theme of a dramiel should be imo as an expensive fleet tackler). Doing so would make it still maintain the ability to provide strong fleet tackle, but would also make it more vulnerable to neuts. I'd suggest that a buff to warp disruptors could be substituted for one of the racial bonuses, which would in effect make it more of a fleet tackler and less of a curb-stomping mobile that has ruined frigate pvp.
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Benjamin Hamburg
Gallente Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:13:00 -
[160]
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s
Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.
Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm
Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)
Go ahead and kill the only viable ship in solo PVP. There is nothing else to add but FIX ****ING GALLENTE SHIP. We don't care about Dramiel!!!! Holy**** how can you fix all other ****ing ship in this ****ing game EXEPT GALLENTE ONES? I can't realize you are really speaking about dramiel here... I think you just convinced me to move on SWTOR once it will be released.
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:22:00 -
[161]
making the dramiel slower (but still the fastest) while giving it less powergrid and maybe reducing the drone bay looks like something everybody but the most narrowminded dramiel pilots will accept without many complaints.
This said you should look into the Nighthawk next - This too should be a fairly easy boost. You might not fix the real issues with the nighthawk but giving it about 150-200 extra powergrid before skills will allow it to fit something in the 7th hi-slot, using HAMs instead of Heavy Missiles - maybe using a cap booster etc etc...
Getting the Nighthawk out of a very boring "PvE-only-1-doable-fit" role would be epic. If you at the same time could reduce mass or increase the speed to make the range bonus work people would start to love you even more without compromising the other commandships as the Nighthawk will still have a poor dps... -
I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew... |
kala Alar
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Posted - 2011.06.21 14:17:00 -
[162]
Edited by: kala Alar on 21/06/2011 14:19:12 Dont nerf the dramiel !!! Buff Gallente / Hybrids. (proteus f.e. is the worst t3 in the game. You cant use it for anything )
Dramiels just fine.
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NosubstanceHere
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Posted - 2011.06.21 14:39:00 -
[163]
Edited by: NosubstanceHere on 21/06/2011 14:40:44 Edited by: NosubstanceHere on 21/06/2011 14:39:43
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Originally by: DarkAegix are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?
They are on my list of things that need balancing.
Originally by: NosubstanceHere How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?
They are also on my list.
Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.
07 CCP Tallest,
Awesome <3. You are officially the G.O.A.T (greatest of all time). Promise I wont try and keep you in my cellar tho ^_^.
On the issue of the Oneiros, it is decent as is imo. I use the tracking links on my logi alt to boost rail boats like the rokh or eagle to give them a bit more umph if u will all the time (only way to make em half way decent). If there were one thing I would change on the Oneiros is another low slot so I can don't have to choose between a DCU and exlosive hardener. The drone bay on it is fine imo, medium drones are faster then heavy ones...the time it takes for heavies to reach their target makes em rather useless in my eyes. The medium drones could have done a couple rep cycles by the time the heavies arrived on the scene.
I've never flown a dram so I cant really comment...but seriously u fix hyrbids/gallente hulls and I will love u long time. Anyways keep up the excellent work brosif!
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.21 16:58:00 -
[164]
Yeah the Nighthawk would be another easy fix. As long as it wasn't buffed unreasonably going too far beyond giving it the powergrid to fit the stuff it should be able to.
I'm pretty sure that there are a large number of simple fixes, many of them buffs that could be implemented in small increments that very few people would have any complaints about.
The upcoming ones that I see as controversial are: -Capital and Supercapital rebalance There will be a 100 page threadnought full of wine for even perfect balance changes. Bring cheese.
-The Hybrid-Gallente-Caldari situation. These ships need help. They all need help. The weapons need help. The ships need redesign to fit into current pvp situations. The worst thing I can imagine is fixing one of the subset of these items but leaving everthing else broken. + -Rig Redesign This one ties into the Gallente/Caldari/Hybrid thing. Changing a couple of the penalties might do wonders. For example armor active tank rigs shouldn't slow a ship down. Then an active armor tank bonused short range ship could retain a bit more of its mobility. I don't think rig tweaking will be very controversial except as for how it fits into the monstrous mess that is the Hybrid Imbalance.
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olsted
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Posted - 2011.06.21 18:48:00 -
[165]
You want to "balance" dramiels, fine. Do it like you "balanced" T2 BPs.
That is to say, make mine, and all the ones that exist NOW not suck. You can make the new ones suck.
Hey heres an easier way to make dramiels more balanced... Encourage players who are all that concerned about it skill up and buy one and leave them alone.
Seems pretty simple to me.
-O.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.06.21 19:34:00 -
[166]
Nighthawk - yeah, it's got lol PG. But all the field CS need a rework.
Hybrids. This will be horrific to get right. Every time a "how do we fix blasters" thread comes up, everyone agrees that they need help, but no-one can agree on how to do it. Part of the problem is that recent power-creep has seen Pulse become an effective close-range weapon (tracking boost and slower ships) and ACs become effective med-range weapons (falloff, TE changes). But the logical continuation of that trend to blasters only makes them a shoddy ripoff of one of ACs or Pulse, and nobody likes that. My personal opinion is that you won't fix blasters without having to nerf ACs and, to a less extent, Pulse - and that kind of opinion tends to be unpopular, as people would prefer power creep than actual fixes.
Rails have a similar problem. Their niche is range - but 5-seconds probes and 150 km on-grid warping has greatly devalued range and tactical positioning - so you won't fix rails just by fiddling with their stats, you have to change game mechanics also. Even worse, the Rokh, which should have clearly the highest DPS at long range, is outdamaged all the way up to 240 km by the Apocalypse. That's just stupid, and the problem is again that no sensible rail boost will give the Rokh the advantage over the Apoc that it deserves - the real problem is the Apocalypse's optimal bonus and Tachyons.
On the medium rail scale, the Eagle just has lol PG, anaemic DPS and is horribly slow. Bizarrely, the Zealot, supposedly a shiny Amarr laser brick, is about as fast as the Muninn, and yet has (relatively) easy fitting and great DPS, and even a pretty small sig. Again, you can give the Eagle more PG but it would still be unattractive in the face of the Zealot's combination of great DPS, good mobility and small sig, or the Muninn's mobility and alpha.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.06.21 19:38:00 -
[167]
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Originally by: DarkAegix are hybrids acknowledged as being weak?
They are on my list of things that need balancing.
Originally by: NosubstanceHere How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls?
They are also on my list.
Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships.
... It would appear I now have a favorite CCP dev. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.06.21 19:54:00 -
[168]
@Tallest: For Goddess sake use a feather touch. Been way too many instances where things have been over-nerfed/-buffed and upsetting entire shipclasses in the process.
Incremental changes, evaluate and follow up if need be.
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Vaia Sunn
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Posted - 2011.06.21 20:11:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Vaia Sunn on 21/06/2011 20:14:46 Dramiel nerf: Huzzah. I quit flying the thing because it felt too much like spanking bunnies, and besides, no one would engage me to begin with.
Logistics warp speed: Fair, but having them land later than the cruiser gang adds a little thrill to it too. Add a high slot for a killmail-gun? -I jest only a little.
Supercarrier: I am, like many other players, missing it mentioned here. Please help small gang warfare and make it harder for them to drop on top of a small battlecruiser gang. I could care less about their damage output if they can't catch me.
Titans: Make the doomsday lock onto jump drives instead of warp drives, and perhaps give it a little aoe back. the AOE was overpowered, but also fun.
Interdictors: The Eris, Flycatcher, and Heretic need a little love in the combat department. All they can do currently is drop a bubble or 2 and cloak, whilst the sabre is out there taking names on its own whenever it wants to.
Support the Rokh: It wants a slightly bigger drone bay.
Edit: Profanity filter didn't like the real name for a killmail-gun.
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Layla Ravensclaw
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Posted - 2011.06.21 22:14:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Layla Ravensclaw on 21/06/2011 22:15:33 blaster should be counterparts to pulselaser or gatlings autocannons for close range combat. But han need them the same falloffrange like the pulselasers /autocannons. All blaster have the same illnesses, a to lack range and fireing speed. They should fire faster with a better range and to balance that lower the damange so, that in the same damangeclass be like the pulselaser and sutocannon damage points. Cus for a close range combat weapon is the firerate to low from a blaster.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2011.06.21 23:47:00 -
[171]
CCP Tallest: Can we get dedicated stickies for various topics? Otherwise this thread will be overrun with supercarriers, hybrids, gallant, AF, EAF, ect.
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Swynet
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.22 13:20:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf CCP Tallest: Can we get dedicated stickies for various topics? Otherwise this thread will be overrun with supercarriers, hybrids, gallant, AF, EAF, ect.
If people could already read the main post and put their observations and suggestion in relation with ti would certainly be a very good help.
But we know it's time wasted. Maybe CCP Zymmurgist could use his rubber to take those posts off and let only the related posts to the initial concern. It would help our greatest Dev -naming CCP Tallest- to collect the important informations easier.
And what I just did? -the same stuff than spammers...gosh I'm getting old.
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Scrapyard Attendant
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.06.22 13:28:00 -
[173]
Nothing wrong with the Dramiel. It has a role of a super-pimped interceptor, and considering the 100 mill you need to buy and fit one i think it needs to be left as it is.
If i wanted a super fast frig with a large amount of dps for a fraction of the price id go buy a crusader that can outrun the dram in its nerfed state.. If anything the dramiel needs its damage nerfed, because its admittedly FAR too high as it is right now.
People stopped whinging about them when they figured out that you need more than 1 person to kill it, hell 2 webs and 2 small neuts with a scram can EASILY take a dramiel out tbh. And you cant say that every ship should be able to be soloed blablabla, take a look at garmons pimped vindicators for example that tank and kill gangs of 5+ standard battleships. Does anyone whinge about this being overpowered? Don't think so..
CCP need to stop completely nerfing **** into the ground and making it crap (nano ships, anyone?) its going to end up ruining the game eventually.
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Misses Blue
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Posted - 2011.06.22 18:53:00 -
[174]
Originally by: CCP Tallest Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates.
Specifically Dram's mass is what make it uniques, fun and viable at speed tanking ; why not looking at anything else you want *but* its speed tanking ability ?
At the same time you could buff inties by reducing their mass as well, to increase their speed tanking, and look at AF who are just as heavy as a nano shield cruiser.
Speed tanking isn't quite where it should be imo, specifically for frigates ; they need to compete with cruiser sized guns & launcher...
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Jaedan
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.06.22 20:03:00 -
[175]
It's difficult to be specific on the changes when little is known about what is planned as you move up the fruit tree.
I don't think that nerfing any one ship is the answer however. There are plenty of T1 frigs that aren't even used because they offer no real competition when compared to frigs like the Dramiel. So why not look at buffing some of the other frig hulls out there rather than nerfing 1 ship that won't impact how crappy some of the other ones are. Either that or remove some of the frigs that are hardly ever used?
I love flying frigs in pvp because their value is often overlooked to the bigger and better. If you guys (the devs) were to overhaul the frigs that are just a place holder on the market screen, you might revive this type of pvp. It's inexpensive if you lose one and provides newer players more incentive to get out there and start some pew pew. If your intent is to add to your fanbase, nerfing is not the answer.
If a nerf is really needed to solve the issue, I liked the idea tossed around limiting the dram from doing everything it has all at once.
Logistics getting faster warp speed is a step in the right direction however.
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Medidranda Livoga
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Posted - 2011.06.22 20:11:00 -
[176]
Edited by: Medidranda Livoga on 22/06/2011 20:11:50 Dramiels problem is that it is what could be called all-in-one frigate: decent range, good dps, good durability and stupidly fast. Dramiel is so fast that it¦s faster than interceptors like crusader fitted with speed mods without any speed mods on it. Additionally it has good fittings for dual propulsion fits (if desired) and even empty slot for cloak (if desired).
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Maylin Li
Caldari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.22 22:08:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Maylin Li on 22/06/2011 22:09:33
Originally by: fukier Edited by: fukier on 20/06/2011 23:58:11
Originally by: F1 F8 Stop trolling this thread. You bring 10 logis, others will bring 10 dps ships, you diaf + cant kill anything, logis not op.
1st off i am not a troll... secondly this is my personal opinion...
10 logi's can tank upto 20 abbadons... i am saying make it so 10 logi's can tank up to 10 abbadons... whats so bad about that? if you want to use large rr use it on bs's like you used to in domi's and phoons and such...
edit right now 10 logis can tank up to 31 hacs... i want 10 logis to tank up to 16 hacs....
If you make Logistics at the point where bringing a logistic ship is equal to bringing another battleship then logistics will be entirely useless because the whole point of bringing logistics is that they are force multipliers. If they are on par with a damage dealing ship then people will take the damage dealing ship every time.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.06.22 22:13:00 -
[178]
Enough Talk!
Make the tweaks, put it on SiSi and let us see if they blow up as easily as their counterparts!
Should be noted that us theory-crafters were spot on when it came to AF-AB boost proposal even before testing it ...
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2011.06.23 00:36:00 -
[179]
Originally by: CCP Tallest Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Lostistics The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.
Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s
.
AND YOU SPEAK ABOUT BALANCING????????????????????????? WAKE UP !
Logistics got 50% signature than ALL TECH 2 CRUISER yet. Logistics got one of the best ECM STRENGHT Logistics are efficient from 0m to 50km at 100%, better than ALL T2 cruiser And don't forget, , the ebil, the awesome, Logistics can do his work AND CAN STILL DOCK OR JUMP !
But YESSSSSSSS, the awesome balancing team powered by CCP say "LET'S BOOST LOGISTICS" What's next? logistics can warp cloak ?
You really have to wake up, there is a BIG PROBLEM if you find only 2 ship to work about, and boost something which is already overpowered. But i bet lot of player going to say "yeahh boost logistics, i want more fight when i don't lose my ship". Put your nose out of 0,0 and go have a look how logistics are used in empire or low sec for exemple. ...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
BABARR
PARABELUM-Project Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2011.06.23 00:48:00 -
[180]
Originally by: fukier Edited by: fukier on 20/06/2011 05:11:58 rr is op... increase the fitting for large armor shield and energy transfers... make it so only bs's can fit them...
logistics cruisers are just that cruisers they have no right fitting full large rr plus energy... make it so logi cruisers can only fit medium rr..
secondly increase the drone bay of the galente logi so it can use 5 heavy armor rr drones...
3rd. change the 7.5% bonus to internal reps to also include external incoming reps... (basically ammar/caldari have a bonus to resistance which make internal/external rr more efficient gallente/minnie only have an internal rep bonus... if you make the external incoming rr have the same bonus as internal reps this will balance minnie/gallente to ammar/caldari...
4. blasters got a$$ buggered when the last speed nerf came... due to the mwd bloom being turned off by the scram... to fix this we need hybrid ammo to give a tracking bonus like on minnie ammo...
5. fix blasters by making them close range arties... increase the base damage decrease the rof... decrease the clip size...
6. fix railguns by making them the highest long range dps platform... to do this increase base damage and rof by 15%... change the caldari 10% to turrets optimal range to 5% to rof... now you have the rokh doing 1000dps at 100km.. also increase railguns clip size to compensate
7. change the falloff bonus on galente ships to a mass reduction bonus... (this will make gallente ships faster and the most agile... basically the way they should be)
8.boost sensor damps to include a reduction of max targets... a tech I sensor damp will now decrease max target by 1. tech II by 1.5... (note you will allways be able to target one target regardless of sensor damps on you)
9. decease dreads siege time to 5 min also half the activation cost
10. introduce capital nuets/nos make them exclusive to dreads and tech II dreads... (note capital nuets/nos only work on other capital ships siege mode increases cap usuage/drain amount and range)
11. nerf sc by introducing tech II dreads called juggernauts... they can use capital nuets... they can tank 1 ddd.. they have resist bonus for caldari/ammar and repper bonus for gallente/minnie... they can use capital webbers (which only work on capital ships and can only be used on a super cap when in siege mode siege mode increases cap usuage and range) and they can jump out with 60% cap plus they use an infinity point when in siege mode... note that juggers will have the sensor strength of bs's...
12. introduce tech II tier II bc's called heavy bombers... let them use citidel torps heavy bombs(think capital bomb that only hit capital ships has really really slow explosion velocity) it can also use coverts ops cloak/bridge
13. nerf fb by making it so they cant shoot at pos objects including ihubs (this should be the dreads/juggers job)
14. give assault frigs a 4th bonus
Well, i see here more good idea than a CCP dev ever said. Some very, very good ideas. CCP... WAKE...UP !, listen ppl who are on the battlefield and who want FIGHT ! not safeblob! ...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
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biatch check'the'price
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Posted - 2011.06.23 00:56:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: fukier really 10 guardians can be hurt by nueting? how many baalagorns you need?
You'll need around 3 battleships with neuts to impact a group of 10 guardians.
AHAHAHAH, don't make me laught, i want 50km neutra on my BS too pliz, you sold some?
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CCP Tallest
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Posted - 2011.06.23 14:36:00 -
[182]
About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.23 14:59:00 -
[183]
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
ummm **** yeah! thats alot of armor!!!! so thats what 9k armor with a 1600 on? pretty sweet... even better with trimarks were looking at 11700 armor on that bad boy... are you thinking an extra 25m3 or 50m3? how about a slight mass reduction to go with it so its not so damn slow
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Valika Kalidima
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Posted - 2011.06.23 15:28:00 -
[184]
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
Hmm, I would say that it isn't about the armor alone, but also the configurations you are able to make with it. You can't use mid slots for much, when it's armor tanked. Maybe sacrifice mid slots for a low slot or two? And add a little more armor.
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HELLBOUNDMAN
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Posted - 2011.06.23 15:32:00 -
[185]
Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN on 23/06/2011 15:38:00
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
After watching the alliance tournament, I kinda felt the the Oneiros was underpowered in compaired to the Guardian, and that the Basilisk was underpowered in comparison to the scimitar.
It also seemed to me that the armor based vessels had better tanks and could maintain another ship better.. This part might just simply be how they were using the tanks on the ships.
However, I still feel that Oneiros and Basilisk are weaker in both tank and output in comparison to the Guardian and scimitar.
So basically what i'm saying is since you're looking at the Oneiros, maybe also take a look at the Basilisk? I know that it's not as weak as the Oneiros, but i do feel that it still pales in comparison to the other 2 logistics
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.06.23 16:01:00 -
[186]
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
More drones is a good Gallente theme, but it's not really a reason to fly the thing instead of a Guardian. A sig of 70 m still gives it no sig advantage over the Guardian, and it has pretty much the same base speed too. If the Oneiros is supposed to be used when you need more mobility than offered by the Guardian, but still want to rep armour, then it's got to have considerable advantages in sig and speed over the Guardian, comparable to the scale of those offered by the Scimitar over the Basilisk, which are two pretty well balanced ships. I'm still not sure what these fast-moving armour gangs that would want Oneirosesii are, but that's a different issue...
This means changing the Guardian as well as the Oneiros. People will whinge about that, but they always want power creep instead of intelligent balancing. Currently:
Basilisk: base speed 240 m/s, sig 90 m Scimitar: base speed 316 m/s, sig 65 m
Guardian: base speed 261 m/s, sig 70 m Oneiros: base speed 268 m/s, sig 80 m
If we want to replicate the relationship between Basilisk and Scimitar among the Guardian and Oneiros, then something like this springs to mind:
Guardian: base speed ~250 m/s, sig 80-85 m Oneiros: base speed ~295 m/s, sig 70 m
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.23 16:09:00 -
[187]
Edited by: fukier on 23/06/2011 16:10:26
Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN So basically what i'm saying is since you're looking at the Oneiros, maybe also take a look at the Basilisk? I know that it's not as weak as the Oneiros, but i do feel that it still pales in comparison to the other 2 logistics
ok the at cannont be used as a reference to the real game... mainly cuss you cant use more then one logi in it... one of the bonus for the basilisk is cap transfer if there isnot more then one basilisk it cant effectivly use this bonus... they are fine when there are more then one out there...
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
More drones is a good Gallente theme, but it's not really a reason to fly the thing instead of a Guardian. A sig of 70 m still gives it no sig advantage over the Guardian, and it has pretty much the same base speed too. If the Oneiros is supposed to be used when you need more mobility than offered by the Guardian, but still want to rep armour, then it's got to have considerable advantages in sig and speed over the Guardian, comparable to the scale of those offered by the Scimitar over the Basilisk, which are two pretty well balanced ships. I'm still not sure what these fast-moving armour gangs that would want Oneirosesii are, but that's a different issue...
This means changing the Guardian as well as the Oneiros. People will whinge about that, but they always want power creep instead of intelligent balancing. Currently:
Basilisk: base speed 240 m/s, sig 90 m Scimitar: base speed 316 m/s, sig 65 m
Guardian: base speed 261 m/s, sig 70 m Oneiros: base speed 268 m/s, sig 80 m
If we want to replicate the relationship between Basilisk and Scimitar among the Guardian and Oneiros, then something like this springs to mind:
Guardian: base speed ~250 m/s, sig 80-85 m Oneiros: base speed ~295 m/s, sig 70 m
dont forget about the mass of the ships... reduce the mass of the gallente ligi too...
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Alexander Knott
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.23 16:28:00 -
[188]
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
Interesting, but the problem I've always had with the the Oneiros was that it's hard to build a doctrine with them due to their cap instability. In my mind, the Guardian & Basilisk should be the heavy tank, slower/fatter, cap buddy logistics while the Scimitar and the Oneiros should be the somewhat lighter tank, smaller/faster, no cap buddy logistics.
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2011.06.23 18:31:00 -
[189]
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
And about all the other things ppl said? Like a agro timer for remote for exemple? ...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.06.23 19:22:00 -
[190]
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
How on earth do you plan to explain that a Gallente ship has 50% more base armour than its Amarr counterpart?
The issue with the Oneiros is the more or less useless tracking link (TL) bonus that gives it those two extra midslots at the expense of lows, making people shield tank it as that is where the slots are.
How about: - Slots stay as they are but TL bonus is replaced by the MWD bonus similar to the Thorax. - Equalize the shield/armour values (~1500 each). - Run the fitting numbers and increase CPU as needed to allow for a 1-2 extender tank.
I mean, if you are willing to change it then why not rethink the concept of it entirely?
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.23 19:57:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
How on earth do you plan to explain that a Gallente ship has 50% more base armour than its Amarr counterpart?
The issue with the Oneiros is the more or less useless tracking link (TL) bonus that gives it those two extra midslots at the expense of lows, making people shield tank it as that is where the slots are.
How about: - Slots stay as they are but TL bonus is replaced by the MWD bonus similar to the Thorax. - Equalize the shield/armour values (~1500 each). - Run the fitting numbers and increase CPU as needed to allow for a 1-2 extender tank.
I mean, if you are willing to change it then why not rethink the concept of it entirely?
ok yes to the bonus change though imo changing the 5th mid slot for a 5th low slot would be better... plus the ship is hurting when it comes to PG... please increase the pg so i can fit 4 large rr armor a 10mn mwd mid cap injector and a 1600 without needing a rcuII would be awesome... my dream setup is: high 4 large rr armor reppers
mids: 10mn mwd eccm sensor booster cap injector
lows: 1600 dcu II 2 energy adaptives 1 ex hardner
rigs: either 2 trimarks or 2 Remote Repair Augmentor I
drones (i am assuming 100m3) 5 hammerhead rr 5 warrior II 5 ecm 300's
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Alexander Knott
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.23 19:58:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
How on earth do you plan to explain that a Gallente ship has 50% more base armour than its Amarr counterpart?
The issue with the Oneiros is the more or less useless tracking link (TL) bonus that gives it those two extra midslots at the expense of lows, making people shield tank it as that is where the slots are.
How about: - Slots stay as they are but TL bonus is replaced by the MWD bonus similar to the Thorax. - Equalize the shield/armour values (~1500 each). - Run the fitting numbers and increase CPU as needed to allow for a 1-2 extender tank.
I mean, if you are willing to change it then why not rethink the concept of it entirely?
I dunno, a shield tanking, armor repping ship sounds pretty weak since logistics couldn't rep each other effectively. Good point about the slot layout however.
Really what needs to happen is look at a Logistics 5, 3 rep Oneiros with full tank and see how that compares to the Scimitar and let that guide the improvements. The Oneiros should be the armor equivalent to the Scimitar the same way the Guardian is the armor equivalent of the Basilisk. The bonuses are mostly fine (the Scimitar also has the terrible tracking link bonus and is fine), but I suppose you could experiment with replacing it with a remote ECCM bonus.
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.23 20:17:00 -
[193]
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
Base armour above that of the Guardian is a bit much. I would much rather have a slot moved from mid to low so you can then fit a reasonable tank to it.
Sig is good and if possible a bit more base speed would be nice, but in the end neither that nor extra drones address the fundamental flaw of the slot layout for an armour tanker.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.06.23 20:35:00 -
[194]
Originally by: fukier ...plus the ship is hurting when it comes to PG... please increase the pg so i can fit 4 large rr armor a 10mn mwd mid cap injector and a 1600 without needing a rcuII would be awesome......
You mad? 4 L.Reps + 1600RT barely fits on a Guardian and Amarr are the grid happy bunch
Problem I see with moving mid -> low is that it allows full tank with 2 free mids for eWar/ECCM making it one of the most powerful logistics of the lot .. midslots are valuable as hell. Could be sorted by restricting fittings I guess.
Originally by: Alexander Knott I dunno, a shield tanking, armor repping ship sounds pretty weak since logistics couldn't rep each other effectively. Good point about the slot layout however....
Question is if we want them to be swarm ships like the Guardian/Basilisk or whether they should be designed to provide support solo like the Scimitars.
If it truly is to be the armour equivalent then you impact speed (assuming plates) and with only four repairers it will rarely have spares to support a brother if gang is taking fire -> major slot shuffle needed. I am loathe to make a Guardian Mk.II to be honest.
Scimitar TL bonus actually makes sense with the new artillery and uber-falloff autos, that it is not abused is hardly the ships fault
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.23 20:46:00 -
[195]
"but I suppose you could experiment with replacing it with a remote ECCM bonus." (lazy quote)
hmm... i like the sound of that... well either that or the mwd bonus
"You mad? 4 L.Reps + 1600RT barely fits on a Guardian and Amarr are the grid happy bunch"
yes i am crazy... like a fox... though scimi is shield gangs and it being fast works well for it... armor ships are not fast... plus the gal logi does not get cap tsf bonus so giving it insane tank could offset in the areas its lacking...
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.24 11:25:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Problem I see with moving mid -> low is that it allows full tank with 2 free mids for eWar/ECCM making it one of the most powerful logistics of the lot .. midslots are valuable as hell. Could be sorted by restricting fittings I guess.
Not really. You would still need to fit cap rechargers in those remaining mids if you want it independently stable without cap boosters. Much like you don't have "free lows" on the Scimitar and need them all for PDS/CPR.
In fact, if you go to a 5/4/5 slot layout, that missing mid would mean you are no longer stable with MWD and three large reps, unless you sacrifice your ECCM. The Onerios does have a rather large cargo hold though, so boosters are a more valid option here, but even then you would only have one mid left after MWD/ECCM/booster.
I still say a changed slot layout is a good starting point, especially if it came with more base speed to separate it from the Guardian and its ability to fit a 1600mm plate. With a base speed of 240m/s it would go 1740m/s with MWD and an 800mm plate and at least be able to outrun T1 cruisers.
For reference, this is the fit I'm using as a baseline to compare it to a Scimitar with the same utility. Include zet200 and standard mindflood.
Quote: [Oneiros, MWD] Damage Control II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Conjunctive Magnetometric ECCM Scanning Array I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction [empty high slot]
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
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im'ba
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Posted - 2011.06.24 11:32:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Falcus Aurelius
Originally by: Blackhorizon Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16 Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.
Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.
I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
This.
CCP Tallest read this instead, its more constructive then swingning the nerfbat once again.
There is 47 frigs on the market ingame, about 3-4 of these are able to deal armor damage to a dual propp mse fitt dramiel. this dosent say that the dramiel its self is overpowerd. The stats says that the remaining 42 frigates that are avaible needs a serius mantinence since most of has been the same since 2003beta. Buff the rest of the frigates, make them more competative. Add some pg add som more shield/armor do something constructive instead of just listening to the compalining player base that dont want to change and following their pointed fingers. You have all the statistics at your office, look at them and see what ways you can improve the entire gameplay instead of beeing narrow minded and listen to others! I dont mind a dram speed nerf, ill still used it and get easy podkills, give me something to fight instead!
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.24 11:39:00 -
[198]
Originally by: fukier yes i am crazy... like a fox... though scimi is shield gangs and it being fast works well for it... armor ships are not fast...
The one niche were the Oneiros can currently shine is actually that of armour tanking frigate gangs. There it works really well in a shield tanking fit to support assault frigates. Making it faster would of course help emphasise that role, but if you also move a slot you can now have them running in pairs in an armour configuration.
Both those changes alongside a sig reduction would make them interesting for armour HACs, where sig and speed play just as big a role as raw EHP. Not to mention bringing a different sensor strength, high natural resists to the arch enemy the Drake and suddenly you have a valid option to the Guardian. After all, ship balancing is all about enabling choice.
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.24 11:48:00 -
[199]
Originally by: im'ba There is 47 frigs on the market ingame, about 3-4 of these are able to deal armor damage to a dual propp mse fitt dramiel. this dosent say that the dramiel its self is overpowerd. The stats says that the remaining 42 frigates that are avaible needs a serius mantinence since most of has been the same since 2003beta. Buff the rest of the frigates, make them more competative. Add some pg add som more shield/armor do something constructive instead of just listening to the compalining player base that dont want to change and following their pointed fingers.
Nerf one ship or buff all the others?
In the end, balancing the dram would overnight make at least a dozen other frigs viable again. The entire assault frig line, combat interceptors and most other faction frigates are obsoleted by the Dramiel. Rather than going over all those ships, bringing that one back in line with the rest is the more sensible option here.
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im'ba
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Posted - 2011.06.24 12:09:00 -
[200]
Edited by: im''ba on 24/06/2011 12:12:10
Originally by: Lucas Quaan
Originally by: im'ba There is 47 frigs on the market ingame, about 3-4 of these are able to deal armor damage to a dual propp mse fitt dramiel. this dosent say that the dramiel its self is overpowerd. The stats says that the remaining 42 frigates that are avaible needs a serius mantinence since most of has been the same since 2003beta. Buff the rest of the frigates, make them more competative. Add some pg add som more shield/armor do something constructive instead of just listening to the compalining player base that dont want to change and following their pointed fingers.
Nerf one ship or buff all the others?
In the end, balancing the dram would overnight make at least a dozen other frigs viable again. The entire assault frig line, combat interceptors and most other faction frigates are obsoleted by the Dramiel. Rather than going over all those ships, bringing that one back in line with the rest is the more sensible option here.
Its the simple solution to please the mass in short terms yes, about 30 of the 42 frigates will still be obsolete whit a speed/cap nerf on a singel hig end ship. It might make a few more dramiels go pop but that wont be from the "balance" part, it will still be from player errors piloting drams. Ive just seen the nerfbat swining to many times since beta for me to like the "player base opinion"
Its easily fixed whit a overlook on the "counter" faction frigs or any other frigs, hell even a 2% range bonus whit null on a daredevil will make dram pilots not wanna fight them. And if rails get that slight buff they need you get 3 more ships that can counter it, generally i think ppl need to change mentality and stand up for the challange instead off going the normal way...(this includes ccp but we know how that works already..)
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.06.24 12:25:00 -
[201]
Originally by: im'ba Ive just seen the nerfbat swining to many times since beta for me to like the "player base opinion"
And I've seen far too much damage caused by endless power-creep, espoused by people as short-sighted as you. Suggesting that we boost 50 frigates instead of nerfing one is lava-drinking insane.
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Ogogov
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.24 16:34:00 -
[202]
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
5th attempt at posting this on these horrible forums.
I think a mass reduction is far preferable to extra drone bay space. The Oneiros' drones are unbonused, which would make the extra space something of a waste. A mass reduction would along with the sig radius make the ship a favorite for supporting fast-moving armor gangs, however.
If its not OP to also consider the additional armor on top of that, it could make it a good deal tougher to kill.
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Alasik
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Posted - 2011.06.24 20:57:00 -
[203]
Not sure if someone already said this, but if you are going to nerf the Dramiel then the cost or price of the Dramiel needs to come down proportionate to what your are nerfing. It may be the fastest and most versatile Frigate, but it is also the most expensive.
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Bluetippedflyer
Invicta. Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2011.06.24 23:48:00 -
[204]
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
that'ld be good, other than that theres not a bunch to change with regards to logistics ships
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Rhapsodae
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Posted - 2011.06.25 02:19:00 -
[205]
i really really really hope that there can be something done when flying in a cross race fleet. Example: Im the only bloody caldari in a galent, amarr minmatarr fleet. I really would like to see a certain bonus ( maybe a generic bonus for Logi class) on shield and armor. Cus im not gonna invest another month to help out my friends and get another expensive ship + fits.
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.06.25 03:28:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Ogogov
I think a mass reduction is far preferable to extra drone bay space. The Oneiros' drones are unbonused, which would make the extra space something of a waste.
Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 150% bonus to Remote Armor Repair System and Tracking Link range 20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level
Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use and 10% bonus to Tracking Link efficiency per level
Role Bonus: -65% power need for Remote Armor Repair Systems
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:07:00 -
[207]
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
I don't think that will set it apart enough from the Guardian. The main problem with the Onieros is mobility. I think you would be better off by adjusting agility/speed/mass values closer to the Scimitar (It's currently less agile than the guardian and only slightly faster than the Guardian. The Onieros has a massive mass for some reason and it really sets it back since its actually slower than the Guardian with Afterburner and MicrowarpDrive active.
Current Agility/Base Speed/Afterburner Speed/Microwarpdrive Speed/Signature Radius. Assuming all 5 and no other modules.
Guardian: 7.2/261ms/651ms/1704ms/70m Onieros: 7.9/268ms/640ms/1648ms/80m Scimitar: 6.5/316ms/785ms/2051ms/90m Basilisk:: 6.5/240ms/575ms/1481ms/65m
I think if you would increase the base speed of the Onieros to be closer to the Scimitar, like the relationship between the Basilisk and the Guardian it would fare a lot better. Currently the Guardian is 21ms or about 8.75% faster than the Basilisk. The Scimitar is almost 50m/s faster than the Onieros, more than double the amount. If you adjusted the Onieros to a similar level of the basilisk-guardian relationship, say to 295ms, It would be much more mobile, then tweak the mass slightly, to the same level of the guardian, and reduce the agility so with the mass reduction it would align in about 6.8/6.9 seconds, I think it would be a lot better.
The armor increase is nice. Although I think the Onieros suffers from only having a 4 slot tank, it has the lowest resistances of all the Logistic ships because of this. Swap a midslot for a lowslot, and increase the eccm strength on the Onieros from 20 to 24 to compensate slightly, it could also use maybe 260~ ish powergrid, so it could fit a 1600 plate with 3 large named reps and a microwarpdrive, this would boost the Onieros' effective hitpoints closer to the competition, it has to sacrifice speed for the increase so it's a fair trade.
---
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Cuko
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Posted - 2011.06.25 19:24:00 -
[208]
Unlike the rest of the posters in this thread. I wont be referencing the scimitar. However, I do believe the onieros should have a very low signature radius (45m). This would be a significant increase survivability. Another useful change would be a increase in 'Remote Repair Amount' instead of bonuses towards tracking links.
This would increase the Oneiros's survivability, solo and usefulness in fleet engagements.
-proxyyyy
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Ogogov
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.26 15:01:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Ogogov
I think a mass reduction is far preferable to extra drone bay space. The Oneiros' drones are unbonused, which would make the extra space something of a waste.
Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 150% bonus to Remote Armor Repair System and Tracking Link range 20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level
Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use and 10% bonus to Tracking Link efficiency per level
Role Bonus: -65% power need for Remote Armor Repair Systems
Five medium repair drones in a fast-moving roaming gang. How useful.
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Corranos Blaise
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Posted - 2011.06.27 03:11:00 -
[210]
Hey here's a thought....Why don't you leave the godmnd Dramiel ALONE....You already nerfed the drake....And I didn't spend 60million on a ship to have you 'BALANCE' it....It's a Pirate Faction and SHOULD be fast and unfair....Go 'BALANCE' some npc ships and do us all a favor by leaving the Dramiel alone...
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Jenn Ji'e'toh
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Posted - 2011.06.27 04:02:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Jenn Ji''e''toh on 27/06/2011 04:05:33 The daredevil is insanely over powered. equipped right i can get it to 3453m/s with a prototype 150mm guasen cannon i can get it to do 17 damage per second witch is as much as 2 missiles launchers on my rifter (i am better with misses then turrets), I can also get it to shoot at 39km optimum range with 11km fall off leaving me around 45km range hitting most of the time theoretically, witch beats my missile range, combine that with several targeting range increase i can get it's targeting range to 55km with a completely stable fit. For a kite a dare devil is a more dangerous ship then the dremail. With those stats i could easily out run a sleeper frigate and take it down, and if i really wanted to i could get 2 rail guns equipped although i would lose the savager, and have to lower the ships targeting range down to 44km. (my fitting also includes a codebreaker and probe launcher. The code breaker and salvager do make it unstable). combine that with very little training compared to tech 2's a newbie could probably fly one in a month with these stats, and fittings easily and get the same results. If you ask me i think factions should be weaker then tech 2's but stronger then tech 1's because you have to earn them.
since i don't have access to the ship this is in eve ship fitter to do my fitting (i do not have 90mill to spend on a ship) rigging i have 3 hybrid locus coordinators for low slots i have 2 tech 2 signal amplifiers a bet reactor control and a f-4aq tracking sytem medium i have catalyzed cold gas arc jets (the micro warp drive,) f-90 position sub routines with a targeting range sub script, and a code breaker for high i have 1 150mm gausen cannon, 1 core probe launcher, and 1 salvger
my stats that effect this ship energy grid upgrades lv 3 electronic upgrades lv 5 acceleration control lv 3 high speed maneuvering lv 2 controlled bursts lv 1 advanced weapon upgrades lv 0 weapon upgrades lv 2 small hybrid turrets lv 2 gunnery lv 4 motion prediction lv 3 rapid firing lv 2 sharp shooter lv 3 surgical strike lv 0 trajectory analysis lv 2 weapon upgrades lv 2 therm o dynamics lv 0 gallent frigates lv 3 navigation lv 4 mimtar frigate if your kiting you don't use propulsion jammers electronics lv 4 energy grid upgrades lv 3 energy management lv 2 engineering lv 3 long range targeting lv 2 there is a 10day skills here, but the truth is that this is probably about a good months training if less most of these skills are low level skills. Sorry about any mispelling
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.06.27 07:45:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Corranos Blaise ..You already nerfed the drake..
Huh? They changed the way missiles are handled by server but as far as I know the ship itself has had nothing done to it. Mind pointing me in the right direction in the unlikely case that I am mistaken?
Dramiel was doomed the second the people who helped create the FoTM status began speaking out against it (Hi, GENOS o/)
Originally by: Jenn Ji'e'toh The daredevil is insanely over powered...
Ships are balanced primarily with PvP in mind, so PvE performance is of secondary concern. It has resulted in a lot more Vindicators, Machs, Rattlers etc. being used for missions which is fine as the pinata value of mission pimp whoring-boats helps cull the herd
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bread bringer
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Posted - 2011.06.27 11:18:00 -
[213]
would be nice to see other faction frigs out in null sec than just the dramiel
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S'qarpium D'igil
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Posted - 2011.06.27 14:01:00 -
[214]
Would like to see a boost for the Succubus, too.
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VonKolroth
Gallente Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.28 11:21:00 -
[215]
Originally by: fukier "but I suppose you could experiment with replacing it with a remote ECCM bonus." (lazy quote)
hmm... i like the sound of that... well either that or the mwd bonus
"You mad? 4 L.Reps + 1600RT barely fits on a Guardian and Amarr are the grid happy bunch"
yes i am crazy... like a fox... though scimi is shield gangs and it being fast works well for it... armor ships are not fast... plus the gal logi does not get cap tsf bonus so giving it insane tank could offset in the areas its lacking...
This exactly what I was going to suggest, Basi's and Guardians are favored for 1 simple reason, cap transfer is always useful to almost every fleet on any field. Tracking links, not so much. Remote ECCM bonuses Oneros would fit the role and be more useful for any armor fleet that incorporated it and put it in line with the Guardian. I wouldn't even mind that it was burning 1 less large rep then the guardian to do it.
~
A man with a Domi analyzes every problem in the terms of drones. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.06.28 12:52:00 -
[216]
Originally by: VonKolroth Remote ECCM bonuses Oneros would fit the role and be more useful for any armor fleet that incorporated it and put it in line with the Guardian. I wouldn't even mind that it was burning 1 less large rep then the guardian to do it.
While not a bad idea in itself, I think we should be careful with remote ECCM bonuses. ECM needs to retain its position as one of the counters to logistics - and a substantial remote ECCM bonus would be going directly against that.
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lech lizdian
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Posted - 2011.06.28 16:28:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: VonKolroth Remote ECCM bonuses Oneros would fit the role and be more useful for any armor fleet that incorporated it and put it in line with the Guardian. I wouldn't even mind that it was burning 1 less large rep then the guardian to do it.
While not a bad idea in itself, I think we should be careful with remote ECCM bonuses. ECM needs to retain its position as one of the counters to logistics - and a substantial remote ECCM bonus would be going directly against that.
Ok don boost the strength of remote eccm... Make the bonus for ante and cap use reduction |
Mekhana
Gallente Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.06.28 22:05:00 -
[218]
Currently ECM is a counter against everything except super caps. ECM ships are currently too strong compared to their other EWAR ship counterparts.
I think the ECCM boost is a wonderful idea.
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Dumb Blond
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.29 15:24:00 -
[219]
dictor/hictor bubbles and cloaks.... and dont let my name fool you
right now i can uncloak eather my sabre or devoter and instantly put up a bubble for ALL other forms of Ewar you have to wait to lock the target which again AFTER decloaking you have a no locking timer perhaps its time to add a decloak to bubble timer?
right now we have gangs of people going around and cloaking up on gates, cyno towers and jbs (granted many in hacs etc but thats another matter) but the bubblers have no penalty to fitting a cloak for camps as their primary role is to launch a bubble which atm happens instantly when the other ships have to wait a few seconds b4 locking and doing their jobs doesnt that make bubblers abit overpowered?
coz right now they can stop your warping instantly after turning off their cloaks
also this could be applied to cynos
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Selnix
Gallente North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.29 18:28:00 -
[220]
Originally by: CCP Tallest About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones?
Change the tracking link range bonus to armor drone optimal range bonus. Amend the 20% drone transfer amount bonus to be 25% transfer and drone hitpoint bonus to allow them some chance of getting repped if attacked given they are twice as fragile as damage drones. Change the logi skill tracking link bonus to +5km drone operation range bonus.
Increase drone bay to 400m3 and bandwidth to 125mbit. Keep your 3000 armor idea Change sig to 65 maybe?
With heavy armor bots the Oneiros would then be capable of repairing slightly more than a guardian with a cap stable fit but would still be vulnerable to jamming as it is now. On the up side, some percentage of the repair would continue while jammed due to the drones. Proper use of bombs or support attacking armor bots would be able to counter the reps while the drone bay capacity would allow for the ship to retain some of its utility through a bit of the micromanagement with which Gallente must approach any drone related task. It would also give the pilot the added choice of whether to apply their local remote reps to their drones should they come under attack or to put the reps on their fellow pilots. Should the pilot wish to drop down to medium drones they would have sufficient drone bay to hold ample spares for a long damn time with a reduced repair capacity.
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Shadow Wind
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.06.29 23:10:00 -
[221]
Please rebalance hybrids (gallente as well)
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Shadow Wind
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.06.29 23:15:00 -
[222]
Give the oneiros bonus to repair drones which makes them a bit stronger in the "self tank" as a balance to the guardian.
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ninjaholic
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:23:00 -
[223]
Just don't touch the Logi's for the worse yea? I just finished Logistics V.
+ Support EVE's own IN-GAME fight record tool!
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Diana Valenti
Minmatar Insidious Decisions ROL.Citizens
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Posted - 2011.06.30 19:26:00 -
[224]
Nerf Dramiel and buff gallente :p
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Diandathu
Gallente Evolution The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.07.01 18:14:00 -
[225]
Edited by: Diandathu on 01/07/2011 18:17:31 The dram is fine as it is, yes it is powered higher than other frigs but what frig also cost 55+m just for the bpc? Its price reflects its use, I could understand if bpcs where available for 20m or lower, another thing to think about is dramiel pilots are one of the largest investors in snake implants you nerf the dram and you also loose that market variable.
Edit: One other thought its speed is its tank, it doesnt have a t2 tank like t2 frigs granted in a frig thats not alot but it is something comparable to the drams speed.
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.07.01 21:04:00 -
[226]
Been looking at the Succubus and I've seen a really simple buff that would bring it in line.
+1 turret hard point.
No boost to any other stats. This would give a MSE fit 280 DPS (conflag) with 10.7k EHP (with fleet bonuses).
Looking at all the faction ships the Sansha line up seem to be gank boats. With an extra turret slot the succubus would be perfect. Obviously this is solely my opinion.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.07.02 13:35:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Scandal Caulker Been looking at the Succubus and I've seen a really simple buff that would bring it in line...
Suck-a-bus is getting 107dps per mounted gun with a single heatsink (my skills), don't know how you only get 280dps after adding a slot.
The ship itself does tons of damage already, but it (and the bigger brothers) inherit the ****** mobility of Caldari so are sitting ducks for the most part. Sansha hulls needs to be sped up somehow or rebuilt from scratch as was done with all the other pirate hulls .. why they left them out in the refresh is anyones guess ..
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PANZER1233000
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Posted - 2011.07.02 13:40:00 -
[228]
Originally by: CCP Tallest Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far:
Lostistics The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.
Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s
Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.
Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm
Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)
Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months.
Disclaimer II: We do not have a release date for any ship balancing changes at this point, but it will definitely not be released in the upcoming Incarna patch.
You kill solo PvP ....... It and so there is almost no
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.07.02 15:02:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Raimo on 02/07/2011 15:03:49
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Scandal Caulker Been looking at the Succubus and I've seen a really simple buff that would bring it in line...
Suck-a-bus is getting 107dps per mounted gun with a single heatsink (my skills), don't know how you only get 280dps after adding a slot.
The ship itself does tons of damage already, but it (and the bigger brothers) inherit the ****** mobility of Caldari so are sitting ducks for the most part. Sansha hulls needs to be sped up somehow or rebuilt from scratch as was done with all the other pirate hulls .. why they left them out in the refresh is anyones guess ..
Because Sansha was buffed earlier, and were the only good pirate hulls before the boost(Great, actually. Succubus was so much fun). In fact during the faction ship overhaul they NERFED Sansha a bit while boosting the others if I recall correctly (at least the Phantasm), which in hindsight was probably not the smartest of moves :D
Oh and the poster above me is trollin so badly Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.07.02 15:45:00 -
[230]
Edited by: Scandal Caulker on 02/07/2011 15:46:22
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Scandal Caulker Been looking at the Succubus and I've seen a really simple buff that would bring it in line...
Suck-a-bus is getting 107dps per mounted gun with a single heatsink (my skills), don't know how you only get 280dps after adding a slot.
Well if you want to keep those guns shooting you're gonna need a Nos which you can only fit if you use dual light lasers but I suppose a slight nerf to PG to prevent a triple medium pulse laser fit would work if you had three turret slots
Although, you're really gonna be struggling for CPU with 3 medium pulse II's
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Flynn Fetladral
Caldari BlackSite Prophecy
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Posted - 2011.07.02 19:04:00 -
[231]
I'd certainly love to see some love for the Oneiros. 3000 Armour is maybe a bit too much, but a bump to base armour would be nice. A bit more mobility also would be good imo. Slot layout I'm not too worried about. Though, 4,4,5 obviously is going to be more useful when it comes to armour tanking. Follow Flynn on Twitter |
Xorth Adimus
Caldari Blackwater USA Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.07.02 21:41:00 -
[232]
The Dramiel is not overly too fast, interceptors and frigates in general are just too slow to do the job of a tackler well enough. Destroyers are also terrible (outside of thrasher hulls) when they should be the counter to them.
Assault frigates do not have 4th bonus.
Scan resolution is a little high, other then that stop nerfing stuff that works and fix other content.
Faction frigates are meant to be over priced ships with a niche. Dramiel's is speed and damage, don't destroy this unique ship simply because most other other frigates are terrible and have no real purpose. A weakness could be sensor strength its already large sig (with MSE) and poorer scan res and its existing EM resists.
Write down the point for each frigate as a useful frigate role and give them bonus's and penalties for each. Don't do any of that generic race bonus either think of something useful and unique.
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Garreth Vlox
Minmatar Obsidian Inc.
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Posted - 2011.07.03 04:07:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Reed Tiburon
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Disclaimer II: We do not have a release date for any ship balancing changes at this point, but it will definitely not be released in the upcoming Incarna patch.
Great initiative, Greyscale. Hopefully you can stick this in Incarna 1.1 or whatever.
did you even read his post?
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.07.03 09:57:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Xorth Adimus .. Dramiel's is speed and damage...
They are a full 25%+ faster than interceptors whose raison d'Otre are speed. They do damage similar to combat interceptors and some AFs. They can field buffer tanks to rival AFs.
You say you want the first two, fine how about nixing a midslot then or making fittings so atrocious as to make a medium extender fit all but impossible? These are old ideas, as old as the introduction of the current OP config and they do solve it but makes it not really worth it (aka. Suck-a-bus syndrome). Cutting speed/agility lets them perform as interceptor speed AFs or close to and should be enough but SiSi will tell.
Would be pretty awesome if they did away with the tier system and gave all the various hulls something to excel at, I'll grant you that
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.07.03 13:55:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Xorth Adimus Dramiel's is speed and damage...
It is possible to keep the Dramiel's speed and damage and balance it properly, but you'd have to give up other attributes. Such as agility and EHP. If the Dramiel had a ~5 s base align time and was unable to fit a MSE, maybe?
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Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise
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Posted - 2011.07.04 15:07:00 -
[236]
finaly some ship balances!! awesome /me hughs u
check this out, this black op topic will help u guys alot, i spend quet some time on it; http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1204416
What the dramile makes good it the ability to dual prob it and have more hitpoints than a avarage assault friget. This because u can fit a medium shield extender and 3 extender rights. Combine this with afterburner speed tanking and its win.
ps: Dont forget to nerf the hurricane, 600 dps, awesome buff tank, and 2 med neuts in the high slot will kill every other bc/bs add the good autocannon tracking / falloff/ range and ability to choose out 3 damage to do types and u see why its horrible overpowerd
Fix Black Op's |
Mfume Apocal
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.07.04 22:35:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Ogogov Five medium repair drones in a fast-moving roaming gang. How useful.
bl uses rep drones, works for us
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Holy Cheater
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2011.07.04 22:38:00 -
[238]
You know, we have things like cruise missiles and blasters. And you seriously talking about... dramiels?
Logistics warp speed is also a very serious business, but why do you think this is a good place to start?
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.07.05 09:24:00 -
[239]
Because it's an easy, straightforward, non-controversial fix and as such a very good place to start.
I know this is eve-o and bitterness is to be expected, but reasonable, incremental balancing, with more to come, is the best news we've had in a long time. Such direction should be encouraged and I, for one, welcome our new balancing dev overlords.
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Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.07.05 10:39:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Lucas Quaan Because it's an easy, straightforward, non-controversial fix and as such a very good place to start.
On a related note; why is the logi warp speed - a non-controversial and straight forward balancing fix if ever I heard one - not on TQ yet? Seems like a slam dunk.
What's the process for tweaking these things and what kind of turnaround can realistically be expected?
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Nin Kimrov
Minmatar Kenzi Arms and Munitions
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Posted - 2011.07.06 00:52:00 -
[241]
Can we get this fixed asap, there lots of thing on the list to be fixed, specially Hybrids guns and faction warfare...
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Salpun
Gallente Paramount Commerce
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Posted - 2011.07.06 03:39:00 -
[242]
Looks like the still changing foundation code for CQ will have to be deployed first and be stable before team BFF can test their next patch which includes balance changes. It looks like the new foundation has come a long way though its live on Sisi and now they are in the fix operations bugs phase once fixed we can move onto team BFF's patch and Sisi can be used to test more small changes again.
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Commandante Caldari
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2011.07.06 13:21:00 -
[243]
Originally by: MrCaptAwsm Dramiels are fine as they are.
So were Falcons
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Karii Ildarian
Caldari EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.07.06 14:00:00 -
[244]
I only have one small request, if you please.
Double missile speed and reduce max flight time by 50%.
Thanks,
Your friendly neighborhood Caldari (stop laughing at my pvp ship) pilot.
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kyrieee
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.07.06 17:37:00 -
[245]
Edited by: kyrieee on 06/07/2011 17:47:42 Edited by: kyrieee on 06/07/2011 17:41:12 Edited by: kyrieee on 06/07/2011 17:38:39 The fitting on the Oneiros is fine. If you have a problem with it it's on your end. It's however worse than the Guardian in areas where it shouldn't be, like sig radius. Give it 65m sig radius like the Scimitar and increase it's base speed by ~20-25 m/s.
Also, rep drones are worthless nobody uses them seriously. They're used in the AT where there's a limit on logis but that's irrelevant on TQ.
Someone suggested a Remote ECCM bonus and I think that would be an improvement over the current bonus.
Originally by: Suitonia Current Agility/Base Speed/Afterburner Speed/Microwarpdrive Speed/Signature Radius. Assuming all 5 and no other modules.
Guardian: 7.2/261ms/651ms/1704ms/70m Onieros: 7.9/268ms/640ms/1648ms/80m Scimitar: 6.5/316ms/785ms/2051ms/90m Basilisk:: 6.5/240ms/575ms/1481ms/65m
Those are not their base speeds, those are their speeds with skills applied
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2011.07.07 14:11:00 -
[246]
Paging CCP Tallest. Paging CCP Tallest...
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Zsur1aM
Pink Bunnies
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Posted - 2011.07.07 14:23:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Blackhorizon Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16 Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.
Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.
I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
+1
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Gothart de'Bellem
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Posted - 2011.07.07 18:46:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Zsur1aM
Originally by: Blackhorizon Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16 Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.
Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.
I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
+1
+1
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Big'Black'Snake
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Posted - 2011.07.07 19:41:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Gothart de'Bellem
Originally by: Zsur1aM
Originally by: Blackhorizon Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16 Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.
Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.
I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
+1
+ 1
+1
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BearCare
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.07.08 14:09:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Zsur1aM
Originally by: Blackhorizon Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16 Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.
Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.
I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
+1
This. |
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Electus Matari
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Posted - 2011.07.09 12:12:00 -
[251]
Regarding the Oneiros, you want it to be similar, but not identical to the Guardian - each should have their own flavor.
The Oneiros should: - Drop a mid in favor of a low slot so it can fit sensible resist mods - Be able to fit an 800mm RT plate, 4 LRAR and perma-run them if it fits an AB (not with MWD) - Be able to fit a 1600mm RT plate in the above if it puts in some kind of faction gear somewhere, or downgrades one RR to medium
The above makes it roughly equivalent to the Guardian in utility. It is more susceptible to cap warfare and can not support other fleet members with cap, but does not require a second Oneiros to work. Tank should be similar, with slightly worse EHP and similar resists. (Think about rebalancing Guardians so they require two large energy transfers to perma-run 4 LRAR even at logi 5, which reduces their extreme utility at providing 4 LRAR *and* cap bonus to fleet members; it should be able to run 3 LRAR + 1 LETA with only 1 LETA incoming and outgoing, not 4 LRAR + 1 LETA)
Next, give the Oneiros some unique flavor.
- Do not increase base armor - Give it a lower signature, higher speed and higher agility than the Guardian (I would actually argue for increasing the sig of the Guardian, not decreasing the sig of the Oneiros)
This makes the Oneiros distinctly more desirable for AHAC fleets, while the Guardian remains more useful for huge fleet fights in combination with Abaddons.
Unrelated question: Is the Abaddon on your list of ships to be rebalanced as well?
Currently, the Abaddon is distinctly the most useful battleships for pretty much all fleet types except the somewhat marginal nano BS (Machariel, Tempest). It has better resists, better EHP, better range etc. than any other BS, at very comparable dps. The drawbacks of the pulse lasers (tracking, cap use) are pretty much not noticable on the Abaddon, especially as it can fit 1-2 tracking computers and a cap injector or simply rely on Guardians to provide the cap. Additionally, it can fit artillery can be almost as useful with that (same range, same alpha, lower RoF) while having much higher tank values than the specialized Minmatar projectile ships.
It does seem to me as if the Abaddon is a bit too versatile. |
Tekashi Kovacs
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Posted - 2011.07.09 14:43:00 -
[252]
Edited by: Tekashi Kovacs on 09/07/2011 14:44:12
You guys should keep in mind that the thing that makes SCIMITAR better than ONEIROS doesnt make its "tracking link" bonus any more usefull.
Imo both, Oneiros and Scimitars bonuses needs to be replaced by something more usefull.
The problem is - what would be usefull second bonus for them? - remote sensor booster, ECCM bonus? |
BABARR
PARABELUM-Project Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2011.07.10 01:33:00 -
[253]
Edited by: BABARR on 10/07/2011 01:35:27
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Unrelated question: Is the Abaddon on your list of ships to be rebalanced as well?
Currently, the Abaddon is distinctly the most useful battleship for pretty much all fleet types except the somewhat marginal nano BS (Machariel, Tempest). It has the best resists and best EHP as well as an incredibly good combination of range and dps compared to other BS. The supposed drawbacks of the pulse lasers (tracking, cap use) are pretty much not noticable on the Abaddon, especially as it can fit 1-2 tracking computers and a cap injector or simply rely on Guardians to provide the cap. Additionally, it can fit artillery and can be almost as useful with that (same range, same alpha, lower RoF) while having much higher tank values than the specialized Minmatar projectile ships.
It does seem to me as if the Abaddon is a bit too versatile.
Yes... but no. It's the other tier 3 BS who are broken (exept the maelstrom). The hyperion... just suck, supposed to be versatile blasterboat, but really got a too big ass to be efficient, small drone bay, and no tracking (and the epic lol broken active tank broken compared to passive). And rokh.. well, who seriously pvp in a rokh? you can have a nice tank in a remote fleet, but DPS.....
Abaddon are great, yes, but they have a big ass, they are easy to catch, they don't like close ranged HAC/cruiser size, they are good only in fleet,ect. They are not good cause the stats/fit, abaddon are good because actual gamemech/strat (remote, agro timer broken, ect) |
Rostin
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Posted - 2011.07.12 17:23:00 -
[254]
Leave the dramiels alone - if you think its overpowered just start fly it! Easy.
That ship is one of most expensive frigates and I see lot of killed dramiels on KB. I suppose its superior to other frigates, but the price is adequately higher. Its fair.
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Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2011.07.12 23:51:00 -
[255]
Edited by: Aloe Cloveris on 12/07/2011 23:55:51
Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs Edited by: Tekashi Kovacs on 09/07/2011 14:44:12
You guys should keep in mind that the thing that makes SCIMITAR better than ONEIROS doesnt make its "tracking link" bonus any more usefull.
Imo both, Oneiros and Scimitars bonuses needs to be replaced by something more usefull.
The problem is - what would be usefull second bonus for them? - remote sensor booster, ECCM bonus?
An inherent Projected ECCM bonus would be kind of interesting. They already provide more sensor strength than local ECCM and with an additional bonus from the hull would make an Oneiros chain much harder to falc0wn than a Guardian chain. It would also give you the option of giving meaningful protection from an important not-logi friendly from jams as well.
An Oneiros chain would be something to consider when weighing the options between armor & endless cap from Guardian vs. armor & nigh-unjammable from Oneiros.
At any rate it's considerably more useful and less niche than Tracking Link bonuses so there's that.
Scimitars aren't as broken. Maybe give them a different bonus. idk. |
Flynn Fetladral
Caldari BlackSite Prophecy
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Posted - 2011.07.13 12:32:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Aloe Cloveris Edited by: Aloe Cloveris on 12/07/2011 23:55:51
Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs Edited by: Tekashi Kovacs on 09/07/2011 14:44:12
You guys should keep in mind that the thing that makes SCIMITAR better than ONEIROS doesnt make its "tracking link" bonus any more usefull.
Imo both, Oneiros and Scimitars bonuses needs to be replaced by something more usefull.
The problem is - what would be usefull second bonus for them? - remote sensor booster, ECCM bonus?
An inherent Projected ECCM bonus would be kind of interesting. They already provide more sensor strength than local ECCM and with an additional bonus from the hull would make an Oneiros chain much harder to falc0wn than a Guardian chain. It would also give you the option of giving meaningful protection from an important not-logi friendly from jams as well.
An Oneiros chain would be something to consider when weighing the options between armor & endless cap from Guardian vs. armor & nigh-unjammable from Oneiros.
At any rate it's considerably more useful and less niche than Tracking Link bonuses so there's that.
Scimitars aren't as broken. Maybe give them a different bonus. idk.
I do like the idea of a Projected ECCM Bonus, could shake things up against ECM boats in general. Follow Flynn on Twitter |
Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2011.07.13 14:59:00 -
[257]
Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 13/07/2011 14:59:37
Originally by: Rostin Leave the dramiels alone - if you think its overpowered just start fly it! Easy.
That ship is one of most expensive frigates and I see lot of killed dramiels on KB. I suppose its superior to other frigates, but the price is adequately higher. Its fair.
Obvious troll. Price has never been an acceptable balancing argument. During the nano age pimped out crows would come in around 200 million isk. I could still kill them in my 15 million isk Thrasher. Those nano crows still got nerfed. And so will the dramiel. Have a nice day.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.07.13 17:31:00 -
[258]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 13/07/2011 17:32:27
Quote: if you think its overpowered just start fly it! Easy.
This is just so mind blowingly stupid it doesn't deserve a reply.
Quote: That ship is one of most expensive frigates
Price is not a balancing factor.
Quote: Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better.
Nerfing the Dramiel is much easier than mass buffing. Having said that:
Quote: This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.
This. Ditch the tier system, add more variety to the game. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
s0lar pulse
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Posted - 2011.07.16 13:12:00 -
[259]
The notion Dramiels are somehow alot better than other frigates. In terms of fleet combat, is just stupid. All frigates explode very easily in fleet combat ("real engagements") and that wont change by making everything like a Dramiel (the ship explodes alot). Unless you're able to get, an insane bonus to afterbuners. Something like 3000m/sec, with a interceptor signature bonus. I dont see that changing in the near future or want it too.
Either way! Frigates are fine and one of the most useful classes of ships.
Also,I find it very ammusing so many always reference Minmatar ships and bonuses, when trying to boost another factions ship. The Oneiros is a armor tanking ship, but many people who speak to me ingame. Want the Oneiros to be EXACTLY like the Scimitar. Indeed, no one seems to notice the Scimitar has the same useless bonus as the Oneiros (omg its the only logi with that useless bonus). There is no intrest in real diversity in this game, at all (atleast consciously). There are pilots in this thread, who have argued for diversity and in the next breath; Suggested, making one ship (Oneiros) exactly like another (Scimitar).
(Yes! Lets all fly around in our nano-armor-tanked battlecruisers) = /
Oneiros: If this ship cant tank better than its counter part. It should be able to repair other ships better.
-Focus on increasing Remote armore repair or Drone armor repair amount, -lowering signature radius -capacitor -and possibly increasing the ships resistence.
Daramiel: Good luck figuring out how to nerf this thing, without making it useless. Compared to a firetail atleast, which it will be as fast as lol.
Honestly even if you gimp the speed it will still be a very good frigate. Mainly, because of its tank and damage. Few frigates ingame are able to dual prop and maintain good damage and tank: Taranis, Comet, Dramiel, Firetail, Rifter, Ishkur (tracking Issue), and Jaguar (tracking issue). The Dramiels afterbuner velocity was always its advantage. Changing it would make dissengageing more difficult, but still very viable. However, if you realy want to hurt the Dramiel. Nerf damage or remove a midslot, which would hurt tank. Either way, I'm fine with the ship as is.
-proxyyyy
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Varrent
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.07.16 17:49:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Big'Black'Snake
Originally by: Gothart de'Bellem
Originally by: Zsur1aM
Originally by: Blackhorizon Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16 Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.
Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.
I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
+1
+ 1
+1
+1
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.07.17 09:48:00 -
[261]
Originally by: s0lar pulse Also,I find it very ammusing so many always reference Minmatar ships and bonuses, when trying to boost another factions ship. The Oneiros is a armor tanking ship, but many people who speak to me ingame. Want the Oneiros to be EXACTLY like the Scimitar. Indeed, no one seems to notice the Scimitar has the same useless bonus as the Oneiros (omg its the only logi with that useless bonus). There is no intrest in real diversity in this game, at all (atleast consciously). There are pilots in this thread, who have argued for diversity and in the next breath; Suggested, making one ship (Oneiros) exactly like another (Scimitar).
This is not at all what we are getting at. The main issue is not whether the bonus to tracking links is useless (not entirely, btw) or that they are not "like the Scimitar", but more fundamental to the ship role itself. If you look at the logistics ships, you find two groups: remote cap transfer supported and independent. Nothing is wrong with the former, both the Basilisk and the Guardian work well in their intended roles.
For the second pair, you immediately notice something something odd. Despite them supposedly belonging to separate tanking doctrines, they share the same 4/5/4 slot layout. This means that the Oneiros with its armour transfer bonus is in fact inclined towards shield tanking. This is made even more apparent when you see the armour tank you are able to fit.
The obvious change would then be to swap a midslot for another low, allowing for more resist mods and a sturdier tank. You would still lack the grid to fit a 1600mm plate like you do on the Guardian, but that's fine. The same relation exists for the Basilisk/Scimitar pair, with the former sporting the heavier tank.
This would actually make it less like the Scimitar, because you now run into a slight cap stability issue by losing the third cap recharger you would normally fit. The solution to this could lie in the Oneiros surprisingly large cargohold. The 600m3 space is perfectly suited for cap boosters, while at the same time freeing up another mid for a utility mod like, say, a tracking link (assuming MWD/ECCM/booster in the other three slots).
IMHO, this is just as obvious a change as the warp speed boost, but one could still argue that the utility bonus needs looking at. Personally I have nothing against the tracking links and have used them on occasion with the Scimitar, supporting long range Machariels, and I know titan pilots will love you long time if you touch that special spot. A bonus to local tank could also be very interesting and make them viable for solo supporting small (<10) gangs. Remote ECCM has been mentioned in the thread, although my opinion is that would make them less independent and more like their Basilisk/Guardian counterparts. Still, this is not a necessary inclusion in the first step of balancing and they do work fine with the current bonus.
So CCP Tallest, are we there yet?
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.07.17 15:09:00 -
[262]
I know that the Tracking Link bonus can be quite helpful in some very specific situations where it would probably have been a better idea to bring a Guardian over the Oneiros due to constant repping capability from cap chaining however dropping it for a remote ECCM Bonus is perfect. I've been thinking about it for a while now. Long before this thread started and I'm glad I'm not alone. The R-ECCM bonus gives fleets the option of either choosing the Guardian to be highly resistant to Neuts or the Oneiros to be highly resistant to ECM. However switching slots around might not be a good idea for the Oneiros. Especially considering it looks like its going to get a base armour buff anyway. Plus a velocity buff too which all help towards tanking. The Scimitar however could probably drop a low or two for more mids so that it can actually fit a tank and still use its utility bonus.
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Flynn Fetladral
Caldari BlackSite Prophecy
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Posted - 2011.07.17 19:23:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Scandal Caulker I know that the Tracking Link bonus can be quite helpful in some very specific situations where it would probably have been a better idea to bring a Guardian over the Oneiros due to constant repping capability from cap chaining however dropping it for a remote ECCM Bonus is perfect. I've been thinking about it for a while now. Long before this thread started and I'm glad I'm not alone. The R-ECCM bonus gives fleets the option of either choosing the Guardian to be highly resistant to Neuts or the Oneiros to be highly resistant to ECM. However switching slots around might not be a good idea for the Oneiros. Especially considering it looks like its going to get a base armour buff anyway. Plus a velocity buff too which all help towards tanking. The Scimitar however could probably drop a low or two for more mids so that it can actually fit a tank and still use its utility bonus.
Yeah, I've thought more and more about how powerful a Remote ECCM bonus could be for roaming gangs to help off-set the ECM menace. That, or introduce an actual dedicated anti e-war ship.
Follow Flynn on Twitter |
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.07.18 02:09:00 -
[264]
Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 18/07/2011 02:18:49 Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 18/07/2011 02:18:24 Agree that the Oneiros slot layout may need some rethinking, since it currently is unable to maintain cap stability and fit a good tank, unlike all the other logistics ships. However, the other logistics are rather well-balanced. The Scimitar and the Basilisk both have their roles, and both see quite a bit of use, although the Scimitar is nominally superior since it has greater freedom of movement and does not rely on a cap chain which is susceptible to fail cascades, even if it usually cannot permarun four large shield transfers.
Originally by: Arkady Sadik (Think about rebalancing Guardians so they require two large energy transfers to perma-run 4 LRAR even at logi 5, which reduces their extreme utility at providing 4 LRAR *and* cap bonus to fleet members; it should be able to run 3 LRAR + 1 LETA with only 1 LETA incoming and outgoing, not 4 LRAR + 1 LETA)
I'm not sure how such a change would be possible, and it would in any case be rather undesirable. The Guardian can indeed theoretically run four large remote armor reppers and two energy transfers from a single incoming energy transfer, if the pilot has trained Logistics V. In my experience many logistics pilots do not have Logistics V, for various reasons. Even with Logistics V, the Guardian in practical terms is very tight on CPU and to a lesser extent on powergrid and thus, like the Oneiros, cannot actually fit four large remote armor reppers without sacrificing hit points (downgrading from a 1600 to an 800 plate) or sacrificing resistances (spending low slots and rig slots on powergrid-boosting modules), or spending quite a bit of ISK on faction modules (which is prohibitively expensive considering the average lifespan of a logistics ship in many sizable fleet engagement is measured in seconds). This is why most fleet Guardians fit 3.5 large remote armor reppers (3x LRAR and 1x MRAR).
The Guardian does attain slightly higher EHP and has higher resistances when fitting 3.5 LRARs, and does not have to sacrifice cap to fit an ECCM module. However, the Guardian energy spider is very vulnerable to hostile ECM and energy neutralizers. If not all Guardian pilots have Logistics V (and I have yet to see a cap chain where every pilot has Logistics V after several months of flying nothing but Logistics ships in fleets), then the entire cap chain can collapse once an inexperienced pilot with Logistics IV runs out of cap. Furthermore, while the loss of a single Oneiros has no effect on the other Oneiroses, except that the entire fleet's tank is reduced, the loss of multiple Guardians in quick succession can irreperably break the cap chain, rendering the remaining Guardians virtually useless until it is re-established.
As far as providing energy to fleet members, in practical terms even if all Guardian pilots have Logistics V, no sane logistics boss will ever order logistics pilots to give cap to fleet members unless he knows for a fact that the enemy has no ECM or other EWAR and no energy neutralizers. Else the entire cap chain can cascade in a matter of seconds.
So overall I'd say logistics ships are very nicely balanced, both between one another and in terms of their class role. The Oneiros could benefit from an additional low slot, which might increase its usefulness. It is the one logistics ship I have not flown thus far, but I do see it used in fleet engagements, and while it does appear to be more fragile, this may be due to poor setups rather than due to any failing in ship design.
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Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.07.18 02:18:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Flynn Fetladral
Originally by: Scandal Caulker I know that the Tracking Link bonus can be quite helpful in some very specific situations where it would probably have been a better idea to bring a Guardian over the Oneiros due to constant repping capability from cap chaining however dropping it for a remote ECCM Bonus is perfect. I've been thinking about it for a while now. Long before this thread started and I'm glad I'm not alone. The R-ECCM bonus gives fleets the option of either choosing the Guardian to be highly resistant to Neuts or the Oneiros to be highly resistant to ECM. However switching slots around might not be a good idea for the Oneiros. Especially considering it looks like its going to get a base armour buff anyway. Plus a velocity buff too which all help towards tanking. The Scimitar however could probably drop a low or two for more mids so that it can actually fit a tank and still use its utility bonus.
Yeah, I've thought more and more about how powerful a Remote ECCM bonus could be for roaming gangs to help off-set the ECM menace. That, or introduce an actual dedicated anti e-war ship.
The problem with remote ECCM chains is that once a single logistics in that chain is jammed, it is more than twice as easy to jam his ECCM buddy. This is why most logistics fit local rather than remote ECCM, even though remote ECCM gives a greater paper bonus to sensor strength.
A dedicated support ship for projected support effects such as remote ECCM, perhaps cruiser or maybe even battlecruiser size may be a very good idea.
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Ivor Reganold Biggen
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.07.18 08:56:00 -
[266]
Edited by: Ivor Reganold Biggen on 18/07/2011 08:57:35
Originally by: Alice Katsuko
Originally by: Flynn Fetladral
Originally by: Scandal Caulker I know that the Tracking Link bonus can be quite helpful in some very specific situations where it would probably have been a better idea to bring a Guardian over the Oneiros due to constant repping capability from cap chaining however dropping it for a remote ECCM Bonus is perfect. I've been thinking about it for a while now. Long before this thread started and I'm glad I'm not alone. The R-ECCM bonus gives fleets the option of either choosing the Guardian to be highly resistant to Neuts or the Oneiros to be highly resistant to ECM. However switching slots around might not be a good idea for the Oneiros. Especially considering it looks like its going to get a base armour buff anyway. Plus a velocity buff too which all help towards tanking. The Scimitar however could probably drop a low or two for more mids so that it can actually fit a tank and still use its utility bonus.
Yeah, I've thought more and more about how powerful a Remote ECCM bonus could be for roaming gangs to help off-set the ECM menace. That, or introduce an actual dedicated anti e-war ship.
The problem with remote ECCM chains is that once a single logistics in that chain is jammed, it is more than twice as easy to jam his ECCM buddy. This is why most logistics fit local rather than remote ECCM, even though remote ECCM gives a greater paper bonus to sensor strength.
A dedicated support ship for projected support effects such as remote ECCM, perhaps cruiser or maybe even battlecruiser size may be a very good idea.
I tend to think about the Scimatar and the Oneiros in the situation of being the lone logistics ship in a smaller gang, so in a situation like that it would become the logistics with added anti-ewar. But the idea of a dedicated anti-ewar ships is pretty cool I have to admit.
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Roffle Roffle
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:11:00 -
[267]
I was expecting CCP to be removing the infinite cap thing from guardian/oneiros and fixing the tiny sig radius they all have (also maybe making it so pirates can actually use between 0 and 2 of them at a time). Instead I see everyone just wants the oneiros to be better, and for the current state of logistics being ridiculous to continue.
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Roffle Roffle
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:13:00 -
[268]
Also making it so assisting a ship that cannot dock/jump makes you unable to dock/jump.
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.07.18 23:19:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Scandal Caulker The R-ECCM bonus gives fleets the option of either choosing the Guardian to be highly resistant to Neuts or the Oneiros to be highly resistant to ECM.
The problem here is, as already noted, that you again become dependent on a logistics chain and unlike the redundant dual cap chain it cascades if you break a single link.
Quote: However switching slots around might not be a good idea for the Oneiros. Especially considering it looks like its going to get a base armour buff anyway. Plus a velocity buff too which all help towards tanking.
It was tossed out as a suggestion by CCP Tallest, but it's imho not very well thought out from a flavour point of view to give it more armour tank than the Guardian, although speed and sig are more in line with the ship role. A fifth low is needed either way to fit more resists mods since just more raw armour is not all that helpful, tbh.
Quote: The Scimitar however could probably drop a low or two for more mids so that it can actually fit a tank and still use its utility bonus.
Dropping low slots means you will run into grid issues fitting MWD, LSE and three large transfers. You need those to fit PDS/RCU and also CPRs to deal with the fact that you use the mids for tank rather than cap. It is really only the Oneiros that needs some loving right now.
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.07.20 16:00:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Lucas Quaan
[About a R-ECCM Bonus] The problem here is, as already noted, that you again become dependent on a logistics chain and unlike the redundant dual cap chain it cascades if you break a single link.
I don't see why this would be a problem. The Oneiros/Scimitar would be logi-chaining in a different way to the Guardian/Basilisk. You could even chain Oneiros' and Guardians together in a large fleet where one provides ECCM cover and the other helps with Cap stability.
Also, it is simply a choice to logi chain with a R-ECCM bonus. You can still fit a local ECCM and a R-ECCM with the high number of mid slots you have.
If you REALLY don't want the Oneiros to have a remote utility bonus then why not a Capacitor Booster boost amount bonus so it can get more out of a cap boosting setup.
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GTN
The Reformed Bondage Patrol
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Posted - 2011.07.21 18:12:00 -
[271]
Edited by: GTN on 21/07/2011 18:12:10 More HP and resists for Hel and Ragnarok... just check QEN to see how many ppl fly those ships -.- Or at least make them go way faster. Boost fighter bombers damage, as it is now, 1 alone supercarrier can't kill a triage carrier.
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.07.22 10:00:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Scandal Caulker
Originally by: Lucas Quaan
[About a R-ECCM Bonus] The problem here is, as already noted, that you again become dependent on a logistics chain and unlike the redundant dual cap chain it cascades if you break a single link.
I don't see why this would be a problem. The Oneiros/Scimitar would be logi-chaining in a different way to the Guardian/Basilisk. You could even chain Oneiros' and Guardians together in a large fleet where one provides ECCM cover and the other helps with Cap stability.
Also, it is simply a choice to logi chain with a R-ECCM bonus. You can still fit a local ECCM and a R-ECCM with the high number of mid slots you have.
If you REALLY don't want the Oneiros to have a remote utility bonus then why not a Capacitor Booster boost amount bonus so it can get more out of a cap boosting setup.
I don't have anything against it per se, I just don't think it's very good in practice. With an ECCM chain, you become easier to break the more jams you get, unlike local ECCM, where every ship is equally hard to break no matter how many previous jams you have.
On paper this looks similar to cap chains for Basilisk/Guardian, but they can run dual chains, increasing their resistance. You can't really afford to run dual ECCM here, sacrificing cap on the Oneiros or tank on the Scimitar.
The other thing is that any chain is weaker for lower numbers. I like to think of the Oneiros/Scimitar as the "skirmish" logis, working independently solo or in small groups for medium sized gangs (~25 pilots). In that scenario, I prefer something that is not dependant on setting up chains. Personally I still think a local tank bonus is the most interesting option.
This is of course a view on their intended role and people can have different opinions on that. Matching bonuses with roles is what creates diversity and motivates training of a particular ship. We will therefore have to agree on a role before moving on to arguing utility bonuses.
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Jon Marburg
The Executioners Capital.Punishment
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Posted - 2011.07.22 12:12:00 -
[273]
Definitely in favorite of these incremental balancing adjustments and hope to see more similar tweaks in the future. I love that CCP is actually asking for help and advice and it is a positive trend that should continue!
Logistics- It really is about time the warp speed change happened for them, but that is a minor issue in the scope of all things logistics. First off the tracking link bonus for the Oneiros and Scimitar doesn't mesh well with their current role in small gang logistics. In their current form it is next to impossible to fit a link without giving up something critical to their primary role of remote repair. A viable alternative to fix this would be to adjust the remote repair capacitor use on these two ships to roughly -17.5% per level from -15%. Doing this would allow these logistics to remove a mid slot cap mod in favor of the link.
In regards to the Oneiros in particular it doesn't need an adjustment to power grid as much as one to its capacitor. Most Oneiros fits I've seen are those with MWD and/or cap boosters causing unnecessary use of power grid and I feel diverges from the correct logistic ship model. Well piloted logistic ships should be able to sustain their repairs without the need for consumables and rely on sig radius and resists for their tank as demonstrated by every other logistic ship. However, if you attempt to fit an Oneiros in a similar fashion you quickly run into capacitor uses and requires a full set of all the relevant implants to come anywhere close to stability. A good solution to this problem would be to move a mid slot to a low, allowing a capacitor power relay to be fit providing a 4% increase in recharge. And when you think about it on just a superficial level, it makes sense that an armor tanked ship would have more low slots than mids anyways.
When compared with the Scimitar and Guardian, it makes sense that the Oneiros would have less effective hitpoints in favor of a speed tank like that of the Scimitar in order to provide support for small quick gangs on roams or camps rather than the resist and buffer of a fleet logistics like the Guardian. However when compared with both ships it has roughly the ehp of the Scimitar but only marginally faster than the Guardian. In order for the Oneiros to fit its role it needs to have the capability to avoid damage to make up for its lack of ehp. To achieve this goal, the Oneiros should probably receive a minor increase in base speed of 12-17 m/s before skills so that its speed and resulting damage avoidance is more in line with its role as a small gang logistic ship.
Dramiel- It really is about time that the Dramiel was brought back into line with the other pirate faction frigates. The speed change sounds appropriate so far although I would also remove the drone bay and shift that damage back into the guns. This would tone down its effective dps on frigate hulls due to falloff and transversal while still applying decent damage on slower, larger ships and still allowing it to defend itself from enemy drones. This change would also increase the skillpoints necessary to get the most out of the ship, making it less of the go-to tackle and frig combat platform.
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Mercille Yathian
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Posted - 2011.07.24 06:27:00 -
[274]
Sounds like a minma^H^H^H^H^Hcloak addicted devs trying to remove the only viable decloaking ship in game. Return to the cloaking online doesn't exactly sound like a fascinating idea.
As in before the changes Dramiel was the only ship capable of decloaking any ship jumping in from a non-regional gate. After such changes, to counter a SINGLE cloaking ship you would need multiple decloaking ships (in addition to bubble/web/dps ships). So if you intend to reduce Dramiel's utility for decloaking role, introducing another ship for decloaking role would be the right thing to do. And to keep things balanced, such a ship should be vulnerable to bombs from stealth bombers, especially with mwd on.
Also nerfing scan resolution mainly affects the time carebears have to warp off after a dramiel lands next to them. In other scenarios base scanres does not mean that much, since with RSBs you can get 10k scanres anyway if that is what you want.
P.S. For those not so fond of manual piloting, having a command for "bump" or "ram" instead of "approach" and "keep at range" would be nice. |
Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2011.07.24 14:08:00 -
[275]
Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 24/07/2011 14:08:41 DPS. Tanking. Speed. Pick 2 of the three for the Dramiel. It currently has all three. I would not mind if the Dramiel maintained it's DPS and dual prop status - IF it lost the ability to fit a MSE. I similarly would not mind if the Dramiel kept it's DPS and hit points - IF it lost it's GTGO ability. In short - it can't continue to 'have it all'
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Tom Gerard
Caldari Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
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Posted - 2011.07.25 13:57:00 -
[276]
Dramiel nerf is insufficient if it still retains infinite tracking at 20km. |
Ruhige Schmerz
New Eden Scientific Association
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Posted - 2011.07.25 14:11:00 -
[277]
Leave the annoying dramiel speed alone. It's not too fast, the speed is fine.
Just do as others have already suggested and tone down its drones some. Reduce drone bandwidth to 10, problem solved.
I don't really care that it can run away at will, just that it doesn't run away often enough. |
Tom Gerard
Caldari Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
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Posted - 2011.07.25 14:45:00 -
[278]
Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz Leave the annoying dramiel speed alone. It's not too fast, the speed is fine.
Just do as others have already suggested and tone down its drones some. Reduce drone bandwidth to 10, problem solved.
I don't really care that it can run away at will, just that it doesn't run away often enough.
The speed nerf will add risk to flying a Dramiel. But it will still sit at 20km dealing 200+ damage obsoleteing t1 cruisers and t1 frigates in all but price.
It needs to trade its falloff bonus for a damage bonus. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.07.25 16:21:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Tom Gerard ...
Huh? Three drones account for ~60dps (as if hobgoblins are ever used these days ) and guns do ~35dps@20km (1xfalloff) using Barrage. Kill the drones and laugh as he struggles to overcome passive recharge.
PS: Slicer gets ~150dps@20km with scorch, but like the DD it is not considered OP just annoying as hell
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Skullair
Red Bat Inc.
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Posted - 2011.07.26 19:23:00 -
[280]
Drams IMO is a AF and Ceptor combined same for a DD...as the Dram leans more to the ceptro side on the combo and DD more to the AF side on how they are flown. So Why would u lower the Scan res of the Dram so it locks slower its a tackler not a DPS ship as the DD is. i dont see the need for this change the ship is like a ceptor speed drop ok (the speed chance is not that major of a gimp) but affecting its speed of tackleing is a bit annoying.
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Ignition SemperFi
No Falcons Allowed
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Posted - 2011.07.27 00:23:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 27/07/2011 00:23:30 CCP admitted years ago that the nighthawk's grid was loltastic and needed fixed, still waiting.
As a field commandship, that predates the drake, it was bad enough. Now with the drake its borderline fullweetard. oh and dont ever try to fit a gang link and have a decent fit, or even try to use hams (granted they predate the nighthawk as well) ---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
New PVP Movie - Space Vikings II |
Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2011.07.27 04:10:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Skullair Drams IMO is a AF and Ceptor combined
And therein lies the problem. It outintercepts interceptors. It outAFs AFs. There is literally no reason to fly any of the 16 assfrig+interceptor hulls while the Dramiel outperforms them in every metric. Superfast locktime will be the domain of interceptors. As well it should be.
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Honsou Blackblade
Minmatar Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
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Posted - 2011.07.27 06:56:00 -
[283]
Remove split weapons on Naglfar.... please?
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rensshopping
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Posted - 2011.07.27 09:45:00 -
[284]
just redo hybrids to be like all other guns but have a slight pro/con
why exactly does it have to be special again?
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Shadow Wind
Gallente Crimson Empire.
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Posted - 2011.07.27 17:55:00 -
[285]
Hybrids should do the same amount of damage at all ranges but with modifiers to tracking/range for different ammo types. Switching ammo should be quick so we can adapt to different situations too. Decrease volume of ammo and increase how many we can hold in the guns before needing to reload would be a good step as well.
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Skullair
Minmatar Red Bat Inc.
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Posted - 2011.07.27 18:07:00 -
[286]
Edited by: Skullair on 27/07/2011 18:07:50
Originally by: Aloe Cloveris
Originally by: Skullair Drams IMO is a AF and Ceptor combined
And therein lies the problem. It outintercepts interceptors. It outAFs AFs. There is literally no reason to fly any of the 16 assfrig+interceptor hulls while the Dramiel outperforms them in every metric. Superfast locktime will be the domain of interceptors. As well it should be.
well the resoun to fly a the regular frigs is the price u pay a lot more for a dram for hull and fit
Also if u let a lot of AF get on top of u in a dram u most likely lose if u dont run away
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Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2011.07.27 20:51:00 -
[287]
Originally by: Skullair u pay a lot more for a dram for hull and fit
Drams would be cheap at thrice the price for what they're capable of. That said, this scaling cost:effectiveness way of thinking is how we arrived at supercarriers in their current broken-as-**** incarnation
Originally by: Skullair Also if u let a lot of AF get on top of u in a dram u most likely lose if u dont run away
Disengaging from an unfavorable situation in a Dramiel is as easy as activating one of the two prop mods and blindly double-clicking anywhere in space. Speed and align will have you out of point range before the AF pilot's overview refreshes. Hell, you could take a few volleys on your way out thanks to your healthy MSE buffer. Neuted? No worries! Your capacitor is large enough that you'll regen a sufficient amount to at least AB or even mwd out of neut range between cycles.
Originally by: Skullair if u dont run away
Of course you'll run away. Because you can. Nothing can stop you (providing you didn't stick around while a bunch of Rapiers appeared on grid).
tl;dr: Dramiels won't die in the hands of an even mildly competent pilot. ****'s broken, yo. |
Jiao Governator
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Posted - 2011.07.28 19:30:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Ignition SemperFi Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 27/07/2011 00:23:30 CCP admitted years ago that the nighthawk's grid was loltastic and needed fixed, still waiting.
As a field commandship, that predates the drake, it was bad enough. Now with the drake its borderline fullweetard. oh and dont ever try to fit a gang link and have a decent fit, or even try to use hams (granted they predate the nighthawk as well)
This. And the NH could use another mid slot too (maybe with less base shield HP). |
Red Countess
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Posted - 2011.07.29 17:21:00 -
[289]
Edited by: Red Countess on 29/07/2011 17:21:36 Edited by: Red Countess on 29/07/2011 17:20:55 Interesting in what frigate pvp has turned in since dramiels were (over)buffed.
http://postimage.org/image/2i2sq0xtw/
I say let them be speed demons that they are, since variety is always welcomed but don't let them have it all, that is to say a tank and dps on top of it.
-Keep there speed as it is -Complete removal of drones -Slight nerf to there tank
That way they can still be best tackling ship out there for those that want to put isk into it, but it wont be solo pwnmobile that ruins frigate pvp and completely pushes interceptors out of the scene. If you have ship that can so drastically outrun interceptor then it shouldn't have tank close to that of AF and near 200 dps.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.07.31 12:06:00 -
[290]
Drones gone and remove a mid, IMO.
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Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.08.01 06:14:00 -
[291]
Edited by: Mutnin on 01/08/2011 06:14:57
Originally by: CCP Tallest Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far:
Why not start by doing away with the tier system? If there is one single thing that makes a vast majority of ships with-in EVE next to useless it is the tier system.
Each ship should fill a role that can be useful, rather than just be a gimped ship that only fills a slot in an out dated tier system. If you want to re-balance ships start by making the bulk of them useful.
Start with the frigs and work your way up.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2011.08.01 15:11:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Mutnin
Why not start by doing away with the tier system? If there is one single thing that makes a vast majority of ships with-in EVE next to useless it is the tier system.
Each ship should fill a role that can be useful, rather than just be a gimped ship that only fills a slot in an out dated tier system. If you want to re-balance ships start by making the bulk of them useful.
Start with the frigs and work your way up.
I'd rather they spent their time on things other then this. When you get into the ships, it's more other issues then the tier system. Take Minmatar -
Frigates:
- Burst - bare bones to see if you're interested in mining. You need to be out of this in a week. Really.
- Slasher - Super fast and super cheap. Overheating you can get it to 6.3km/s. Not bad tackle for a 30k isk ship.
- Vigil - Let's face it. If the target painter weren't a lame e-war or if the ship got a different e-war then this frigate would be a much nicer ship. Noone complains about the Griffin.
- Finally, the two DPS frigates are very different. The breacher is a missile spammer that can hit way out and the rifter is a gun boat.
In short, if CCP were to do an e-war overhaul I wouldn't have a problem with the above.
Cruisers:
- Scythe - needs a different logistics bonus.
- Bellicose - Same problem as the vigil. An e-war overhaul would redo the ship.
- And the Stabber and Rupture, again, are two very different ships with different pros and cons.
Again, the above ships need a logistics and e-war makeover - not a complete remake. I'd rather CCP look at hybrids, hybrid platforms, supercarriers, etc.
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Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.08.02 02:16:00 -
[293]
Edited by: Mutnin on 02/08/2011 02:24:24
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
I'd rather they spent their time on things other then this. When you get into the ships, it's more other issues then the tier system. Take Minmatar -
Frigates:
- Burst - bare bones to see if you're interested in mining. You need to be out of this in a week. Really.
- Slasher - Super fast and super cheap. Overheating you can get it to 6.3km/s. Not bad tackle for a 30k isk ship.
- Vigil - Let's face it. If the target painter weren't a lame e-war or if the ship got a different e-war then this frigate would be a much nicer ship. Noone complains about the Griffin.
- Finally, the two DPS frigates are very different. The breacher is a missile spammer that can hit way out and the rifter is a gun boat.
In short, if CCP were to do an e-war overhaul I wouldn't have a problem with the above.
Cruisers:
- Scythe - needs a different logistics bonus.
- Bellicose - Same problem as the vigil. An e-war overhaul would redo the ship.
- And the Stabber and Rupture, again, are two very different ships with different pros and cons.
Again, the above ships need a logistics and e-war makeover - not a complete remake. I'd rather CCP look at hybrids, hybrid platforms, supercarriers, etc.
You are kind of describing the reason the tier system is bad TBH.
Using the example of the Breacher & the Vigil.
The Vigil isn't bad and is one of the rare lower tier frigs that can work but it requires high SP's to do so. The Breacher on the other had actually has potential but that potential was lost when it was put into the tier system.
Think if the Breacher had the 10 slot layout like the Rifter (I don't mean same layout but 10 slots as top tier frigs have) with matching grid upgrades. You would then have a quite capable lil missile spammer and a useful T1 frig.
Yet because it has to fit in it's tier it's stuck with a 8 slot layout that pretty much gimps it just enough to not be useful and it's pretty much non existent in space because of the tier system.
The Amarr Inquisitor suffers from this same problem but it's almost workable much like the Vigil due to being "almost" top tier with 9 slow layouts.
Ships like the Probe or Burst are not combat bonused ships, so I wouldn't really include them. I just think the game would be better off if all combat ships were not limited by their spot in the tier system with limited slot layouts but rather defined by their bonus & roles.
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Marcus Caspius
Caldari Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
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Posted - 2011.08.02 05:10:00 -
[294]
The Dramiel is x5 or x6 the price than a regular t2 Frig and you have to train two ship skills to fly it. Off course is going to be proportionately more powerful.
I hate it when people just wanna nerf stuff.
Grow some b@ll$, train up some skills, stop being such a cheapskate and get your own Dramiel.
How do you beat a Dramiel? Buy and fly a Dramiel...
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.02 10:40:00 -
[295]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 02/08/2011 10:41:40
Quote: The Dramiel is x5 or x6 the price than a regular t2 Frig and you have to train two ship skills to fly it. Off course is going to be proportionately more powerful.
This is the idiotic line of thinking that got applied to supercarriers. Look what happened there.
I'll put this nice and simply for a nice simple person: price is not a balancing factor.
Also two ship skills is nothing. 2 racial frigates is what, two weeks? And sure they're 55mil but if you're a remotely competent pilot, you just won't die in it.
Quote: How do you beat a Dramiel? Buy and fly a Dramiel...Twisted Evil
Which is exactly the situation that needs to be avoided at all costs. ROLL ON DRAMIEL NERF. I only hope the other stupidly OP Angel ships follow :D
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Viribus
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
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Posted - 2011.08.02 16:32:00 -
[296]
Sweet, once again CCP gets things completely wrong.
The Dram doesn't need a nerf to its speed. A speedy faction ship is needed and a good way to have some variation within the class
The problems with the dram is that it's too tanky for the DPS and speed it goes. It should be:
- DPS - Speed - Tank
Pick two. But nerfing the speed leaves it as just yet another tanky DPS frigate, which we already have tons of. Leave the dramiel in its niche as high-damage tackle but either nerf its base HP or make it harder to fit an MSE so it can't easily 1v1 most other frig hulls.
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Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.08.02 19:16:00 -
[297]
Edited by: Mutnin on 02/08/2011 19:20:41
Originally by: Marcus Caspius The Dramiel is x5 or x6 the price than a regular t2 Frig and you have to train two ship skills to fly it. Off course is going to be proportionately more powerful.
I hate it when people just wanna nerf stuff.
Grow some b@ll$, train up some skills, stop being such a cheapskate and get your own Dramiel.
How do you beat a Dramiel? Buy and fly a Dramiel...
If that is the only reason the Dram should be good, then why are the other Pirate faction ships so bad?
Also if you base your theory by training time then Assualt frigs & interceptors should be ubber being it takes much longer to train AF or ceptors to V vs just training another racial frig to V. (ie it's quicker to max out the ship skills for a Dramiel than for an Ishkur for example)
Also price isn't a balance method.
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Yulinki Atavuli
Minmatar Caldari Investment and Security Industries Innovia Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.02 20:00:00 -
[298]
i believe dramiels are fine the way they are. in my cane if you get within 10k you are dead.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.02 22:05:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Marcus Caspius How do you beat a Dramiel? Buy and fly a Dramiel...
Guys lets all fly nothing but dramiels all the time, there's 60 different frigates in the game but we should shelve 59 of them, this will make EVE an interesting and varied space combat game
(you are stupid)
-----------------
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.02 22:56:00 -
[300]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 02/08/2011 22:59:25
Quote: i believe dramiels are fine the way they are. in my cane if you get within 10k you are dead.
So they're fine because they occasionally die with a stupid pilot flying them? Also good luck getting your cane in range of a Dramiel that doesn't want you to.
Seriously, I have yet to see a single remotely convincing argument against nerfing the Dramiel. It's always the same few points: "oh it costs more so it should be amazing" "dramiels do die, so that makes them fine" "OMFG JUST FLY ONE URSELF THEN LOLOLOL BRB GOING TO PLAY SOME COUNTERSTRIEK"
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.08.03 12:19:00 -
[301]
Edited by: Scandal Caulker on 03/08/2011 12:31:34 I've been thinking about Super Carriers and how to rebalance them. At the minute SC's have a redicudunkulous amount of EHP due to the buff they received recently. This has made them nearly impossible to kill as the player can simply log off and unless you have a SupCap fleet you can't kill them in time.
So... Instead of playing with log off aggression timers and stuff why not nerf the EHP back but give the ships excellent active tanking abilities. Maybe remove their bonuses for Remote Repair (no one seems to fit for this anyway) and switch these to active tanking bonuses. Like a repair amount bonus or module duration bonus. These ships will still be very tough to kill if caught alone and with logistical support from other standard carriers tough as nails.
Edit: Oh and introduce X-Large rigs and X-Large Capacitor Boosters for capital ships.
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.08.03 12:45:00 -
[302]
Been thinking about Dreadnoughts too. Currently they have a single purpose which is POS Bashing and requires them to be in Siege mode to be worth anything in this role. This seems to be fine but in any other situation (ie combat) Siege mode is undesirable. The drawbacks to entering Siege mode in combat make it near impossible to hit anything smaller than a moon if it has any form of transversal. The 10 minute timer is also horrid compared to 5 minute timer on a triage module.
The Siege module works well when in "Siege mode". What I'm suggesting is that the module has two different modes. "Siege mode" is how we know it right now but "Combat Mode" would not cripple the hull when fighting ship to ship. Combat mode would not give the ship the same offensive buff but would also not reduce the weapons tracking or immobilise the ship. Combat mode should also have a shorter timer. 5 minutes maximum maybe even shorter to improve survivability and encourage use of going in and out of "Combat Mode" to be able to receive logistical support.
Obviously the ship will not be able to jump or enter warp whilst in "Combat Mode".
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.03 13:14:00 -
[303]
Why would anyone use siege mode when combat mode offers all the benefits for none of the drawbacks?
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.08.03 13:28:00 -
[304]
Edited by: Scandal Caulker on 03/08/2011 13:29:53
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Why would anyone use siege mode when combat mode offers all the benefits for none of the drawbacks?
Like I said:
Originally by: Scandal Caulker "Combat Mode" would not cripple the hull when fighting ship to ship. Combat mode would not give the ship the same offensive buff but would also not reduce the weapons tracking or immobilise the ship.
The Idea is to give similar survivability but lower offensive capability without the tracking, Scan resolution or immobilising draw backs. You would still want to use "Siege Mode" when hitting structures. Combat mode could also use up a lot more fuel as a draw back.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.03 14:07:00 -
[305]
Just how low are we talking here, exactly?
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.08.03 14:17:00 -
[306]
I don't know. This idea is in its infancy and could be number crunched to death. How much DPS do you think a Dread should be able to deal ship to ship while in this theoretical "Combat Mode" that uses 2 or 3 times more fuel per cycle?
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Yulinki Atavuli
Minmatar Caldari Investment and Security Industries Innovia Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.03 20:18:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 02/08/2011 22:59:25
Quote: i believe dramiels are fine the way they are. in my cane if you get within 10k you are dead.
So they're fine because they occasionally die with a stupid pilot flying them? Also good luck getting your cane in range of a Dramiel that doesn't want you to.
Seriously, I have yet to see a single remotely convincing argument against nerfing the Dramiel. It's always the same few points: "oh it costs more so it should be amazing" "dramiels do die, so that makes them fine" "OMFG JUST FLY ONE URSELF THEN LOLOLOL BRB GOING TO PLAY SOME COUNTERSTRIEK"
sure, if i run into a guy that does nothing but go from solo fight to solo fight in a dramiel then sure, he would be awesome and nearly impossible to take out.
but for instance the average pilot would just click orbit. if he does that then he is dead. all you have to do is fly right into his orbit and grab him. and with an average distance of 20k orbit at THE MOST. then i can be there in about 5-10 seconds.
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Badger Beard
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Posted - 2011.08.04 21:56:00 -
[308]
Will the changes to the ships be first trialled on Sisi (so we have a chance to get first hand experience of the changes, offer better feedback and perhaps allow the opportunity for fine tuning) before they are applied to Tranq? |
Bob Niac
Gallente freelancers inc Imperial 0rder
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Posted - 2011.08.05 04:12:00 -
[309]
Refocus logi roles
Check out my post history if you want my opinions on logi. A lot in there.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2011.08.05 13:57:00 -
[310]
Didn't CCP Tallest get back from vacation on the 2nd? "Warriors, Come out and Plaaaaay!"
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.08.05 15:24:00 -
[311]
Originally by: Marcus Caspius The Dramiel is x5 or x6 the price than a regular t2 Frig and you have to train two ship skills to fly it. Off course is going to be proportionately more powerful.
I hate it when people just wanna nerf stuff.
Grow some b@ll$, train up some skills, stop being such a cheapskate and get your own Dramiel.
How do you beat a Dramiel? Buy and fly a Dramiel...
The Daredevil and the Cruor are more expensive that the Dramiel but each have different weaknesses and don't completely overshadow every other single frigate in the game except for the Imperial Navy Slicer.
Your end quote is why the Dramiel is the problem and why it needs to be nerfed. ---
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Spaceship Persona Ogeko
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Posted - 2011.08.06 05:33:00 -
[312]
As someone who flies the Oneiros on a regular basis some love to this ship would be awesome.
I really do not agree with making it more mobile (faster). It is an armor ship and should not be able to keep up with the Scim.
I do believe it should have a lower sig radius though and its slot layout revisted.
The TL bonus is very handy. I don't think that it needs a boost.
It will never be a popular ship.
Small(er) groups tend to kite and favour mobility therefore shield tank.
Larger groups tend to use armor and fight larger groups. Therefore chained cap will always be superior to keep max reps for max amount of time.
tl;dr - drop a mid for a low, reduce sig radius = fixed.
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Elder Ozzian
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Posted - 2011.08.08 19:11:00 -
[313]
First: I know that Sansha suxx; They cannot even take over the universe...
I was browsing the market and checking out the pirate-faction frigates and noticed something. Who would fly a succubus? I haven't seen anyone flying it, and a quick calculation (which maybe wrong) tells me that even retribution may be better (quality>price atleast). So, tell me; Why should i buy succubus instead of any other faction frigate / t2 frigate?
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.09 12:07:00 -
[314]
Quote: So, tell me; Why should i buy succubus instead of any other faction frigate / t2 frigate?
You shouldn't. It has no particular "gimick" that the other factions do (e.g. 90% webs, high speed, etc.), and its stats are only around assault frigate level.
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Christopher Azaph
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Posted - 2011.08.10 18:40:00 -
[315]
Why would you mess with the dramiel. I dont fly the ship. But, I can tell you that it gets hate because of people having a hard time killing it. Its a faction frig. It should stand out above the rest. I have seen both Cruors and Daredevils beast this ship. The align time not a big deal.... But, taking away the drams spead is taking away its strength. You have a 100 mil+ ship when all fit. You nerf it and you make it 100mil ship that no one flys.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.10 19:47:00 -
[316]
Quote: It should stand out above the rest.
The Succubus, Worm, Cruor and Daredevil are faction frigates as well. Note the lack of nerf threads for them.
Quote: I have seen both Cruors and Daredevils beast this ship.
Have you seen Cruors and Daredevils with the same survivability and insane versatility of a Dramiel? I think not.
Quote: You nerf it and you make it 100mil ship that no one flys.
Nope, you make it a 100mil ship that is good without being godmode in the hands of a half decent pilot. Same principle as the nano nerf back in QR.
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Andy Landen
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.11 00:17:00 -
[317]
Edited by: Andy Landen on 11/08/2011 00:25:46
Originally by: Nyarlothotep
Originally by: Lin-Young Borovskova Logistics: in addition of Warp speed revisit, some bonus or base stats rework so that the Oneiros becomes on pair with his Amarrian counterpart?
With maxed skills do you think that ships logistics dedicated, are not slightly fragile and too much cap consuming?
Besides the warp speed (which I never really noticed tbh), I think the Oneiros and Scimitar Tracking Link efficiency should be bumped up to 15%. I wish Defenders worked and the Oneiros had some launcher spots. And add another utility high slot...
I don't believe cap and fragility are an issue. I think the logistics ships are pretty balanced in combat. Spider tank solves the fragility issue. Cap boosters, fitting less reps, or not just keeping them running constantly solves most cap issues without making the ship too good.
Logistics ships are my favorite ship to fly. Nearly maxed out all skills that effect my Oneiros and Basilisk.
No one uses remote tracking links on the Oneiros or scimi. Furthermore, with good skills, a Basi or Guardian can easily fit and power 5 Lg RR with a single Lg Energy Transfer bounce between them. I think that with similarly good skills an Oneiros or Scimi should be able to fit and power 5 Lg RR with 5 high slots and enough PG and CPU to support them as well. Given that the Basi and Guardian can free many med and low slots from cap generation with their cap bouncing for resists, buffer, and ECCM/SB modules, the Oneiros/Scimi still fall behind their counterparts even with my proposed buff. If the tracking link bonus was ever made useful enough, that would actually add to their problem by lowering the number of available med slots from much needed cap generation, let alone the issues of resists, buffer, or ECCM/SB.
I couldn't agree more with Block Horizon:
Quote: Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16 Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP. Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles. I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
On Super caps (I fly thanatos), I recommend Cap Energy neutralizer, reduction of bomber dps, increase in carrier drones per carrier level to 2 per level to more similarly match the supercarrier bonus. Also, trade thanatos shield RR bonus for a 10% dps and hp drone bonus to all drones, similar to the dominix and ishtar. After all, unlike Minmatar, Gallente almost exclusively armor tank (not shield), and the gallente carrier is a pure drone boat like the domi. Such a trade seems to fit quite well with the traditional Gallente drone boat role.
edit: Need to do something about the super being immune to being pointed. Like, get rid of it. At the very least, set the super's warp core stability to 10 so that 11 points or a HIC's infinite point (especially useful in low sec) holds the super. |
Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.08.11 15:51:00 -
[318]
Two months and counting to change the warp speed of logis. Seriously, what's going on over there?
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2011.08.11 16:41:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Ravcharas Two months and counting to change the warp speed of logis. Seriously, what's going on over there?
CCP Tallest is currently decomposing in my cargohold. Sorry.
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clone667
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Posted - 2011.08.11 17:05:00 -
[320]
I also think that other frigates, tech 1 and others should be improved in order to compete with the Dram, and not nerf such a great frigate.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.11 22:18:00 -
[321]
Originally by: clone667 I also think that other frigates, tech 1 and others should be improved in order to compete with the Dram, and not nerf such a great frigate.
Hmmm, let's think about what's easier and less potentially damaging to the game: - Nerfing one ludicrously overpowered ship - Buffing 30 others
If you can't work out which is the more sensible one, I honestly feel sorry for you.
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Nyla Skin
Unknown Soldiers B O R G
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Posted - 2011.08.12 10:39:00 -
[322]
Devs shouldnt do whats easy, they should do whats right.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:43:00 -
[323]
Originally by: Nyla Skin Devs shouldnt do whats easy, they should do whats right.
What about when easy and right are the same thing? Nerf the Dramiel.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2011.08.14 03:48:00 -
[324]
Originally by: Andy Landen
My logistics proposal: Let's just make logistics simply little carriers. Helps in training for the roles.
Basi and Scimi: Bonus Shield resists (+5%). Bonus Shield RR and Energy transfer cap activation amount (-15%) and range (+150%). CPU need for shield transporter (-50%) and PG for Energy transfer (-50%).
Guardian and Oneiros: Bonus armor resists (+5%). Bonus Armor RR and Energy transfer cap activation amount (-15%) and range (+150%). PG need for Armor RR (-65%) and PG for Energy transfer (-50%).
All logi: Drone Bay 100 and bandwidth 50. Sensor strength 28. 6 High slots. Reduce PG and CPU for respective RR modules as current. Adapt CPU and PG of each to enable 5 lg respective RR and 1 lg Energy to be fit with logistics 5.
Logistics are already overpowered and are to be fixed at some point. There's no need whatsoever to promote even wider use of them. ---
Originally by: CCP Greyscale Is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?
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Larla Rosethorn
Minmatar Renegade Pleasure Androids PURgE Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.15 07:15:00 -
[325]
Please fix Nidhoggur.
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Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.08.15 14:54:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Larla Rosethorn Please fix Nidhoggur.
Please do something. Anything.
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Mark It Zero
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Posted - 2011.08.16 18:35:00 -
[327]
How about ship balancing Gallente and hybrid weapons?
Eve-kill top 20 pvp ships.... 0 gallente Eve-kill top 20 weapon types.... 2 gallente (17 and 20)
http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20
Meanwhile keep working on that warp speed for logis.
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Tza Omi
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Posted - 2011.08.16 20:32:00 -
[328]
Interceptors should be the fastest ships in the game, its their niche. Dramiels suck
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Rock Stripper
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Posted - 2011.08.16 23:40:00 -
[329]
Funny you keep killing fun. I have flown ever ship in eve between my accounts and I can honestly say the dramiel is one of the more fun ships to fly. I can see a crap load of other thing besides the dramiel that need to be balanced of fixed.
1. yes the warp speed of logistics needs to be fixed
2. The hel bonuses need to be changed because they are stupid. Who uses a super carrier as repping ship !!!!!
3. Hybrids defiantly need a buff of some kind thats no one uses them.
4. Something needs to be done about sc fleets , the only thing that counters them is a sc fleet so this kills player interactions with the hostile fleet because not everyone owns a super.
5. Get rid of station 3 timers all together.If they take it today we can take it right back tomorrow . This makes for constant pew pew and gives the little guy a chance to actually conquer a station. It would also make larger alliances stretch the assets further to guard regions or areas.They wouldnt have almost a week to get prepared for the fight. There by weakening them and making them easier targets for smaller aliances to compete if they take to much space.
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Slimy Worm
The Skunkworks
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Posted - 2011.08.16 23:55:00 -
[330]
Edited by: Slimy Worm on 16/08/2011 23:55:52 The Dramiel shouldn't be able to dual prop and fit a Medium Shield Extender at the same time, even if its speed is lowered. It shouldn't be able to out-tank and out-gank and Ishkur that has it webbed and scrammed. Take out some powergrid. ---------------
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PhantomOf Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.18 04:23:00 -
[331]
Edited by: PhantomOf Caldari on 18/08/2011 04:24:36
Dramiel is just fine.
Why this ship bother you devs some much now with no reason? Shouldnt you be sitting and design new features, ships for eve instead of wasting your time nerfing, boosting existing ships and create needless contraversy?
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Ding Charvez
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Posted - 2011.08.18 09:51:00 -
[332]
Edited by: Ding Charvez on 18/08/2011 09:51:54
Originally by: PhantomOf Caldari
Dramiel is just fine.
How can you kill a dramiel with a friget-class or a destroyer-class ship?
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Shasz
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2011.08.18 12:33:00 -
[333]
I like the proposed changes to the Dramiel in the first post. Being far and away the fastest and most nimble ship, AND having great firepower, AND 3 drones, AND being pretty easy to shield buffer was a bit much.
I loved flying it when I was in lowsec, but it felt a bit like cheating it was such a good ship.
I'm also glad to hear you're looking into gallente hulls and blasters SoonÖ. |
Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.18 15:37:00 -
[334]
Quote: Why this ship bother you devs some much now with no reason?
Where have you been? There have been calls for the Dramiel in particular and Angel ships in general to be nerfed almost immediately after the buff hit.
Quote: Shouldnt you be sitting and design new features, ships for eve instead of wasting your time nerfing, boosting existing ships and create needless contraversy?
Fix existing broken stuff first, then add new ships. If you really think nerfing and buffing is a waste of time then you really are a tool.
Quote: How can you kill a dramiel with a friget-class or a destroyer-class ship?
It's easy - if the Dramiel pilot is a complete idiot.
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Fastest Dealer
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Posted - 2011.08.19 09:18:00 -
[335]
Edited by: Fastest Dealer on 19/08/2011 09:20:22 Edited by: Fastest Dealer on 19/08/2011 09:19:10 Why Oneiros and Guardian have equal role bonus to 'power need for Remote Armor Repair Systems' ? and in Guardian case they also have 'power need for Energy Transfer Arrays'. And Guardian have smaller signature, better armor, larger capacitor... than Oneiros.
I think it is not fair. |
Rhinanna
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.19 17:09:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Ding Charvez Edited by: Ding Charvez on 18/08/2011 09:51:54
Originally by: PhantomOf Caldari
Dramiel is just fine.
How can you kill a dramiel with a friget-class or a destroyer-class ship?
Like this:
http://www.eve-volt.net/kb/?a=kill_related&kll_id=6219
1 'cane vs curse + sabre + 3 dramiels.
Cane died but took sabre and 2 dramiels with it ;)
I love my 'cane ;) Ok not a frig or a destroyer but still ;)
Ok I'm just showing off, Dramiel is way overpowered ;)
Its basically the best interceptor and best AF at the same time which is just ******ed. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Tal Rann
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Posted - 2011.08.20 15:31:00 -
[337]
So the pvp lobby thinks Dramiels are too fast for them to pew pew-what small heads and thick necks they all must have. And for CCP to listen to such whiners? Natch. And then we wonder why people are quitting Eve...
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Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
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Posted - 2011.08.20 22:18:00 -
[338]
Originally by: PhantomOf Caldari Edited by: PhantomOf Caldari on 18/08/2011 04:24:36
Dramiel is just fine.
Why this ship bother you devs some much now with no reason? Shouldnt you be sitting and design new features, ships for eve instead of wasting your time nerfing, boosting existing ships and create needless contraversy?
Because it's more reasonable to nerf one ridiculously overpowered ship than it is to try and boost every other ship in the game to compensate. Also, there's the matter of 'power creep'.
Imbecile.
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A'isha Kuvakei
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Posted - 2011.08.21 14:34:00 -
[339]
The 5% bonus to Warp Scrambler interceptors (i.e Maledic, Raptor, Ares) really need looking at, so underpowered compared to other advance/faction frig brothers and sisters.
Either Alittle: speed/lock or Buffer there tanks.
This will mix up the field abit!!
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.21 16:43:00 -
[340]
Quote: The 5% bonus to Warp Scrambler interceptors (i.e Maledic, Raptor, Ares) really need looking at, so underpowered compared to other advance/faction frig brothers and sisters.
Umm, what? Tackle inties do their job just fine. High speed, scan res and point range put them well above other T2 frigates for the role. (Yes, even the Raptor.)
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Fifth Dimension
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Posted - 2011.08.21 18:54:00 -
[341]
I beleive the Deimos could use to be improved a little. It has one of the nastiest damage outlays of all hacs in game but it can support no tank. Possibly take a little of its dps away and another medium slot so it could support and active tank instead of limiting the ship to only a passive armor tank. That is my thoughts on the re-balancing of ships.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.21 19:17:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Fifth Dimension I beleive the Deimos could use to be improved a little. It has one of the nastiest damage outlays of all hacs in game but it can support no tank. Possibly take a little of its dps away and another medium slot so it could support and active tank instead of limiting the ship to only a passive armor tank. That is my thoughts on the re-balancing of ships.
Resulting in exactly the same thing we have now: an overpriced Brutix.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Divine Power. Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.22 06:11:00 -
[343]
What about taking away the Deimos' 5% bonus to MWD capacitor per level and replace it with a -15% size penalty of MWD sig radius, like an interceptor? Or would that be stepping on T3? |
fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.08.22 06:38:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza What about taking away the Deimos' 5% bonus to MWD capacitor per level and replace it with a -15% size penalty of MWD sig radius, like an interceptor? Or would that be stepping on T3?
i was thinking more remove the falloff bonus and replace it with a 5% reduction in mass per level... that way with a mwd on you will go faster and be more agile...
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.22 10:21:00 -
[345]
Originally by: fukier
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza What about taking away the Deimos' 5% bonus to MWD capacitor per level and replace it with a -15% size penalty of MWD sig radius, like an interceptor? Or would that be stepping on T3?
i was thinking more remove the falloff bonus and replace it with a 5% reduction in mass per level... that way with a mwd on you will go faster and be more agile...
Right up until you get into blaster range, at which point you're scrammed, webbed and no more mobile than a Brutix. Reason for spending double the money on a Diemost is now gone.
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.08.22 17:35:00 -
[346]
Edited by: fukier on 22/08/2011 17:37:05
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Originally by: fukier
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza What about taking away the Deimos' 5% bonus to MWD capacitor per level and replace it with a -15% size penalty of MWD sig radius, like an interceptor? Or would that be stepping on T3?
i was thinking more remove the falloff bonus and replace it with a 5% reduction in mass per level... that way with a mwd on you will go faster and be more agile...
Right up until you get into blaster range, at which point you're scrammed, webbed and no more mobile than a Brutix. Reason for spending double the money on a Diemost is now gone.
meh its not soo bad if he is scarmed too... i dont care if i am scramed as long as i am in range with my blasters... Plus my 5 med ecm 600's will take care of that lock in no time
plus the brutix is usually buffer tanked meaning it is really slow in comparison... The brutix will be kited the deimos will not be Plus most kiting ships only use 1 point and if you are getting scramed well then you are in blasters optimal range anyways...
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.22 18:32:00 -
[347]
Quote: meh its not soo bad if he is scarmed too...
The point being: the only reason to use a HAC over a BC is mobility. Fly into scram range and that's gone.
Quote: Plus my 5 med ecm 600's will take care of that lock in no time
If 5 EC-600s could fix problems that easily, we'd have a lot fewer gimpy ships. Also FYI: a Brutix can send out those as well.
Quote: The brutix will be kited the deimos will not be
Shield gank Brutix can still get to around the 1.6km/s mark with an overheat. And yeah, sure, a Diemost can get into range better - at which point your inferior tank and gank kicks in.
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.08.22 18:54:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote: meh its not soo bad if he is scarmed too...
The point being: the only reason to use a HAC over a BC is mobility. Fly into scram range and that's gone.
Quote: Plus my 5 med ecm 600's will take care of that lock in no time
If 5 EC-600s could fix problems that easily, we'd have a lot fewer gimpy ships. Also FYI: a Brutix can send out those as well.
Quote: The brutix will be kited the deimos will not be
Shield gank Brutix can still get to around the 1.6km/s mark with an overheat. And yeah, sure, a Diemost can get into range better - at which point your inferior tank and gank kicks in.
so then whats the solution? cut a highslot for a mid slot so you can either duel prop or shield tank the thing?
i still would like the falloff bonus to be cut and made into the base stats of the guns and replaced with a mass reduction bonus to make the "mobility" bonus better...
if ccp fixed railguns by increasing thier dps... i would fly a deimos like a vega (specially if they added a 4th mid slot)...
Personally if rail guns did not suck so hard the deimos would be a much better ship...
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.08.22 18:59:00 -
[349]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote: meh its not soo bad if he is scarmed too...
The point being: the only reason to use a HAC over a BC is mobility. Fly into scram range and that's gone.
Quote: Plus my 5 med ecm 600's will take care of that lock in no time
If 5 EC-600s could fix problems that easily, we'd have a lot fewer gimpy ships. Also FYI: a Brutix can send out those as well.
Quote: The brutix will be kited the deimos will not be
Shield gank Brutix can still get to around the 1.6km/s mark with an overheat. And yeah, sure, a Diemost can get into range better - at which point your inferior tank and gank kicks in.
so then whats the solution? cut a highslot for a mid slot so you can either duel prop or shield tank the thing?
i still would like the falloff bonus to be cut and made into the base stats of the guns and replaced with a mass reduction bonus to make the "mobility" bonus better...
if ccp fixed railguns by increasing thier dps... i would fly a deimos like a vega (specially if they added a 4th mid slot)...
Personally if rail guns did not suck so hard the deimos would be a much better ship...
so then whats the solution? cut a highslot for a mid slot so you can either duel prop or shield tank the thing?
i still would like the falloff bonus to be cut and made into the base stats of the guns and replaced with a mass reduction bonus to make the "mobility" bonus better...
if ccp fixed railguns by increasing thier dps... i would fly a deimos like a vega (specially if they added a 4th mid slot)...
Personally if rail guns did not suck so hard the deimos would be a much better ship...
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SGT FUNYOUN
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.22 20:20:00 -
[350]
I have one for you... the dramiel and Logi "fixes" seem alright... but what about Gallente ships???
I have noticed that Gallente ships are either built mainly as Blaster boats, which have to get close to do their business; or they are drone boats which have very little drone capabilities.
Gallente Ships need to be faster and more agile overall. The ones built around the blaster philosophy in particular. Even readjust a few of them to be used with rails better; or even make a new model of each variety that are really well suited to use Rails. The Gallente have Rail guns which IMO are actually superior to Arty when it comes to dealing damage at a high rate of fire at distance. Yes they are shorter distance than Arty but they give more damage at that reduced range. The blaster ships however are ALL WAAAAY too slow and clunky.
Secondly, the drone boats... WTF man.
Gallente is the Hybrids and Drones race. While the Hybrid guns are formidable in the right situation, drones are supposed to be the bread and butter of the Gallentean Fighter. Like missles and torpedoes for Caldari, Arty and Autocannons for Minmatar, and Lasers and Masers for Amarr. The Gallente Drone capabilities need a boost.
I am thinking give the Gallente ships the ability to carry AND ACTIVELY FLY 1-2 more drones than they can right now and boost their drone control range by around 10 - 20km. MINUS the Carriers and Super Carriers of course... those are already powerful enough. Think about it. Even with Heavy and Sentry drones, each drone only hits for around 80 - 180 HP per volley. On a ship like the Dominix, it needs to be carrying AND FLYING at least 7 drones just to make a worth while impact, because if you try to fit rails on it you may not even have enough CAP to keep your armor long enough to survive. You are almost forced to fit blasters onto it. And then what is the point of the drones if I still have to get super close to my target? By the time I get there my Armor is shot to ribbons and my CAP is nearly gone. A Drone boat is supposed to be able to fight from long range... kinda the point of sending a drone to do your dirty work for yah.
The Domi is just one example. But lets face it; it needs a couple more drones, as do the rest of the Gallentean Ships. As well as a MAJOR speed and agility boost to the "blaster" boats. How can I fight with a blaster fit in a ship that flies like a washing machine? Yargh. I be SGT Funyoun. King of the Pirates!!! |
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E man Industries
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Posted - 2011.08.23 16:42:00 -
[351]
Just relized the frieghter speed bonus is pointless with warp to 0.
Can we get an agility bonus? or warp speed bonus? ______ Hello WoW players. Look at your toon, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me, but if it wasn't simplistic pre scripted linear mono dimensional game you could look like me. I'm in a Paladin |
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
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Posted - 2011.08.25 22:33:00 -
[352]
Originally by: PhantomOf Caldari Edited by: PhantomOf Caldari on 18/08/2011 04:24:36
Dramiel is just fine.
Why this ship bother you devs some much now with no reason? Shouldnt you be sitting and design new features, ships for eve instead of wasting your time nerfing, boosting existing ships and create needless contraversy?
Lets have nullsec be world of supers forever, lol. And the dramiel be the only faction frig worth it's salt. While at it keep failguns fail and gallente ships beyond drone boats have AIDS. CCP has enough problem of not changing anything for years.... don't encourage it.
New stuff looks better for glitter to catch new people, but fixing the old retains players.
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Larton Dretta
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Posted - 2011.08.27 06:04:00 -
[353]
Skipping a fiew ships like the Moa, Maller or the Omen which need major overhauling, most of the ships just require minor tweeks to make them equal and i think what you're trying to do with the Dramiel is a step in the right direction.
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Zeerover
Wolfsbrigade
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Posted - 2011.08.27 19:21:00 -
[354]
In my opinion the Dramiel balancing should focus on keeping the primary strength of the ship (it's speed and agility), while reducing the numerous secondary strengths of the ship (capless dps, huge dronebay, good ehp, good slot layout, good fitting possibilities).
It could be done by removing the drone bay completely while keeping the rest of the stats.
This would result in a ship that still is the fastest and most agile ship, but isn't this and a lot of other things as well.
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Larla Rosethorn
Minmatar Renegade Pleasure Androids
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Posted - 2011.08.28 00:51:00 -
[355]
Please rebalance Nidhoggur and shield capital fleets in general.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1548984
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Ten Dollars
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Posted - 2011.08.29 01:05:00 -
[356]
This is typical of someone who is given power to do something. You are overdoing it. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.
FPS games have this problem. They make a great game, then poeple complain because they cant kill someone with a class that isnt good at killing it.
The FPS game company ends up making all the soldier classes equal, completely taking all fun out of the game trying to make all classes equal. Some ships should always be better than others. Quit trying to overthink this and leave them alone.
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steave435
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.29 09:17:00 -
[357]
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza What about taking away the Deimos' 5% bonus to MWD capacitor per level and replace it with a -15% size penalty of MWD sig radius, like an interceptor? Or would that be stepping on T3?
I'd prefer a 5%/level (MWD?) speed bonus, but that's partly because I believe the whole Minmatar/Gallente design idea is flawed. The Minmatar have great speed and the ability to control range, combined with guns that work at very varying ranged. The Gallente on the other hand are slow armor tankers that can't control range, combined with weapons that require very specific ranges, either huge range for kiting with rails, or point blank for rushing in with blasters. That causes Minmatar to border on overpowered while Gallente suck. However, if that was inversed and the Minmatar got hybrids while Gallente uses projectiles, you'd have 2 races that work fine. The Minmatar would have great speed so that they can either rush in fast and get in range with blasters, or they're so fast others have a hard time catching up and thus they can kite with rails. The Gallente would still be pretty slow and have to make do with the range the opponent chose most of them time, but their projectile guns. especially autocannons, were designed to work at any range, so that's not a problem. Solving that though would be very difficult now. Just swapping hybrid bonuses for projectiles and vice versa wouldn't work due to PG and CPU issues in addition to forcing everyone flying either race to train the other races guns, and trying to change the stats of both gun types would probably result in balance issues anyway while the proper numbers are worked out. Long term though, I can't see any other way to fix the core issues that hybrids have without turning them into either projectiles or lasers, and minmatar are the only ones that could make the hybrids work.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.29 11:31:00 -
[358]
Quote: FPS games have this problem. They make a great game, then poeple complain because they cant kill someone with a class that isnt good at killing it. The FPS game company ends up making all the soldier classes equal, completely taking all fun out of the game trying to make all classes equal.
What if this FPS of yours had a class that combined the best attributes of all the others? Don't think of it as nerfing, thinking of it as defining a nichT.
Quote: Some ships should always be better than others. Quit trying to overthink this and leave them alone.
Hmm, it would appear we have another simple person here that can't comprehend the difference between "better than" and "better than, at X role". I'll try to use short words so you can understand: Ship X being better than ship Y at role A: fine. Ship X being better than ship Y at every role: no. Nerf it.
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Trader 99
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Posted - 2011.08.29 13:43:00 -
[359]
Black Ops need looking at. The jump range needs to be increased. You need to get between about 3 and 6 jumps from target you want to hot drop,depending on how far the systems are apart. The fuel bay could be a bit bigger aswell but the jump range is the most annoying thing about black ops.
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Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:18:00 -
[360]
Not a word about ship balancing in the notes for the tomorrow's patch. So it'll be what, another two or three months before we see anything?
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Malken
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2011.08.31 20:23:00 -
[361]
the dramiel is a T1 faction frigate that outperforms T2 assault frigates at faster speeds then T2 interceptors.
need some tweaking tbh although i love flying mine around at 10k speeds sometimes :P
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Stan Durden
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Posted - 2011.08.31 20:54:00 -
[362]
The dramial does need a nurf, but I agree with some others that possibly the speed isn't the thing to nerf. Perhaps the dps, tank, or scan res would be good alternatives. I have not yet flown the Dram. I set my goal to max all skills related to it, and become more proficient at flying other less expensive ships before I fly it. I kinda figured CCP would nerf it just about the time I'm ready to fly it. But that is ok to me. I think it is obvious it is OP.
Other ships I hope were mentioned are the T1 ships, cruisers, destroyers and frigs. I personally like the balance of bc, bs atm though the harby could possibly do with a slight buff. The destroyer hull in general needs to be looked at I think. I think the signature radius is too large for the tank that can be reasonably mounted on them. They pop way too easy when under fire from anything but a handful of frigs. I would at least like to see them be able to get under the guns of BS a bit better.
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Acac Sunflyier
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.09.01 11:34:00 -
[363]
I think a lot of the issues with the dram will resolve with a hybrid fix. At least compared to the daredevil
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.09.01 12:48:00 -
[364]
Originally by: Acac Sunflyier I think a lot of the issues with the dram will resolve with a hybrid fix. At least compared to the daredevil
Umm, how? Frigate hybrids are fine, it's at medium and large that they become very meh and there's no problem with the Daredevil.
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Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2011.09.01 17:13:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Ten Dollars This is typical of someone who is given power to do something. You are overdoing it. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.
FPS games have this problem. They make a great game, then poeple complain because they cant kill someone with a class that isnt good at killing it.
The FPS game company ends up making all the soldier classes equal, completely taking all fun out of the game trying to make all classes equal. Some ships should always be better than others. Quit trying to overthink this and leave them alone.
Totally nothing wrong with a pyro with the HP of a soldier with the speed and double-jump of a scout under only the positive effects of Bonk! and Crit-a-Cola. |
Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.09.01 19:31:00 -
[366]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 01/09/2011 19:31:32
Quote: Totally nothing wrong with a pyro with the HP of a soldier with the speed and double-jump of a scout under only the positive effects of Bonk! and Crit-a-Cola.
Nicely put. The one who originally made the FPS analogy is an idiot though so I doubt they'd understand your point.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.09.02 12:24:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Ten Dollars This is typical of someone who is given power to do something. You are overdoing it. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.
FPS games have this problem. They make a great game, then poeple complain because they cant kill someone with a class that isnt good at killing it.
The FPS game company ends up making all the soldier classes equal, completely taking all fun out of the game trying to make all classes equal. Some ships should always be better than others. Quit trying to overthink this and leave them alone.
You're confusing inter-class balance with intra-class balance.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Divine Power. Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.09.04 19:01:00 -
[368]
Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 04/09/2011 19:01:47
oh, and buff everything amarr below a BC except the Magnate, Punisher and Arbitrator.
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Zyress
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Posted - 2011.09.08 19:13:00 -
[369]
I'd be satisfied with a nerf to its powergrid or CPU that makes Dual prop unfittable without some sort of sacrifice to DPS and Tank
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